"The Sword in Two Hands by Brian Price" review wan

[Maeryk]

Morgan,

It wasn't far off what I thought early on. It seemed that the KSCAs were waiting for a ten year legal battle to be finished until action would be taken. But what I thought I saw was not what I saw and just seemed to be what I saw.

As Count Johnathan hinted to, things are happening. I think the KSCAs and other "powers that be" just doesn't want us to watch sausage being made, merely sausage being served (with a good ale, etc...). The behind-the-scenes stuff might not be great to see. For example some threads I've read here. It's not always great watching sausage being made.



With respect,

-Aaron

And why did you lack the confidence in the KSCA to police one of their own? Could it be that the past is a good indicator of the future? I am glad the KSCA are taking action but to do it behind closed doors lacks the transparency that is needed. It continues the image that the nobility don’t feel they are answerable to anybody outside of their own little group. This lack of transparency is what got this big lawsuit that caused the hike in membership fees. I am not asking they give out every little detail but to publicly in some way, shape, or form to give updates and a thorough account at the end of the investigation.

You are talking out your ass now. If you don't actually know the details of the lawsuit, and what led to it, then please don't speak about it. All you do is spread rumor and disinformation.

Maybe you need to go back and look as Astroth's post. Oh and BTW You can kiss my ass while I am talking out of it.

Which post? Because unless you are talking about a different lawsuit that has made a hike in membership fees.. yer still wrong.

[Maeryk]

Adding: Found the post. I will point out you can claim just about anything in a lawsuit.. it's proving it that's the hard part.. and they haven't proven that. The vultures involved in that particular suit see the SCA and it's insurance, as a cash cow they can exploit, and they are attempting to do so.. and quite possibly destroy several completely innocent people's lives in the process, in the name of greed and nothing more.

And, before you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.. I live here. I was there. I know the main players in the game, I know the situations alleged, and I know the reality which doesn't line up with the accusations.

And I'm not debating whether or not the crime happened.. that's water under the bridge at this part. But I'll honestly tell you NOBODY knew.. not until it popped up in the paper. NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING.

It was the ultimate bombshell.

[Aerimus13]

Morgan,

It wasn't far off what I thought early on. It seemed that the KSCAs were waiting for a ten year legal battle to be finished until action would be taken. But what I thought I saw was not what I saw and just seemed to be what I saw.

As Count Johnathan hinted to, things are happening. I think the KSCAs and other "powers that be" just doesn't want us to watch sausage being made, merely sausage being served (with a good ale, etc...). The behind-the-scenes stuff might not be great to see. For example some threads I've read here. It's not always great watching sausage being made.



With respect,

-Aaron

And why did you lack the confidence in the KSCA to police one of their own? Could it be that the past is a good indicator of the future? I am glad the KSCA are taking action but to do it behind closed doors lacks the transparency that is needed. It continues the image that the nobility don't feel they are answerable to anybody outside of their own little group. This lack of transparency is what got this big lawsuit that caused the hike in membership fees. I am not asking they give out every little detail but to publicly in some way, shape, or form to give updates and a thorough account at the end of the investigation.

You are talking out your ass now. If you don't actually know the details of the lawsuit, and what led to it, then please don't speak about it. All you do is spread rumor and disinformation.

Maybe you need to go back and look as Astroth's post. Oh and BTW You can kiss my ass while I am talking out of it.

Which post? Because unless you are talking about a different lawsuit that has made a hike in membership fees.. yer still wrong.

The lawsuit agains SCA Inc. for allowing pedophiles to molest children and not doing anything about it. And I stand corrected. It was not Astaroth. Someone sent me the link in my mail box. While I might have been talking out of my ass – it was only half my ass. I just want to make sure you kiss the correct side.

[Greg Mele]

Gents,

I really know and care nothing about that, but just to make sure it is clear to all ('cause it wasn't to me) - could we not conflate this with the legal actions I just announced?

Greg

[Maeryk]

Gents,

I really know and care nothing about that, but just to make sure it is clear to all ('cause it wasn't to me) - could we not conflate this with the legal actions I just announced?

Greg

Yup.. took it private. Sorry.

[Greg Mele]

It's OK. Just didn't want people wondering why I was suing the SCA, Inc - not least myself!

[Black Swan Designs]

Greg, Christian et al.

It seems that Chivalry Bookshelf will be at Gulf Wars. Could you please post a list of the titles for which you have not been paid royalties, please? Zubeydah has a good idea which can be expanded on. A succinct list of the affected titles, as well as any other goods which are apparently not CB's to sell can then be disseminated to the various lists. I posted a link to this thread on my FaceBook page, and would do the same with a list of titles.

Chris-

I'm not in the SCA, and you and I are not friends, so this is an objective observation. Keep your belt. Brian was probably a different person 20 years ago when you stood for him. We are all faced with forks in the road on a daily basis. Some of us stay on course, and some of us take the wrong fork. Brian's failings are his own, not yours. JMHO.

Gwen

[Kilkenny]

Morgan,

It wasn't far off what I thought early on. It seemed that the KSCAs were waiting for a ten year legal battle to be finished until action would be taken. But what I thought I saw was not what I saw and just seemed to be what I saw.

With respect,

-Aaron

Also with respect..... I'm unfamiliar with ANY "10 year legal battle." To me, this looks like a lot of years of complaints that stuff was wrong, and only recently have the aggrieved parties really started to START the legal process. Heck, look at one of Greg's most recent posts:

"Since you have chosen to let the deadline to surrender our rights and property lapse, please note that, our offer is hereby rescinded. We will nowpursue any and all civil and criminal avenues that are open to us. "

Is there a list of books that are in question and items that are suspect in all of this?

Now that this legal action has theoretically begun, now that the aggrieved parties seem to be saying more than, "He screwed me. Someone should do something about it" I'm more than willing to stand with Cuan. (Actually, I'd follow that man into hell, he's so inspiring) I won't however apologize for having philosophical notions that spring from Magna Carta and furthered by the founding fathers of the United States... A man deserves his day in court before having his rights stripped, and he deserves to face his accusers. These things now seem to be coming.

I wonder how often people consider how very difficult it actually is to adhere to principles like "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" - complete with concepts like due process and the protection of the rights of all parties.

Especially when someone is swinging a rope around and damning those who aren't helping with the lynching

[Woeg]

Aerimus,

I want to preface what I am about to say with this: I have no dog in this fight, save that I have an immense amount of respect for the scholars that have posted here, and I fully, absolutely support their pursuit of justice against Mr. Price and the wrongs he has committed against them.

That said, your posts on this matter come off as unconstructive, bitter, ill-informed, and accusatory towards folks who have already stated that the matters are being looked into. I get that you would prefer more transparency, I get that you don't like the way knighthood works in the SCA. I don't think it's a perfect system, either. I invite you to start a thread, perhaps in the Philosophy of Chivalry forum, to express what you feel should be changed about the SCA's peerages, a thread I will happily participate in, in the spirit of honest, frank discussion. Hell, I'll start one myself - but in this thread, it feels like more of a distraction from the topic rather than a constructive line of conversation.

[Rey]

With all this criticism of the SCA knights not taking action sooner and not “controlling their own”.
And as the knight who stood up 20 years ago in the belted circle that was considering Brian for Knighthood, and said, "If you consider me a knight, Brian, should be a Knight."
I offer up my belt.

Anyone who goes to collect that belt needs to come through me to get it.

Keep your belt Sir Gaston, you are and always have been a Knight.

Sir Alaric, Duke Sartiano

If every Knight handed back there belt because someone we believed in at the time changed their ways after being elevated, there would be very few Knights.

Rey

[Woeg]

Maeryk beat me to it, by several days...

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... p?t=130853

[Aerimus13]

Aerimus,

I want to preface what I am about to say with this: I have no dog in this fight, save that I have an immense amount of respect for the scholars that have posted here, and I fully, absolutely support their pursuit of justice against Mr. Price and the wrongs he has committed against them.

That said, your posts on this matter come off as unconstructive, bitter, ill-informed, and accusatory towards folks who have already stated that the matters are being looked into. I get that you would prefer more transparency, I get that you don't like the way knighthood works in the SCA. I don't think it's a perfect system, either. I invite you to start a thread, perhaps in the Philosophy of Chivalry forum, to express what you feel should be changed about the SCA's peerages, a thread I will happily participate in, in the spirit of honest, frank discussion. Hell, I'll start one myself - but in this thread, it feels like more of a distraction from the topic rather than a constructive line of conversation.

I don't have a dog in this fight either. But I will call to the carpet people who profess a code and don't live up to it.

I have tried several times to bring up reform on this forum and each time I am attacked and called names. So if it takes me standing and pointing and calling out the hypocrites to get people to see the flaws in the system then that is what I will do. Yea, I am a trolling asshat to some people on here. I don’t care.

[Charlotte J]

This morning, I have posted the following to my kingdom list.

I think that's a good idea, but this thread is a daunting 20 pages and has slogged on far beyond the details of the case and into sockpuppets, philosophical discussions/arguments of chivalry, other SCA cases, etc. For the general reader, I'd suggest linking them to Galleron's concise summation of the situation, which links back to this thread for people who are interested in the gory details.

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... valry.html

Cheers,
Charlotte J (No relation to Lady Charlotte, as far as I know)

[Woeg]

I don't have a dog in this fight either. But I will call to the carpet people who profess a code and don't live up to it.

I have tried several times to bring up reform on this forum and each time I am attacked and called names. So if it takes me standing and pointing and calling out the hypocrites to get people to see the flaws in the system then that is what I will do. Yea, I am a trolling asshat to some people on here. I don’t care.

I'm all for carpet-calling, when you feel it should be done - I'd just like to see it in the appropriate forum, where we can discuss it without cluttering a thread that is only partially related to said issue. Meet ya in the other forum? I'm done in this thread - no more clutter from me!

[Ii Saburou]

I contacted the Gulf Wars staff through their website prior to seeing the note by Greg Mele that he had contacted them (possibly before he sent his letter--I contacted them yesterday). I sent them a link, and thought they should be aware of the specific items being contested. Their very polite response was to thank me for my concern, but that as a legal matter between Mr. Price and the publishers and/or authors of the books, the SCA cannot get involved with mundane legal matters.

So they are aware of what is happening, and I do not envy them, with this coming up so close to the event they are holding.

I hope that the authors can receive their just rights in these matters, and I wish them all luck in pursuing this nasty business. I hope that those of us in the SCA can figure out the right path to take, ourselves--whether individually or as a whole.


-Ii Katsumori

[Zubeydah]

This morning, I have posted the following to my kingdom list.

I think that’s a good idea, but this thread is a daunting 20 pages and has slogged on far beyond the details of the case and into sockpuppets, philosophical discussions/arguments of chivalry, other SCA cases, etc. For the general reader, I’d suggest linking them to Galleron’s concise summation of the situation, which links back to this thread for people who are interested in the gory details.

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... valry.html

Cheers,
Charlotte J (No relation to Lady Charlotte, as far as I know)

That probably would have been wiser/more succinct, but I wanted folks to see the whole kettle of fish: that way, no one could say I was trying to influence their decision. (I decidedly have one: the man is a cad. Makes me want to print out this whole thread and sit near his booth and hand them out.)

[Count Johnathan]

Morgan,

It wasn't far off what I thought early on. It seemed that the KSCAs were waiting for a ten year legal battle to be finished until action would be taken. But what I thought I saw was not what I saw and just seemed to be what I saw.

As Count Johnathan hinted to, things are happening. I think the KSCAs and other "powers that be" just doesn't want us to watch sausage being made, merely sausage being served (with a good ale, etc...). The behind-the-scenes stuff might not be great to see. For example some threads I've read here. It's not always great watching sausage being made.



With respect,

-Aaron

And why did you lack the confidence in the KSCA to police one of their own? Could it be that the past is a good indicator of the future? I am glad the KSCA are taking action but to do it behind closed doors lacks the transparency that is needed. It continues the image that the nobility don’t feel they are answerable to anybody outside of their own little group. This lack of transparency is what got this big lawsuit that caused the hike in membership fees. I am not asking they give out every little detail but to publicly in some way, shape, or form to give updates and a thorough account at the end of the investigation.

Sorry we aren't the US government. Transparency is not needed. We don't stand for a cause for your appeasement.

Private club, volunteers, you don't pay us. We have no obligation to share information with you for any reason.

[Chiara]

Not to sound too insensitive to the current flow of the thread but could a few of you please repost the titles of the books that you all ARE recommending and where we can get them?

I have gotten lost in the reading at least a dozen times trying to find all the info inbetween the meat of this thread. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

As for the rest of the discussion, wow, I am at a loss for words and am a bit heart broken that it is happening at all. My limited experiance with the Price's was in negotiating glove designs fell through. No money changed hands, nothing was signed, no harm came to anyone from the failure to come to an agreement. Sounds as if I dodged a bullte. My condolances to all who are dealing with this regardless of which side you are on.

[Aerimus13]

Morgan,

It wasn't far off what I thought early on. It seemed that the KSCAs were waiting for a ten year legal battle to be finished until action would be taken. But what I thought I saw was not what I saw and just seemed to be what I saw.

As Count Johnathan hinted to, things are happening. I think the KSCAs and other "powers that be" just doesn't want us to watch sausage being made, merely sausage being served (with a good ale, etc...). The behind-the-scenes stuff might not be great to see. For example some threads I've read here. It's not always great watching sausage being made.



With respect,

-Aaron

And why did you lack the confidence in the KSCA to police one of their own? Could it be that the past is a good indicator of the future? I am glad the KSCA are taking action but to do it behind closed doors lacks the transparency that is needed. It continues the image that the nobility don't feel they are answerable to anybody outside of their own little group. This lack of transparency is what got this big lawsuit that caused the hike in membership fees. I am not asking they give out every little detail but to publicly in some way, shape, or form to give updates and a thorough account at the end of the investigation.

Sorry we aren't the US government. Transparency is not needed. We don't stand for a cause for your appeasement.

Private club, volunteers, you don't pay us. We have no obligation to share information with you for any reason.

And that is why the non-peers have no confidence in the peers to do anything that is not in their self interest. You basicly told me fuck you—you are not a peer so we don't have to answer to you.

I rest my case your honor.

I will now remove my stick from this horse once again. Good day sir.

[Galleron]

The week has now passed, with only one form of communication.

Mrs. Price contacted Christian Tobler last night to ask him if he would like his royalties paid in check or books? She then later wrote all authors, besides myself, "offering" them:

1. stock at 50% off of cover price, charged against back royalties

2. the return of rights, although somewhat disingenuously, stating that they had already said that they would return rights when they paid royalties. That is patently NOT true. What Brian stated was:

If authors want the rights to their books, as we have already returned to David Lindholm, then they should contact me directly for a negotiation. Our phone numbers have not changed in 10 years. Email is *not* a reliable channel for critical messaging, and the brian@chivalrybookshelf.com email has not worked since 2008.

Emphasis added.

To be sure I understand the facts correctly, Mrs. Price made this offer to settle to all of the authors except you?

[Greg Mele]

Correct.

[Broadway]

And that is why the non-peers have no confidence in the peers to do anything that is not in their self interest.

Take your giant brush, pull one hair from it, and start painting with it instead please.

[Maeryk]

Morgan,

It wasn't far off what I thought early on. It seemed that the KSCAs were waiting for a ten year legal battle to be finished until action would be taken. But what I thought I saw was not what I saw and just seemed to be what I saw.

As Count Johnathan hinted to, things are happening. I think the KSCAs and other "powers that be" just doesn't want us to watch sausage being made, merely sausage being served (with a good ale, etc...). The behind-the-scenes stuff might not be great to see. For example some threads I've read here. It's not always great watching sausage being made.



With respect,

-Aaron

And why did you lack the confidence in the KSCA to police one of their own? Could it be that the past is a good indicator of the future? I am glad the KSCA are taking action but to do it behind closed doors lacks the transparency that is needed. It continues the image that the nobility don’t feel they are answerable to anybody outside of their own little group. This lack of transparency is what got this big lawsuit that caused the hike in membership fees. I am not asking they give out every little detail but to publicly in some way, shape, or form to give updates and a thorough account at the end of the investigation.

Sorry we aren't the US government. Transparency is not needed. We don't stand for a cause for your appeasement.

Private club, volunteers, you don't pay us. We have no obligation to share information with you for any reason.

Conflation of two different issues. There does not need to be (and should NOT be) transparency in how The Order(s) Choose their people. Part of the structure and perks of the order(s) is that they choose their own candidates, and with the blessing of a Monarch, elevate them.

There _SHOULD_ be transparency on a CORPORATE level. Yes, the two do intersect in some places.. some "offices" are also de-facto corporate officers, for all intents and purposes.

But, game side vs reality side, reality is where transparency is needed. A modern guy with a web store ripping off modern authors is "reality side". Sir ArgyBargry playing "hide the belt" with a retainer when it's in poor taste is "game side".

[Count Johnathan]

And that is why the non-peers have no confidence in the peers to do anything that is not in their self interest. You basicly told me f##k you—you are not a peer so we don't have to answer to you.

I rest my case your honor.

I will now remove my stick from this horse once again. Good day sir.

While I did not say what you accuse me of and self interest has nothing to do with this situation, I am glad that you understand at least one portion of my statement.

We don't have to answer to you.

Take it to the POC forum for further debate if you wish.

Good day to you.

[Maeryk]

And that is why the non-peers have no confidence in the peers to do anything that is not in their self interest. You basicly told me f##k you—you are not a peer so we don’t have to answer to you.

I rest my case your honor.

I will now remove my stick from this horse once again. Good day sir.

While I did not say what you accuse me of and self interest has nothing to do with this situation, I am glad that you understand at least one portion of my statement.

We don’t have to answer to you.

Take it to the POC forum for further debate if you wish.

Good day to you.

Well, in a way, you are correct (which ties back into the meta thread). You _don't_ have to answer to "us". However, we don't have to give you any respect, or even the time of day, either. We do because you have earned our trust and respect. Lose that, and you are just a guy with a funny belt pretending to be what the Knights are.

While the Knighthood (accolade) is a recognition of a man's merit and skill.. it doesn't _make_ someone something they are not. Many have recieved it for being fabulous leaders, upright people, and stalwart examples. A few have recieved it for being someone's best buddy. Most who have gotten it have treated it with respect and honor. A few have immediately dragged it in the mud and used it as a cudgel.

Those who fit the latter description have no respect from the majority of the populace.

To sum it up succinctly, inscribed inside one set of crowns, I believe, it says "we rule because they believe".. the same is true of the Orders. The only reason it "means anything" is because WE believe. Without "us" there is no "You". So, while on it's face your statement is true.. in reality.. it's dangerous ground to dread upon when you heap disdain and apathy on those you are supposedly supposed to be serving and protecting.

(Generic "you" in all instances, not going after you, personally, Johno.. )

[Count Johnathan]

Maeryk I completely agree with you. You know as well as I that trying to adjust the order simply to appease an individual with an obvious chip on their shoulder is not appropriate and will not happen.

It is not with malice or disdain that I offer him the truth of it.

If the situation called for it, if he needed it, I would assist and protect him but I do not serve him.

[Stump]

"I know of many within the SCA whose character and demeanor, both inside the Society and out, that they are knights in the pursuit of the ideal sense of the word. I know others who wear the white belt but who I cannot in good faith consider knights--I believe the same could be said for any group of men laying claim to the title in any time period."

[Aaron]

Maeryk I completely agree with you.

OK, if I ever see either of you together, drink of choice is on me. I never thought I'd see the day the two of you agree on anything.

[Black Swan Designs]

Hello! Another call for a list of the books and goods in question please!! Gulf Wars grows closer by the minute and I want to post the list to make people aware.

Gwen

[Galleron]

This morning, I have posted the following to my kingdom list.

I think that’s a good idea, but this thread is a daunting 20 pages and has slogged on far beyond the details of the case and into sockpuppets, philosophical discussions/arguments of chivalry, other SCA cases, etc. For the general reader, I’d suggest linking them to Galleron’s concise summation of the situation, which links back to this thread for people who are interested in the gory details.

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... valry.html

Cheers,
Charlotte J (No relation to Lady Charlotte, as far as I know)

I've added an update, with the list of books.

[Aerimus13]

Maeryk I completely agree with you. You know as well as I that trying to adjust the order simply to appease an individual with an obvious chip on their shoulder is not appropriate and will not happen.

It is not with malice or disdain that I offer him the truth of it.

If the situation called for it, if he needed it, I would assist and protect him but I do not serve him.

Why don't you tell what that chip is?

I have said in several post that I do not take the whole of the KSCA as a bunch of asshats. You are taking my post as personal attacks. If I am going to personally attack I will do so and not so nice terms as this conversation has been.

Your statement about not serving me is true. You don't serve me but you do serve the SCA as a whole by wearing that belt. You knights can do what ever you damn well please but I was trying to point out that perception is powerful. If the populace of an kingdom has the impression that the KSCA there are awesome then it does not matter if they are or not. By coming out and say you don't give a damn about what I say then you are also sending a clear message the non-peers who have read this thread.

And speaking of reading. You might want to look back at most of what I said. I am holding the KSCA who knew about BP's business practices accountable not you.

Yes I have a chip on my shoulder. The chip is distain for people who talk out of both sides of their mouth. I appreciate you for being a plain talker. You don't bandy words and I can respect that. But I will not stop speaking my mind even if you think it is wrong. If you have a problem with that then I suggest we not reply to each others post and save each other the heartache.

[Broadway]

Aerimus13,

Are you going to St. Urho's Tourney tomorrow?

[Aerimus13]

Aerimus13,

Are you going to St. Urho's Tourney tomorrow?

No sorry I am not. Why?

[Broadway]

Cause its practically in your backyard. Just thought we could meet in person.

[Morgan]

I've added an update, with the list of books.

Are these the only books in question of which anyone is aware?


Jousts and Tournaments
Deeds of Arms
Fighting with the German Longsword
Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship
In Service of the Duke
Arte Gladiatoria: 15th century swordsmanship of Filippo Vadi
The Art of Dueling
The Art of Medieval Swordsmanship
The Swordsman's Companion
The Duelist's Companion