Fighting at the Barrier.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

I've got some spare lumber lying around & I want to use it and bring 'Fighting at the Barrier' to my local HEMA group as a fun training tool. (and just plain fun thing)

But I have 2 questions:

#1) Where might I find a quick 'how-to' for this?

#2) where is a good article which speaks to the historical accuracy of this in the 14th, 15th, or 16th century's?

-Ivan

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

I figure a good area might be two 6ft x 6ft area's facing each other?

-Ivan

[Angusm0628]

King Renee's Book of the tourney is a good start. http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html

[zachos]

Fighting at the Barrier is a 16th century thing. No evidence for it beforehand, as far as I'm aware. Good luck though.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Read Froissart- it happened during sieges all the time. It was outrageously common.

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

King Renee's Book of the Tourney is a good start.

Actually, I'm not so sure it is.

That book is all about a melee-style tournament. When I searched on "barrier," all the references were to the list barriers, that is, the fences around the listfield.

Now, I did not search intensively, but I HAVE read that book all the way through, though some time past, and I recall no references to single combat therein.

I could be in error on this, but that's as I understand at this point.

[zachos]

King Renee's Book of the Tourney is a good start.

Actually, I'm not so sure it is.

That book is all about a melee-style tournament. When I searched on "barrier," all the references were to the list barriers, that is, the fences around the listfield.

Now, I did not search intensively, but I HAVE read that book all the way through, though some time past, and I recall no references to single combat therein.

I could be in error on this, but that's as I understand at this point.

Having read the whole book just days ago, I can tell you that you are correct.

@Vitus
I assume you mean over the walls? I'm talking about a tournament situation, where what research I've done places it in a 16th century setting. If you can provide details to prove me wrong, that would be great, as it could be an interesting addition to our shows.

[Astaroth]

Barrier fighting in the 14th and 15th centuries was "tourney combat" however it was tourney combat during a siege. Not unlike the Christmas soccer game during WWI between the trenches. Barriers were set up so that tourney combat could be conducted over these barriers during sieges between the opposing forces. The barrier in some ways represented the chivalric agreement between the two forces. From my reading of Froissart this was an agreement between gentlemen and often frowned upon but allowed by the generals in charge. I have even read account where the knights having been caught conducting such a tourney hastily broke down the barrier and retreated when archers were sent to support them against the besieged.

[Astaroth]

Barrier combat evolved from real combat over makeshift barriers erected in front of town and castle gates, to a more formal chivalric tourney held during sieges, and then later to full spectacles held before audiences.



Here Froissart describes the fighting at the barriers.

When these three Scottish earls who were chief captains had made their enterprise in the bishopric of Durham and had sore overrun the country, then they returned to Newcastle and there rested and tarried two days, and every day they scrimmished. The earl of Northumberland's two sons were two young lusty knights and were ever foremost at the barriers to scrimmish. There were many proper feats of arms done and achieved: there was fighting hand to hand:

The winner here captured a Pennon

among other there fought hand to hand the earl Douglas and sir Henry Percy, and by force of arms the earl Douglas won the pennon of sir Henry Percy's, wherewith he was sore displeased and so were all the Englishmen. And the earl Douglas said to sir Henry Percy: 'Sir, I shall bear this token of your prowess into Scotland and shall set it on high on my castle of Dalkeith, that it may be seen far off.' 'Sir,' quoth sir Henry, 'ye may be sure ye shall not pass the bounds of this country till ye be met withal in such wise that ye shall make none avaunt thereof.' 'Well, sir,' quoth the earl Douglas, 'come this night to my lodging and seek for your pennon: I shall set it before my lodging and see if ye will come to take it away.' So then it was late, and the Scots withdrew to their lodgings and refreshed them with such as they had. They had flesh enough: they made that night good watch, for they thought surely to be awaked for the words they had spoken, but they were not, for sir Henry Percy was counselled not so to do.

This is not combat in earnest it is play.

[Galfrid atte grene]

Harley 4431 f. 135v depicts a fight upon a barrier at a gatehouse, approx. 1410 - 1414. Not single combat though. Anyone know other illustrations of this?

[Kel Rekuta]

This is not combat in earnest it is play.

On that single point only, I disagree. The Douglas' and Percy's did not play with each other. The families were rivals and deadly enemies. They fought with weapons of war regularly since they were at feud for several generations. Had Percy gone to claim the pennon, people would have died.

[Astaroth]

Yes people would have died however the point was the taking of the pennon was an impromptu tourney during a siege and in many ways a deadly game is still a game and as such was play for these men...these were not modern people and they did not have the same sense of fun we have.

[FrauHirsch1]

I believe Henry VIII was known for foot combat at the barriers - 16th c.

[Kel Rekuta]

Yes people would have died however the point was the taking of the pennon was an impromptu tourney during a siege and in many ways a deadly game is still a game and as such was play for these men...these were not modern people and they did not have the same sense of fun we have.

Hmmm. An interesting perspective. I am inclined to believe these opportunities were used for personal advancement i.e. gaining renown. The only thing that seems to have been more "awesome" as renown was fighting in a mine during a siege. I guess this could all be considered play in a warrior aesthetic mindset. Hard fighting was a necessary and attractive part of their lives but I've never read the passion for armed warfare with sharp weapons as recreation, per se.

Interesting point though.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

How big was the barrier for single combat?

[Galleron]

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... riers.html