The Armour Archive

Quoting Johnathan
"One thing that ALL of us know regardless of the math is that these things, for whatever reason, hit a whole lot harder when thrown with the same amount of force as a spear with a 3" tip. "

Sorry your Excellency but I disagree. Please don't presume to have the ability to speak for everyone. I have fought with them, against them, hit people, and been hit by them, many times. I not only don't believe that they hit too hard, I believe that they are lighter and easier to control leading to an actual reduction in overall force being used. Just like a three inch tip, I have, at times, hit people, both head and body, and had my shot called light. Just as with a three inch tip, there are occasions when my opponent has felt that the shot has been too hard. Just like with any other spear, too hard generally comes from the opponent not realizing the shot was coming or one or the other stepping forward just as the shot originated. This is a full contact game that we play and each and every one of us is responsible for the safety of the others around us. If you ever come to Gulf Wars you will find that the culture and environment is much different from that of Estrella. Gulf Wars is the war without enemies for a reason. We like to enjoy our nights together off the field after having contested during the day. We don't, as a general rule, hit as hard or require as much force to call ourselves dead as the principals do at Estrella. That's not better or worse, its just different. The two inch spear tips have been found by the principals involved at Gulf Wars to work within our culture and so will be used at this Gulf Wars. If we are wrong, the injury reports will show it, and just as hardwood shafts were eliminated, so too can these be. Just for the record, though, I don't believe that will happen.

these things, for whatever reason, hit a whole lot harder when thrown with the same amount of force as a spear with a 3" tip.

It seems we are all in agreement about that no matter if we feel that the difference is "too hard" or not.

Except for Kerry Pratt I mean.

We like to enjoy our nights together off the field after having contested during the day.

Weird. At Estrella we play tiddly winks during the day and raid each others camps getting into drunken brawls at night.

Thorstenn wrote:I agree with you Sir Roland, Somewhere communication broke down. As I am not the moderator I have no idea on which end it did break down or maybe on both ends. Who was your predecessor?

Next, did you report any negative statements in your reports to the SEM on your quarterly reports? That would be a second venue for him to see a issue arise.

Thor-

Roland Ansbacher wrote:I must be a special flavor of moron. I am logging onto the SCAMarshal.org website right now.

Okay, nothing on the General Discussion board. Lesse... nope, nothing anywhere else. Wait, I don't have a heading for Kingdom Earl Marshals - General Discussion. It must be a hidden board.

Looking everywhere for a poll... no evidence yet. In fact, no polls at all! I am now wondering if I am even in the right place. Is there another board that I should know about?

So I go into the User Control Panel, and there is an option for usergroups, one being Kingdom Earl Marshals... so I click the selection box to identify myself as a KEM. Now I have to wait for approval. Let's see if after I am recognized as a KEM the poll will show up.

I've already applied and been granted membership to the board, and now I have to go and hopefully stumble across the Usergroup options and select the right one... and maybe I'll get to give feedback about a decision made by the Marshalate? this is assuming, of course, that by hitting the magic button the poll will show up.

Frankly, this in no way inspires my confidence... now I'm worried about what other important things i may be missing because I can't find the right damn buttons. Unless I am an idiot. which is very likely because I did accept the job.

So Thorstenn, how can I, or my predecessor, not represent something that I have to search for in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'.

It seems to me there is a serious lack of communication between our kingdom, at least, and the SEM. I don't think it's intentional, that's just the way it is. Hopefully, this issue will help to resolve some of these problems.

Frankly, I blame technology. A few phone calls would probably solve most of the problems...

Sir Roland Ansbacher, OL
Atenveldt Earl Marshal

LOL

* People of Earth, your attention, please. This is Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz of the Galactic Hyperspace Planning Council. As you will no doubt be aware, the plans for development of the outlying regions of the Galaxy require the building of a hyperspatial express route through your star system. And regrettably, your planet is one of those scheduled for demolition. The process will take slightly less than two of your Earth minutes. Thank you.

* There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams.

Ah, His Majesty is well versed in the Classics...

I've got my towel, I'll be OK

Thor.

That's it, we need someone to build a spear chucking robot so we can scientifically test these things. Who's got a pile of cash to burn sitting around?

We have ballistsas.... same thing, right?

Quote...Frankly, I blame technology. A few phone calls would probably solve most of the problems...

Sir Roland Ansbacher, OL
Atenveldt Earl Marshal


I do know this... The SEM was and is available to me by e-mail and phone for any and all questions, including those to do with 2"tips, at anytime.

This has become very close to stupid.

Come on down to Gulf War and try the 2" tips out in the friendly war, yall.

Ritter Asoph Hearts
Former EM Ansteorra
Gulf War MIC XX

Isabella E wrote:That's it, we need someone to build a spear chucking robot so we can scientifically test these things. Who's got a pile of cash to burn sitting around?

Doesn't Nissan do testing like this?

Isabella E wrote:That's it, we need someone to build a spear chucking robot so we can scientifically test these things. Who's got a pile of cash to burn sitting around?

Maybe we should hire Mythbusters.

Putting my devils advocate hat on....

Do you think the 2" tips would be legal everywhere if one took a 6.28" long, 3" wide strip of 1/2" thick foam and wrapped it around the circumferance?

I actually thought up a rig to test these things. A crude test granted, but still a test.

Make a frame about 6-7 feet high and 10-15 feet long. All you really need is a beam along the top to hang rope from and an open area for a weighted target to hang. Have a scale to one side of the weighted target that is clearly marked for distance. (Think mythbusters and the high speed test shots) Hang a 10 pound weight from the beam so it has free range of motion. Hang a spear from 2 ropes to keep it aligned and so that it can swing freely. Pull the spear back a few feet so that it will swing forward under its own weight. Have a camera set up to measure how far the weighted target moves when it is struck. Swap the spears. Do it again. If you want to see if the spear hits harder when it is under weight you can hang a weight underneath it attached to the ropes that will increase the momentum.

Replace the rope with a rigid swing arm, with a mechanical release at a set height.

Replace the weighted target with either a clay/putty "plug" that compresses (2, same weight, length, diameter and material) or a scale that read to the nearest milligram. Put a video camera on the target w/ graduated "speed grid" and one on the scale.


.

I'd just love to see some data from little impact sensor doodads in a controlled environment where you take the human part of the equation out.

Well, the putty or the scale would do that.

If the plugs are identical within acceptable tolerances, the one that gets hit harder deforms more.

The scale simply weighs the impact as pressure.


.

In a test like that the total pressure output would not be different at all other than a possible weight variable. The problem with that sort of test is that the PPSI would be different meaning that the same amount of force exerted on the target overall may be consistent but the same total force to a smaller more concentrated surface area is going to yield a very different feeling to the target. Measuring the total force output would not reveal a difference. In fact it should be exactly the same if both test items were weighted exactly the same.

Example...

Pressure is the force per unit area applied in a direction perpendicular to the surface of an object.

As an example of varying pressures, a finger can be pressed against a wall without making any lasting impression; however, the same finger pushing a thumbtack can easily damage the wall. Although the force applied to the surface is the same, the thumbtack applies more pressure because the point concentrates that force into a smaller area.

Another example is a common kitchen knife. If we try and push the knife through the fruit with the flat side it obviously won't cut. But if we use the thin side, it will cut smoothly. The reason is that the flat side has a greater surface area (less concentrated pressure) and so it does not cut the fruit. When we use the thin side, the surface area is reduced and so it cuts the fruit easily and quickly. Same amount of force but different PPSI.

So one would have to measure the concentration of the force (pressure) to find the difference. You can't just measure the total force output to find the right answer. Using the test suggested with a swing arm and some sort of pressure plate you may get the answer that you want if you like the smaller tips but it would not be correct.

Just read Diglachs post while writing this. The putty idea will show a difference but not give any sort of actual data without some special math that I don't know how to do. LOL

Given the possibility of dispersion of force across a bigger surface, using the scale to measure impact will also work for your hypothesis.

Measuring the max weight the scale displays (at point of contact).


.

Doorman wrote:I actually thought up a rig to test these things. A crude test granted, but still a test.

Make a frame about 6-7 feet high and 10-15 feet long. All you really need is a beam along the top to hang rope from and an open area for a weighted target to hang. Have a scale to one side of the weighted target that is clearly marked for distance. (Think mythbusters and the high speed test shots) Hang a 10 pound weight from the beam so it has free range of motion. Hang a spear from 2 ropes to keep it aligned and so that it can swing freely. Pull the spear back a few feet so that it will swing forward under its own weight. Have a camera set up to measure how far the weighted target moves when it is struck. Swap the spears. Do it again. If you want to see if the spear hits harder when it is under weight you can hang a weight underneath it attached to the ropes that will increase the momentum.

To engage in reductio ad absurdum (because, seriously, there is not any debate as to whether or not the smaller point has a greater perceived impact than the larger point given the same driving force),

Make one fiberglass spear with a 3" dia head.

Make one with the 2" Mandrake heads approved by the SEM.

Put them both on the ground.

Step back and see which one injures you, without any outside force being applied to either one.

Just on a bet, I don't think Either spear is going to rabidly attack you all by itself

At this point all of you might as well drop trou and lay 'em on the table and get it over with. For the most part these 12 pages of wasted bandwidth consists of "did so!" "did not!" drivel.

If I was gonna do this experiment I would get some of this:

http://www.tekscan.com/pressure-indicating-film.html

and have 30 blindfolded spear fighters jab a volunteer in a breastplate with this film mounted on it with a 3 " and a 2" tip 5 times each.
Then do some statistics.

That would be cool Nissan. Unfortunately as awesome as that would be it wouldn't remove the opinions about whether the increased pressure is "too much" or not. That is purely subjective.

The only thing that is going to tell us that is time and if the frequency of injury goes up. Suck thing is that we are terrible at reporting injuries so even that is misleading other than injuries that require on the field medical attention.

Yup. Thats why I propose using a human for testing. After 300 spear thrusts to our volunteer we should be able to see if we have injured our test subject.

maybe get a chest x-ray prior to and after testing.

Nissan Maxima wrote:Yup. Thats why I propose using a human for testing. After 300 spear thrusts to our volunteer we should be able to see if we have injured our test subject.

maybe get a chest x-ray prior to and after testing.

+1 love you nissan

Nissan Maxima wrote:If I was gonna do this experiment I would get some of this:

http://www.tekscan.com/pressure-indicating-film.html

and have 30 blindfolded spear fighters jab a volunteer in a breastplate with this film mounted on it with a 3 " and a 2" tip 5 times each.
Then do some statistics.

Neat stuff.

I used it at my previous job.
I seem to recall mounting a few samples to a helmet and hitting it with rattan.

Tom

*zip
*FLOP
OK, who's next?

salty dog wrote:At this point all of you might as well drop trou and lay 'em on the table and get it over with. For the most part these 12 pages of wasted bandwidth consists of "did so!" "did not!" drivel.

Olaf -

I would be, but there are bandwidth limitations.... hate to lock up everyones computer while it loads....

Diglach mac Cein wrote:Olaf -

I would be, but there are bandwidth limitations.... hate to lock up everyones computer while it loads....

salty dog wrote:At this point all of you might as well drop trou and lay 'em on the table and get it over with. For the most part these 12 pages of wasted bandwidth consists of "did so!" "did not!" drivel.

Well, thanks for your well thought out and highly relevant contribution.

Now put that thing away.

or...
I could just allow guys all overthe world to try them out for a year and tell me what they think!

(just couldn't help myself... sorry... continue with the science stuff......)

Count Johnathan wrote:In a test like that the total pressure output would not be different at all other than a possible weight variable. The problem with that sort of test is that the PPSI would be different meaning that the same amount of force exerted on the target overall may be consistent but the same total force to a smaller more concentrated surface area is going to yield a very different feeling to the target. Measuring the total force output would not reveal a difference. In fact it should be exactly the same if both test items were weighted exactly the same.

Example...

Pressure is the force per unit area applied in a direction perpendicular to the surface of an object.

As an example of varying pressures, a finger can be pressed against a wall without making any lasting impression; however, the same finger pushing a thumbtack can easily damage the wall. Although the force applied to the surface is the same, the thumbtack applies more pressure because the point concentrates that force into a smaller area.

Another example is a common kitchen knife. If we try and push the knife through the fruit with the flat side it obviously won't cut. But if we use the thin side, it will cut smoothly. The reason is that the flat side has a greater surface area (less concentrated pressure) and so it does not cut the fruit. When we use the thin side, the surface area is reduced and so it cuts the fruit easily and quickly. Same amount of force but different PPSI.

So one would have to measure the concentration of the force (pressure) to find the difference. You can't just measure the total force output to find the right answer. Using the test suggested with a swing arm and some sort of pressure plate you may get the answer that you want if you like the smaller tips but it would not be correct.

Just read Diglachs post while writing this. The putty idea will show a difference but not give any sort of actual data without some special math that I don't know how to do. LOL

Will be needing a new keyboard now...

Diglach mac Cein wrote:Olaf -

I would be, but there are bandwidth limitations.... hate to lock up everyones computer while it loads....

Just got my tips in today and had a question on how people are attaching them. More specificaly are you covering the whole thing in tape or just taping the bottom half?

When i tape my great weapons na pole arms with them i angle the first layer then the oposite angle around again and then go around it with a cross over x with a different color for a thrust tip and it only covers about half of it .. its wokred outthe best for me