The Armour Archive

Godric of Castlemont wrote:
Is it within the spirit of the rules to intentional "ground" an opponent? Can 4 run over 1 to ground them, with the intent to grounding them (rather than striking them)?

In melees, I think so. It seems every year at Pennsic there is always one relatively new shieldman in my unit who's usually tall and wide and a little frustrated at not being able to kill many people in the first battle or two. Then myself or someone else puts them on the outside edge of the bridge and teaches them how to use their shield to shovel people off the side and into the water to "drown." They suddenly rack up dozens of kills without swinging it makes their war and it's probably pretty period.

wellllll there is another option. the few times ive had someone grab my spear (and i rarely fight with one) that i wasnt able to simply jerk it out of their grasp i have pulled them towards me. usually they let go. however, i have had one or two occasions in which they didnt and ive spun myself around. in both cases that i can think of they didnt let go until i bent over taking them off their feet before being dumped.

i had one guy get testy about it and claim i was grappling. i reminded him that he was the one holding on. i think he might have been upset because he got moved into position and as he was getting lifted i think he got hit a few times.

regards
logan

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Godric - you are right!

I forgot about spear snatching! Totally legal. You can also grab shields with a gauntlet too! Obviously "intent" is somewhat irrevelent there. Since if you grab my spear I have 3 options:

1) Let go (possibly involuntarily)
2) Pull harder than you and rip it out of your hand
3) Fall over (with concomitant chance of DDoG.

It's not really on the "grabber" to declare his intent to say.

Some people find this rude (not as rude as being shot with an arrow, at least on average).

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Godric - you are right!

You can also grab shields with a gauntlet too!

Um.....not here you can't.

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:

Doorman wrote:

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:It's actually irrelevant to western kingdoms since we have Declared Dead on the Ground. If anyone requires more than 2-3 people you can just run him over. The rule is only really applicable to 'legged' opponents anyway.

People don't usually last long enough to count to 4.

Wow...just

I wish I could use this in Atlantia. LOL. Go to a melee. spend the entire day pancaking people. Spend the night at the fire "I 'killed' 47 people today! and I only swung my sword twice!"

People from Atlantia (and sometimes the East) always say this. And they never come out to Estrella and actually try it. Keep in mind that it's at least a 2 step drill... the person has to be pancaked and THEN declared dead... which usually means they have to be isolated or overrun and surrounded.

Ah, I did not know it was a two step process. I was thinking it was just knock someone down and BOOM they are dead. I was also half joking about it. I know I might get a good run and flatten 6 or 7 people but then someone as big as me, or just really strong, would step up and stop my romp through the meadow.

dukelogan wrote:i had one guy get testy about it and claim i was grappling. i reminded him that he was the one holding on. i think he might have been upset because he got moved into position and as he was getting lifted i think he got hit a few times.

regards
logan

He got HIT a few times in an armored combat sport??

What is this game coming to?

dukelogan wrote:wellllll there is another option. the few times ive had someone grab my spear (and i rarely fight with one) that i wasnt able to simply jerk it out of their grasp i have pulled them towards me. usually they let go. however, i have had one or two occasions in which they didnt and ive spun myself around. in both cases that i can think of they didnt let go until i bent over taking them off their feet before being dumped.

i had one guy get testy about it and claim i was grappling. i reminded him that he was the one holding on. i think he might have been upset because he got moved into position and as he was getting lifted i think he got hit a few times.

regards
logan

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Godric - you are right!

I forgot about spear snatching! Totally legal. You can also grab shields with a gauntlet too! Obviously "intent" is somewhat irrevelent there. Since if you grab my spear I have 3 options:

1) Let go (possibly involuntarily)
2) Pull harder than you and rip it out of your hand
3) Fall over (with concomitant chance of DDoG.

It's not really on the "grabber" to declare his intent to say.

Some people find this rude (not as rude as being shot with an arrow, at least on average).

how can you be grappling when he grabbed the business end of your spear? wtf?? I'm not a fan of tug-o-war with spears, but if I can yank you out of position so my spear buddy (always a good idea to fight spear next to another spear, or on the other side of a decent shieldman) can stick you in the gutty-works I will. I ain't hangin' on like a monkey with his fist in the jar though, it just opens me up to being gutted myself.

In practice, he "4 on 1" rule is just a version of the "Don't be a douche" rule.

It is meant to stop 6 guys from surrounding someone and repeatedly pummeling him before he even gets a chance to fall down or call dead.

If 8 guys go running after Duke X, no one is going to stop it, for a few reasons:
-Duke X can take care of himself
-Those 8 will always be strung out, and likely never have more than 3-4 within weapons range at any one time. (The rule is about hitting the guy, not chasing him)

Likewise, if 1 person charges into a crowd, I have never seen anyone have an issue when 5-6 folks take him out. I look at it as the difference between a '4 on 1' rule, and a '1 on 4' rule. If you choose the throw yourself into the fire, no one is going to stop you from getting a bit burnt.

Don't think of the rule as a matter for lawyers and nit picking, it is more about having something less subjective than 'Don't be a douche'.

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Godric - you are right!

I forgot about spear snatching! Totally legal. You can also grab shields with a gauntlet too!

Hmmm..... Kinda sounds fun, I think I may need to try some knife fighting wish some serious shield grabbing action at my next practice. Maybe in training for some war fighting?

Godric of Castlemont wrote:

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Godric - you are right!

I forgot about spear snatching! Totally legal. You can also grab shields with a gauntlet too!

Hmmm..... Kinda sounds fun, I think I may need to try some knife fighting wish some serious shield grabbing action at my next practice. Maybe in training for some war fighting?

If you get your fingers broke don't come crying to me.

I don't see how one can interpret the rules to allow grabbing of weapon hafts and not grabbing of shields. I should FURTHER point out that I feel that the Society rules are totally ambiguous on whether or not this is legal, but I don't see how you can draw the line between hafts and shields here.

I should say even where it's "allowed" it's pretty rare because it's an excellent way to get your hand broken. I guess if we all had bomb-proof Grettr gauntlets we would do it all the time!

One much safer move is to use your basket hilt to hook shields - this is a good way of dealing with castle "tetsudoes" (since typically no one is swinging at you anyway)

On a re-examination of the rules,

Sec. III, Part B, rule 12:

Grasping an opponent's person, shield, or weapon's striking surface is prohibited.

end.

To me that would allow for an open hand on a shield to manipulate the shield.

BUT

Sec. IV, Part D:

However, in the West Kingdom, a fighter may not place their shield on any part of their opponent’s body, nor may they use any part of their body to manipulate their opponent’s shield.

end.

That would seem to preclude not only hand on shield tactics but body on shield tactics (crashing into a shield with your body during a charge). Broken fingers aside the basket hilt seems to be an OK grasping location as well as the haft of a spear or polearm. Darn, there goes my knife idea.

Boy, wrong twice in one thread!

And admitting it! That will probably break the internet, but serio*(#&(kjlkj3991%P$*#($%&*)))))

---NO CARRIER---

Sec. IV, Part D:

However, in the West Kingdom, a fighter may not place their shield on any part of their opponent’s body, nor may they use any part of their body to manipulate their opponent’s shield.

Interesting. I think Artus put that in there when he was KEM a few years ago. I am pretty sure he was thinking about one-on-one fighting, not melee engagements, but I'll ask him.

Godric of Castlemont wrote:
To me that would allow for an open hand on a shield to manipulate the shield.

I've always used an elbow.

I'd have to agree with Oscad.

If there is a 4 on 1 rule, it seems to be unenforced, or used at the marshals discretion or something. I'd say about 50% of the time at Pennsic, and even big melee events I'm fighting a group of folks, and it is more than 4.
Like engagement. I'd say about 35-45% of my deaths are from folks doing drive by's at Pennsic. Or coming from behind from points unknown. I have no idea if these people have, don't have, or even worry about the mythical "engagement".

Frankly, I don't care about either happening to me. In fact, I take all that stuff because I should anyway because it's my fault I got hit. I don't mind getting ganked by 12 or 112 guys or if someone gets behind me and stabs me back. To me, I should be aware, and able to defend at all times. Then again, I am wargaming, not playing a sport. So your opinion may differ on the matter.

Leo Medii wrote:I'd have to agree with Oscad.

If there is a 4 on 1 rule, it seems to be unenforced, or used at the marshals discretion or something. I'd say about 50% of the time at Pennsic, and even big melee events I'm fighting a group of folks, and it is more than 4.
Like engagement. I'd say about 35-45% of my deaths are from folks doing drive by's at Pennsic. Or coming from behind from points unknown. I have no idea if these people have, don't have, or even worry about the mythical "engagement".

Frankly, I don't care about either happening to me. In fact, I take all that stuff because I should anyway because it's my fault I got hit. I don't mind getting ganked by 12 or 112 guys or if someone gets behind me and stabs me back. To me, I should be aware, and able to defend at all times. Then again, I am wargaming, not playing a sport. So your opinion may differ on the matter.

Leo, I am so sorry we didn't get to fight this year at Pennsic. I do hope to make it up to you this coming year.

regards
ThorvaldR