The Armour Archive

See, I was at that Blackstone Raids, and in my experience, we (Midrealm) were thrusting at the Midrealm standard which is not a "touch". Some guys took them, some guys didn't. I know I heard a few fighters comment that some shots weren't taken, but I personally didn't see anyone getting "steamed". I know the Midrealm Commander did mention the fact to the Aethlemarch side, but I wasn't there to hear it. I DO know that that particular commander is not a proponent of "anything that touches".

If I hit a 5 guys from 5 different kingdoms with the same basic shot, and only one doesn't take it... Is everyone else wrong?


.

Hehe. Except for that one crown you won for Rowan.

dukelogan wrote:of course not. but if i did face thrust, which happens once every 10,000 blows or so, i would throw a hard and solid one.

regards
logan

Diglach mac Cein wrote:So, if you were visiting a Kingdom with a lighter calibration that yours, you would refrain from face thrusting?

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I missed this year but I was at the BSR that Logan is talking about, and I have fought against my noble brothers of the Midrealm, many, many, many times.

You guys want to be hit hard and you hit hard. I'm ok with that. That's how we play too, as does the East.

It did feel like _at that particular event_ that we were being asked to fight a very dirty double standard. Most of the time it isn't the case. Sir Diglach, limp wristed old man that he is ( ), is still my brother in arms on the field. He fights honorable and desires a strong, but clean blow. I've seen him fight, and fought with and against him.

I have a feel we are all much more in line that our rhetoric would suggest.

Yup.

I really wish we would get away from terms like -

"Touch"
"Positive force" (So is negative force when I PULL him be the grill?)
etc....

Just say "A face thrust needs to be significantly less forcefull than a thrust to the body, but delivered in such a way that the recipient is certain of the intent of the blow."

That's just me though...

.

well when you cant seem to land anything hard enough you sometimes have to suck it up and throw a thrust to the chin as hard as you can. i threw two, both landed, i won. so i guess it can be said that ive won a crown with face thrusts. ya know, with that getting out there and the machida/couture fight (which has removed my ability to state firmly that nobody has ever once won a fight using karate) im running low on statements that are undeniable facts of the universe!!

thanks brother.....

logan

BdeB wrote:Hehe. Except for that one crown you won for Rowan.

dukelogan wrote:of course not. but if i did face thrust, which happens once every 10,000 blows or so, i would throw a hard and solid one.

regards
logan

Diglach mac Cein wrote:So, if you were visiting a Kingdom with a lighter calibration that yours, you would refrain from face thrusting?

.

Haha!

Hello, My name is BRYCE DE BYRAM, and i'm here to help!!!!

And with what consistency do you kill or incapacitate anybody.... really.... Is that how you call your blows? I think not!


Thor-

dukelogan wrote:the guy with a spear embedded into his skull to any degree, i think, would probably be removed from the fight. i sure would be. now lets see someone do any damage with a spear by merely touching someones skull. that is the problem. now add a maille drape on top of that and the concept of light or touch thrusts becomes even more ridiculous. "besting" someone should require skill, touching someone doesnt. beside, the rules even state that a good blow is one that would kill or incapcitate someone. touching someone and calling it "good" doesnt jive with that rule. unless its herbert from spooner street of course!

regards
logan

Peikko wrote:sigh...there is indeed a difference between "killed out right" and "removed from the fight". Yes, the human body can indeed take an amazing level of trauma and survive...however the individual with a spear through his head is, if not killed instantly, most likely curled up in the fetal position in a world of hurt and is no longer a viable combatant. Sure he may survive, but he's no longer in the fight.

This is what I've always felt SCA rattan fighting represented.

not sure what you mean.

logan

Thorstenn wrote:And with what consistency do you kill or incapacitate anybody.... really.... Is that how you call your blows? I think not!


Thor-

dukelogan wrote:the guy with a spear embedded into his skull to any degree, i think, would probably be removed from the fight. i sure would be. now lets see someone do any damage with a spear by merely touching someones skull. that is the problem. now add a maille drape on top of that and the concept of light or touch thrusts becomes even more ridiculous. "besting" someone should require skill, touching someone doesnt. beside, the rules even state that a good blow is one that would kill or incapcitate someone. touching someone and calling it "good" doesnt jive with that rule. unless its herbert from spooner street of course!

regards
logan

Peikko wrote:sigh...there is indeed a difference between "killed out right" and "removed from the fight". Yes, the human body can indeed take an amazing level of trauma and survive...however the individual with a spear through his head is, if not killed instantly, most likely curled up in the fetal position in a world of hurt and is no longer a viable combatant. Sure he may survive, but he's no longer in the fight.

This is what I've always felt SCA rattan fighting represented.

BdeB wrote:Haha!

Hello, My name is BRYCE DE BYRAM, and i'm here to help!!!!

Anyone else feel a disturbance in the force just now???

My point is we do not fight to that standard (to kill or incapacitate)

"beside, the rules even state that a good blow is one that would kill or incapcitate someone." I have seen you call blows and walk off the field, I have seen you let your opponents call blows and walk off the field. So you nor I call at that level. Who does?

Thor-


[quote="dukelogan"]not sure what you mean.

logan

And here i thought this was just a Phineas Gage thread...

Though I haven't run into anyone here who throws at the face thrusts anywhere near the power we throw body thrusts at.

Single handed sword I throw them with the same power. Fiberglass spear I might pull a little to the face. I think it's absolutely true that Kingdoms that allow side/top of the head thrusting face thrust harder - since there is something to be gained if you miss face and hit head. People generally take lighter to the face than they do to the head. I can't even judge body shots - totally depends on the wearer and the armor not just the power of the shot.

I think what it boils down to is whether it's possible for your helm to bottom out on your face. In my opinion, if this happens it's a strapping failure. Helm not tight/not fitting/only 2 point strap. Atlantia in my experience is pretty good about this... other Kingdoms' not so much.

sure we do, according to the rules. do we hit that hard? i have no idea if we do or not. ive never hit someone with an actual sword. perhaps you have, i dont know.

what i was commenting on was that our rules suggest that we are to strike with blows that would kill or incapacitate someone. regardless if we do hit that hard or not are you suggesting that mere contact or light jabs to the face with a sword would do either? even without a maille drape the concept of that is ridiculous. anyway, that is the only thing i was commenting on regarding thrusts to the face.

regards
logan

Thorstenn wrote:My point is we do not fight to that standard (to kill or incapacitate)

"beside, the rules even state that a good blow is one that would kill or incapcitate someone." I have seen you call blows and walk off the field, I have seen you let your opponents call blows and walk off the field. So you nor I call at that level. Who does?

Thor-

dukelogan wrote:not sure what you mean.

logan

oh my god (and little baby jesus)! hard face thrusts?! surely you have broken necks, whiplashed folks, broken their teeth, and all of the other deadly injury type things those who suggest light taps are the only safe way to thrust to the face (not to mention those who think the human head is like an over filled water balloon).

bad sigifrith..... no grundle.


logan

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:And here i thought this was just a Phineas Gage thread...

Though I haven't run into anyone here who throws at the face thrusts anywhere near the power we throw body thrusts at.

Single handed sword I throw them with the same power. Fiberglass spear I might pull a little to the face. I think it's absolutely true that Kingdoms that allow side/top of the head thrusting face thrust harder - since there is something to be gained if you miss face and hit head. People generally take lighter to the face than they do to the head. I can't even judge body shots - totally depends on the wearer and the armor not just the power of the shot.

I think what it boils down to is whether it's possible for your helm to bottom out on your face. In my opinion, if this happens it's a strapping failure. Helm not tight/not fitting/only 2 point strap. Atlantia in my experience is pretty good about this... other Kingdoms' not so much.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:

BdeB wrote:Haha!

Hello, My name is BRYCE DE BYRAM, and i'm here to help!!!!

Anyone else feel a disturbance in the force just now???

Hey man, Han Shot First!

Besides, chicks dig a man in a sexy white uniform!

I thought my brother Logan was going to love the original post.

But THIS one, I can't even begin to imagine how happy it will make him. (Aside from that the tattoos aren't really very good.)

Took a moment to debate whether to post the pic or a link to it, but better to not offend/make anyone lose their lunch.

SFW, but NSFTS Not Safe For The Squeamish.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/5815102257_0c4797fd9e_b.jpg

Tattoos, accurate. Haircut, unfortunate.

ouchie

yep, i already have that on my collection. i need the backstory on him and what, if any, damage he suffered (besde some stiches). im sure him, and the dozens of others i have already collected, just have super skulls since we know a light jab to the face with a pointy thing is auto-death. but the backstory is important as well. i have a bunch o guys stabbed in the face with knives, pipes, shanks, one with a machette, etc that either fought off their attacker, fled, or both. none of them as tough as the 6 year chinese boy with the arrow under his eye, through his brain, to the back of his skull that walked home and waited for his mother to come back from the market. lucky little fella!

of course this guy should not be a surprise, i mean he tattooed the facts that he aint goin nowhere right on his chest! niiiiice!!

regards
logan

Corby de la Flamme wrote:I thought my brother Logan was going to love the original post.

But THIS one, I can't even begin to imagine how happy it will make him. (Aside from that the tattoos aren't really very good.)

Took a moment to debate whether to post the pic or a link to it, but better to not offend/make anyone lose their lunch.

SFW, but NSFTS Not Safe For The Squeamish.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/5815102257_0c4797fd9e_b.jpg

Just curious but which Kingdoms allow thrusts to the side and top of helms as good. I have played all over the SCA and have been told pretty much every where that the sides and top are thrust proof.

I know people get wound up about this but as Duke Olaf told me years ago, 90% of the shots we take would not kill anyone in armor. However many would stop the other guy long enough for you to get that second and third shot in free and the fight would be over.

Vebrand

and for every one of these, there's a guy who got punched, fell down, and died. I don't think you can use extraordinary examples to set a baseline.

find one. find one example of the human body being so fragile as to suggest that a light tap to the face with a weapon would do anything, much less kill or incapacitate someone. the trick here is that ive never suggested the human body can take everything thrown at it. never said that. what i maintain is that the notion a lot of folks have that suggests light shots to the face or even mere contact thrusts with weapons would end a fight are preposterous. evidence like this proves that the human body is very rugged, now lets see you display the opposite so we have a baseline between the two. show me the guy who died from a tap.

logan

Maeryk wrote:and for every one of these, there's a guy who got punched, fell down, and died. I don't think you can use extraordinary examples to set a baseline.

dukelogan wrote:find one. find one example of the human body being so fragile as to suggest that a light tap to the face with a weapon would do anything, much less kill or incapacitate someone. the trick here is that ive never suggested the human body can take everything thrown at it. never said that. what i maintain is that the notion a lot of folks have that suggests light shots to the face or even mere contact thrusts with weapons would end a fight are preposterous. evidence like this proves that the human body is very rugged, now lets see you display the opposite so we have a baseline between the two. show me the guy who died from a tap.

logan

Maeryk wrote:and for every one of these, there's a guy who got punched, fell down, and died. I don't think you can use extraordinary examples to set a baseline.

Ughh.. Find the evidence that one shot in a professionally made helmet with a single handed sword would kill. or that one shot to a maille armored leg would. That's the logical trap. We don't FIGHT to submission or injury.. we fight to a pre-approved standard that is safe for everyone involved.

FORT COLLINS, Colo. – Police said Nathan Engle, 24, died on Monday after he was punched in the face by 24-year-old Terance Dejuan Wilson at about 1:40 a.m. Saturday.
Engle’s uncle was with him when it happened and says there was no confrontation between his nephew and Wilson – his nephew just happened to walk between Wilson and another man. When he did, Wilson turned and delivered a sucker punch to Engle’s face causing him to fall and strike his head on the pavement.

TRABUCO CANYON, Calif. (KABC) -- A man was killed after being punched in the face in a parking lot of an Orange County nightclub early Thanksgiving morning.

Thanksgiving will never be the same for the Hubbard family.

At around 1:40 a.m. Thursday, 27-year-old C.J. Hubbard was leaving Code Restaurant and Lounge in 4200 block of Striker Way in Newport Beach with a friend.

"I got the call that every parent dreads in the middle of the night," said Clint Hubbard, C.J.'s father.

It was the last time his loved ones would see him alive.

"If he saw something that he didn't feel was great, he's the type of guy that would say, 'Hey, this isn't great,' and he might have paid for that," said James Johnson, Hubbard's brother-in-law.

Family members say C.J. had possibly witnessed a man in an altercation with a woman in the parking lot.

C.J. stepped in and was punched once in the face. The impact caused an artery to burst in his brain.

A 22-year-old woman allegedly killed an aspiring rap singer with a single punch for a $5 party bet.
Tiffany Startz is accused of killing John 'Fatboy' Powell with a single blow to the face and has been told she has to stand trial.
The 25-year-old had agreed to be hit in the face by Starr in return for $5.


Bet: Tiffany Startz, 22, is accused of killing aspiring rap singer John Powell, 25, with a single blow to the face after he agreed to be hit in the face in return for $5
After being struck and collecting his money he walked away to talk with friends, only to collapse minutes later from a burst artery in his neck.

Game: Jimmy Mounts, pictured, had been offering partygoers $5 to take a punch from a female
An autopsy ruled that he had died from a brain haemorrhage caused by blunt force trauma.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1OygEhdC1

Full head thrust targeting is essentially the "Estrella" kingdoms.

An Tir
West
Caid
Atenveldt
Artemisia
Outlands
plus
Lochac

I should add - in my personal opinion (having fought in the East for several years before I moved out here) is that as a SPORT thrusting to the whole head is a superior experience, particularly in melees/wars. In single combat it increases the target area somewhat but doesn't really change the fight too much.

The upside is that if a thrust is hard enough you don't have to ask where on your helmet it landed in order to call it correctly. I would take this further and drop the "lighter to the face" rule altogether (thereby summoning the SEM with a big "NO" gif to the thread)

again, ive never once said that a hard shot to the head may not cause severe injury. as a boxer i know it can. what i asked you for is evidence of a light touch kill. our rules state that blows are considered "good" if it is resonable to suspect they would cause death. not my rules, but the rules that describe acceptable force. i maintain that such a blow or stab requires great force, not mere contact or light taps.

and no i cannot speculate on whether or not i (or anyone) could "kill" someone with a single shot to the head with a metal plank. i can, however, surmise that if i can brown someone out in a superior helm with a vine i could do much more damage with said metal plank against an inferior helm. not to mention all the tales of folk getting knocked out from rattan blows (even though ive never seen anyone ko'd in sca sport combat).

so, show me evidence of a light poke kill. enough folks try arguing that the human skull is a soft vulnerable thing that a light jab would mean certain death or that a tap to the face would do the same. surely there is plenty of evidence of this "truth". i can find plenty of evidence that seemingly devestating pokes and strikes fail to agree with this notion. while somewhat rare enough exist to indicate that the poke/tap crowd is wrong.

logan

Maeryk wrote:

dukelogan wrote:find one. find one example of the human body being so fragile as to suggest that a light tap to the face with a weapon would do anything, much less kill or incapacitate someone. the trick here is that ive never suggested the human body can take everything thrown at it. never said that. what i maintain is that the notion a lot of folks have that suggests light shots to the face or even mere contact thrusts with weapons would end a fight are preposterous. evidence like this proves that the human body is very rugged, now lets see you display the opposite so we have a baseline between the two. show me the guy who died from a tap.

logan

Maeryk wrote:and for every one of these, there's a guy who got punched, fell down, and died. I don't think you can use extraordinary examples to set a baseline.

Ughh.. Find the evidence that one shot in a professionally made helmet with a single handed sword would kill. or that one shot to a maille armored leg would. That's the logical trap. We don't FIGHT to submission or injury.. we fight to a pre-approved standard that is safe for everyone involved.

FORT COLLINS, Colo. – Police said Nathan Engle, 24, died on Monday after he was punched in the face by 24-year-old Terance Dejuan Wilson at about 1:40 a.m. Saturday.
Engle’s uncle was with him when it happened and says there was no confrontation between his nephew and Wilson – his nephew just happened to walk between Wilson and another man. When he did, Wilson turned and delivered a sucker punch to Engle’s face causing him to fall and strike his head on the pavement.

TRABUCO CANYON, Calif. (KABC) -- A man was killed after being punched in the face in a parking lot of an Orange County nightclub early Thanksgiving morning.

Thanksgiving will never be the same for the Hubbard family.

At around 1:40 a.m. Thursday, 27-year-old C.J. Hubbard was leaving Code Restaurant and Lounge in 4200 block of Striker Way in Newport Beach with a friend.

"I got the call that every parent dreads in the middle of the night," said Clint Hubbard, C.J.'s father.

It was the last time his loved ones would see him alive.

"If he saw something that he didn't feel was great, he's the type of guy that would say, 'Hey, this isn't great,' and he might have paid for that," said James Johnson, Hubbard's brother-in-law.

Family members say C.J. had possibly witnessed a man in an altercation with a woman in the parking lot.

C.J. stepped in and was punched once in the face. The impact caused an artery to burst in his brain.

A 22-year-old woman allegedly killed an aspiring rap singer with a single punch for a $5 party bet.
Tiffany Startz is accused of killing John 'Fatboy' Powell with a single blow to the face and has been told she has to stand trial.
The 25-year-old had agreed to be hit in the face by Starr in return for $5.


Bet: Tiffany Startz, 22, is accused of killing aspiring rap singer John Powell, 25, with a single blow to the face after he agreed to be hit in the face in return for $5
After being struck and collecting his money he walked away to talk with friends, only to collapse minutes later from a burst artery in his neck.

Game: Jimmy Mounts, pictured, had been offering partygoers $5 to take a punch from a female
An autopsy ruled that he had died from a brain haemorrhage caused by blunt force trauma.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1OygEhdC1

The problem is that you play a game, not a simulation.

a simulation is, by default, a game. what we do is fight without planning. none of this "so when he does this, you do this". non-choreographed, full speed, full power (except in a few places but they are the vast minority), and with an expectation of a force level that negates touch. signo, what is it that you do? i dont know you so im just curious because your one line comment does not address anything in this thread. so im not sure what, if anything, you are trying to say. i will guess that you dont do sca sport combat and go a step further to say you dont fully understand what it is or what it claims to be (even though what it claims to be is not followe by everyone that participates in it). perhaps you can expand on your comment?

regards
logan

Signo wrote:The problem is that you play a game, not a simulation.

The SCA uses a socially accepted and agreed upon standard for how hard blows need to be. Regional variances will of course occur, especially as it is basically non-quantifiable.

We CAN hit harder, but is it really NECESSARY?

Signo wrote:The problem is that you play a game, not a simulation.

Perhaps you mean "reconstruction"

reconstruction - an interpretation formed by piecing together bits of evidence

Although, considering that we lack clear details prior to the 1300's...perhaps it would be safest to say that it is a "construct"

construct - an idea or theory containing various conceptual elements, typically one considered to be subjective and not based on empirical evidence.

we should hit hard, always, or we need to change the description of our sport combat. taps and touches are simply opposite of every aspect of our combat. as such they muddy the spirit of that combat. i do not understand how someone who will accept a tap or touch could ever call a shot light. if the idea is that a tap to the face would end a fight we should stick to that "tag youre dead" standard. the idea that those shots would end a fight, or are the only safe way to attack the head, is silly.

thats just my opinion.

regards
logan

Diglach mac Cein wrote:The SCA uses a socially accepted and agreed upon standard for how hard blows need to be. Regional variances will of course occur, especially as it is basically non-quantifiable.

We CAN hit harder, but is it really NECESSARY?

The baseline is set at the average level people feel comfortable playing at. You obviously are comfortable playing at the very high end of that pool. Others are comfortable only at the very low end. Neither of you has a right to demand everyone come up, or down, to your respective levels. What we have is a commonly agreed to base level of calibration. It _appears_ after watching your discussions here, over the years, that you disagree with that base level. And a few others agree with you. However, it appears the MAJORITY of the people fighting are happier in the middle, rather than the extremes. As far as I know, you are welcome, with the agreement of your opponent to fight as hard and furious as you want. However, it has to be agreed upon to be substantially above, or below, the commonly accepted force levels.

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Full head thrust targeting is essentially the "Estrella" kingdoms.

An Tir
West
Caid
Atenveldt
Artemisia
Outlands
plus
Lochac

Unless they have changed in just the last few years, I have lived in An TIr and the West and gone to fighter pratice in the Outlands I can say all three of those did not play full helm thrusts.

Vebrand

I don't think we should play to the touch. I don't think face thrusts need to be full power either. And none of us really need to throw as hard as we are capable of - in our game, among friends, it just isn't necessary.

We've all heard, seen or experienced someone with a broken arm, hand, or some such injury from our combat. Sometimes it is someone who zigs when they should have zagged, or an unlucky position, or "shit happens".

A slightly lower force for face thrust gives us a bit more "wiggle room" in this regard, in terms of a neck injury.


.

Peikko wrote:

Signo wrote:The problem is that you play a game, not a simulation.

Perhaps you mean "reconstruction"

reconstruction - an interpretation formed by piecing together bits of evidence

Although, considering that we lack clear details prior to the 1300's...perhaps it would be safest to say that it is a "construct"

construct - an idea or theory containing various conceptual elements, typically one considered to be subjective and not based on empirical evidence.

No, SCA is not a reconstruction, not a simulation of real combat and can be a partial construct.

Why?
Because the game revolre around the idea that you use rattan sticks, pretending that they are swords and cuts delivered over what is supposed to be padding and maille are enough to declare a kill.

What I do is not important mr Logan, the fact I don't play SCA doesn't mean that I don't know what it is, that I've not read the rules and that I don't read about it daily on thid same board.
What I express is just my opinion, and before you jump at my throat, it is not a denigration of what you do... unless you pretend that it is something that it is not.

I wish to elaborate further:
Sometime ago, some of you, in preparation for the battle of nation, tried to fight with rebated. They tried hard because it is known that battle of nation is a full contact event with rebated.
If you go to see the thread you will discover that they chewed their swords very bad.
Now, the question is: Have you ever seen a real sword and compared it with a modern rebated?
If the answer to this question is YES then I can ask you another question:
Do you really think that a REAL sword made with materials and techniques 600 years old (or more) could outperform a modern rebated in term of durability and reliability?
If you honestly think YES then this conversation can stop, if you think NO, then you could reply to my third question:
How can you think they whacked with swords over padding covered with maille opponents, with so much force to harm their target while you doing the same with thick rattan stick can just make bruises? And how they could have achieved that without destroying their swords in few minutes?
Do you really believe that they fought that way, with those weapons against that kind of protections?
I think not.