The Armour Archive

Signo wrote:I wish to elaborate further:
Sometime ago, some of you, in preparation for the battle of nation, tried to fight with rebated. They tried hard because it is known that battle of nation is a full contact event with rebated.
If you go to see the thread you will discover that they chewed their swords very bad.
Now, the question is: Have you ever seen a real sword and compared it with a modern rebated?
If the answer to this question is YES then I can ask you another question:
Do you really think that a REAL sword made with materials and techniques 600 years old (or more) could outperform a modern rebated in term of durability and reliability?
If you honestly think YES then this conversation can stop, if you think NO, then you could reply to my third question:
How can you think they whacked with swords over padding covered with maille opponents, with so much force to harm their target while you doing the same with thick rattan stick can just make bruises? And how they could have achieved that without destroying their swords in few minutes?
Do you really believe that they fought that way, with those weapons against that kind of protections?
I think not.

Signo,
I am one of the experimenters you refer to. I agree with you that swords used the way we used them in our experiment and the way they are used in the battle of the nations would not often kill armoured opponents. Based on my experience in my experiments I had a friend strike me full force across the back using a sharp sword. I was wearing a gambeson and chain. Result = no damage to me or the chain. The sword took slight ding.

Thats why they didn't use them the way we did, except in sporting deeds similar to what we tried. They thrust into gaps in amour or occulars or beat on the joints till they broke and then cleaned their opponents like lobsters. But mostly they used weapons that could easily defeat the armour, such as axes, maces, greatswords, spears and hammers.

We are sword cultists. So were they. They are the mark of the elite, and they are just the thing for killing your peers when you are in your fancy dress up clothes.

Thank you for your comment.

I think the sword is an incredibly effective weapon.. if you contestualize by who it was used and against who it was used. An armored knight with his sword could have easily butchered a lot of paesants with partial armours and polearms or single handed weapons and shields, but when another opponent with equal armour and skill showed up, you'd need a different weapons, or you need to use it differently.
That's all.

Regards

Oh, few years ago here in Italy, two people have been killed after being poked in the eye with an umbrella.
In the first accident the murderer was a woman that killed a girl after an altercation on the metro.
In the second accident the murderer was a old man that killed a young one after al altercation for a little road misunderstanding.
The skull behind the eyesocket is really thin, and behind them a lot of blood vessels are present, an object that push on the bone could easily broke it, and this fracture can lead to an unstoppable bleeding.
With an umbrella.

ive never suggested you couldnt kill someone by jambing something through them. it is the death by mere touch that i want gone in sca sport combat. it exists because some folks think its too dangerous to face thrust someone hard (which we know is untrue) or because they think light taps or gentle thrusts to the face would defeat someone (or kill them as the rules state).

cramming an umbrella deeply enough into any opening.........

regards
logan

Signo wrote:Oh, few years ago here in Italy, two people have been killed after being poked in the eye with an umbrella.
In the first accident the murderer was a woman that killed a girl after an altercation on the metro.
In the second accident the murderer was a old man that killed a young one after al altercation for a little road misunderstanding.
The skull behind the eyesocket is really thin, and behind them a lot of blood vessels are present, an object that push on the bone could easily broke it, and this fracture can lead to an unstoppable bleeding.
With an umbrella.

I understand your feeling, I think than more than the force, one of the thing that is detrimental to the thrusting is the large diameter of the striking surface, this and the fact that it's flat, help the thrust to grip even when it would have slipped or missed completely. I realized it the first time we tried to thrust each other with nylon wasters and fencing masks, the difference between a good thrust and a total miss was very slim and.. slippery. But in your case the issue is more complicated, because other parts of the body are much more at risk than the face from a thrust delivered with too much momentum (deliberately or accidentally).

ive never suggested you couldnt kill someone by jambing something through them. it is the death by mere touch that i want gone in sca sport combat. it exists because some folks think its too dangerous to face thrust someone hard (which we know is untrue) or because they think light taps or gentle thrusts to the face would defeat someone (or kill them as the rules state).

I don't think I've heard anyone around here say "A light thrust would kill you" when talking face thrust, nor say that they advocate a "mere touch" - just that they don't see the need to "pez head" someone. A good, solid "bonk" that moves the head a bit, and give you no question about the intent of the attack is sufficient. That level of power buys us some "buffer" for when a case of "shit happens" occurs, and we don't end up with wrenched necks - which I HAVE seen.


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The problem with this whole discussion is that we refer to "death" when we refer to besting our opponents.

No one dies. No one would probably ever die from 1 blow int he armor that we are supposedly wearing from the weapons that we are supposedly using.

The thrust, touch or not, to the face, is a game concept (albeit I think it should be more than a touch), that shows someone has won at the "game."

I wish everyone would just stop talking about dying and getting killed in SCA combat. It's pretty silly and detrimental to many discussions.

g-

Nor should we try, IMO. Seems rather odd to try to hit someone hard enough to kill in the name of friendship.

I'm working the term "kill" out of my vocabulary, in discussing SCA combat. I say "bested", "beaten" or "defeated".

i agree and although i would have no problems going to full force face thrusts i would rather just deliver, and recieve, a shocking jab. but there are plenty of folks, and some entire regions, that demand mere contact or at most a light touch as good.

regards
logan

Diglach mac Cein wrote:

ive never suggested you couldnt kill someone by jambing something through them. it is the death by mere touch that i want gone in sca sport combat. it exists because some folks think its too dangerous to face thrust someone hard (which we know is untrue) or because they think light taps or gentle thrusts to the face would defeat someone (or kill them as the rules state).

I don't think I've heard anyone around here say "A light thrust would kill you" when talking face thrust, nor say that they advocate a "mere touch" - just that they don't see the need to "pez head" someone. A good, solid "bonk" that moves the head a bit, and give you no question about the intent of the attack is sufficient. That level of power buys us some "buffer" for when a case of "shit happens" occurs, and we don't end up with wrenched necks - which I HAVE seen.


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the wording needs to be changed in corpora. i hate the usage.

regards
logan

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:The problem with this whole discussion is that we refer to "death" when we refer to besting our opponents.

No one dies. No one would probably ever die from 1 blow int he armor that we are supposedly wearing from the weapons that we are supposedly using.

The thrust, touch or not, to the face, is a game concept (albeit I think it should be more than a touch), that shows someone has won at the "game."

I wish everyone would just stop talking about dying and getting killed in SCA combat. It's pretty silly and detrimental to many discussions.

g-

There is a fairly wide variety of calibrations for any type of blow, kingdom to kingdom.

Not something we can quantify in the SCA - which pretty much leads us back to the "local social convention" - which has worked more often than not for 40+ years.


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Diglach mac Cein wrote:There is a fairly wide variety of calibrations for any type of blow, kingdom to kingdom.
Not something we can quantify in the SCA - which pretty much leads us back to the "local social convention" - which has worked more often than not for 40+ years.
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Absolutely, and there is nothing wrong with that. I mean, as long as folks are gracious and play by "local" customs.
Secondarily - your earlier point about safely (re: neck injuries and the like) seems to be overwrought as 1/3rd of the SCA fights like this and has no apparent increase in injury.

But the point about "death" made by Alaric above stands - and really - since this is a soapbox thread already - 'the mail standard' is another culprit. Obviously if there is a real "physical" standard of armor and debilitation then "local social convention" is right out the window. Unless they made mail out of much thinner wire... but really it's a pointless discussion anyway. We essentially fight to submission (in the literal sense - we submit to our opponents, not in the UFA sense of fighting until we cannot continue). I don't really like this term though as it has unwelcome connotations. So, we fight until we agree that one has bested the other. Each blow is like a question. Did you like that one? No? How about this one? How about these 4? How about one in the armpit?

SCA fighting is not a simulation - it's a medievally themed martial sport.

On the injury thing, I think my wife said it best - "Fighter mentality tends to make people not report injuries as readily as other activities."

By the end of Pennsic, you see lots of guys out on the field fighting with various minor to moderate sprains, pulls, etc... and worse. I know I've shrugged off a sore neck for the last 2 days of fighting, and paid for it later. So, I'm not talking life threatening neck fractures here, but wrenches, sprains and the like. Those CAN compound into injuries that would affect our non-SCA activities.

And a full power thrust to the side of the grill can twist you up pretty fast, and is more likely than anything else from a face thrust, injury wise.

I think that a little "safety zone" in that department isn't a bad thing. All it takes is one step for "my bad" to become "Oh shit."


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I wrote a big long screed on this, but decided it wasn't really that enlightening. Suffice to say that it's pretty rare for anyone to fight at both Estrella and Pennsic (I know of 2-3 knights, including myself who do both pretty much every year. There are probably a few more). I cannot remember the last time I saw anyone from Aethelrmark or the Middle Kingdom (or Atlantia for that matter) or several other kingdoms fight at Estrella. The East for the first time fielded more than 5 this year... although one of 'em might have been a Northshielder.

There is a huge difference in "Estrella" chin strapping and "Pennsic" chin strapping, however. At least 3-4 guys from the East who fought at Estrella this year ended up with a cut or "grill bite" on their nose/face from their helmet.

Come find me at pennsic and you can thrust me in the side of the head and see.

right. it is, and always has been, poor equipment being worn by guys who dont mind and inspected by those who dont know. not, at all, by the actions of stout blows. my helm weighs 18 lbs and is fitted to my head and has a solid means of securing it to said melon. you can hit it, at any angle, in any way, as hard as you want. i will be fine. we continue to pass any bucket on any persons head without second thought then claim that stout blows to it are dangerous? so many helms, if inspected properly, would fail but those inspections are simply not done.

regards
logan

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:I wrote a big long screed on this, but decided it wasn't really that enlightening. Suffice to say that it's pretty rare for anyone to fight at both Estrella and Pennsic (I know of 2-3 knights, including myself who do both pretty much every year. There are probably a few more). I cannot remember the last time I saw anyone from Aethelrmark or the Middle Kingdom (or Atlantia for that matter) or several other kingdoms fight at Estrella. The East for the first time fielded more than 5 this year... although one of 'em might have been a Northshielder.

There is a huge difference in "Estrella" chin strapping and "Pennsic" chin strapping, however. At least 3-4 guys from the East who fought at Estrella this year ended up with a cut or "grill bite" on their nose/face from their helmet.

Come find me at pennsic and you can thrust me in the side of the head and see.