HARD lance jousting.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Post Youtube links of guys getting knocked from the saddle when a lance hits correctly. I'm in an argument with an idiot.
-Vitus

[Broadway]

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." - Mark Twain

[Leo Medii]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPvtJmuyzn4

This one is my favorite.

[herrhauptmann]

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." - Mark Twain

I thought it was: "Never argue with a fool. He'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
Leo, that vid was pretty cool
What's the particular point of contention by the way?

[Aaron]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPvtJmuyzn4

This one is my favorite.

The best "double kill" I've ever seen. NOBODY would call that light!!

That being said, I keep away from jousting and horses. Better men than I ride out there to joust.

-Aaron

[Sir Omarad]

Arguing with a middle schooler is like wrestling a pig.
You both get dirty and only the pig likes it.

[Rod Walker]

You get those types of unhorsings when you use those types of lances. The dowels dont break as they should and since most guys arent wearing proper jousting gear they are always getting hurt.

You get a lot of unhorsings in balsa when people get socketted or when they socket someone and unhorse themselves.

I watched solid lance jousting with steelk coronels in 100% accurate equipment last year and there were no unhorsings and lots of proper breaks. Thats why I think that stakes were so hi in the joust if you were unhorsed. It wasnt that common.

- Sir Angus -

[Kaliban]

Proper Jousting gear ? Come on rod .. anyone can get hurt just getting up on the horse so please .. He is asking for vids on unhorseing an such .. either post some or leave it alone .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucDPu_6BIRs&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_COjAdR9 ... re=related

[Rod Walker]

Proper Jousting gear ? Come on rod .. anyone can get hurt just getting up on the horse so please .. He is asking for vids on unhorseing an such .. either post some or leave it alone .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucDPu_6BIRs&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_COjAdR9 ... re=related

That message from me above is from Sir Angus who is staying with me.

From my point of view,,,,, Bite Me.

[Rod Walker]

From SIR ANGUS-

Proper jousting gear- grappers, arrets, museum quality armour. All of those things help stop the jouster from getting hurt.
Yes anyone can get hurt getting up on a horse. I just like to minimise the probability.

- still from SIR ANGUS -

I have jousted all around the world and have never seen so many hand, arm and shoulder injuries as I have seen in the Estes Park style of jousting. Its not slamming the style. Its just an observation.

Sorry to derail the thread.

SIR ANGUS not rod walker

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

Thats why I think that stakes were so hi in the joust if you were unhorsed. It wasnt that common.

- Sir Angus -

Agree, but with the caveat the the 16th century Germans invented some pretty effective ways of ensuring unhorsings; tree-trunk like lances, nearly flat saddles, etc. Gestech and Rennen are pretty gnarly.

In a situation where the lance isn't intentionally "unbreakable", as in the 14th-15th centuries, unhorsings were also rare because jousters BLOODY WELL KNEW HOW TO RIDE. I can't say the same for the majority of modern jousters. When jousters know how to ride, it's very difficult to unhorse them. The planets must align in just the right way for it to happen, and it's extremely rare. Sadly people have a very mistaken impression of how difficult it is to unhorse someone because they're usually watching people who are poorly equipped and ride worse.

Your point about the equipment adding to people's injuries is spot on. I've said time and again that poorly made or poorly fitting equipment is equally likely to cause injury than being unhorse in itself. A properly made and fitted armour will -support- the body in an unhorsing and minimize if not completely eliminate possibility of injury.

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

I also want to add that most so-called "jousting armour" made today is made in such a way that it actually -helps- people be unhorsed. That is, the cuirass waist is too low, or the cuirass is inflexible, to the point where the rider can't move properly with the horse and thereby do everything within his power to stay on. If you can't absorb the impact and use your body correctly to remain on the horse, you will probably come off, regardless of how good a rider you are. This is where more misconceptions arise as to the awkwardness of plate armour and that it makes it difficult move. If it's built and fits right, you have more chance of riding right and staying on the horse. Crap armour = crap riding, even for those who might ride well disarmed.

[Alric of Drentha]

Sadly people have a very mistaken impression of how difficult it is to unhorse someone because they're usually watching people who are poorly equipped and ride worse.

Probably also because unhorsing is extremely common in the court romances (I assume because the characters in the romances are super-knights, and can thus unhorse their opponents all the time with their super-human skills). Is this partly a case of reading romances as reality?

[Black Swan Designs]

Taking this off topic from Vitus' query but in answer to Alric-

A romance is a fable, so the unhorsings are probably due to the superhuman abilities of the knights.

A [probably embellished but probably far] more realistic description might be found in an account, like that of Froissart, who reports the following from an encounter at Saint Englevert. Here, the opponents are striking each other with enough force to pierce shields and knock helmets off, but the riders stay on their horses-

'They couched their lances, and pointed them at each other. At the onset, their horses crossed; notwithstanding which, they met; but by this crossing, which was blamed, the earl was unhelmed. He returned to his people, who soon re-helmed him; and, having resumed their lances, they met full gallop, and hit each other with such force in the middle of their shields, that they would have been unhorsed had they not kept tight seats by the pressure of their legs against the horses’ sides. They went to the proper places, where they refreshed themselves and took breath.

Sir John Holland, who had a great desire to shine at this tournament, had his helmet braced and grasped his spear again; when the lord de Saimpi, seeing him advance on a gallop, did not decline meeting, but, spurring his horse on instantly, they gave blows on their helmets, that were luckily of well-tempered steel, which made sparks of fire fly from them. At this course, the lord de Saimpi lost his helmet; hut the two knights continued their career, and returned to their places.'

Similarly, in the deeds of Jacques de Lalaing, it was reported-

'On the third course, the knight of Auvergne struck Jacques in the middle of his shield and splintered his lance. Jacques, on the other hand, striking "with all his force and science," hit his opponent in the eyeslits. This blow struck so hard that it struck sparks from the helmet, bending the opponent backwards in the saddle until his back rested on the croup of his horse. His opponent, completely stunned, fell from his horse. The knight of Auvergne was carried unconscious to his lodgings; it was a full hour before he regained his memory, and he bled profusely from the mouth, nose, and ears.

In his last encounter of the day, Jacques struck his opponent in the middle of his shield, "bending him back onto the croup of his horse." However, this failed to unhorse him. On the second course, Jacques again carried his opponent's helm off his head. His lance struck with such force that the helm was carried 4 "toise." (A "toise" was a measure of length that seems to have been about 6 feet; thus, the helm was thrown about 24 feet by the force of the blow.)'

So, Jacques' first opponent -fell- from his horse after being knocked unconscious. The second opponent stayed on although he was struck so hard he was 'bent back onto the croup of his horse'. One reads about this 'being knocked back onto the horses' croup but not being unseated', quite frequently in the accounts.

Now back to the videos Vitus asked for.

[Signo]

Just for curiosity:
One can bleed from mouth, ears and nose ... and survive? I mean, when those things occur it's not symptom of a cranial fracture?
Thanks

[Leo Medii]

Just for curiosity:
One can bleed from mouth, ears and nose ... and survive? I mean, when those things occur it's not symptom of a cranial fracture?
Thanks

Yes.

However, there are later in life effects of the injury. I can tell you this for a fact.

[Ken Mondschein]

If you look at the construction of late medieval saddles, such as in Fiore, they give you an ungodly amount of support, with wrap-around cantles and the like. It's not like a jumping saddle!

[Black Swan Designs]

Being 'bent back over the croup of the horse'

[Lloyd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPvtJmuyzn4

This one is my favorite.

Rod and Ripper at Dragon's Lair 2003 - a Classic!

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

I'm the one on the right in the first photo Gwen posted. The other rider is Graham Nixon of New Zealand.

I remember that match very well. They were two of the hardest strikes I've ever received. Graham hit me with the solid portion of the lance so hard it flexed my (spring steel) visor to the point where it struck my jaw and stress my jaw muscles. Quite uncomfortable. As Gwen points out, I was also laid nearly flat on the back of the horse. I did NOT, however, get unhorsed. Because I ride centered, rather than leaning to one side or the other, I was pushed straight back, counteracting any sideways forces with my body and legs, so I stayed on. The horses running close to the tilt and the angle of impact being nearly square on helped me do my job of staying on. Had the strike been at more of an angle, I would have had a harder time staying on, but in that case the strength of the blow would have been much less.

There are a huge number of varying forces at play in this game, most of which are unpredictable. Riding is part of it, but not all of it, so I can't claim full credit for staying on. I did my part of it, to the best of my ability. The angles and the horse make up the rest.

[Black Swan Designs]

--The angles and the horse make up the rest.--

My Pete in both cases....

All joking and proud parent beaming aside, the horse can make a huge difference. There was a pass between Dominic Sewell and Steve Mallet a number of years ago in which Steve hit Dom so hard that Steve catapulted himself out of the saddle. Video footage after the impact revealed that Dominic's left knee was the only part of him in contact with the saddle, and his horse Hawthorn did a quick 'sashay' to get under him and carry him the rest of the way down the tilt.

Anybody who says the horses are not an important part of this game has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

[Wouter Nicolai]

A translation of Franceso Sforza's jousting regulations does mention unhorsing. It is unclear to me what style of jousting it refers to, or how to interprete this information in a practical sence. I think it is possible that the "low saddles" are riding saddles or even those flat profiled saddles for the rennen, the "arched saddles" war- or tournament saddles. It of course doesn't say how common unhorsings were.
Some parts I found interesting:

"Notice being given that the arched saddles must be according to the customary form and that the low saddles be German: those of this form must be presented to the masters of the saddles without any deceit, as was stated. It being understood that in the said low saddles no secret or obvious device can be applied, apart from the breastplate and the feather cushion"

"Item, if one of the jousters falls, he may not joust again, except if he falls through a collision, or if his horse is injured or maimed by an opponent, or if he falls
by himself without being struck, in such cases he may continue jousting, and change horses."

"if any of those jousting in low saddles falls twice, if he recovers to the point of being able to remount his horse for a third time, he may compete and win the prize, if he does not fall again."

"if any jouster strikes his opponent in such a way that he knocks him out of his saddle, and he falls to the ground: or if he knocks both the horse and his opponent to the ground, this shall be scored as four hits."

this comes from "Regulations for the Joust in Fifteenth-Century Europe: Francesco Sforza Visconti (1465) and John Tiptoft (1466)" by JOACHIM K. RÜHL
The article should be findable on internet.

[Kaliban]

Sorry rod but Bite you I will not .. and Sorry since it is posted under your name .. But My apologies.

As for Armour .. any armour not made right can effect .. most of us who wear armour know this .

And yes there is a difference to someone who can ride and someone who cannot ride well .

And whatever Angus

[Black Swan Designs]

Hey Wouter, is that article available anywhere for free, or only for purchase?

Thanks-

Gwen

[Wouter Nicolai]

The article can be purchased/downloaded at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/714001557

[raito]

Anybody who says the horses are not an important part of this game has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

Every single jouster I know of is a horse person first.

[Rod Walker]

How about an Un-Quadding?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGYGx3OAT_8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmhTK-skK4M

[Lloyd]

How about an Un-Quadding?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGYGx3OAT_8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmhTK-skK4M

Damn, that should have been me down there. Looks great, Brother!