The Armour Archive

Dietrich von Stroheim wrote:
Sir Malcolm,
You might be right--with it being the same site, they kinda blur together in my mind. I just remember a nice hard hit, I glanced over and saluted, and thought, 'Oh. Cool, a low-profile speartip.' which was quickly pushed aside by, 'I'm going to skewer that guy as soon as I rezz ' (in a courteous and friendly fashion of course)

I was wearing scale armor and a dark roman sort of helm. If that was me I took my fair share of revenge thumpings post rez. Hope you didn't hurt me too badly.
Guy in the green tunic. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... 1458349985

Gorm wrote:safeguards are removed/not implemented for increases in productivity *all the time*. There is a balance between likelihood of injury vs benefit.

Of course it does happen, but its not supposed to and its the sort of thing that will get a company in a lot of trouble with MSHA/OSHA. Its also one of the reasons people are still getting injured and killed on the job. You see the same sort of justifications there too "we've taken this shortcut for years and no one got hurt" until the time someone does get hurt. Virtually every major injury comes from someone bypassing or ignoring safety measures to make a job go faster. Set up a situation where injury is possible and it will happen, given enough time.
In really big projects they used to define the project in terms of cost and expected deaths, they just assumed it was inevitable that people would die building the empire state building and built that into the project costs.



The question is: How many of what severity of injury are acceptable for these new tips to be considered safe or banned?

Gorm wrote:

I'm just bummed because I'd worked out a pretty darned good ability to pry open a shield wall using the 3" cue tip as a pry bar...now that'll be gone...guess I'm gonna have to learn how to use a spear hook.

Not at all. 3" heads have not been removed. You can just use the 2" mandrake tip on your fiber pole now if you want to.

3" tips are still legal. anyone can use them if they wish. how is your ability to do your shield prying thingy gone?

logan

Gorm wrote:

Balin50 wrote:

erloas wrote:In industry increasing the chance of injury by removing safeguards for an increase in productivity is absolutely not allowed. I have no idea why we would do such a thing in a case like this. They *can* be used safely, but there is also an increased risk of injury and to me that cost seems to high for a slight increase in performance and *aesthetics* (which is the stupidest reason ever to remove safety features)

This+a big number
Balin

Except, of course, he's wrong.

safeguards are removed/not implemented for increases in productivity *all the time*. There is a balance between likelihood of injury vs benefit.

I'm just bummed because I'd worked out a pretty darned good ability to pry open a shield wall using the 3" cue tip as a pry bar...now that'll be gone...guess I'm gonna have to learn how to use a spear hook.

i firmly believe that the problem with these assumed "once or twice a year fighters" is simple. most folks have such pathetically lax expectations on authorizations. it drives me nuts that the common mantra is "well he is safe enough so he is now authorized". why? why on earth do we not expect some level of skill? anyone can act rigt for three minutes. its stupid. i would rather people actually show that they can fight, fight well, and clearly understand the rules before we give him a card to take the field. stupid, really stupid.

logan

Arngrim wrote:Since I haven't tried them I have no opinion on the 2" TTips actual rules change, but:

If you cannot find middle ground in between "point and call dead" or "blasting someone into next week" you should take a step back, a deep breath and think about that for awhile.

Comparing industrial safety to sport safety is not a fair comparison.
If football rules were written for the SCA the ball would have to have a 2"layer of blue foam around it and tackles would be disallowed.

And lastly, if we have people who are out on the field once a year and are a safety hazard, then that is the problem, not armour or weapon standards.

dukelogan wrote:3" tips are still legal. anyone can use them if they wish. how is your ability to do your shield prying thingy gone?

Nothing beyond desire to keep up with the latest tech and have a spear that looks as decent as possible while remaining inside the rules, and let's be honest, the mushrooms of death don't look good at all.

I've read the following 2 arguements from those in favor of the 2" heads, and I have some questions regarding them:

A 2" head does not hit harder than a 3" head

If this is the case, why aren't we simply going to low profile tips, such as are currently allowed on weapons under 7.5'?

a 2" head is not less safe than a 3" head

Then why is only the approved mandrake kit allowed, instead of the same materials that you would use to build a 3" head for fiberglass or a 2" head for rattan?

Greetings Your Excellency,

I disagree with some of your observations, and remember some of the history differently. To wit:

Count Johnathan wrote:I am always stunned at the lack of respect that some people seem to have for those who came before them, put their bodies to the hazard and tested various weapons and provided this organization with sturdy, functional rules that have kept this game thriving for decades.

But is this process to be considered over and done with?
We have just had a year of gentles from all over the known world putting their 'bodies to the hazard' to test these 2" tips, and found them safe and acceptable. Why is their work any less valid than what was done before them?
I understand that you and many in your Kingdom (and perhaps elsewhere) found they were not acceptable.... but that is going to be true for almost all decisions made throughout the SCA history. But from what I can tell, the vast majority of people, from a vast majority of Kingdoms, found them to be safe and beneficial.
If you want folks to 'respect' the work done previously, doesn't that behoove you to 'respect' the work done currently?

As noted 2" tips on stiff non flexible spears aren't a new concept. They were used and then banned.

As my memory serves, this is not correct. Not exactly.
We used to have hardwood spear shafts, and 2" heads. And there was not a problem with this.
THen it was decided that hardwood was dangerous because it could break and splinter, so they were banned.
Everyone used rattan for awhile, but they were often floppy and less than desired.
So someone brought up using fiberglass.
There was much rejoicing... and then much concern. Folks were worried about the fiberglass being 'too stiff'. Granted, the hardwood was the same.... but people are people, so they were concerned.
To alleviate that concern, it was decided that fiberglass spears would have 3" heads.
Please note, it was not that 2" was tried and found wanting... it was never tried. It was just decided to use 3" tips.

This rule was not from people putting their 'bodies to the hazard', but rather more of a political decision.

Now, I was pretty new when this was happening, so perhaps my memory is a bit off. I would be eager to hear if Kilkenny or someone could confirm or correct this.

There is a reason our rules were conceived. It was through trial and error.

YES! And we still are. We have experimented with flails, and low profile thrusting tips, etc. Now we have had a trial with Mandrake Tips on spears. Apparently, it was not a problem in most Kingdoms. For it to have been nor problem most places, and such a definite problem in Atenveldt, indicates to me that it is a cultural difference. Something is 'different' in Atenveldt when compared to most other Kingdoms. Please realize, this is not derogatory. But unless you are going to 'spit in the face' of all those around the Knowne World that have tested and liked the Mandrake tips; you have to realize that there is something 'different' going on.


Atenveldt and the western kingdoms have been using spears extensively thrusting to the face and head for well over thirty years. Probably closer to 40. Pennsic just started allowing face thrusts within the past 5 years right?[/quote] More like 10-12, but that is only Pennsic. Other kingdoms here have had and used face thrusts for much longer than that.

When we tested these things it was done with veterans and masters of the game. We are not uncontrolled or untrained.

What about all the folks that tested this tip and found it acceptable. Do you think they are not veterans? Are they uncontrolled? Or is it something else?
Somehow, we have veteran fighters, that are coming up with different opinions....

Spears are simply the hardest hitting weaponry we allow in this game hands down.

And this might be it. Around here, I find the polearm to be harder hitting than the spear. I am sure the spear *can be* very powerful, but it is not how it tends to be used. It doesn't need to be. It can get in a sufficient hit without being thrust so hard.
As Logan mentions, this might be the cultural difference that is creating this schism of opinion.

Our weapons standards are there with one thing in mind. Safety. Decreasing the surface area on the tip and increasing the force at which they hit makes absolutely zero sense from a safety standpoint.

If that is true, than we should move to 4" heads, or maybe 5". Afterall, it will be more surface area, thus less force, and more safe. There is nothing 'magical' about 3" being the most safe of all options.

I know we don't have to use them. I knew that before this conversation started but I am extremely curious.

But it is even better than that. If your kingdom made them legal, then individuals could still choose to not use them.
For example, lets say that you and I are of equal strength and skill in spear work.
You enjoy the game being able to throw spear shots at a strength of '9', and have them still be acceptable to the target as stout but not excessive. So you choose to use the 3" tip on the spear.
I don't want to throw that hard with each shot, so I can switch to a 2" tip, and throw my shots at a '7'.
The target doesn't care, since both of us are hitting stout but not excessive. You get to play spear the way you want to, and I get to play it the way I want to.

I'll ask again. Omarad, why was this rule changed? Why did you decide to increase the power and force transfer of the already hardest hitting weapon in the game? What is the intent of this rule?

I am not Omarad, but I think I can answer it; based on responses here and elsewhere.

People wanted it.
People have complained about overly large thrusting tips since the beginning. Swords, spears, whatever.... the q-tip looks funny.
They weigh less, look better, and are just as safe. So why not allow people to use them? (I understand you don't feel they are just as safe, but many other Kingdoms seem to disagree.)

As for them 'increasing' the power and force... that is simply incorrect. The tip is inanimate, it can't increase anything. The wielder has to know that he is using a different weapon, and adjust accordingly. If I switch between a lightweight/whippy polearm, and a heavy/stiff one, I adjust how I throw my shots. When switching from a 3" tip to a 2" tip, I would likewise have to adjust.


Anyone that doesn't want to adjust.... should stick with the 3" tip.

Morejello wrote:I've read the following 2 arguements from those in favor of the 2" heads, and I have some questions regarding them:

A 2" head does not hit harder than a 3" head

If this is the case, why aren't we simply going to low profile tips, such as are currently allowed on weapons under 7.5'?

a 2" head is not less safe than a 3" head

Then why is only the approved mandrake kit allowed, instead of the same materials that you would use to build a 3" head for fiberglass or a 2" head for rattan?

I would think both questions can be answered with the mandrake heads being of consistent construction. There are different densities of foam, people tape them to be stiffer and foam heads tend to degrade and become unsafe over time.
I've personally seen some homebrew foam tips on all kinds of weapons that would scare me 1000x more than a mandrake head would.

Count Johnathan wrote:

Angusm0628 wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:I am always stunned at the lack of respect that some people seem to have for those who came before them, put their bodies to the hazard and tested various weapons and provided this organization with sturdy, functional rules that have kept this game thriving for decades. I know many of the gentleman who provided a huge portion of this games rules and I thank them for going through this process long ago so that we may enjoy the game as we currently participate in it. Some of you spit in their faces with your commentary.

Nobody is spitting in anyone's face. What people are doing are attempting to move forward/do something different etc.
If nobody gave thought to a "What if" with innovation, We'd be walking to wherever we wanted to go. Be paying taxes to Kings and part of a peasant levy unless you (General) happened to born into actual Royalty to this day..

As mentioned previosly it isn't new or innovative. Just a bad idea.

I'm still bemused by the way some people use the word "respect".

I've been one of the guys making the rules - way back when rocks were soft and all that.

Everyone has seen the "respect" I get from some quarters. Even while they speak of how we should respect those who made the rules.

Rule making is an iterative and ongoing process. The rules were not perfected at some point in the past.

Not only were they not perfected, but this same kind of debate went on then, with name calling and everything. Just not across the internet.

There have been a number of rules that were put into place for safety reasons that have been withdrawn - without there having been any change in the safety factor. There are rules that have been in place for decades that people scream about being new when they are actually enforced.

It all comes down to people complain about what they don't like and it has nothing to do with respect.

It has to do with complaining.

Then why is only the approved mandrake kit allowed, instead of the same materials that you would use to build a 3" head for fiberglass or a 2" head for rattan?

The are still experimental until it is determined that it can be done consitently, I would imagine.

.

Sir Omarad wrote:Let me clarify what I said and meant to help with understanding.
What I said was that this manufacturer gave some samples to use for testing.
Other merchants asked about his "monopoly". (even though the tip was already legal on rattan spears, we were just trying it on fiberglass)
I said that he gave samples to be tested and that any manufactured tip was open for testing but I need some samples to see if they might work out.
Windrose was the only one who sent me a few samples.
No one else did.
Since the announcement I have at least one merchant sending some tips for testing.
That's that.

This all followed a mini test that was done by 2 previous SEM's at a Lilies War a few years ago to see if the tips, which are perfectly legal on rattan, could be used on fiberglass.
They worked great in the mini test and then after some discussions I decided to try that test again with a small control group.

Windrose donated a few (2 or 3) tips and we bought a few more.
etc... etc...

Now, the goal of this was to bridge the gap between 3" homemade tips and an eventual safe transition to 2" homemade tips.
The manufactured tip was the perfect way to go since it was an already proven tip being used on rattan weapons and spears all over the SCA.

As I've stated previously the uniformity of the tip really allows for the examination of the user's control and provides a very nice metod to establish a "learning curve" that I hope with time will lead us to the homemade tips acceptance.

(we tried a homemade tip experiment and it just wasn't consistent at all from Kingdom to Kingdom)

I have asked the Kingdoms to re-establish the homemade tip experiments but that is up to them.

I agree wholeheartedly with Logan and others that a good fighter should be able to fight safely without any tips at all and that control is the heart of everything.
We put foam and tips on our weapons to allow us the "grey area" where conditions change faster than our control and reflexes can adjust and we can still maintain safety.

The lower profile tips on swords and pole-weapons I instituted have not been the harbingers of doom that some envisioned.

Give the Mandrake tips a chance and I think they'll prove themselves and will lead to greater control. I also think that homemade tips can be in the foreseeable future pending the success of this change.
-Omarad

dukelogan wrote:omarad covered this. first, you have to make a bunch of them and send them to the various kems to look at / use. then, after some time they may be allowed on an expiremental basis (whats that run? for some reason i have 1 year stuck in my head but im not sure). after that they my be approved.

[/quote]

There ya go Diglach. Covered on page 5. Back to my regular lurking on topics I haven't gone a bone to fight over in.

Sir Omarad wrote:(we tried a homemade tip experiment and it just wasn't consistent at all from Kingdom to Kingdom)
-Omarad

The are still experimental until it is determined that it can be done consitently, I would imagine.

I would think both questions can be answered with the mandrake heads being of consistent construction.

This was the answer I was looking for (which I already knew). I asked it to point out that the position is inconsistent EVEN WITHIN Omarad's explaination.

Sir Omarad wrote:The manufactured tip was the perfect way to go since it was an already proven tip being used on rattan weapons and spears all over the SCA.

Homebuilt 2" tips have been used FAR LONGER on rattan weapons than the windrose manufactured tip. There's no move to ban or regulate homebuilt tips on rattan, or to require all rattan weapons to have premanufactured tips, or to make rattan spears with homebuilt tips conform to the 3" standard. Nor is there a movement out there to eliminate inconsistent 3" heads from fiberglass. Those all suggest that the issue isn't that homebuilt heads are too inconsistent to use, it's that the combination of 2" head and fiberglass spear is inherently less safe.

<edited>

Morejello wrote:
Homebuilt 2" tips have been used FAR LONGER on rattan weapons than the windrose manufactured tip. There's no move to ban or regulate homebuilt tips on rattan, or to require all rattan weapons to have premanufactured tips, or to make rattan spears with homebuilt tips conform to the 3" standard. Nor is there a movement out there to eliminate inconsistent 3" heads from fiberglass. Those all suggest that the issue isn't that homebuilt heads are too inconsistent to use, it's that the combination of 2" head and fiberglass spear is inherently less safe.

<edited>

No one is moving to ban anything. When you experiment with a weapon you try and rule out any variables such as inconsistent building methods such as foam, tape, leather, spit, glue, cement, re-bar, etc.. At the time the only manufactured tip was the windrose and they were the only one to submit a tip for testing. There is currently an experiment to try out homemade 2" tips as well.
I do think that the current foam tips need to be given the hairy eyeball during inspection much more than they are.

Those are not all my quotes. Those are not all in context.
If you actually READ all my posts you will see that I favor moving to homemade tips as we learn that 2" tips are ok.
If you don't like them, don't use one.

Morejello wrote:

Sir Omarad wrote:(we tried a homemade tip experiment and it just wasn't consistent at all from Kingdom to Kingdom)
-Omarad

The are still experimental until it is determined that it can be done consitently, I would imagine.

I would think both questions can be answered with the mandrake heads being of consistent construction.

This was the answer I was looking for (which I already knew). I asked it to point out that the position is inconsistent EVEN WITHIN Omarad's explaination.

Sir Omarad wrote:The manufactured tip was the perfect way to go since it was an already proven tip being used on rattan weapons and spears all over the SCA.

Homebuilt 2" tips have been used FAR LONGER on rattan weapons than the windrose manufactured tip. There's no move to ban or regulate homebuilt tips on rattan, or to require all rattan weapons to have premanufactured tips, or to make rattan spears with homebuilt tips conform to the 3" standard. Nor is there a movement out there to eliminate inconsistent 3" heads from fiberglass. Those all suggest that the issue isn't that homebuilt heads are too inconsistent to use, it's that the combination of 2" head and fiberglass spear is inherently less safe.

<edited>

WoW 7 pages with name calling and you hit like a pussy talk and everything. It took me a while to read because I am slow from getting hit by spears too hard over the last 25 years.

The advances in technology is how we change.

I do remember that right before I started playing oak shafts were outlawed.

My friend Sir Cyf Ironhand had her sternum dislocated at Pennsic in like '82- '84. She was no little girl being 6' tall and built like a linebacker. I didn't figure out until some time later why the oak shafts were banned.

It was mass, and flexibility that was the problem. Along with the fact that after you hit them for a while they got unstable and when they broke they broke jagged and sharp. Someone said earlier ( i am not going back through 7 pages to see who so I will paraphrase what I remember) Those spears had a "X" amount of lead weight on the back for a counterbalance. I if you have a 9' shaft weighing about 3 pounds (my speculation only after reading http://www.hikstik.com/shafts.html )with a pound of tape and blue foam enough to make it legal back then and adding a counter weight that is lots of mass moving forward.

9' Rattan that was not whippy was hard to come by back then so a shaft that weighed less than oak and didnt splinter seemed cool.

Oh the advances of technology.

I was at the event when Baldur brought one to Ansteorra and Inman had him hold it while he walked up it and it didn't break but it flexed. We had a long time to get used to them but there was a rattan shortage at the time and it was hard to get 9' so that was another factor in their passing as well. We have a separate authorization for fiberglass spear then and we still do now. I can only guess that other kingdoms do as well. That may have to be looked into again if injuries come up from folks that hit like it was a 3" tip.

Fiberglass breaks with fuzzy fiberglass but it is not usually shard-like as an oak shaft was. I have fought with fiberglass since then as I got my fiberglass authorization as soon as I could afford a spear.

Oh the advances of technology.

I went to the 3" foam Mandrake kits as soon as Roderick came out with them as I didn't want to get my tip flunked or hurt someone with faulty weapons. I dont play this game to hurt others and I dont like having to hurt others to have them call a shot from me. When he came out with the 2" rubbber tips I put them on all my weapons that I could and the 1.25" ones as well but that was short lived as I didnt like the way they made the swords more tip heavy and I didnt want to change what I was doing. I made one of the first 2" experimental fiberglass spears in Ansteorra and we played with them without incedent but we realized that we could hit harder with them if we needed to. I tell people to hit low on the chin to duck your opponents head and put their helm into their chest instead of hitting them in the eye and flipping them backwards. I think your helm will only go so far down until it bottoms out on you. It also gets their attention when their chin ducks down from positive force.

Oh the advances of technology.

The new spears weigh MUCH less than they used to. I have made 6 in the last 2 years. I thought about posting the weights on them but they are in the trailer and we are snowed in right now. Logan's light weight woodgrains are the lightest ones that I have found and I have a first gen and a second gen after someone stepped on my spear during a charge when my son was using it at Gulf War last year. That was the first spear that I have ever had broken in 25 years too and It was the good light red fiberglass.

I think that advances in technology can even be embraced by folks that play a medieval game.

But if technology advances then we may have to change the things we do. The old "because we have always done it that way" may have to be re-thought.

In the early 90's Duke Michael went to pennsic and carried his tu-chuk spear up there. It was a leather disk taped onto 9' of rattan because he couldn't get anyone to call a shot unless it hurt them. Almost every year and almost every war an illegal weapon is pulled off the field. Some times before they injur someone but most of the time not. Count Jean Paul had a visor bar from his windrose helm bent into his cheek, leaving a bruise and making his helm have a bit more than a 1"gap in it, from a spear shot at the last Estrella I went to a few years ago. I hope that spear was legal because J.P.'s helm was.

SO if we go to a standardized weapon we can keep an eye on the folks at the other end being unsafe and not the weapons.

When Inman was considering the fiberglass shafts back in the 80's he said "you know what kind of damage I could do with one of those things?" We said "yes we do but are you going to?"

Sir Omarad wrote:If you don't like them, don't use one.

If I don't like them can I ask that no one else use them? Can I ask that no one use them at any war I go to?

If I don't think they are safe, I have the choice of not using them. I do not have the choice of not facing them (if I want to fight outside of Atenveldt apparently).

dukelogan wrote:i firmly believe that the problem with these assumed "once or twice a year fighters" is simple. most folks have such pathetically lax expectations on authorizations. it drives me nuts that the common mantra is "well he is safe enough so he is now authorized". why? why on earth do we not expect some level of skill? anyone can act rigt for three minutes. its stupid. i would rather people actually show that they can fight, fight well, and clearly understand the rules before we give him a card to take the field. stupid, really stupid.

logan

Logan, if that was the way we did things well...

If in the early days the guys who wer already fighting had said "you can't participate because your skill is lacking" this organization would have died within a year. There would have been NO SCA for you to find and join.

That is why.

Cedric wrote:

Sir Omarad wrote:If you don't like them, don't use one.

If I don't like them can I ask that no one else use them? Can I ask that no one use them at any war I go to?

If I don't think they are safe, I have the choice of not using them. I do not have the choice of not facing them (if I want to fight outside of Atenveldt apparently).

Yes clearly a conflict. I was going to ask the exact same question. Apparently the SEM thinks that if we don't feel 2" tips are safe we should not travel and support other kingdoms. I guess we can all go to hell as far as he is concerned. He makes that abundantly clear.

Sir Omarad wrote:Those are not all my quotes. Those are not all in context.
If you actually READ all my posts you will see that I favor moving to homemade tips as we learn that 2" tips are ok.

Yes, I understand that those were not all your quotes. Just the two which specifically had your name attached. My appologies if it seemed that I was trying to misattribute quotes to you, although I do not feel the other quotes vary considerably from your stated position.

I realize that you favor moving to homemade tips. My point is that we've been using homemade 2" tips for a long time now. If the well established premanufactured 2" tip is okay on fiberglass, why is the well established homemade 2" tip not okay? And if inconsistency in construction of homemade tips is a significant enough problem to not allow them on fiberglass, why isn't it enough of a problem to discontinue them on rattan?

I understand that the decision has been made to allow 2" on fiberglass. My opinion is that if we're going to allow 2" on fiberglass, we should allow the same type of homemade construction that we see on rattan.

The Mandrake/Windrose tips were done first to simplify the initial round of testing, not because they are thought to be unsafe. All the testers were using the same thing, so that eliminates a lot of variables from the feedback.

(Not speaking fr Sir O. here, just from conversations we've had in the past year.)

No, he's pointing out the existing rule that has always been in place. Kind of like guys sitting out combat archery battles.

If it is that much of an affront or concern, then you should be willing to sit them out, with no loss of honor.

Count Johnathan wrote:

Cedric wrote:

Sir Omarad wrote:If you don't like them, don't use one.

If I don't like them can I ask that no one else use them? Can I ask that no one use them at any war I go to?

If I don't think they are safe, I have the choice of not using them. I do not have the choice of not facing them (if I want to fight outside of Atenveldt apparently).

Yes clearly a conflict. I was going to ask the exact same question. Apparently the SEM thinks that if we don't feel 2" tips are safe we should not travel and support other kingdoms. I guess we can all go to hell as far as he is concerned. He makes that abundantly clear.

With only a couple years of fighting under my belt I will put this forward. Last July I and numerous other Caidans made the trek to West An Tir, during which there were numerous experimental spear tips on the field. I was hit once in the body and once in the face, my body armor being a simple kidney belt that did not cover where I was hit, leaving me effectively unarmored in the impact area (this is changing soon, I hope to complete a lamellar rig by March crown).

The body shot was stouter than what I would expect from a 3" tip, but overall I'd say still safe for our standards. The shot I took in the face, while not the hardest shot I've received in armored combat, was with force I would consider far and above necessary.

I don't remember the motion of the fighter using the spear which hit me in the face, but I had not seen him throwing any harder than what I'd consider a normal shot previously. I think 2" tips are a move forward in improving the look of our game, I cannot say with any certainty.

Perhaps, if Sir Omarad can make it to Estrella, a brief testing period outside of scenarios to see how and why such broad differences in opinion have arisen? I plan on arriving on site Wednesday in the early afternoon, and volunteer my person for such testing if it is to be done.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:No, he's pointing out the existing rule that has always been in place. Kind of like guys sitting out combat archery battles.

If it is that much of an affront or concern, then you should be willing to sit them out, with no loss of honor.

So, give up all SCA wars other then Estrella basically? THAT is your solution?

Uh, thanks, but No Thanks.

Ian the Red wrote:
Perhaps, if Sir Omarad can make it to Estrella, a brief testing period outside of scenarios to see how and why such broad differences in opinion have arisen? I plan on arriving on site Wednesday in the early afternoon, and volunteer my person for such testing if it is to be done.

I would also be interested in helping this. I understand that extensive testing has already been done, and I in no means want to discredit previous research. I have only had one experience with 2" tips however, and would definitely like to see them in action again.

oh what nonsense. ive trained many dozens of folks over the past 20 years. i have never sent them out until they were skilled, knew the rules, and had a clear concept of what our sport is. many are now knights, royal peers, and the current king of atlantia. a few are gone, sure, but it wasnt because i made it too hard for them to play. and i would not care at all if the folks that play with us once or twice a year (the thing i was commenting on by the way) never came back. especially if those are the mystical “lowest common denominatorâ€

Nope, that's an option the RULES give.

Personally, I'm going to fight against them, borrow or make one to try myself.

Everyone needs to make their own decision, no?

Cedric wrote:

Diglach mac Cein wrote:No, he's pointing out the existing rule that has always been in place. Kind of like guys sitting out combat archery battles.

If it is that much of an affront or concern, then you should be willing to sit them out, with no loss of honor.

So, give up all SCA wars other then Estrella basically? THAT is your solution?

Uh, thanks, but No Thanks.

its not much of an option for those that feel, rigtly or wrongly or whatever, they are unsafe. i think the question has been asked, is this something that was needed to enhance our sport. clearly i do not think there is such thing as an "unsafe" weapon but it is also clear that some cultures disagree. makes no sense to me at all. however, if we claim to embrace the right of each culture to deny something they think is unsafe, and they ask why is this rule needed which allows something we clearly feel is unsafe, i think its a pretty shitty thing to ignore their concerns and tell them "hey, just sit out every single melee because you know they will have smaller spear tips in them" without answering the question of why.

and yes, i get it, if the "rest of us" know that we can hit folks with weapons really hard without breaking them" and they simply cannot control the same weapon the same way we have a right to roll our eyes. but, we must accept that they feel they should be able to throw, sometimes without any control, and expect the armour to make the sport safe and not the people doing it if they have done it that way for years. its a legit position on their part and one that deserves some consideration, at least in discourse.

simply telling them to sit it out is as rude as the combat archery community continuing to dismiss the safety concerns we have of thin shafted ammo.

regards
logan

Diglach mac Cein wrote:Nope, that's an option the RULES give.

Personally, I'm going to fight against them, borrow or make one to try myself.

Everyone needs to make their own decision, no?

Cedric wrote:

Diglach mac Cein wrote:No, he's pointing out the existing rule that has always been in place. Kind of like guys sitting out combat archery battles.

If it is that much of an affront or concern, then you should be willing to sit them out, with no loss of honor.

So, give up all SCA wars other then Estrella basically? THAT is your solution?

Uh, thanks, but No Thanks.

I read a lot of people talking about how these new tip rules will make the weapons look better. I guess if having a good looking weapon is the main focus then people are on the wrong field. If you want pure realism in the weapons then fight with the live steel crowd. SCA fighting is full speed and full contact, so we have certain safety considerations that we have to take into account. It's like the argument that bargrills are ugly and not period, but we have them for a specific reason, so we can play the game that we play. Safety is always my number one concern, I want to be able to have a beer around the campfire with the easterner that I fought that day at Pennsic or that I faced in the tourney whent he day is done. We are all supposed to be friends, that is what makes our game great.

I don't mean to rant, but I don't care how good someone's spear looks if it just cracked two of my ribs or knocked me out. I don't plan on using the 2" tips because I don't fight spear enough (axeman through and through), but I do have to face them and I'm not going to sit out a battle because of it.

Whatever. When Omarad is done in the position a new SEM will take his place and, as many have done, change more things attempting to leave his mark on the imperial SEM throne.

I don't like the attitude that our concerns have been met with but to be fair I am certain Omarad doesn't appreciate being raked over the coals either. In the end time will tell if this is a good idea or not but what bothers me is that if more injuries do occur it will be too late to prevent those injuries and it will be on the head of the person who caused the injuries simply because they followed the new construction guidelines leaving the SEM with zero accountability in the matter.

That is pretty miserable.

If some of you want to go and harm one another for the sake of looks (which is a minute difference at best) despite our best efforts to provide ample warning, there is nothing we can do to stop you.

It won't stop most of us from continuing to travel and participating with our brother kingdoms either. We play hard, we play with intensity that some don't seem to understand but we don't like to see our fellow fighters injured regardless.

Not nonsense. Perhaps you were able to impart your particular flair upon those you trained from the start but the presentation of it (at least in writing) would put off the new wannabe fighter.

The statement of them needing to show skill sounded to me as though you want them to be good fighters before they can even participate. A good fighter to someone like you and me is like a knight level or at least close to it. Perhaps that is not what you meant. I agree that we must ensure that a newer fighter taking the field is aware and can adaquately follow the rules and not harm themselves or others but I think we already do that quite well. Our injury rates are low enough to make the case anyway.

Honestly though in the early days very few had anything close to what we consider skill today. That is what I meant.

From kingdom to kingdom there is a big difference in what level a fighter must show in order to get authorized yet we all seem to be able to frequently join each other on the field with few problems. I don't think that we should automatically assume that if injuries happen in the future at the end of these "new and improved" spears that it must be unskilled fighters that are causing the problem. Especially after many of us (knights, counts, dukes, king) have voiced such specific concerns.

[quote="dukelogan"]oh what nonsense. ive trained many dozens of folks over the past 20 years. i have never sent them out until they were skilled, knew the rules, and had a clear concept of what our sport is. many are now knights, royal peers, and the current king of atlantia. a few are gone, sure, but it wasnt because i made it too hard for them to play. and i would not care at all if the folks that play with us once or twice a year (the thing i was commenting on by the way) never came back. especially if those are the mystical “lowest common denominatorâ€

that is not what i mean at all. what i mean by having some skill is simply a far cry from the authorizations i have witnessed over many years. those being the ones were someone clearly cannot fight but, in not being able to fight, they pose no "threat" to those doing the authorization who then claim them as "safe". to me that is unacceptable. they get authorized because they only hit the other guy in the shin once and they can curl up in the stupid fetal position at the end. they never land a real blow, they answer the "how many folks can engage a single fighter at one time" question, and they are wearing ok armour. not my students. not ever. i wont send someone out if that is all they can hope to do.

i hope that makes more sense. i certainly dont expect them to be knight candidates right off the bat. i do expect them to understand our culture and embrace it as much as they embrace our sport. to date i have not failed.

regards
logan

[quote="Count Johnathan"]Not nonsense. Perhaps you were able to impart your particular flair upon those you trained from the start but the presentation of it (at least in writing) would put off the new wannabe fighter.

The statement of them needing to show skill sounded to me as though you want them to be good fighters before they can even participate. A good fighter to someone like you and me is like a knight level or at least close to it. Perhaps that is not what you meant. I agree that we must ensure that a newer fighter taking the field is aware and can adaquately follow the rules and not harm themselves or others but I think we already do that quite well. Our injury rates are low enough to make the case anyway.

Honestly though in the early days very few had anything close to what we consider skill today. That is what I meant.

From kingdom to kingdom there is a big difference in what level a fighter must show in order to get authorized yet we all seem to be able to frequently join each other on the field with few problems. I don't think that we should automatically assume that if injuries happen in the future at the end of these "new and improved" spears that it must be unskilled fighters that are causing the problem. Especially after many of us (knights, counts, dukes, king) have voiced such specific concerns.

[quote="dukelogan"]oh what nonsense. ive trained many dozens of folks over the past 20 years. i have never sent them out until they were skilled, knew the rules, and had a clear concept of what our sport is. many are now knights, royal peers, and the current king of atlantia. a few are gone, sure, but it wasnt because i made it too hard for them to play. and i would not care at all if the folks that play with us once or twice a year (the thing i was commenting on by the way) never came back. especially if those are the mystical “lowest common denominatorâ€

Understood. I would be lying if I said I had never seen a fighter that just shouldn't be out there but it is certainly the exception not the norm. YMMV depending on where you are at.

Fortunately there are usually enough of us veteran fighters out there who can spot those folks from a mile away and do something about it and lend some more teaching and advice in a pinch. I've certainly grabbed guys in the middle of battles who were giving the dear in the headlights look and were clearly clueless as to what they were supposed to be doing. I have corrected them or told them to stick close to me and do as I say if they wanted to stay safe (and keep others safe in the process).

I think that actually the authorized but still developing people tend to be the most dangerous. Generally once they have the basics of combat down and can throw some shots but aren't yet to the point where they can hit every small opening.

The reason for that is that in many cases power can make up for skill. When you are really pushing for that small opening a bit more speed is always helpful, but its hard to increase speed too much without increasing the power to throw the shot... at least while you're still developing technique. And if someone is partially blocking a shot, getting just a piece of their weapon/shield on a shot, a bit more power will make the shot "good" even if they get a bit on the shot.
So they throw shots a bit harder to make up for technique, speed, and accuracy, which isn't a problem if people are partially blocking them, but when they do the same thing and its a clean shot it ends up being excessive.

Count Johnathan wrote:If some of you want to go and harm one another for the sake of looks (which is a minute difference at best) despite our best efforts to provide ample warning, there is nothing we can do to stop you.

yeah... that sounds right...

How is it that *your* experiences and opinions need to be respected, but the *many* other people, in *many* other Kingdoms... are just out to hurt others for 'looks'.
Why is "your warning" supposed to be so valid, yet all the experiences of all the other participants.... isn't?

What we seem to have here, it that the majority of Kingdoms have tested this and found them to be safe. Atenveldt tested them and found them to be dangerous.... so now all those other people are being reckless because they don't submit to your experiences... when so many more others tested them and found them safe.

It won't stop most of us from continuing to travel and participating with our brother kingdoms either. We play hard, we play with intensity that some don't seem to understand but we don't like to see our fellow fighters injured regardless.

I understand it. You want to throw shots at a '9', so please, for your opponents sake, keep using the 3" tips.
I, on the other hand, will hit my opponent the same way, by using a smaller tip, and throwing at a '7'.