Guys in armor with shields during the 14th - 16th c.

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:52 pm

Just some more information that I dug up to answer FrauHirsch's comments, concerning shields used in the 14th -16th centuries.

"Pavise-large rectangular shield used by military European Infantry often tapering slightly towards the top and sometimes fitted with a prop so that it stands by itself. It appeared in the 14th century for use by infantry archers and crossbowmen and sometimes by spear armed infantry called pavisiers in France, whose job it was to protect missile troops.

Scutum-Curved shield used by Roman Legionaires from the mid Republic until the 2nd cent. AD. Its semicyclindrical in shape, giving better protection to fight in a loose formation. During the Republic (509 - 27 BC) the shield was generally oval in shape, but it becomes rectangular in the 1st cent. AD"
Dictionary of Ancient & Medieval Warfare Stackpole Books.

"By the 15th cent the armourer's craft had advanced to such an extant as to make the shield unneccessary by knights for the purpose other than the joust. It was used only by infantryman who carried small bucklers which were used in conjunction with swords...
Crossbowmen, handgunners, and occasionally archers used pavises, large rectangulr shields, which could be supported by a prop during siege operations. Alternately they could be carried by individuals known as pavissiers whose duty it was to provide protection when and where it was needed."
Arms & Armour of the Medieval Knight David Edge & John Miles Paddock.

"Other common items of defense and offence are similarily subjected to critical scrutiny and generally fail the test. For example d'Evoli believes that the small round shield known as the rotella is a usefull defense for infantry against pike, he is unimpressed by the calvary's targa, or wooden shield. The latter has to be secured to the man using it with a leather strap and buckles so entangling him that he is no longer free to move about quickly. More over because the targa is made of wood, the metal tip of a lance strikes it full on rather than slipping off safely to one side or the other. Worse still, it defends only one side of the body, leaving the rest unprotected and if by mischance the horse should fall, the man would find himself so tangled up that he scarsely be able to rise again. For these resasons d'Evoli jeers, if it is at all possible to provide other kinds of defense, then it is much better to leave the employment of these sheilds to the enemy thant to arm one's own battalion's with them."
Dell Ordinanze et Battaglia Cesare d'Evoli, 1583 from The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe Dr. Sidney Anglo

"In fact, the combination of sword ans shield became distinctly uncommon with the wide spread introduction of plate armour in the 14th century. It is a source of some irratation that the fall in popularity of sword and shield corresponds with the rise in popularity of the fencing manual, our prime source for the reconstruction of historical western swordsmanship."
Talhoffer's Sword and Duelling shield as a model for reconstructing early medieval sword and shield techniques. SPADA, Anthology of Swordsmanship Stephen Hand and Paul Wagner

"At various times during the 15th century authorities either encouraged sword and buckler play as a usefull training for potential soldiers or banned it as a threat to the king's peace, unnaccetably costly in lives and limbs." Medieval Soldier Gerry Embleton & John Howe.

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics"
http://www.caerdubh.com

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:20 am

There were two basic types of round shields in use at the time, which are probably called by different names, depending on the region.

Bucklers, which would be center gripped, and targ(ets)s which would strap on and be of a larger diameter.

I'll have to go back and find the painting [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] but there is one of soldiers going onboard a ship with scutums, followed by men with large round (not that much smaller than the scutums) shields c1500-1520. None appear to be pavis type.

There is also a woodcut of a man c1580-1600 carrying a broadsword in his hand, with the blade resting on his shoulder, and a large round strapped to his left arm. It was common for a man with this type of shield in the latter part of the 16th C to be employed in exploiting breaches in walls and other fortifications.

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Alcyoneus:
There were two basic types of round shields in use at the time, which are probably called by different names, depending on the region. . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Targe, Target, Rotella are the more common names for round shields that I have come across.

Bucklers, which would be center gripped, and targ(ets)s which would strap on and be of a larger diameter.

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/NewManuals/Marozzo/p046.jpg
A illustration of both a buckler and a round shield.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'll have to go back and find the painting [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] but there is one of soldiers going onboard a ship with scutums, followed by men with large round (not that much smaller than the scutums) shields c1500-1520. None appear to be pavis type.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you find the illustration of the soldiers with the large shields, boarding ship, can you also find out what context the image is supposed to represent?
One of the more common pitfalls with illustrations, especially in the 15th century ones, is that imagery depicted is not representing contempory events. Froissart's illustrations from the mid 15th century, is a history of the Hundred Years Wars, starting in the 14th.
As pointed out in the above quotes, it was not that the shield disappeared in the 15th cent on up, it is just that it did not become the preffered defense.

There is also a woodcut of a man c1580-1600 carrying a broadsword in his hand, with the blade resting on his shoulder, and a large round strapped to his left arm. It was common for a man with this type of shield in the latter part of the 16th C to be employed in exploiting breaches in walls and other fortifications.

Even in the 16th cent, there was still a big difference between siege warfare and battlefield warfare. However the shield you desribe is shown by Marrozo and valued by d'Evoli, so it does not surprise me to see it.
Also with the imagery of the soldiers with shields, what type, if any, armour are they wearing? Full harness, half, none at all?
Factors to consider when viewing just iconography are; what the image is trying to represent, when in history the image is trying to represent, what type of armour is being worn, and what type of weapons are used along with it.

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics"
http://www.caerdubh.com

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Winterfell:
When you find the illustration of the soldiers with the large shields, boarding ship, can you also find out what context the image is supposed to represent? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a contemporary Italian scene. It may be awhile. I have a photographic memory, but some pics are over/under exposed, and most aren't labeled properly.