The Armour Archive

Stahlgrim wrote:Bashing(I wish there was a better word for it) would be to use the flat front of the shield to strike the opponent with,pretty much a backhand.
... Bashing (still don't like the word) would in my opinion impart far less force.

Shield bashing, as the term is used in other combat sports, is driving your left shoulder into your opponent (usually while at a run of 3 or more steps) with the intent of knocking him off his feet. Think football. Many (most?) of the sports that allow shield bashing also allow hitting a downed opponent.

Stahlgrim, have you seen this video?

http://www.midrealm.org/kith/kith/grappling.wmv

I don't know anything about you, so I'm not certain if you know how much is already allowed in the SCA rules.

Stahlgrim, I think your "back-hand" with a shield is more akin to what the foam boffer games call a shield check, which is any strike with the face of the shield where your feet are not moving. This would be easier to render safe than a running bash, IMHO.

Stahlgrim wrote:

Anyway, show me historical examples of someone using a heater/kite/round shield to cut through someone's plate/maille/lamellar armour and kill them. Then I will accept a shield edge blow as a killing blow.

so.... your sayin that with out an edge it can't be effective as a weapon? so hammers,maces,clubs,etc are unable to hurt or kill an man in armour including plate, lamellar and mail? so my friend who had his ribs broken by a sca spear when he was wearing mail was hallucinating? he will be happy to know it was all in his head.

Let me clarify what I had in my head when I said that. If the idea is that some guy with one of these shield-punches me, in my plate & maille, and tells me that I'm now dead, he's going to be sorely disappointed in my reaction.
The swords, maces & spears we use are representative of real steel/iron weapons. The shield was never an offensive weapon, its a shield. Its a blunt-edged piece of wood, both in history and in our game. It could be used as a weapon in a pinch, but by that token, so could almost anything. Our game is inspired (loosely) by history, and in centuries past, when people were set on killing someone they drew their sword, not their shield.

Now, if the idea is that shield blows are not counted as weapon strikes, but are allowed within the rules for strategic advantage, you're going to see a lot of smaller fighters getting beaten down by whoever can batter them with their shield enough to negate any discrepancy in actual skill with a weapon. Basically, might makes right instead of prowess. We've had that discussion at considerable length in the past, and the answer is that anyone under at least six feet & 200 pounds is at a considerable disadvantage.

I think that the discussion is a good thing, I enjoy seeing people's minds work, but, as I said before It's not a change I will propose anytime soon and not one that I ever see happening.

On the appearance side, it is the express job of the marshallate to: (from Corpora)
The Earl Marshal bears primary responsibility for promoting both the safety and the
authenticity of the martial arts in the kingdom, but works with other officers in their areas of mutual interest.

There was a lively thread a while back about this and I am too busy to repeat it and the job description is not debatable anyway.
I will however say that what I will be proposing is a very minor and non-invasive minimum appearance standard that will promote the "10 foot rule" kinda thing.
More to follow in a few months.

I can say at least from a boffer standpoint, being run over by a 250# guy in heavy armor from a full run is not the nicest feeling in the world but I've never seen it result in any injuries other than mild bruising if the bash-ee falls into someone else or a root or rock. Obviously the situation I described involved foamed shields, but I would be willing to be run over by a shield bash in an SCA heavy combat situation as an experiment.

Some boffer groups allow shield bashes from any distance up to a full sprint. Maybe that wouldn't be a good idea in SCA combat, how would you feel about a 3 step maximum shield bash starting distance? Do you feel that shield bashing or checking in any form or at any distance is inherently unsafe?

Sure, a shield could be used in an offensive manner, but unless you hit them in the throat, teeth, nose or eyes, you won't be guaranteed of any real damage that will stop their assault on you.

I'm just gonna leave this here...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=106610&p=1535598&hilit=SHIELD+BASHING#p1535598

Fair enough. Then Why don't we work on defining exactly what is meant by shield bashing, checking, punching, ect. Then proceed to argue about it.

CathalFinnObriain wrote:You can make all the safety features you want ... but the fact remains ... with the rulset we currently have i have the ability to fight someone who is double my weight. If we allow offensive shields and bashing ... i am at a HUGE disadvantage being only 5 foot 10 and weighing in at 220. Guys who are 300-350 would just squash me in the lyst.

No kidding. I'm 5'7" and 160 lbs. Any type of grappling or stuff like this then we need weight categories. I deal with fighting guys twice my weight but I could not be competitive if they could just shield bash me out of the way.

Uric

Iohn deMar wrote:Fair enough. Then Why don't we work on defining exactly what is meant by shield bashing, checking, punching, ect. Then proceed to argue about it.

Check out the link I posted to that other thread. That's where we argued about just exactly what you mention, extensively. Just skimming through it will be pretty educational on the subject, with input from many perspectives.

Blackoak wrote:
No kidding. I'm 5'7" and 160 lbs. Any type of grappling or stuff like this then we need weight categories. I deal with fighting guys twice my weight but I could not be competitive if they could just shield bash me out of the way.

Uric

What, you don't want ME to be able to grab you, your shield, hold you down, sit on you, and punch you with the edge of my shield?

come on.....sounds like fun!

Insane, that would be more effective than your fists alone

Now, if one could wield a wooden badger...

William

I can allow the punching of wooden badgers with SEM preapproved specially designed wooden badger punching gauntlets.
I'll write it in on your card.

"just scratch out machine gun and write in Barbecue!"
(anyone else get this reference?)

Blackoak wrote:

CathalFinnObriain wrote:You can make all the safety features you want ... but the fact remains ... with the rulset we currently have i have the ability to fight someone who is double my weight. If we allow offensive shields and bashing ... i am at a HUGE disadvantage being only 5 foot 10 and weighing in at 220. Guys who are 300-350 would just squash me in the lyst.

No kidding. I'm 5'7" and 160 lbs. Any type of grappling or stuff like this then we need weight categories. I deal with fighting guys twice my weight but I could not be competitive if they could just shield bash me out of the way.

Uric

Sure you could beat big big guys!!! Haven't you read Game of Thrones? All you have to do is wear lighter armour like that one mercenary dude, and dance around your opponent all fast like, and wear him out, and dodge when they try to grapple you, but they can't get you because you are small and fast and they are like big and slow, and then you can win against anyone who is bigger and stuff, cause everyone knows they are slow, and wear out easily!!!

That's what George R.R. Martin says anyway, and he's sold millions of books and has a TV show on now so he must be an expert on medieval style fighting, so :p

DA

Sir Omarad wrote:I can allow the punching of wooden badgers with SEM preapproved specially designed wooden badger punching gauntlets.
I'll write it in on your card.

"just scratch out machine gun and write in Barbecue!"
(anyone else get this reference?)

I will send it to you immediately. Then I will be authorized in LSBN which is either Light Saber By Night or LeSBiaN, I'm not sure which anymore, and Wooden Badger Punching. Sweeeeeeeet!

That would be awesome!

DA

MASH, but I can't tell you what episode...

DarkApprentice wrote:Sure you could beat big big guys!!! Haven't you read Game of Thrones? All you have to do is wear lighter armour like that one mercenary dude, and dance around your opponent all fast like, and wear him out, and dodge when they try to grapple you, but they can't get you because you are small and fast and they are like big and slow, and then you can win against anyone who is bigger and stuff, cause everyone knows they are slow, and wear out easily!!!

That's what George R.R. Martin says anyway, and he's sold millions of books and has a TV show on now so he must be an expert on medieval style fighting, so :p

DA

Protection vs mobility, people have been arguing about it, and making choices based on their assumptions for thousands of year.

Only pussies wear helmets, as SEALS, Rangers, etc.

People bitched about the weight of bullet-proof armor in the 16thC after they were bitching about getting shot. Then armor got so heavy they bitched about wearing it and went back to getting shot.



Ask Jehan if he'd rather wear a floppy hat or a helmet in the real world.



Hell, I'd prefer to wear an M1 Abrams!

Sir Omarad wrote:I can allow the punching of wooden badgers with SEM preapproved specially designed wooden badger punching gauntlets.
I'll write it in on your card.

Seriously, I will hand you my card next time I see you.

InsaneIrish wrote:

Sir Omarad wrote:I can allow the punching of wooden badgers with SEM preapproved specially designed wooden badger punching gauntlets.
I'll write it in on your card.

Seriously, I will hand you my card next time I see you.

OK, but only if you can tell me which show the barbecue reference came from.

Blackoak wrote:

CathalFinnObriain wrote:You can make all the safety features you want ... but the fact remains ... with the rulset we currently have i have the ability to fight someone who is double my weight. If we allow offensive shields and bashing ... i am at a HUGE disadvantage being only 5 foot 10 and weighing in at 220. Guys who are 300-350 would just squash me in the lyst.

No kidding. I'm 5'7" and 160 lbs. Any type of grappling or stuff like this then we need weight categories. I deal with fighting guys twice my weight but I could not be competitive if they could just shield bash me out of the way.

Uric

So I take it the thought of my 6'5 350 lbs being used against everyone your size is not as exciting to you as it is to me? What if I promised to have cookies waiting in camp for you afterwards?

MASH Season 2 Episode 12. The one with the incubator....
Shall I send you my card to be signed?
Olaf

Sir Omarad wrote:

InsaneIrish wrote:

Sir Omarad wrote:I can allow the punching of wooden badgers with SEM preapproved specially designed wooden badger punching gauntlets.
I'll write it in on your card.

Seriously, I will hand you my card next time I see you.

OK, but only if you can tell me which show the barbecue reference came from.

olaf haraldson wrote:MASH Season 2 Episode 12. The one with the incubator....
Shall I send you my card to be signed?
Olaf

yes.

What if you were allowed to throw the shield like Capt'n America? That'd be awesome!

Just wanted to step in and say yay for the minimum appearance rule. I know some of the fighters in those "silly" shots, and while I have respect for them I like the move to better appearance on the field

OK, are there any appearance standards for wooden badger's that have to be met before they can take the field?

Just helping

Thor-

This is Sir Angus here

I've been using what we lovingly refer to as a stabby buckler - pretty much a super short madu... Well that was until they made the no thrusting tips on 2 ends of a one handed weapon rule, so now we have one thrusting tip on it and a vestigal nub.
Anyways, its a very effective weapons, delivers very telling blows and remains within the ruleset of the SCA.
Yes, shields were used offensivly since they began to be used. You can see that in period treatise and in living arts that still use shields.
Even in the 12th century Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Gawain goes through a list of equipment and he speaks of his shield for bashing, not blocking.
Many modern medieval and ancient weapon scholars are now giving seminars where the shield is used as an extension of their fist and I even teach a class where that is a huge basic tenant of the teaching.

Perhaps the generic SCA shield would more dangerous to use with the bar grills, but that doesnt mean that people shouldnt start to make safe ones and experiment with them on thier own.

Lastly about the weight. Shields were generally lighter than what we try to make because they knew they were going to be destroyed and in fact living traditions that use leather or wicker shields do no use shields in the same way sca fighters tend to do. Its a much more fluid form that deflects and displaces blows more than straight out absorbs them.

Start experimenting with your friends and you'll see a whole new world of possibilities open up to you. You cant use your new tricks in the SCA, but you'll get a much better idea of what ancient warriors were doing.

Sir Angus

Just remember that ifyou want to try weird or new stuffthat's not allowed in the SCA you must first get permission to run an experiment or try it at a private or personal practice that is no way affiliated, sponsored, paid for, or announced, by an SCA event or by an SCA group.

Other than that ... have fun.

Sir Angus makes a good point. Shield bashing was historically used in combat. But then so was punching & kicking, tripping, shoving, tackling, grappling, and anything else that could sucessfully render an opponent dead.

Personally, I still view shield bashing as falling under the aspects of medieval combat that we in the SCA do not fight with or train in, as listed above, for the reason that it replaces actual prowess with brute strength and size advantages.

Having said that, I encourage anyone to experiment with the idea, so long as a shield bash isn't a counted blow. Far be it from me to say that a happy median cannot be found.

Still sir angus

Brute strength only beats people without skill.

Shield use needs just as much skill and technique as sword fighting. Its a much more complex art than first considered.
Maybe I can run an A+S class at pennsic to go through ther theories of agressive shield use. Any interest?

Sir Angus

Rod Walker wrote:Still sir angus


Maybe I can run an A+S class at pennsic to go through ther theories of agressive shield use. Any interest?

Sir Angus

Yep.

Rod Walker wrote:Brute strength only beats people without skill.

Sir Angus

A 5' 100# woman is going to need a LOT of skill to beat a 6'7" 350# guy at fighting, basketball, or any other activity where strength is a legitimate component.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:

Rod Walker wrote:Brute strength only beats people without skill.

Sir Angus

A 5' 100# woman is going to need a LOT of skill to beat a 6'7" 350# guy at fighting, basketball, or any other activity where strength is a legitimate component.

A lot of skill or just two words:

Cup Shot.

if you want to shield bash. helmet bash or punch with gauntlets the EMP:
EMP: http://www.empiremp.com/heavyfighting.html
its pretty wild!