The Armour Archive

I have onlye been fighting for about a year and a half, i am also a highschool student making little more than minimum wage, i have absolutly not plastic or blatently oop material accept for my lamellar (it is aluminum). I would love to see this law come into place in Ealdormere the entire SCA needs it. as for camps :

why not make it a requirement that period tents be placed along the perimeter/edge of roads, and if their are now pavillions in the encampment then the encampment should be in the corner or something. Also the tents shouldn't be enforced on only weekend camping events on account of the work it takes for a pavillion they just arn't worth it for just a weekend.

we are currently working that all out. i doubt it will be the marshals that do it as most of them cant do their jobs properly anyway (sorry, another rant). so im not sure. we have something going into policy regarding those that meet the 'letter' of the law but intentionally violate the spirit of it. they will be denied participation and have their fighting authorization yanked until their appeal can be heard.

overall though most atlantians are already in compliance. i only saw a few glaring problems last weekend that could be easily fixed. i, in fact, am in violation of the footwear part as i wear cleats. i will have those covered, hopefully, by pennsic.

most of atlantia are gung-ho about this. most of us just needed the threat of not being able to play to get us off our lazy read ends and fix things (ive been wanting to fix my cleats for over a year but have just been slack). so i dont foresee any real problems.

the far away and remote groups will take some work for sure but i have spies everywhere........

regards
logan

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Jamie:
<B>Duke Logan- I am interested in how this law is to be administered. Is it the responsibility of the marshallate to enforce this or the seneschallate? Are there consequences beyond being denied access to the lists? Are there penalties for repeat offenders? What happens to responsible parties that allow exposed plastic on the field anyway?

I would be interested in seeing over the long haul if Atlantia really picks this up or if it is something done only in the Kings presence while the far off shires and baronies continue as they always have.

One of the things that I have seen is that there are groups that have as a basic tenet the idea of being period in appearance. When new people join they are imbued with that idea and attempts to slide by otherwise are met with just enough social pressure to make them think that they are doing something wrong. Soon it is second nature to "be period".

Other groups seem to have squelched the social pressure bit and allowed anything at all. I think that the rapid growth of the SCA in the 80's overwhelmed the capacity of many groups to socially police their own and now sterner measures are deemed necessary. Please keep us informed.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by greenshield:
<B>Otto.

One question. Do you guys allow alluminium shields? All the alluminium shields I have seen can Easily slide between the bars of any helm, esp. helms with vertical bars. Only rarely do you see hose or rubber of sufficient diameter on those types of shields.

As for covering the edges I use a 1" strip of car door molding(sticky back to keep it in place) then cover that with raw hide. Works fine, last a long time and is very period.

As far as this new set of rules I believe they are long over due. As a member of a society that strives to recreate the 'best aspects' of the middle ages it would seem only common sence that one would know they are supposed to dress the part.

I for one applaude the act and would back similar ones in Meridies. As it stands we are already cracking down on plastic on the field.

Camric</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, i do use an aluminum shield, but in my case i am on of those people that do have a large enough hose around the edge to keep it out of bargrills. I used a piece of 1 1/2-2" diameter heater hose, split down one side and pulled over the edge of the shield, then tied down all the way around. My shield itself is covered with canvas, but the hose is so huge that it just looks silly if i try and cover it the same way. I've tried several ways to disguise it and so far painting it the same color as my primary charges has been the least obvious. Ideally i'd prefer to just edge the whole thing with 12oz leather and leave it at that, but i doubt it would pass inspection most places.

Edit- Please understand, i agree completely with Atlantia's new policies and im not complaining about them. Rather, im trying to figure out how to bring certain items of my kit into compliance since im hoping to attend a few events in Atlantia next summer(im in the Outlands). I know im not required to meet their standards as a visitor, but as a visitor i feel i should have enough consideration to at least try to meet them so i don't detract from anyone elses experience.

------------------
Bruce S.

[This message has been edited by Otto von Aachen (edited 07-03-2003).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dukelogan:
i cant stand the sight of people in blue jeans and sneakers sitting around under their cheap little plastic pop up day shade in their nylon coleman chair with their feet propped up on a cooler. its supposed to be about the middle ages not a beach party. the sca has accepted this sort of lazy behavior for too long and it makes us a joke among the living history community.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't care much for them either. I don't use 'sports armor', and I try to hide what inauthentic bits that are required for SCA combat (such as the sidewalls and grill on my helmet). Here's the problem, though: "the sca has accepted this sort of lazy behavior for" as long as the SCA has been around. For some people, it is "a beach party", and those people have been a part of the society since the Berkeley backyard affair.

The SCA is not defined by its charter, loosely worded though that may be. The SCA is the sum total of its traditions and the character of its members. Its all well and good to encourage members toward authenticity, but to legislate it flies in the face of the society's inherent incongruity and has the appearance of a few who are in power trying to dictate the standards to the masses.

I know - we are structured as a monarchy. "The King's word is law." However, we are in reality more than that. We are a voluntary congregation. Some people like the beach party, some people don't mind the beach party, and others tolerate the beach party in the name of diversity and freedom of choice. I suspect that collection of factions make up a very large portion of the SCA, perhaps collectively larger than the factions that would push for compulsary authenticity.

Under the currently very loose standards of the society's charter, and given the history and character of the the society itself, I can see how those opposed to your suggested changes would balk. The society has not "accepted this sort of lazy behavior". Rather, this is as the society has always been. Your legislation does not attempt to bring the society back on track so much as redirect it down a path you would like to see it go.

Good luck with your experiment. It will be interesting to see how things develop.

I fail to understand why people think that this is going to cause a great upheavel. People will rise to an occassion and adapt when neccessary, if they don't and say "F' it I quit!" They probably where not contributing much to begin with.
Did the SCA have the exact same weapons and armour standards now as in AS 2? Doubt it. Was there huge fallouts when the weapons and armour safety standards were updated? Doubt it.
Is the current King of Atlantia not in compliance with the soon to be new requirements? That's what he said about his cleets. Is he going to do something about it to meet requirements? Yup, that's what he said. Is it really that frigging difficult to do? No.
The SCA probably will never be an Illumanted Manusript come to life, but at least it does not have to look worse than the average Renn Faire. Is that so difficult?

------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics"
http://www.caerdubh.com/coeurdeleon/index.html

What level of enforcement beyond "you don't get to fight in the list like that" is necessary? I mean, if Lord Bob O'Knobin keeps showing up in his blue pickle barrel, jeans, t-shirt and sneakers, and keeps being told, "You won't be able to enter the list like that. See you at practice." who really cares? I mean, what do you want to do, banish him? He's obviously not very smart. But seriously, if the rules are to improve on-field appearance, and Lord Bob isn't allowed on the list at an event, mission accomplished.

Doctor, it hurts when I do this!

Don't do that!

Frankly, if a fighter wants to enter the lists to compete in the event for which he has trained, and he keeps being turned back, he WILL comply.

here is a perfect example....

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sarnac/baz3.jpg

These are made of blue plastic....

but with a tube of barge cement, $2.00 of yellow velveteen and some scraps of suede strips...and 3.50 woth of rivets....and a little effort....
you have covered plastic arm protection

effort is the key word..... this law is requiring people to put forth a little effort and live up to our charter.

Logan ....would this be sufficent?

[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 07-03-2003).]

yeah, looks fine to me. nothing blatantly modern, a decent shade of yellow, looks nice.

regards
logan

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sarnac:
<B>here is a perfect example....

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sarnac/baz3.jpg

These are made of blue plastic....

but with a tube of barge cement, $2.00 of yellow velveteen and some scraps of suede strips...and 3.50 woth of rivets....and a little effort....
you have covered plastic arm protection

effort is the key word..... this law is requiring people to put forth a little effort and live up to our charter.

Logan ....would this be sufficent?

[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 07-03-2003).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by dukelogan (edited 07-03-2003).]


edit was to remove an inappropriate joke.

[This message has been edited by dukelogan (edited 07-04-2003).]

so you are saying that the part of our charter that requires an attempt at garb prior to the 17th century really isnt meant to be followed? or are you saying that you believe that blue jeans, a cooler, and a nylon chair are all reasonable attempts?

you must be saying one of them and im confused as to how you feel you can actually defend that stance.

can you clarify please?

regards
logan


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Varthos:
<B> I don't care much for them either. I don't use 'sports armor', and I try to hide what inauthentic bits that are required for SCA combat (such as the sidewalls and grill on my helmet). Here's the problem, though: "the sca has accepted this sort of lazy behavior for" as long as the SCA has been around. For some people, it is "a beach party", and those people have been a part of the society since the Berkeley backyard affair.

The SCA is not defined by its charter, loosely worded though that may be. The SCA is the sum total of its traditions and the character of its members. Its all well and good to encourage members toward authenticity, but to legislate it flies in the face of the society's inherent incongruity and has the appearance of a few who are in power trying to dictate the standards to the masses.

I know - we are structured as a monarchy. "The King's word is law." However, we are in reality more than that. We are a voluntary congregation. Some people like the beach party, some people don't mind the beach party, and others tolerate the beach party in the name of diversity and freedom of choice. I suspect that collection of factions make up a very large portion of the SCA, perhaps collectively larger than the factions that would push for compulsary authenticity.

Under the currently very loose standards of the society's charter, and given the history and character of the the society itself, I can see how those opposed to your suggested changes would balk. The society has not "accepted this sort of lazy behavior". Rather, this is as the society has always been. Your legislation does not attempt to bring the society back on track so much as redirect it down a path you would like to see it go.

Good luck with your experiment. It will be interesting to see how things develop.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duke Logan,

I personally think that you are taking Atlantia in the right direction. Way to GO!!!!!!!!!

Bran

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dukelogan:
can you clarify please?
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly. I am saying neither. I have said that the charter does not define what the SCA is. The charter is a retrofitted document that attempts to describe the society, and really doesn't do a very good job of it.

The SCA started as a costume party, and a substantial chunk of its members have continued in that tradition to this very day. Any attempts to steer it toward 'living history' are attempts to alter its base nature. I like this society because it gives me an excuse to research byzantine history and beat on people with sticks. I have taken steps along the way to achieve a greater level of authenticity, but that is a personal choice.

It is my belief that the best part of this organization is its ability to embrace a wide scope of people and interests. Along the way, some people develop specific or greater interests and delve deeper into them. I have never met an authenticity oriented person corrupted by the dark side to become a blue jeans wearing, cooler foot propping, nylon chair sitting goober. I have seem many people go the other way.

Yet another iteration of the tired old argument about the SCA being a "big umbrella" with room for people of all persuasions under it. Worse yet is the statement that "well, I see to it that *my* own personal stuff is accurate, but I wouldn't dream of forcing others into historical accuracy". It's beliefs like this one that retard the SCA's progress. People who hold views like this enable losers, like the newbie who told me at fighter practice (after I offered to replace her ugly-ass road-sign and sleeping bag armour with something decent *free of charge*) that she didn't give a shit about authenticity as long as her gear met the minimum requirements to get on the field, to persist in their evil and detrimental attitudes. Any member of the public who happens upon a collection of SCA folks, whether at a fighter practice, an event, or a demo, is going to judge them according to how the worst-dressed among them looks.

I do not believe that any organization whose "mission statement" at the top of its website makes it out to be nothing less than a group dedicated to re-creating pre-17th century life should be perceived by any of its members as merely a costume party. If the SCA refuses to take seriously the "make a reasonable attempt" directive it has set out for itself, then it should drop it altogether and get on with becoming the half-assed backyard live-action D&D game most of its players seem to want it to be.

Should that come to pass, and the SCA drops any pretense of striving for historical accuracy, then I will immediately cease ranting and go play in one of the many Living History groups that are likely to spring up as the SCA turns its back on the only people within the organization who give a rat's ass about actually looking and behaving like someone from the European Middle Ages.

As it slowly but surely drives away the only people in it capable of or concerned with bettering its image, the SCA will decay into a low-quality LARP (with its participants looking perhaps like they are "re-enacting" some sort of post-apocalyptic world). It won't even be a good LARP. Plenty of "boffer" LARP groups the SCA sneers at now look ten times better already. Even if it is geared toward fantasy rather than history, Bicolline, for example, does a better job of transporting its players to a different time/place than even the better SCA events. Hell, the SCA has even lost that "we're the only group doing *real* combat out there" angle it once thought it had. Plenty of historical martial arts groups now exist whose combat is not only "full-contact/full-speed", but actually try to make sure that they are fighting in the same manner as our medieval forebears. Clearly, the SCA needs to grow up and get with the times. Let's give a damn and keep up with current research and scholarship and stop allowing our game to stagnate.

Sooner or later, as both the martial arts groups and the serious re-enactor groups grow, they will start siphoning off the SCA's cream, leaving only the dregs. One day, the SCA will be composed of a handful of rednecks or gutter-scrapings who play mostly so they can hit people with sticks, but can't be bothered with the burder of having to research any historical combat. Perhaps there will be a sprinkling of old-timers who remember what it was like in the good old days, when the SCA was the only game in town, and they could spread misinformation and perpetuate outdated myths about the European Middle Ages with impunity.

Of course, if more SCA monarchs follow in the footsteps of Alaric and Logan, and we ignore complaints of all the degenerates who object to being coerced into making this a better game, this inexorable decline could be avoided. Let's crank up the pressure to look nice, both on the field and off. Let's drive away the shallow, one-dimensional types instead of pushing out the very folks we should be trying to hold on to. Let's banish the wacky fringe elements that seem to congregate at larger events. Let's be a little more discerning in our recruitment of newbies. This could be a fun game someday...

[This message has been edited by Joaquin (edited 07-04-2003).]

nikes, a blue bicket and some tape is not a costume, Sure we are an umbrella group, no reason we have to look like hell.
The known world handbook states that you must make a reasonable attempt at a medieval appearance, i seldom see a reasonable attempt.
People like Logan and Aleric and their kingdoms are going to help define a reasonable attempt.
These new rules are easy to follow, people just need to suck it up and make some effort.

I think this is a GREAT idea. And I'd like to see it spread throughout the SCA. It probably will. I think when people see what Can be done with a little effort, more folks will jump on the "bandwagon". I also think Vitus is on the right track with Kingdom awards for obvious effort on period kit.I wish you the best of luck with this Logan....Otto

Your Grace:

My best friend and his family are moving to the Washington, DC area in a week or so. We were discussing the changes to Atlantian Kingdom Law while engaged in a bit of a "farewell party" (large drinking horns filled with Hacker-Pschorr Hefe-Weisen, and amazed bartenders, but that's not the point... ). His only concern is about <u>footwear</u>, but otherwise, his equipment is at or above the standards you are putting in place:

<B>

• Bascinet (with interchangeable visors and welded stainless aventail)
  
• Welded stainless hauberk
  
• Aluminum lamellar klibanion, or:
  
• Leather lamellar corselet
  
• Steel gauntlets
  
• Fluted gothic plate leg harness

</B>

His lady, OTOH, has quite a lot of what I'd call "cabaret" Middle Eastern dance clothing. They're a tad concerned about the rules changes, and whether they can get her clothing up to speed in time. I've assured them that there's a grace period allowed newcomers from out-of-kingdom, but what local resources are there to get her up to speed?

Further, they have a two-year old daughter, and there are certain mundane necessities a two-year-old has to have. What provisions/options are available for toddling smalls?

Any suggestions you might have would ease their minds (and mine as well).

P. S.: On the plus side, they do have a period pavilion with period camp furniture as well.

Cool! I think the new rules are very neat. But I do have a couple questions:

Concerning 10.1.1

Does this mean that there will be no area for mundane tents at kingdom level events anymore?

How will the "no coke can" rule be enforced?

Broadway:

I think the law only covers tents around the eric/list field.

On "Coke cans"--I imagine it'll be covered in the same way as the "discreetly wet" site rule. You put the canned beverage in a goblet, tankard, horn or jack and discreetly dispose of the empty can in the privacy of your tent. No harm, no foul.

There is a design for a break-down box that can hide your cooler, so that it looks like a coffer chest on the House Greydragon Webpage. Look under the Medieval Tent links or the Furniture links.

I'm currently wokining on the coke can issue my self... (well pepsi can) Even though i dont live in atlantia, I relize that a can of frosty pepsi detracts formt he ambiance.

My solution is going to be a proper boiled jack "coozie". In essence, I'm gonna wetform leather over a soda can filled with plaster, and allow to dry in the oven, then boil in wax. At an event, I just slide the can into the jack, and it looks like I'm drinking from a period leather cup. It would even work with matts cheap ass american pisswater beer cans (sorry matt...had to say it).

ideally, In my dream world, I'd liek to get a 50 gal wooden nail keg, fill it with a co2 kegging system, and run the tap out of the front. It would look like i was drawing a pint... but that's some healthy money...

-+G

Toddling smalls?!?!?! If your underwear are running away, then it's time to catch them and put them in the washing machine!

Seriously, now - having raised two children from infants in the SCA, I can say that it *is* possible to attend an event without a stroller, and in a reasonably period manner. Toddler leashes can be made out of leather or cloth; make a leather jack to cover the bottle or sippy cup; little bloomers to cover up the diaper (or use cloth diapers); period toddler toys are available also (rag dolls, wooden animals, wooden rattles).

With a little creativity and effort, you can hide or find a period alternative to just about everything.

Gwyneth

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dukelogan:
<B>which mighty morphin ranger are you sarnac?
[This message has been edited by dukelogan (edited 07-03-2003).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know you were only kidding around 'cause we know each other...but dude....dont ridicule people who are trying to comply....

thats bad form....even if you are joking...as King..it carries a whole lot more weight.
You know that.

Just some advice to the King...I'm a Peer...its my job.

I understand how to comply to the coke can law...

My question was how to enforce it...

Say, I'm at an event, and I see a person with a visible coke can, and I mention that its not allowed, and he says "fuck off"

etc...

whoa bro it was only a joke. the leather is just a bright color and most people wear drab looking stuff (black or brown). totaly acceptable and very classy. sorry if my ribbing you caused you discomfort as none was intended.

logan

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sarnac:
<B> I know you were only kidding around 'cause we know each other...but dude....dont ridicule people who are trying to comply....

thats bad form....even if you are joking...as King..it carries a whole lot more weight.
You know that.

Just some advice to the King...I'm a Peer...its my job.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the rules only apply to those wishing to participate on the field (heavy fighters, rapier, combat archers, marshals, seige crews, banner bearers, etc). as far as the intrusion of modern items and children goes my only concern is that the child is comfortable and happy. for some that means dragging out the big cage thingy that they dump the kids in to play. for others its period styled garb and period styled toys. whatever works best for them. im not crazy enough to mess with the kids.

his kit sounds fine and there are a ton of very talented people in the northern reaches of atlantia. so you tell them not to worry.

also, there is a four month grace period for those that move to atlantia from other kingdoms and this law doesnt go into affect until dec 1st. so they have plenty of time.

regards
logan

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Templar Bob/De Tyre:
<B>Your Grace:

My best friend and his family are moving to the Washington, DC area in a week or so. We were discussing the changes to Atlantian Kingdom Law while engaged in a bit of a "farewell party" (large drinking horns filled with Hacker-Pschorr Hefe-Weisen, and amazed bartenders, but that's not the point... ). His only concern is about <u>footwear</u></B>, but otherwise, his equipment is at or above the standards you are putting in place:

<B>

• Bascinet (with interchangeable visors and welded stainless aventail)
• Welded stainless hauberk
• Aluminum lamellar klibanion, or:
• Leather lamellar corselet
• Steel gauntlets
• Fluted gothic plate leg harness

</B>

His lady, OTOH, has quite a lot of what I'd call "cabaret" Middle Eastern dance clothing. They're a tad concerned about the rules changes, and whether they can get her clothing up to speed in time. I've assured them that there's a grace period allowed newcomers from out-of-kingdom, but what local resources are there to get her up to speed?

Further, they have a two-year old daughter, and there are certain mundane necessities a two-year-old has to have. What provisions/options are available for toddling smalls?

Any suggestions you might have would ease their minds (and mine as well).

P. S.: On the plus side, they do have a period pavilion with period camp furniture as well. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dukelogan:
<B>whoa bro it was only a joke. the leather is just a bright color and most people wear drab looking stuff (black or brown). totaly acceptable and very classy. sorry if my ribbing you caused you discomfort as none was intended.

logan

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*I* know you were joking....others however...
*may not*....even if you think you are being clear that you are.

Hence my post.....no worries..just trying to be a good Peer.

we will just have to disagree. in my opinion the sca has little to do with what diane the listmaker and her buddies did in berkley. that was merely the spark that started the sca. the sca has grown into something that can not reasonably be compared to the costume party they had. they did no level of research compared to what we have at our disposal today.

and regardless it is no reason to hold back the progress of the sca towards a better example of history and culture. long gone are the elven and fairie days of dianes party thankfully and the sca has grown to be so much more. im just glad they decided to have that party or none of this would be here today. but the growth of the sca must be acknowledged.

regards
logan


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Varthos:
<B> Certainly. I am saying neither. I have said that the charter does not define what the SCA is. The charter is a retrofitted document that attempts to describe the society, and really doesn't do a very good job of it.

The SCA started as a costume party, and a substantial chunk of its members have continued in that tradition to this very day. Any attempts to steer it toward 'living history' are attempts to alter its base nature. I like this society because it gives me an excuse to research byzantine history and beat on people with sticks. I have taken steps along the way to achieve a greater level of authenticity, but that is a personal choice.

It is my belief that the best part of this organization is its ability to embrace a wide scope of people and interests. Along the way, some people develop specific or greater interests and delve deeper into them. I have never met an authenticity oriented person corrupted by the dark side to become a blue jeans wearing, cooler foot propping, nylon chair sitting goober. I have seem many people go the other way.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i deleted the reference from the post.

logan


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sarnac:
<B> *I* know you were joking....others however...
*may not*....even if you think you are being clear that you are.

Hence my post.....no worries..just trying to be a good Peer.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats a different story. in that case you get a member of the chivalry or the autocrat to remind the person of the expectations of behavior at sca events. if that behavior continues they simply get removed from site. one expectation is that the rules are followed. so they lose regardless.

regards
logan


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Broadway:
<B>I understand how to comply to the coke can law...

My question was how to enforce it...

Say, I'm at an event, and I see a person with a visible coke can, and I mention that its not allowed, and he says "fuck off"

etc...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks for the stick in the eye about the usage of the term 'smalls'. its a pet peeve of mine to a very small degree but i too read it as undergarments. 8^)

i have seen kids that do really well with all period stuff around them. some not as well. however, it all worked for kids back then and im sure they can be comfortable today. is there anyone spearheading childrens lives in period and displaying their research?

regards
logan


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gwyneth:
<B>Toddling smalls?!?!?! If your underwear are running away, then it's time to catch them and put them in the washing machine!

Seriously, now - having raised two children from infants in the SCA, I can say that it *is* possible to attend an event without a stroller, and in a reasonably period manner. Toddler leashes can be made out of leather or cloth; make a leather jack to cover the bottle or sippy cup; little bloomers to cover up the diaper (or use cloth diapers); period toddler toys are available also (rag dolls, wooden animals, wooden rattles).

With a little creativity and effort, you can hide or find a period alternative to just about everything.

Gwyneth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off I think it will be a good law for Atlantia overall. Having marshalled at the event the curia was held, As inspections were going on I was talking to his majesty and we observed how many fighters actually already adheared to the new law minus a few small things( mainly footware) Also during inspections myself and other marshalls would just point out to guys , just remember Dec 1 this will have to be covered etc and several of us offerred suggestions. To my knowledge I did not hear any resistence or complaints about any of that and there were over 50 fighters in the list.

In regards to the tent issue. I have done field set ups for many events including crown tourneys and smaller local events. What i usually do is set aside an area off of the list field but not very far away for all modern tents. Space around the list field is reserved for period tents and dayshades and if permitted by the head autocrat, well covered modern popup shades. And I must admit at the recent event this went on I saw several pop ups that really looked good and could tell folks put alot of effort into fixing them up. BY running set up that way I have not recieved complaints from folks and most are usually understanding.

Just my 2cents!
GeneP
Robert Maccuswell in the SCA

I actually like the intent behind this (Shock, I know). I have a couple of questions, to clarify things a bit-

How much effort is considered "good faith" to hide such things as a plastic body harness? Will there be actual standards?

The only visible plastic I currently fight with are my gauntlets. So far, I haven't figured out any way to cover them that won't either look worse, stand out more, and/or deteriorate and look crappy very quickly. Ideas? I wanted them black to be unobtrusive; painting them light brown or other skin-tone would make them stand out and be more noticable. Painting them black when they already are seems silly. Fabric I fear would tear up rapidly. Leather would probably do the same, and both wouldn't stay put at the edges.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

There was a time I was very, very strict about hiding modern items. I used to take the labels off of old wine bottles, fill the bottles with red Gatorade and put the corks back in! I covered all of my camp chairs with heraldic throw-cloths, and all of my armour was transported in painted wooden chests.
I will be honest, SCA knighthood can be a bit of a pain in the ass in that most of my time is now spent on somebody else's projects instead of my own. My armour chests are trashed and worn out- I am using plastic tubs for God's sake! I don't have 12 spare hours to create and sew the quilted lining back into my bascinet. Someone made surcoats out of my chair covers. I use aluminum shields because I can't afford to make wooden ones all the time. I HATE IT!
What happened to the Vitus who was moving towards Living History levels of authenticity? Vassalage and a crappy economy have laid me low. I don't have any extra money for the stuff I want to do. I have to figure out a way to get back on track. It's a nightmare! Arrgghh!

Logan -

Thanks! It's also a minor pet peeve of mine, along with the term "goslings".

I don't know of anyone offhand who is doing research specifically into how children were raised in the Middle Ages. I've done some very limited research but have been more concerned about how to "periodize" my very modern children. And my research is three to four years old at best - it dates from the time I was Kingdom Minister of Children and we were setting up our page school program. There have been several articles in the SCA publication Tournaments Illuminated, but none terribly exhaustive on the subject. There are at least three or four e-mail groups on Yahoo! for SCA parents. I don't subscribe any more, but I would certainly recommend them - especially for new parents or parents new to the SCA. The folks there have lots of good advice on how to "periodize" baby and child paraphernalia.

For baby equipment - if you can't cover it, find a period alternative, or make a replacement out of leather or wood, then you probably don't really need it. Slings and leashes are period; a good playpen can be made out of lattice panels; use a wagon instead of a stroller. Get younger kids used to the period toys by letting them play with the toys at home; older kids like having "SCA toys" that only come out at events. And ALL kids will play happily with rocks, dirt, sticks and leaves if given half a chance.

I've got a million ideas where kids are concerned, but none of them really researched to the nines. Most of them are just common sense and in reaction to being around kids for years. I'd be happy to expound at greater length privately (or here) if folks are really interested in reading my ramblings about kids and the SCA.

Gwyneth

Vitus said:

"What happened to the Vitus who was moving towards Living History levels of authenticity? Vassalage and a crappy economy have laid me low."

You actually answered your own question.

Try thinking small scale... one chair.

Work on one chair for a while, till its done, then something else...

baby steps...

Sir Vitus,

Knighthood hasn't taken me off track for authenticity, not for me its an ex-wife, and all of the evil mundane stuff that goes with that situation. I'm a full-time armorer now, so I rarely have time for my projects either, but I steal time in the evenings. I find time on the weekends when I'm not at events. I ask those that want me to help them, that I would be more than happy, but I'm working on "x". They are more than welcome to come to the shop and I'll give them all of the advice/suggestions they need, while I work on my stuff. It just takes time and dedication, that I don't feel I have anymore....and then I start my next project and creativity sparks, I get immersed in the fun, and a week or two later, I'm talking about I don't have time for the next project....
As for the aluminum shield problem; GAA is now offering hand-laminated marine birch quality shields. They are 12 layers thick, (about 3/8 inch) but are as strong as 3/4 plywood. They can be cut to your specifications and can have a curve built into them.
They are a bit pricy, but they should last a really long time.
There are several excuses to be lazy. "I can't afford real materials", I don't know how to make, 'x'", "I don't have time", etc... But what brought us into this game in the first place? For me it was the majic of Pennsic, in 1981. I was transported to an old time and place, it was something that I couldn't find anywhere else. I think that that deserves some effort. I think that the law being passed in Atlantia will force those with all of the excuses to either put forth some effort and find the majic again, or it will make them go away. Either way it will bring about a more authentic appearance and bring some of the majic back. It will make the SCA what I had found all of those years ago, (at least in appearance).

I think I'm done rambling...

Uilleag

GAA? How do I get these shield blanks? Need more info.
Looking at Gothiceye.com has been a depressing experience. I have no choice- I have to get spring steel armour. Maybe by the time I am forty I will have a kit that is LH quality and yet not detrimental to my field performance. Sigh.