The Armour Archive

<b>BTW- in terms of fighting skills, thats all I would come to you for guidance in, so that is all I have to respect about you, and I have already made my opinion of that plain.
</b>
This statement spun my head. How do you expect to learn from someone if you cannot fully respect them?
What the hell does "Noob" stand for, anyways?
Why do you want to learn combat styles? (SCA,WMA,EMA,etc)
What do you want to get out of it?



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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics"
http://www.caerdubh.com

I think that theoretically you CAN learn from someone that you don't fully respect, but I certianly don't think that you should go to someone you don't respect to teach you.

I learn from people I don't respect all the time, but usually it's what NOT to do. As for going to someone to learn how to fight, I feel you should respect them. And not just on the field, but off as well. Combat is about more than fighting, IMHO. As such, I want to learn from someone I respect.

Noob apparently is a short form of newbie.

Bout all I can comment on in this

Bran

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Courage is not the absence of fear, it's the ability to overcome it.

Authenticity Pledge can be found at http://www.kylosa.com/Pledge

<ok fine high-jack one of my threads, but i want royalties....oh wait will i have to wear one of those extremely uncomfortable looking crowns?>

For me it's exercise AND it puts my old steel fighting harness back into use (after a 10 year hiadus) plus it's fun i'm 35 and starting over again. like anything similar it's humbling and forfilling to have guys who have been doing this say I show promise after one practice. It also feeds my ego to get away from the grind of HP and imerse myself in something toatally diffrent. Traditional martial arts never really intrested me (i fenced at University, and learned a little Kali stick fighting but that was long ago).
So yes there are less expensive exercise programs (the Army says all i have to do is run *gag* and i'll get into shape..boring), but none that for me have the satisfaction of both history, martial activity, and exercise.

my 0.02 florians

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Malcolm MacRobert de Moffat, Barony of Caer Mear, Kingdom of Atlantia, Lieutenant of the Black Company, Sole Squire to Sir Edward Tanner of Cambria.

Winterfell,
It is very simple. When you want to learn how to fight, you go to a better fighter. When you want to learn how to paint, you go to a better painter.

What part of that confuses you?

I learned a long time ago that being a good painter or fighter doesnt make one a default authority on anything else but fighting or painting. They may be, but they may also NOT be.

For example, if you want to learn how to throw a fast, hard hitting backfist, i am your man, but i would not be the guy to talk to about how to balance a checkbook.........LOL

Does the one weakness mean that no one can learn from me? of course not.

If you still think that skill at arms only comes to those of stalwart character, then I got a bridge to sell ya.............

A fighter I know (but not well in any way,shape or form) almost quit becuase thier fighting instructor turned out to have some not so nice personal habits.

That utterly confused me, because, HELLO? no one is perfect. You went to them for help in fighting. Being a fast stick doesnt make them Ghandi

As to why I fight SCA? because it is fun. And for me, a new style of martial art to learn about. And a sport which I can participate in, and a fun way to meet new people and make new friends.

it is really a very simple thing to grasp.

Why I learn SCA style combat.

It is the closest approximation to "the real thing" that is available with reasonable amount of input. Reasonable being the amount of money, risk and dedication I am willing to give at the moment.

I like the brutish freesparring which despite its competitiviness is relatively safe. Despite dabbling in some oriental martial arts getting hit for real has been an eyeopener. And an adrenalinerush.

I dislike many of our rules as unhistorical, but accept them and the game as medievally themed stickfighting. I grant the WMA guys the right to use cooler weapons, for which they usually seem to pay by losing aggressiveness. ( The care needed in handling real steel may actually contribute to duplicating our more sane medieval ancestors more accurately than in typical SCA setting, where getting hit is no big deal.) For me fullspeedsparring is the thing though.

I want to get out the following:
improved control of my own body - being able to fight for longer periods of time more efficiently.
Improved eye for battle - both for gauging timing and distance.
Perhaps improved mental strength - firstly to get on the field fearing no man carrying a stick. Secondly and perhaps more difficult getting on the field with any man with only common fun in mind, without having to prove anything to myself and yet without losing the competitive edge.
I don´t really expect my SCA fighting to have relevance outside the lists, except perhaps by helping to keep me in somewhat decent physical shape.

Mikael

P.s. I try to avoid taking the game so seriously I end taking surgery for it. I may not reach my genetic potential - but I want to kick my son sons ass on the field when I am 70.

I was a soldier for a long period of time, I have participated in some kind of wrestling/boxing/martial arts for years. SCA fighting is a good hard fighting workout that I enjoy. I need some kind of combatative activity to keep myself sane.

As for training with people you don't respect...A big part of developing Chivalry, Bushido and other warrior codes is to ensure that the man who wields the sword is the man you WANT weilding the sword. Any one with prowess at fighting is a fighter, it takes a certain set of values and beliefs to take that prowess and use it for the benefit of mankind. Thats the bottom line about what makes a warrior.

A warrior is a rare thing, but they are available. Just don't make the mistake of assuming every fighter is a warrior.

Bingo. Warrior comes from within. I fight because it is an expression of beauty from within me. Its the only time I ever get to dance. Funny thing though, you know, the first time I ever saw myself fighting on video I wanted to cry. In my head I was graceful and light, moving fluidly and beautifully. But on the screen I was a stomping bashing monster. I was heartbroken! Whatever. It still feels like dancing to me, so I dont mind. I just dont watch myself on video anymore

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Animal Weretiger
"Trample the weak; hurdle the dead"

I fight for the interplay, me vs. you, us vs. them. And while winning is nice, a good hot fight is the ticket.

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Sir Theodrik of Skane,
West, Mists, Blackwood Company
'Lude Fortier, Lude Juste, Nemini Damnum!'

Nice to see people that place character and honor above all else! I am not criticizing somebody spending the time to learn from somebody who is not the perfect definition of morality. But, in my opinion, if a person is skilled in their technique but make dishonorable choices, then I will not honor them with my attention (unless I'm kicking their butt on the field).

Personally, I believe anybody who I am giving the respect to want to train with better be somebody I can respect. Otherwise, I am only fueling the ego of somebody who doesn't deserve the recognition. Besides, you can win 1000 fights, but without honor, you really haven't won much of anything, just prolonged your existence on this planet - nothing more. I'd rather lose with honor than to win with dishonor.

The same should apply to those who teach others...

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Rolf of Isterfen

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

The part that confuses me is that you did your level best to slam someone and then you turned around and said that you would go to them for fighting guidence.
To me at least, I find that rather insulting.
"Oh you are a complete jerk off, but can you show me that flat snap anways?"
You are not asking for any kind of teacher/student relationship, your ordering a Big Mac at McDonald's.
It just seems that something is inherently missing in your attitude.
Which we could go round and round about, but honestly I would rather not waste the time on that.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by A Noob Named John:
<B>Winterfell,
It is very simple. When you want to learn how to fight, you go to a better fighter. When you want to learn how to paint, you go to a better painter.

What part of that confuses you?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>




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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics"
http://www.caerdubh.com

<i>"I have learnt silence from the talkative,
patience from the impatient
and tolerance from the intolerant
...yet I am ungrateful to all these teachers."</i>

We all can be an example, even if it is what NOT to do. But its beter to learn from bad examples from a distance.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Personally, I love the game we play because I'm able to expand my knowledge and develop myself in a realm that doesn't end when the tunic comes off. I have the 7 virtues and vices hanging in my office to remind me of how much better I can be than I am at this moment.

The same is true of the martial aspect. I want to be trained by those that I want to emulate, for I will be a product of their teachings. I will also be judged by my association with them.

Mostly, if I do not trust someone and respect them - I do not allow myself to open up to what I can learn from them. I'd be wasting their time and mine.

Winterfell,
I see your point. I do. But I am just trying to keep everything in perspective. Business is business. And I dont expect perfection in anyone, so I recognize the good, and the bad, is all I am saying.

A fighting instructor is different from a knight-squire relationship. In that , I would seek out someone to be an example in all things knightly. That would mean skill at arms AND behaviorand everything else.

But for a fighting instructor? I would seek out the best fighter I could regaurdless of how well he presents himself at court..

I hope I am explaining myself clearly enough?

Interesting question: "Why do you fight?"

I know this sounds strange to many people but I think this group can relate...

I've always wanted to be "Knight" when I was a kid. I would day dream about leading the charge into the breach, saving the fair maiden and saving the kingdom. You know, the stuff I mean.

When I was in college I discovered the SCA! My chance to be a knight! Ok, I'm not knighted nor will I ever be a SCA Knight. But I can act like what my "dream" knight would act like. I can be Chivalrous and Noble. I can try to live up to the code of knighthood.

While at college, my closest friends were from the SCA. We did everything together.

I joined the SCA because of the fighting and the chance to wear armour. However, being in the SCA is much much more then that! I've taken up dancing and some of the other "arts".

I have a friend here at work who is a member of one of these live steel fighting groups (ARMA). Talking to him, it sounds like all they do is historial fighting. Which is fine. He laughs and teases me because we fight with sticks and not swords. The two groups, ARMA and SCA are two different very groups with very different goals and methods of reaching those goals. For me, the fighting is an important part of the SCA but not the only important part. I wouldn't last long as a member of ARMA becuase I would miss out on all the other fun parts of the SCA.

After college my SCA friends all drifted our different ways and I left the SCA for a number of years. I'm just now getting back into the SCA and digging out my old armour. I guess I still want to be that knight I used to dream about as a kid...

BTW, my wife thinks I'm completely nuts...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I see your point. I do. But I am just trying to keep everything in perspective. Business is business. And I dont expect perfection in anyone, so I recognize the good, and the bad, is all I am saying.</font>

Hmmm - would you *voice* your opinion to the respective person? I'd assume that "Hey, I admire your fighting skill. Would you give me a lesson?" and "Well, there's not much I appreciate in you besides your fighting skill, but that one thing I'd want to benefit from. Would you give me a lesson?" will produce quite different results.

As this is not a *business* situation (you get something from me and pay for it - not much emotions involved) but a voluntary, free, spare-time thing I'd consider it a question of honor not to exploit somebody time-, energy- and maybe even expectation-wise if you don't respect this person.

Cheers,
Will

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Winterfell:
<B>The part that confuses me is that you did your level best to slam someone and then you turned around and said that you would go to them for fighting guidence.
To me at least, I find that rather insulting.
"Oh you are a complete jerk off, but can you show me that flat snap anways?"

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I have had exactly the opposite kind of feeling, at one point in time.

I know a fighter that is a lot better than I am. I am a little bittie minstrel, and he is a knight and a duke. He is also a real jerk. I would love to be able to bury my feelings, suck it up and learn from him, but I just cannot make myself do it.

It is a real failing on my own part but, for the life of me, I don't want to change it. I guess that is why he's a Duke and I'm not.

f

Freiman,
I do not think it is a failing on your part.
That is my point exactly. Even though you may admire a person's skill, if you don't have at least some respect for them, what can you really learn?
There are some people out there that I know are real good swordsmen, but that I would never want to train with because I have absolutey no respect for them. I would not train from them.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by freiman the minstrel:
<B> Actually, I have had exactly the opposite kind of feeling, at one point in time.

I know a fighter that is a lot better than I am. I am a little bittie minstrel, and he is a knight and a duke. He is also a real jerk. I would love to be able to bury my feelings, suck it up and learn from him, but I just cannot make myself do it.

It is a real failing on my own part but, for the life of me, I don't want to change it. I guess that is why he's a Duke and I'm not.

f</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics"
http://www.caerdubh.com

William,
Of course I wouldnt take the second approach, that would be foolish.

But there is a big difference between thinking someone is a total jerk and thinking that they have some bad mannerisms.

I guess it is just because I have studied with so many instructors already.

One of my kenpo sensei was a great fighter, but a lecherous semi-pervert that tried to nail all his female students. Untill that other side of him effected me, even though I found it quite distasteful ( abuse of the instructor-student relationship always irks me), it didnt matter.

another sensei was brilliant at breaking down movements, but he had character flaws as well, but again, since I wasnt looking to him as a spiritual guide, it didnt matter.

I simply didnt discuss the problems I had with thier character. I was there to learn technique, so I stuck to that.

Which is to say, if they were a criminal, or maliciously hurting people or whatever, I wouldnt be around them. Some things I cant overlook.

Someone being a jerk? pffft, I am a jerk. So I cant very well hold that agaisnt anyone, you know? LOL

Read all of it.

"Fencing (Right honorable) in this new fangled age, is like our fashions, every day a change, resembling the chameleon, who alters himself into all colors save white. So fencing changes into all wards save the right. That it is so, experience teaches us, why it is so, I doubt not but your wisdom does conceive. There is nothing permanent that is not true, what can be true that is uncertain? How can that be certain, that stands upon uncertain grounds?

The mind of man a greedy hunter after truth, finding the seem truth but changing, not always one, but always diverse, forsakes the supposed, to find out the assured certainty, and searching everywhere save where it should, meets with all save what it would. Who seeks & finds not, seeks in vain. Who seeks in vain, must if he will find seek again, yet all in vain. Who seeks not what he would, as he should, and where he should, as in other things (Right Honorable), so in fencing. The mind desirous of truth, hunts after it, and hating falsehood, flies from it, and therefore having missed it once, it assays the second time. If then he thrives not, he tries another way. When he has failed, he adventures on the third & if all these fail him, yet he never fails to change his weapon, his fight, his ward, if by any means he may compass what he most affects, for because men desire to find out a true defence for themselves in their fight, therefore they seek it diligently, nature having taught us to defend ourselves, and art teaching us how, and because we miss it in one way, we change to another.

But though we often chop and change, turn and return, from ward to ward, from fight to fight, in this constant search, yet we never rest in any, and that because we never find the truth, and therefore we never find it, because we never seek it in that weapon where it may be found. For, to seek for a true defence in an untrue weapon, is to angle on the earth for fish, and to hunt in the sea for hares. Truth is ancient though it seems an upstart. Our forefathers were wise, though our age accounts them foolish, valiant though we repute them cowards...
...this Science, it is noble, and in my opinion to be preferred next to divinity, for as divinity preserves the soul from hell and the devil, so does this Noble Science defend the body from wounds & slaughter. And moreover, the exercising of weapons puts away aches, griefs, and diseases, it increases strength, and sharpens the wits. It gives a perfect judgement, it expels melancholy, choleric and evil conceits, it keeps a man in breath, perfect health, and long life. It is unto him that has the perfection thereof, a most friendly and comfortable companion when he is alone, having but only his weapon about him. It puts him out of fear, & in the wars and places of most danger, it makes him bold, hardy and valiant."
George Silver, 1599