Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:41 pm
Brandr wrote:Brian Price has always dealt fairly and honorably with me & mine both on a personal level and a business level and I respect him for it.
Jason Willis
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Brandr wrote:Brian Price has always dealt fairly and honorably with me & mine both on a personal level and a business level and I respect him for it.
Jason Willis
As I have stated in one of the various threads on this subject, I have had dealing with him and found him less than honorable, admittedly my experience (lying repeatedly about shipping an item, and finally shipping it when he got sick of me harassing him about it) is one of his lesser missdeeds, but I'm not just joining ion on the thread to "throw stones"Kilkenny wrote:I shall have to throw you into that class of people who sit around waiting for the opportunity to throw their little stones, without regard to their targets.
Were I in his shoes with a trail of misdeeds that extends for decades, I would not expect anyone to be willing to stand up for me or vouch for my character, and even less would I expect someone to state they respected me.Consider whether or not you would want someone to stand up for you
No, you expect far too much from the legal system. He operates his business internationally and is very clear on how little chance of prosecution he faces from non-Americans. It seems to fit well into his modus operandi.andras wrote:I'm serious about passing on your evidence to the appropriate authorities.
If you have evidence of fraud or serious plagiarism, it's your duty to do so.
If you are wrong about the quality or veracity of your evidence, you put Mr. Price in a position where he can mount a definitive defense.
As it stands, his reputation is sullied and he cannot defend himself from the claims against him.
Give him his day in court or recant your accusations.
Christian H. Tobler wrote:Hello all,
Ok. I've been holding my tongue on this for a long time now, but I see more and more inquiries about the state of Brian's business and I can no longer remain silent in good conscience, despite the possible personal fallout.shinyhalo wrote: Hmm infamy? Is this the brian price who stole thousands of dollars from people wanting to play in the SCA and then never delivered the armor? It happens often it seems.
So, here's a former Chivalry Bookshelf author's perspective.
I have not seen one dime from Mr. Price in the form of royalties in over three years now. I stopped trying to extract said monies in 2007, after it became clear that any attempts at either getting paid or even receiving copies of my own books were going to simply be ignored. Phone calls and emails went unanswered, and the books and cheques stopped coming.
I am not alone in this experience. Mr. Price continues to reprint and reprint my titles without any form of remuneration. He's done this to other authors too, some of whom have *never* received royalties.
Regardless of what we may think of his book that is in question here, in doing business with the man, you're supporting a dishonest person who has betrayed the chivalric principles he claims to support while lining his pockets with ill-gained money.
It truly pains me to have to do this. I worked with Chivalry Bookshelf for several years, and once considered Brian a friend. But this kind of behavior has nothing to do with chivalry, and even less to do with friendship, and it's time to start looking out for others so that they don't go through what I and others have gone through.
Yours most truly,
Christian
Fettered Cock Pewters has carried an 'elephant and castle' since early 2002, when FC Pewters first went online - at least, according to the Wayback Machine. Unfortunately, the photo isn't stored, but the text description is consistent from early 2002 through to mid-2006, and later caches of the site do include the pic.BrianRPrice wrote: ...I believed it was an honest misunderstading by the FC people, but, in order to be complete, here is what happened. I commissioned sculpting, molds and pewter castings from FC. We set the terms by email, and on the Ellefante pin, the first project, my commission appeared for sale on the FC website even before I'd received the ones I paid for. I found this distressing, as we had intended to use it for the Schola Saint George, so I contacted them and secured the mold rights for the rest of the three.
It was the badges Brian was selling at Pennsic that year, the ones with the maker's mark filed off the back, that really upset Kes.BrianRPrice wrote: They refused to grant it for the ellefante, however. We paid several thousand dollars for the sculpting and molds, which is WORK FOR HIRE. That means, we can create derivative works (for the three pins, but not for the ellefante). We did then create some in sterling silver and brass, which FC did not offer.
This isn't primarily a collections issue, based on the aired grievances, it's an intellectual property rights issue, which is pretty easy to prove in court if there's evidence of a breach in contract (which Mr. Price's post may constitute, considering his admittance of nonpayment to authors their royalties, however small they may be).Kel Rekuta wrote: The reality of commercial legal action is one of expense versus expected return. Price is fully aware that his individual creditors are unable to realize any gain from legal action due to the Byzantine nature of modern legal systems. Reputation in business is inestimable in hard currency. Once exposed, disreputable practice can be curtailed. Goodwill is hard won and easily lost. What goes around, comes around. Good riddance!
You and anyone else who owns a copy of the Chivalry Bookshelf edition can determine for themselves whether it is true by comparing it to the William Morris edition, which is available at the Morris Online Edition hosted by the Libraries of the University of Iowa.JohannM wrote: Ironically I had debated whether or not to use Brian's translation in my thesis instead of the one in Caxton. I guess it might not have made any difference in the end
If this is true, that is naughty....very naughty
The only person(s) who have legal standing to report fraud are those against whom the fraud has been committed.andras wrote:I'm serious about passing on your evidence to the appropriate authorities.
If you have evidence of fraud or serious plagiarism, it's your duty to do so.
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Hardly.andras wrote:If you are wrong about the quality or veracity of your evidence, you put Mr. Price in a position where he can mount a definitive defense.
As it stands, his reputation is sullied and he cannot defend himself from the claims against him.
He can seek his own day in court! I have the right to speak the truth anywhere and I am not his nanny.andras wrote:Give him his day in court or recant your accusations.
It may be difficult to accept, but there are very few people, no matter how dastardly, who have actually screwed over every single person they've been in contact with.chris19d wrote:As I have stated in one of the various threads on this subject, I have had dealing with him and found him less than honorable, admittedly my experience (lying repeatedly about shipping an item, and finally shipping it when he got sick of me harassing him about it) is one of his lesser missdeeds, but I'm not just joining ion on the thread to "throw stones"Kilkenny wrote:I shall have to throw you into that class of people who sit around waiting for the opportunity to throw their little stones, without regard to their targets.
Were I in his shoes with a trail of misdeeds that extends for decades, I would not expect anyone to be willing to stand up for me or vouch for my character, and even less would I expect someone to state they respected me.Consider whether or not you would want someone to stand up for you
Admittedly its not just the sca but to me it seems more prevalent here than elsewhere, theres always someone willing to step forward and excuse the actions of a wayward armorer who made off with peoples money, or some other miscreant.
In case it would help any would-be readers, copies of Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship : Sigmund Ringeck's Commentaries on Johannes Liechtenauer's Verse and Fighting with the German Longsword can be found at a number of libraries via WorldCat by clicking on the links I've embedded in their titles.Dietrich von Stroheim wrote:
Christian, I have been recommending your Fighting with the German Longsword, to many beginning and intermediate SCA greatsword fighters.
This information you have brought for was entirely unknown to me, and I will have to reconsider how I handle this. On the one hand, I find your book valuable and useful to those who want to learn the longsword/greatsword.
After reading your sad, indeed, positively piteous tale of 2006 and the alleged financial decline of Chivalry Bookshelf, I visited your website, "Chivalry Bookshelf/Revival Enterprises" where, to my surprise, I saw that five of your 10 "Top Products" as of today are books (including Christian Tobler's Fighting with the German Longsword) and the Agilitas DVD:BrianRPrice wrote:1) On the whole, I have *lost* money on the bookshelf, not "lined my pockets" with it. The project stated with a $50k investment by my wife, Ann, and over the years we fed it another $110k, rather than taking money out. I also gave up a very lucrative technology post in order to give it a shot. This state of affairs is what really drove the development of the second business, Revival.us. From the start, it was clear that the Revival business was rapidly overtaking CB, and in order to feed my family, the Revival business was the one that we continued to develop.
2) We paid royalties until late 2006, when the cash-flow for CB came sharply down. The biggest factor in the dramatic reduction in available funds came with my huge investment in Christian Tobler's In Service of the Duke. While beautiful and a masterpiece my Christian, this single project ran over-budget and came in at just short of $50k. To date, we have sold just $21k in sales for it. I had assumed, wrongly, that the book's costs would be recouped in a year, but that assessment was wrong. Unfortunately, a $30k hit in a struggling business is more than significant, it is catastrophic.
3) At the same time, also in 2006, the French magazine which we distributed, Medieval History Magazine, abruptly and without warning went out of business, leaving us holding about $20k in subscription commitments for a magazine which was now unavailable. At this was a French company who went bankrupt (they had a very fine line of magazines), we had no recourse. We did, however, either refund or give 100% purchase gift certificates. Technically this debt belonged to Harnois, as all of the funds had been sent to them, but we did not want to leave all of these customers holding the bag, so we made up the difference. It was expensive, but it needed to be done and was the right thing to do. Unfortunately, it came right as In Service of the Duke was going through production.
4) We lost our European distributor in 2006, as the founder of the Greenhill Books, Lionel Leventhal, was replaced by his son. With that transition their business reshuffled, and payments sent to us fell to a very small trickle. A subsequent distributor has sold even less and, in both cases, substantial stocks of books were lost.
Naturally, I wondered what your "Top Products" were by the end of 2006, so I took a trip down memory lane with the Wayback Machine. Imagine my surprise to read on the 12-31-2006 snapshot of your homepage that:1. 14th century shoes
2. Light Sparring Gloves
3. Swordsman's Companion
4. DVD -Ochs Liechtenauer Longsword I
5. Fighting with the German Longsword
6. Arte of Defence
7. Swordsman's Gloves
8. Kevlar - reinforced Light Sparring Gloves
9. Talhoffer 1467 Rubber Hammer Head
10. SPADA: An Anthology of Swordsmanship...
I then wondered what percentage of your "Top Products" consisted of Chivalry Bookshelf books and DVDs in 2007, so I looked at the Wayback Machine's snaphot for 2-14-2007:1.) Swordsman's Companion
2.) 14th century shoes
3.) Light Sparring Gloves
4.) Medieval History Magazine
5.) Arte of Defence
6.) Fighting with the German Longsword
7.) SPADA: An Anthology of Swordsmanship...
8.) Swordsman's Gloves
9.) DVD -Ochs Liechtenauer Longsword I
10.) Medieval Sword and Shield
Again, six of the 10 were Chivalry Bookshelf books and DVDs and. curiously, Medieval History Magazine was another. Should I note here that Christian Tobeler's Fighting with the German Longsword seems to fall pretty steadily at #5 or #6 among your "Top Products"?1. Swordsman's Companion
2. 14th century shoes
3. Light Sparring Gloves
4. Medieval History Magazine
5. Arte of Defence
6. Fighting with the German Longsword
7. SPADA: An Anthology of Swordsmanship...
8. DVD -Ochs Liechtenauer Longsword I
9. Swordsman's Gloves
10. Medieval Sword and Shield
For 6-08-2007:1. Swordsman's Companion
2. 14th century shoes
3. Light Sparring Gloves
4. Medieval History Magazine
5. Arte of Defence
6. Fighting with the German Longsword
7. SPADA: An Anthology of Swordsmanship...
8. DVD -Ochs Liechtenauer Longsword I
9. Swordsman's Gloves
10. Medieval Sword and Shield
For 7-04-2007:1. Swordsman's Companion
2. 14th century shoes
3. Light Sparring Gloves
4. Arte of Defence
5. Medieval History Magazine
6. Fighting with the German Longsword
7. DVD -Ochs Liechtenauer Longsword I
8. Swordsman's Gloves
9. SPADA: An Anthology of Swordsmanship...
10. Medieval Sword and Shield
For 8-09-2007:1. 14th century shoes
2. Swordsman's Companion
3. Light Sparring Gloves
4. Arte of Defence
5. Medieval History Magazine
6. Fighting with the German Longsword
7. DVD -Ochs Liechtenauer Longsword I
8. Swordsman's Gloves
9. SPADA: An Anthology of Swordsmanship...
10. Medieval Sword and Shield
For 10-11-2007:1. 14th century shoes
2. Light Sparring Gloves
3. Swordsman's Companion
4. Arte of Defence
5. Fighting with the German Longsword
6. Medieval History Magazine
7. DVD -Ochs Liechtenauer Longsword I
8. Swordsman's Gloves
9. SPADA: An Anthology of Swordsmanship...
10. Medieval Sword and Shield
And for 12-15-2007:1. 14th century shoes
2. Light Sparring Gloves
3. Swordsman's Companion
4. Arte of Defence
5. Fighting with the German Longsword
6. DVD -Ochs Liechtenauer Longsword I
7. Swordsman's Gloves
8. SPADA: An Anthology of Swordsmanship...
9. Medieval Sword and Shield
10. CB EXCLUSIVE! Paulus Kal Facsimile limited numbered edition
Let's note that seven of the 10 Top Products listed, above, were for Chivalry Bookshelf books or DVDs.1. 14th century shoes
2. Light Sparring Gloves
3. Swordsman's Companion
4. Arte of Defence
5. DVD -Ochs Liechtenauer Longsword I
6. Fighting with the German Longsword
7. Swordsman's Gloves
8. SPADA: An Anthology of Swordsmanship...
9. Medieval Sword and Shield
10. CB EXCLUSIVE! Paulus Kal Facsimile limited numbered edition
But not a penny, still, in back royalties for Christian Tobler, eh?1. 14th century shoes
2. Light Sparring Gloves
3. Swordsman's Companion
4. DVD -Ochs Liechtenauer Longsword I
5. Fighting with the German Longsword
6. Arte of Defence
7. Swordsman's Gloves
8. SPADA: An Anthology of Swordsmanship...
9. Kevlar - reinforced Light Sparring Gloves
10. Talhoffer 1467 Rubber Hammer Head
both those volumes showed up consistently on your "10 Top Products" list throughout 2007 and SPADA was still appearing on that list in 2009 and even did today!...SPADA and Medieval Sword and Shield sell better, or did, but have also lost their market momentum. There is little on the balance sheet there, either...
It states at the bottom of that page, "Last Updated on Monday, 01 February 2010 10:53," although the corporate charter had been forfeited on August 7, 2009!The SSG is incorporated in the State of Texas and has applied for our 401(c)-3 non-profit status.
But if the corporation no longer exists, who's covered by an insurance policy? How could a school insurance policy effectively cover either your members or the other instructors if the school no longer exists legally?Your membership supports the continued development of the community site and our insurance.
No; it sucks. But a lot of us have been holding our tongues for years out of common courtesy -- or because it takes you that long to realize that a pleasant guy you'd really like to respect just like you would anybody else has really chosen to screw you that hard -- and at some point, for the sake of the public interest, the dam has to burst.Gerhard von Liebau wrote:BEST. THREAD. EVA!!!!
Your right, In hindsight the I was wrong, the comment was ill conceived and unnecessary, my apologies to you and Brandr.Kilkenny wrote:It may be difficult to accept, but there are very few people, no matter how dastardly, who have actually screwed over every single person they've been in contact with.chris19d wrote:As I have stated in one of the various threads on this subject, I have had dealing with him and found him less than honorable, admittedly my experience (lying repeatedly about shipping an item, and finally shipping it when he got sick of me harassing him about it) is one of his lesser missdeeds, but I'm not just joining ion on the thread to "throw stones"Kilkenny wrote:I shall have to throw you into that class of people who sit around waiting for the opportunity to throw their little stones, without regard to their targets.
Were I in his shoes with a trail of misdeeds that extends for decades, I would not expect anyone to be willing to stand up for me or vouch for my character, and even less would I expect someone to state they respected me.Consider whether or not you would want someone to stand up for you
Admittedly its not just the sca but to me it seems more prevalent here than elsewhere, theres always someone willing to step forward and excuse the actions of a wayward armorer who made off with peoples money, or some other miscreant.
You've got a beef with Brian - ok, it's unfortunate and you can stand over there with the group of people who also have beefs with Brian... it seems to be a disturbingly large group.
You do not have a beef with Brandr, so why did you attack him?
You have had a problem(s) with Brian. Brandr has not. That he says so in no way harms you - yet your response was an attack.
So far, if you read what is written, I have seen not one defense or excuse for Brian but from his own mouth.
Stating that I have not personally had problems is not defending him, but reporting a data point that differs from the majority being reported.
But of course, when people are swift to attack for merely reporting a different experience, the odds of anyone stepping up in actual defense decrease proportionately.
No Mr. Smith: what wouldn't be chivalric is allowing a malicious business to move forward, continuing to prey upon unsuspecting future victims. Caveat emptor is only meaningful when the buyer truly is aware. A prime chivalric duty is the defense of the innocent.Dave Smith wrote: Mr. Tobler: Regardless of your noble intentions for speaking up on internet forums, it simply does not seem particularly "chivalric" (since that seems to be the word of the day). I've always held you in some esteem Mr. Tobler, and what goes on between Mr. Price and yourself doesn't interest me a great deal, but this whole public posting business seems like it should be beneath you.
I truly hope you didn't miss the sarcasm and irony in my statement... This couldn't possibly be the best thread ever. In fact, if there was one thread I can remember on the Archive that I'd like to go away (along with its reasons) it would definitely be this one... As they say, what comes around, goes around. Eventually someone is going to pin Brian Price and make him wish he'd not done a lot of things he has got away with. It's a shame from every angle.Russ Mitchell wrote:No; it sucks.Gerhard von Liebau wrote:BEST. THREAD. EVA!!!!
Alas, this is so, Gerhard.Gerhard von Liebau wrote:It's a shame from every angle.
But have you noticed how this thread has now reached the status of a confessional? "I've been quiet for years about this too, but now that you mention it..." It started off with one complaint. Then two. Then three. Now it's a mob. How do you suppose that happened? And why are all the stories so similar?Dave Smith wrote:I have noticed that the fire is largely being fed by the same people over and over again, but that's beside the point.
I disagree most strongly. Ours is a community and a small one. All it takes is one sour experience to drive a newbie away. I found the AA initially because I wished to start fighting SCA and was shopping for armour. Plenty of other people find this site the same way. By allowing someone who takes money and doesn't provide product to exist here, we're harming our community. Every failed transaction (from any merchant!) is to be avoided. Every failure lessens us as a community.Dave Smith wrote:In my opinion, and maybe mine alone (which is fine), this is not the place to air dirty laundry.
It has been my experience on the AA that occasionally the ONLY way you can get some people to respond is a gigantic public shaming. Please note that Mr. Tobler said that this post was the only thing that has managed to get Mr. Price to respond since 2007. If this is what it takes, then this is what it takes. Other lesser efforts produced no results.Dave Smith wrote:If you have a problem with Mr. Price (especially one of this scope), seek redress elsewhere.
I disagree here as well. I think that it is most knightly to stand up to a grave injustice. And to warn others as well. Hiding from a problem simply because it would be socially inconvenient is (in my opinion, of course) not knightly. It can be difficult. Google the phrase "Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?" for further details. You have to keep these things in context. We are actually trying to recreate ancient chivalry here. What you are witnessing is correct. Con men get run out of town covered in tar and feathers - and that's if they are lucky.Dave Smith wrote:Mr. Tobler: Regardless of your noble intentions for speaking up on internet forums, it simply does not seem particularly "chivalric" (since that seems to be the word of the day). I've always held you in some esteem Mr. Tobler, and what goes on between Mr. Price and yourself doesn't interest me a great deal, but this whole public posting business seems like it should be beneath you.
This single sentence is why I am writing this post to you.Dave Smith wrote:It will all come out in the wash, just as these things always do.
I could agree if it related to interactions between individuals on a personal level, but this is the free market. The experiences of other actors within the system allows us to make an educated decision on who we want to conduct business with. There is no guarantee that this information will be used wisely, or that the growing consensus is completely accurate, but the free flow of information is critical to the correct operation of the market. It is up to us to decide to reject the information, or how to use it.Dave Smith wrote:There is a place for issues like this to be decided, and a public forum is not one of them.
What I don't understand is if this person was so bad, why did it take this many years to report it to the community? If it is true what everyone is saying hasn't the silence (for this long a time) served to aid and abeit this wrong doing to others?Christian H. Tobler wrote:No Mr. Smith: what wouldn't be chivalric is allowing a malicious business to move forward, continuing to prey upon unsuspecting future victims. Caveat emptor is only meaningful when the buyer truly is aware. A prime chivalric duty is the defense of the innocent.Dave Smith wrote: Mr. Tobler: Regardless of your noble intentions for speaking up on internet forums, it simply does not seem particularly "chivalric" (since that seems to be the word of the day). I've always held you in some esteem Mr. Tobler, and what goes on between Mr. Price and yourself doesn't interest me a great deal, but this whole public posting business seems like it should be beneath you.
I find it suspect that you claim these matters are of little interest to you, yet you feel the need to post about them: your *first* post on this forum. You apparently have a great deal of interest indeed.
If you find the behaviors identified here by more than a dozen posters acceptable, if you find their discussion the mere airing of 'dirty laundry', then I believe I'll bear your disappointment in me quite well.
Regards,
Christian