Future of SCA fighting

[Duke Areus]

BTW let me tell you and anyone else who uses this "temperature argument" something: stop being a wuss. Man up and wear some armor and clothing. Make it out of the right materials so you don't bake. And then WORK OUT SOME and GET IN SHAPE. Plenty of people from all over the country wear the right stuff in places where it's hot. Wearing pants over armor is not a problem for Florida- plenty of people do it there and don't die, and fight well.


"Florida" is not an excuse for not wearing good armor. People from "hot zones" all over the country wear the right stuff and fight at top levels while looking good.

g-

Average High temp in Destin Fla:


Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
Avg. High 60° 64° 70° 77° 84° 90° 91° 90° 88° 80° 71° 64°
Avg. Low 36° 38° 46° 54° 61° 67° 70° 70° 66° 54° 46° 38°


Average High Phoenix AZ:


Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
Avg. High 67° 72° 77° 86° 95° 104° 106° 104° 98° 88° 76° 67°
Avg. Low 37° 40° 44° 48° 56° 64° 74° 74° 66° 55° 44° 38°


Hottest recorded temperatures:

State Temp Date Station Elevation (feet)
Ala. 112 Sept. 5, 1925 Centerville 345
Alaska 100 June 27, 1915 Ft. Yukon 420*
Ariz. 128 June 29, 1994 Lake Havasu 505
Ark. 120 Aug. 10, 1936 Ozark 396
Calif. 134 July 10, 1913 Death Valley N/A
Colo. 118 July 11, 1888 Bennett 5,484
Conn. 106 July 15, 1995 Danbury 450
Del. 110 July 21, 1930 Millsboro 20
Fla. 109 June 29, 1931 Monticello 207
Ga. 112 July 24, 1952 Louisville 132
Hawaii 100 April 27,1931 Pahala 850
Idaho 118 July 28, 1934 Orofino 1,027
Ill. 117 July 14, 1954 E. St Louis 410
Ind. 116 July 14, 1936 Collegeville 672
Iowa 118 July 20, 1934 Keokuk 614
Kansas 121 July 24, 1936 Alton 1,651
Ky. 114 July 28, 1930 Greensburg 581
La. 114 Aug. 10, 1936 Plain Dealing 268
Maine 105 July 10, 1911 N. Bridgton 450
Md. 109 July 10, 1936 Cumberland and Frederick 623, 325
Mass. 107 Aug. 2, 1975 New Bedford and Chester 120, 640
Mich. 112 July 13, 1936 Mio 963
Minn. 114 July 6, 1936 Moorhead 904
Miss. 115 July 29, 1930 Holly Springs 600
Mo 118 July 14, 1954 Warsaw and Union 705, 560
Mont. 117 July 5, 1937 Medicine Lake 1,950
Neb. 118 July 24, 1936 Minden 2,169
Nev. 125 June 29, 1994 Laughlin 605
N.H. 106 July 4, 1911 Nashua 125
N.J. 110 July 10, 1936 Runyon 18
N.M. 122 June 27, 1994 Lakewood N/A
N.Y. 108 July 22, 1926 Troy 35
N.C. 110 Aug. 21, 1983 Fayetteville 213
N.D. 121 July 6, 1936 Steele 1,857
Ohio 113 July 21, 1934 Gallipolis 673
Okla. 120 June 27, 1994 Tipton 1,350
Ore. 119 Aug. 10, 1898 Pendleton 1,074
Pa. 111 July 10, 1936 Phoenixville 100
R.I. 104 Aug. 2, 1975 Providence 51
S.C. 111 June 28, 1954 Camden 170
S.D. 120 July 15, 2006 Kelly Ranch/Usta 2,339
Tenn. 113 Aug. 9, 1930 Perryville 377
Texas 120 Aug. 12, 1936 Seymour 1,291
Utah 117 July 5, 1985 Saint George 2,880
Vt. 105 July 4, 1911 Vernon 310
Va. 110 July 15, 1954 Balcony Falls 725
Wash. 118 Aug. 5, 1961 Ice Harbor Dam 475 475
W. Va. 112 July 10, 1936 Martinsburg 435
Wis. 114 July 13, 1936 Wisconsin Dells 900
Wyo. 116 Aug. 8, 1983 Basin 3,500

Humidity does play a factor (Pennsic is always wierd to non-gill having Desert dwellers) and so does the fact that the published temp is always a lie, especially in the desert (ask me sometime about the Las Vegas tourist board asking us to set our thermometer on the sign outside of work 15 degrees cooler during the summer so we didn't scare the tourists).

We regularly fight in 109 degrees at 8 pm, and I work in 110-118 all day long all summer every summer. So everybody add 10 degrees to your high, then come back and tell me about the heat.

[Aaron]

But, it's a dry heat!

[Saritor]

But, it's a dry heat!

Baked, broiled....you're still in an oven.

[Whitewolf Sr.]

So is stickin' your head in an oven........it's a dry heat...

[Jofthepeace]

So heat your oven up to 250 degrees....

Now get a pot of water to 250 degrees...

stick your left arm inside the oven....does it burn the skin? Can you withstand the heat for a time?

Now stick your right hand in the 250 degree water.....

I think I made my point

[Diglach Mac Cein]

OK, forgive me - big rant warning.



All in all, Samurai, Early period, Late Period, Norse, French, lots of armor, little armor, spear, sword, shields, maces, etc. etc. etc...

One question -

ARE YOU HAVING FUN?

Want to know what might drive new people away? Showing up at events or practices, or maybe checking out an online forum and listening to people bitch and moan and complain and whine about the SCA combat game, and they gotta wonder why they should even waste their time. Or they give it a shot, have people bitch and complain about them not "doing it right" and say "screw this".

You're letting someone else totally dictate if you are enjoying yourself. The Roman with the greatsword - is he REALLY destroying the SCA? What's more important at the end - that he not use the greatsword, or that he is a BLAST to fight with it?

It's SCA combat. For all the limitations, less than perfect rules, plastic armor, Samurai vs Knights, knee fighting, etc...

...isn't fighting STILL fun? Isn't it better to be in armor - ANY armor, swinging rattan at a buddy in the spirit of comradeship that the SCA really has (like rugby players - if you don't do it, you won't get it) than mowing the lawn, or sitting behind a computer screen playing WoW? Is helping a new fighter to upgrade their gear, or see what happens when they "get" the idea behind a certain blow in practice still a cool feeling? Even if there is one goober, or 10 at an event, aren't there people who you DO enjoy fighting? Looking across the field at Estrella, Gulf War, Lillies or Pennsic - do you still get a bit of butterflies before the "Lay On"?

If no - maybe the problem is you.

Me? I'm the schlub who due to health issues and real life has been in armor exactly ONCE since last PENNSIC, and maybe 6 times since January 2010. Who feels miserable everytime he hears about a great event he had to miss, who doesn't even GO to Crown Tourney becuase not being able to fight like I did even two years ago puts me into a real emotional tailspin. Who gets along better with Vitus, Leo, and scores of SCA folk better than members of MY OWN family - and I really don't get to see them. Who can't wait for Pennsic, but is dreading that he won't really be able to really "go" in the battles. Who kicks himself for being TOTALLY jealous of Cellach and Ser Nikolas and HRM Arch becuase they still can fight all freaking day.

Who is working and hoping that I can maybe improve 10-15% from where I am right now, get back on the field and fight for another 5 years or so. Maybe 10. And knows it might not be realistic.

And people bitch that the SCA is ending becuase of "what the other guy wears".

Sorry for the rant. I just needed to say that.

D-
.

[Aaron]

So far, in summary to help heavy fighting:

1. Warbands.

2. Hot girls at practice and events (yes, we're mostly men fighting and we'll follow a cute girl anywhere ).

3. Good loaner armour.

4. Mentorship: Take a newbie under your wing and help make good armour for them and weapons. (NOTE: It has often been commented that newbies in armour stay fighting about 10% of the time. But it's better than 0%)

5. Armour workshops: Pounding steel is fun.

6. Be inclusive: "Don't be a hater."

7. Historical appearance upon the heavy fighting field

8. Make sure it's fun.

9. Cross-training from fencing, CA, A&S, Amtguard, etc...is good. And it's good if we (heavy fighters) go to them and join their sport and enjoy it. And then there is a better chance of them joining us.

10. Do NOT let Aaron start threads on the Archive, they could be misused, like handing firearms to children.

11. Keep the SCA off the internet and our laundry off it too.

12. Stop complaining, especially on the net.

13. Fix yourself first before you look at others. Plank in the eye comment...

[Maeryk]

So far, in summary to help heavy fighting:

1. Warbands.

2. Hot girls at practice and events (yes, we're mostly men fighting and we'll follow a cute girl anywhere ).

3. Good loaner armour.

4. Mentorship: Take a newbie under your wing and help make good armour for them and weapons. (NOTE: It has often been commented that newbies in armour stay fighting about 10% of the time. But it's better than 0%)

5. Armour workshops: Pounding steel is fun.

6. Be inclusive: "Don't be a hater."

7. Historical appearance upon the heavy fighting field

8. Make sure it's fun.

9. Cross-training from fencing, CA, A&S, Amtguard, etc...is good. And it's good if we (heavy fighters) go to them and join their sport and enjoy it. And then there is a better chance of them joining us.

10. Do NOT let Aaron start threads on the Archive, they could be misused, like handing firearms to children.

11. Keep the SCA off the internet and our laundry off it too.

12. Stop complaining, especially on the net.

13. Fix yourself first before you look at others. Plank in the eye comment...

"hot girls at fight practices"? Really? After the several DOZEN threads we have had about the already less than sterling treatment many women recieve in the SCA, as well as the apalling attitudes some men in the SCA have about a woman's place and such, you want to encourage more "meat on a hook" ogling?

Think man.

[Aaron]

Sorry, it was a suggestion. And...I know I fight because my wife was fighting first. I knew about the SCA before I met her but thought heavy fighting was rather silly. So one "hot girl" got me to fight and stay fighting.

But you are right, it could be misused easily.

-Aaron

[Maeryk]

"Ladies as a source of inspiration".. much better wording, much LESS baggage.

[raito]

There were guns during the times of both knights and samurai.

Nissan isn't being punished for wearing japanese armour. He isn't being punished at all. He chooses to play an antagonistic role and operates outside of the crown, usually in opposition to it.

Part of times, yes. Samurai only lasted for a thousand years or so, and at least part of that time, there were no guns. Knights did much the same, except that they still exist, if you sing or something.

As a complementary view to the second comment, I wear Japanese armour and I've operated from inside the Crown. Literally.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

GWAR inspired

You say that like it's a bad thing...

[Maeryk]

GWAR inspired

You say that like it's a bad thing...

"GOOD TO THE CUTTLEFISH"
"aghlaghaghlahghgalgalaghahhhhhhgurglechoke"

[Amanda M]

Hot is just hot. At a certain point when you put all your gear on it's just miserable. Havasu is awful in the summer, even hours after the sun goes down. I used to drive down there for practice every week.

[CiaranBlackrune]

"Ladies as a source of inspiration".. much better wording, much LESS baggage.

One of the things that hooked me at my first fighter practice was a hot redhead in full plate.

/drool

[Maeryk]

I'm in no way saying they don't exist.. I'm saying the phrasing is more indicative of having cage or shadow dancers on the wall during FP, than women of inspiration and encouragement, ya dig?

Let's try NOT to objectify women whenever possible.. this is something we already have a big problem with.

[Count Johnathan]

I haven't noticed this being a problem. Many women enjoy being the objects of desire. Those who aren't are normally the ones who have the biggest issues with it.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Objectivication is about looking at them as body parts, not people.

[MJBlazek]

I haven't noticed this being a problem. Many women enjoy being the objects of desire. Those who aren't are normally the ones who have the biggest issues with it.

Fell that? My wife just mentally slapped you!
She is a beautiful woman, absolutely gorgeous. She is also a brilliant professional. She does not want to be looked at as an "OBJECT" of desire.

[Amanda M]

I would say that generally women (and men too probably) want to be desired but the connotation of being an 'object' of desire is quite different.

Anyhow it's pretty far off topic.

[Whitewolf Sr.]

So what has all of this got to do with the future of "Rattan Baton" fighting? ......

Sr.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Guys chasing women away from the SCA because they can't behave around women.

[Count Johnathan]

That's odd, I got my wife involved in the SCA when I met her. I guess I'm doing my part. She seemed to like me being a good rattan fighter.

So I guess this is now about how if you are a good rattan fighter, girls will like you. How's that for some incentive?

[Aaron]

That's odd, I got my wife involved in the SCA when I met her. I guess I'm doing my part. She seemed to like me being a good rattan fighter.

So I guess this is now about how if you are a good rattan fighter, girls will like you. How's that for some incentive?

So to attract more female fighters, we need to have more SCA royals?

-Aaron

[Finnacan]

Johnathan,

That might fly as a way to recruit new rattan fighters if rattan fighting was the primary way to get amorous attention, but rapier gets plenty of romance as well.

Heck, I was elevated to the Order of the Laurel for storytelling. I've been a performer most of my SCA career. I had a fine time when I was single.

Frankly, the whole meat market aspect of the SCA doesn't need any extra marketing, IMHO.

The people we have joining like to party as much as the next person, but they are often seeking more than that. They could sit at home and watch TV or play games or read books, but they want to get their hands dirty and get the family out of the house to do something valid, entertaining and perhaps enlightening.

I think the best marketing comes from seeing something really cool and having someone tell you, with complete sincerity, "You can do that, no problem."
...Whatever that may be.

[Duke Areus]

OK, forgive me - big rant warning.



All in all, Samurai, Early period, Late Period, Norse, French, lots of armor, little armor, spear, sword, shields, maces, etc. etc. etc...

One question -

ARE YOU HAVING FUN?

Want to know what might drive new people away? Showing up at events or practices, or maybe checking out an online forum and listening to people bitch and moan and complain and whine about the SCA combat game, and they gotta wonder why they should even waste their time. Or they give it a shot, have people bitch and complain about them not "doing it right" and say "screw this".

You're letting someone else totally dictate if you are enjoying yourself. The Roman with the greatsword - is he REALLY destroying the SCA? What's more important at the end - that he not use the greatsword, or that he is a BLAST to fight with it?

It's SCA combat. For all the limitations, less than perfect rules, plastic armor, Samurai vs Knights, knee fighting, etc...

...isn't fighting STILL fun? Isn't it better to be in armor - ANY armor, swinging rattan at a buddy in the spirit of comradeship that the SCA really has (like rugby players - if you don't do it, you won't get it) than mowing the lawn, or sitting behind a computer screen playing WoW? Is helping a new fighter to upgrade their gear, or see what happens when they "get" the idea behind a certain blow in practice still a cool feeling? Even if there is one goober, or 10 at an event, aren't there people who you DO enjoy fighting? Looking across the field at Estrella, Gulf War, Lillies or Pennsic - do you still get a bit of butterflies before the "Lay On"?

If no - maybe the problem is you.

Me? I'm the schlub who due to health issues and real life has been in armor exactly ONCE since last PENNSIC, and maybe 6 times since January 2010. Who feels miserable everytime he hears about a great event he had to miss, who doesn't even GO to Crown Tourney becuase not being able to fight like I did even two years ago puts me into a real emotional tailspin. Who gets along better with Vitus, Leo, and scores of SCA folk better than members of MY OWN family - and I really don't get to see them. Who can't wait for Pennsic, but is dreading that he won't really be able to really "go" in the battles. Who kicks himself for being TOTALLY jealous of Cellach and Ser Nikolas and HRM Arch becuase they still can fight all freaking day.

Who is working and hoping that I can maybe improve 10-15% from where I am right now, get back on the field and fight for another 5 years or so. Maybe 10. And knows it might not be realistic.

And people bitch that the SCA is ending becuase of "what the other guy wears".

Sorry for the rant. I just needed to say that.

D-
.

Sir, You just made my list of awesome.......

[Duke Areus]

That's odd, I got my wife involved in the SCA when I met her. I guess I'm doing my part. She seemed to like me being a good rattan fighter.

So I guess this is now about how if you are a good rattan fighter, girls will like you. How's that for some incentive?

Looking at my track record, it seems to work for me as well, but it could just be my undeniable wit and boyish charm.....

[Dauyd]

I think the "hot girls" thing can help, but not just in a ""wanna get in her pants" way. I think it helps more in putting out a better image.

At my practices, we've held them in the same park for years. The same 3 or 4 pudgy 40 year old guys fighting with swords. We never got any interest. Honestly, when the public sees a few guys like us, I'm sure the first assumption is ""Check it out- the WoW server must be down".

Last fall, we had one young, pretty gal start showing up. A couple weeks later, a couple of her young, VERY attractive friends started showing up. Next thing I knew, I was averaging 15 people at each practice, and I actually had to actively STOP recruiting because I simply didn't have enough gear to handle any more.

I'm sure some of the intitial interest was of the "I wanna check out the hot chicks" variety, but I think the bigger issue was one of image. We went from a few guys that people probably thought got kicked out of their parents basement because WoW was down to what looked like a group of really cool people having a ton of fun, and might be fun to hang out with.

I also think it help out in the fact that it looks more approachable. Those that didn't think we were nerds likely figured we had been training for years and that is was too hard to learn. Throw a few young people, especially young girls, and suddenly it becomes something that anybody can do.

[Cedric Adolphus]

Our practice is comprised almost entirely of college guys. Our ladies all attend every practice. It is immeasurably easier to come off as something normal and non "Role Models" when it's obvious every guy they are seeing fight and fulfill their childhood dreams gets to go home with an attractive college girl who thinks what they do as awesome.

It helps (shallow as it may be) to legitimize our activity to the people who just bump into the Society not knowing what its truly about

[Ewen MacSuibhne]

Cedric, from what I have seen your practice is indoors and out of sight. While you have attractive ladies, and young athletic men, it doesn't do much good unless you are actively looking for your group. That is how I found you guys. You need to be seen to recruit better.

[MJBlazek]

I don't think having good looking people attending a practice ads legitimacy to any group. I think it makes us all feel less nerdy. Legitimacy would be saying you are recreating the look of a time period for your persona and actually recreating that look.

That being said though... beautiful people can make anything look better!

*edited for typing error*

[Ewen MacSuibhne]

It doesn't add any legitimency to the group, but it will attract people. If you were a 20something who was mildly interested in sword fighting would you be drawn to a group comprised of middle aged fat guys or attractive people in your age bracket?

[MJBlazek]

being in the ame age bracket doesnt nesecarily make them good looking.
I was attracted to the look of the group as a whole. In my area there are some quality kits out thre. That is what I find neat.
If I had shown up to a practice and it had been nothing but hockey gear and pickle barrels it could have been Angelina Jolie in it and I wouldn't have come to more than 2 practices.. well.. for Angie.. maybe 3

[St. George]

I don't think having good lookign people attending a practice ads legitimacy to any group. I think it makes us all feel less nerdy. Legitimacy would be saying you are recreating the look of a time period for your persona and actually recreating that look.

That being said though... beautiful people can make anything look better!

I completely disagree. Legitimacy is a not a question you can answer for other people, as it can only be answered by the spectator or audience for themselves. For you, legitimacy is measured by recreating the look and feel of a time period. If someone cares about socializing, however, then the measure of legitimacy would be measured by how well they can successfully do that there and with whom without recreation even entering into the element. In this case if the spectator is swayed by seeing not necessarily attractive but rather normal, not obese, non dorky women. The group is filled up with what a spectator might conceive of as being "normal" to them, as in like attracts like.

"Regular guys and regular gals" don't even conceive of joining the SCA not simply because of the costumes, creeps, weirdos, and other outside the social norm stuff, but because the flock of people who play the SCA are not socially average enough for socially average people to desire to integrate with them.

FYI The Bloomington practice is weather dependent. Half the year it is indoors out of necessity, the other half it is outdoors at a members home. Unfortunately, the half of the year when students are in town is also the half of the year it needs to be indoors.

There are three distinct factors to SCA involvement 1) social, 2) fighting/arts 3) medievalness. I have separated fighting/arts and medievalness because they are distinct. Someone might enjoy brewing but not medievalness for example. Any one of these areas might have a strong enough attraction for someone to join the group, same with any combination, and likewise any one of these things might push people away.

In answering why people don't join the SCA, though, the people of the SCA, our greatest strength, are also our biggest weakness. People don't want to join the SCA first and foremost because of the people in the SCA. There is no desire on the part of average people to want to hang out with us. There is nothing that we offer the average guy that he can't get more easily (and maybe of a perceptual higher quality) and without being derided for being a dork somewhere else. Without overcoming that basically insurmountable object, it will always be difficult to recruit and maintain membership in the SCA.

g-

[shinyhalo]

The lamellae bend inward too much under a man's strength. Period. I don't care how awesome someone thinks their lamellar is. Even a half strength thrust with a 2" head spear can crack those ribs through it. I'd use it for screwing around or one vs one vs a 1-H sword, but I wouldn't fight a 2Hander sword with it. Clavicles go bye bye.

I just want to second Alaric "wut??" here. Lamellar is probably the best all-around SCA armor for mobility and protection. Mine is made of those old white mountain 20 (?) gauge stainless steel plates laced with paracord. I wear a tunic and underarmor under it - no gambeson or padding. The worst thing that ever happens is that once is a while a get a shot the catches my nipple right at the edge of the plates and it kinda rubs it. My lamellar doesn't even COVER my clavicles... but I agree if you were fighting a lot of great weapons v. great weapon you probably want some real armor there or at least padding.

In fact - how can what you said be true? Probably 10% (maybe more!) of the fighters in the SCA DON'T WEAR ANYTHING AT ALL for body armor, other than the required "kidney protection" which is usually around their waist/lower spine. Any lamellar - unless you have sharp things pointing inward - is going to be better than that. Do ribs get cracked? Sometimes... but it's hardly commonplace.

In my experience, the reality is that people wielding 2H and spear ease WAY off the power.
There is no other explanation. I'ven been speared plenty and once some guy came to apologize in case it was too hard.
Even in 1H fights I rarely see full power connections and once when I saw such a connect there were ooohs and ahhhs from everyone. It sounded different too. It was a very loud crack and the guy that got hit (in the back) seemed momentarily stunned.
I'd rather see safer weapons that can be used full force than...
More deadly weapons that we have to patty cake with.