The Armour Archive

Ken, thank you for the ivitation. I just saw a you tube clip a couple of days ago, showing some Viking style training work at the pell , catching spears and with padded target gloves, etc. It looked rather interesting.
I would like to find out more of what you describe.
When and if that may be possible, will have to be answered some time in the future.

Till then,

Good luck with your efforts.

Henrik

Could we sticky this one please? OR add another forum for "legendary/extremely informative posts"?

Personally, as I've gotten on in years, SCA wise, I'm been focusing on how we (the SCA) can improve the tournament and melee combat experience for folks (and in turn, myself).

This includes improving the look of folks on the field, but also trying to bring back some pagentry, some of the "show" back into tounraments - IMO they NEED to be more than just a "sporting event". Banners, heralds, etc. We've sacrificed a lot of "atmosphere" to cram in a few extra fights.

For melees, I hope to help bring some pagentry to the field, but also encourage more FUN. The Castle fronts at Gulf Wars Pennsic a great addition. Years ago, the Abbey Battle at Pennsic was different and fun. So are the COTT, The Crusader Battles and the other events - both to watch and participate in. It is much better than the "Field/bridge/woods" routine.

Still would love to see the Midrealm and the East ALLY against Atlantia and Aethelmarch for a couple of Pennsics....

In becoming more "competitive" or a more "legitimate" sport, we've given up some things.

Would you agree?
.

Don't use round sticks for swords and you get-

1. A sword that hardly bounces off of anything, because the blade is cut from fatter rattan.

2. A sword that reveals every flat blow you land with glaring clarity.

People think that flat-sided rattan swords will always be heavier- not true. I make my swords heavier because it makes my arm travel through the air alot slower, which has cut down on my shoulder pain an amazing amount.

You can take a stick that is about 1 3/4" in width, carve the sides down flat and end up with a sword that weighs the exact same as the 1 1/2" round stick you are using now. It takes about an hour longer to make a sword, unless you put on a dust mask and start grinding away the sides on a belt sander. Then it only takes about five minutes longer.

Round sticks suck.

Henrik of Havn wrote:I have to say, however, I've seen some video footage of someone using a sharp steel sword to cut pig carcases with and he used wrap blows which cut rather well and deep. But this was on unprotected or unarmored meat. So those results would still not proove the blows to be useful for real combat with a live armored person.

Henrik

Some years ago some friends had an old helmet out to beat up on a pell with dulled, but sharply pointed swords. My husband is a KSCA lefty with a very hard wrap shot. He also many years of rebated steel experience so is very conscious of being edge on. His wrap did dent the helmet to a degree the wearer would probably have been severely stunned.

Interestingly the tip shots that many SCA folks do not take did the most helmet damage. They worked like can openers.

SCA fighters do throw shots all the time that are either flat or at an off angle. If Marshalling, both of us will call flats if we see them.

-J

I no longer use round sticks for swords, and am moving my squires to follow suit. It makes an AMAZING difference.

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:Don't use round sticks for swords and you get-

1. A sword that hardly bounces off of anything, because the blade is cut from fatter rattan.

2. A sword that reveals every flat blow you land with glaring clarity.

People think that flat-sided rattan swords will always be heavier- not true. I make my swords heavier because it makes my arm travel through the air alot slower, which has cut down on my shoulder pain an amazing amount.

You can take a stick that is about 1 3/4" in width, carve the sides down flat and end up with a sword that weighs the exact same as the 1 1/2" round stick you are using now. It takes about an hour longer to make a sword, unless you put on a dust mask and start grinding away the sides on a belt sander. Then it only takes about five minutes longer.

Round sticks suck.

FrauHirsch1 wrote:

Henrik of Havn wrote:I have to say, however, I've seen some video footage of someone using a sharp steel sword to cut pig carcases with and he used wrap blows which cut rather well and deep. But this was on unprotected or unarmored meat. So those results would still not proove the blows to be useful for real combat with a live armored person.

Henrik

Some years ago some friends had an old helmet out to beat up on a pell with dulled, but sharply pointed swords. My husband is a KSCA lefty with a very hard wrap shot. He also many years of rebated steel experience so is very conscious of being edge on. His wrap did dent the helmet to a degree the wearer would probably have been severely stunned.

Interestingly the tip shots that many SCA folks do not take did the most helmet damage. They worked like can openers.

SCA fighters do throw shots all the time that are either flat or at an off angle. If Marshalling, both of us will call flats if we see them.

-J

...and I bet they just love it when you do that

I was very active during the time when "light archers" were banned in the early 80s in Caid. Several incidents led up to this:

1) Duke Heinrich der Jaeger? of Atenveldt was shot in the armpit with a field tip that had punched through a bird blunt at a Burrow Creek War.
2) At that same war, Theoderic (now Sir) had a broken wooden arrow punch through the light screen mesh and poke into his skin about 1/2" deep just below his eye socket.
3) At a Santa Barbara war (not so lovingly referred to as the Cow Maneuvers), the mornings armored fighting was followed by shinai/archery battles. The Abbey's camp was on the way to the field, so the Abbey marshals started checking arrows because one found an arrow with a field tip on the battlefield earlier. We found about 20 field tipped arrows - not even covered by bird blunts. Even after a "big deal" was made about this, one of the fighters was shot at by an archer shooting field tips the next day. We all watched in horror as we all tried to get the archer's attention while the fighter kept ducking. It was terrifying.
4) Over a period of several wars, people found arrows with field tips poking through bird blunts on the field.
5) People started getting expensive helmets that were difficult to put the mesh around. Barrel helms were easy, but the complicated ones were not. People started getting annoyed that they spent all the money to get a period looking helmet only to be made ugly with screen and duct tape. It was a lot of work by many for the pleasure of a few.
6) There were a lot of problems with archers not yeilding when the fighters got within the 10' required to 'kill' them. It had changed by then so they could not "tap" them or touch them in any way. Several light archers were accidentally hit as well. There were a number of conversations overheard where archers were pretty derogatory towards the armored fighters.
7) No one could figure out a way to unequivocably prove there was no metal tip under the bird blunts. We tried stud finders, but they did not work consistantly with all the types of field tips.
8) At the time, the archery community was not taking responsibility for their own activities. It was extra work for the regular marshals.

A petition was made signed by most of the fighting community. The complaints were found to be valid by the Powers that Be at the time. Several years later, archery was started back experimentally using alternate types of arrows with armored archers, and it has grown to what it is today.

I can't speak for the events in any other region, but this is what happened in Caid to my recollection. It was mostly a safety issue which has been addressed.

-J

I have been telling people for years and years that tip shots split mail open quite easily.

The tip is best for slashing, the blade is best for hacking. Of course a tip shot that snags and splits maille may not be deep enough to cause a substantial fight ending wound. A hack will cause some percussive damage but is very unlikely to cut through maille.

If maille was crappy armor they wouldn't have worn it as defense against bladed weapons for thousands of years.

From rebated experience, maille seems to wrap itself around a blade as it hits, causing friction and slowing it down significantly. However, just like rattan, mass weapons can hurt you big time.

Anyway, after these tests, that majeski-bible two handed can opener looking bladed weapon really makes sense.

Founders-
Do you have any early film footage of SCA combat that could possibly be convereted to digital files?
-Vitus

Henrik of Havn wrote:Leo,
I first became aware of the importance of blade presentation in the nid 1980's when I organised a cutting contest at a local tournament. I thought up the idea of using 2 liter soda bottles filled with water and capped, which were hung from an overhead support, as cutting targets, for sharp bladed weapons of each contestant's choice.

The first contestant walked up to his target and swung his crescent moon shaped axe blade , with a 10 inch long razor sharp cutting edge, set on a 15 inch or so, long handle, at the target bottle. It sliced cleanly through the bottle and I thought, wow, this is easier than I had thought. How will I ever find a winner out of the dozen or so contestants waiting their turn? I probably won't have enough bottles for any run off cutting, needed to find a final winner.

Then the next contestant tried his blade - a European style sword. He failed to cut cleanly through his bottle. As did the next and the next and the next till everyone else had failed.

In each failure one of several things happened. In the best cases the cut went part way through but wasn't a clean and complete cut, as the first cut with the axe had been. In other cases the cut missed the bottle completely. In the worser cases the sword ws damaged, either due to bad quality construction or bad blade presentation.

One sword broke the tang so the pommel fell off. Another broke the blade in two and three bent sideways and developed permmanent sets, all due to bad presentation. Of these three, two of the swords were Del Tin blades and the third was made by some other maker.
Of the swords that were not damaged, they were mostly european style broadswords amd onmlu one was a Japanese Katana. It nearly cut through the target, but barely missed cutting the last half inch or so of the bottle, due to a slight error in range by it's wielder.

What became clear with this experience was that to cut successfully, the cutting edge needed to be nearly perpendicular at the point of contact and that any rotation of the plane of the blade needed to correspond to that same surface contact so the cutting forces wouldn't cause the blade to flex laterally. Otherwise the blade would bend sideways and be bent permanently or pssibly be broken off.
And this was only caused by a thin layer of plastic. If that is the case, then immagine how much more resistance a similar or thicker layer of steel would offer to being cut through by the same sword blow. Cloth, padding or heavy leather may offer a different result, but in any case the presentation of the blade is vital to how deeply and well it would impact and cut a target surface.

SCA combat technique usually doesn't pay much attention to precise blade presentation, but rather relies on impact shock and it's effect on the target surface it strikes, and minimally on rough ( + or - 3/4 of an inch - the width of a strip of electrical or other tape, down the length of the blade, deliniating the "cutting edge") presentation, if that is even decernable by one or the other party delivering or receiving a blade strike. For wrap around strikes ( a very popular form) where the recipiant can't see how the blade presents when it strikes and the wielder often can't either because the recipiant's body blocks the wielder's view of the blade as it strikes, this is even less possible for the combatants to decide if the blow in question is valid or not. Using "feel" to decide, is rather meaningless if the blade is round, as so many are, since a bad blow will feel no different than a "good" blow. If the blade is oval or flat and wide , then it can better indicate if the blow is good or bad. But even so it still can be much less accurate than a real thin blade would indicate.

I have to say, however, I've seen some video footage of someone using a sharp steel sword to cut pig carcases with and he used wrap blows which cut rather well and deep. But this was on unprotected or unarmored meat. So those results would still not proove the blows to be useful for real combat with a live armored person.

Henrik


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I do have to say I am very glad to see that both of these highly esteemed elders have a keen awarness of the ideal of the bladed edge and its effects on the use of them. This is something that I have argued about since I joined the SCA.

I agree with the sentiments on the cutting and how edge angle needs to be correct in order to use the sword as an effective weapon. When I found the SCA, I had already been a full-contact jouster and stage combatant for several years, and had taken two classes on swordplay. I had also studied armor, and the effectiveness of it and its development through history. Problem was I wanted to play with edged wasters and not rattan at first, but did decide when I fully joined the SCA the "when in Rome" theory. However, I do tend to be a martial purist, and one who studies all the aspects of the combats. To me, this isn't fun, combat and combat theory is an obsession. I have to say, I wish that a lot of what you speak of in terms of importance of blade orientation and proper dynamics and angle were as important today as you held them in the past. I, for one, have in the past few years spoken out about the armor standard used in both rapier and armored SCA combat. I've done cut tests, armor tests and used years of experience outside the SCAin armored steel combat to point out why we in the SCA should change the wording of the armor standard used for SCA combats. This has only gotten worse (my obsession) with the study of outside historical references and manuals and the practice of both historical study and practical cutting tests.
I do have to say, I wish that the new C&T would be split off into it's own "division" and allow for armored and non-armored rules sets. I know also that because this is not/will not happen any time in the near future I find myself being drawn outside the SCA to find these activities. As a peer and almost 20 year member of the society I find myself wondering why the SCA isn't receptive to such activities. Then I read a thread about combat archery, or how rapier is wrecking the main game and feel like there will be too long a wait for armored C&T.

Perhaps we should ask why rattan was what became the standard for our combat and why steel was expressly forbidden on our fields. This was determined by people in the earliest of days who were enthusiasts of steel weaponry and had been exposed to formal training with steel weaponry. I'm guessing they had a good reason for it.

Johnathan,

I fear you ascribe too much importance to decisions that were made in the formation of the SCA. I can't think of any that weren't either pragmatic or self serving in some way- or both . In the matter of chosing rattan to make sword blades from, it was tried about a year or two after we had been using first wood to make blades from. The wood that was tried included: a) 1/2 inch plywood which broke after a couple of blows to either shield rims or other wooden weapons or steel helmet tops, b) oak lath about 1/4 inch thick by 1 to 2 inches wide, which also broke over shield rims or other wooden weapons of greater cross sectional strength - like mace hafts as well as steel helmet tops c) oak boards that were 3/4 inches thick which were blade shaped with either no edge padding or in my case had a 1/2 inch thick by 3/4 inch wide black rubber edge padding attached with contact cement, on the blade edge - these were typically wielded at half speed so contact with an opponant's body could be reduced to mostly non destructive levels, though a broken thumb was caused by such a short sword blow at the first Tournament. Multilayered Cloth wrapped maces, were the only weapons that failed to break easily and became quickly popular. Experiments with flails and axes insued, but they failed to gain general approval and the flails proved too successful and were banned.

The next blade material that we tried was flattened aluminum tubing. It was cheap , common in any hardwear store and easy enough for unskilled , nearly toolless people to still make swords from. Instead of breaking they tended to bend sideways . Then we had to bend them the other way and straighten them out , in order to continue fighting, which we did by stepping on the blade and bending it as needed. At the time we didn't understand the issue was caused by bad blade presentation at time of impact and so thought the material was bad instead and abandoned it as a resource. The aluminum blades also hurt when they hit an unarmored hand or unpadded body part, since nearly no one had any armor except fencing masks and simple leather gloves. As you can immagine we quickly thought it necessary to find alternate materials.


Finally Fulk ( Ken ) and Sigfried ( Dave) tried making swords out of 2 and 1/2 inch diameter rattan. It was easy to shape into oval crossection blades which proved tough enough to not break in combat and were lighter in weight than similar sized oak wood blades, while being wide enough to hurt less when striking unarmored bodies.

Although this rattan was available in only one store in Berkeley, it was 12 feet long and cost $3 per length. This alowed several broadswords or great swords or short swords to be made from one piece, at little cost per sword, so it quickly became the material of choice and utimately to the exclusion of all others.

The reason steel blades were not tried was simply because : a) the idea of using steel was scary ( since we didn't know how it could be used less dangerously) , b) we didn't have any armor to protect ourselves from it, just fencing masks and leather gloves, c) no one made steel swords of any kind and so they were not available to buy and no SCA member knew how to make one nor did anyone have any tools to do so anyway. Please understand, the first armor we did get were my steel spangen helm followed by steel sheet metal great hellms. These were all made by the use of the simlpest of tools and with little manufacturing knowledge. I used a ball pien hammer, a 2 foot piece of railroad track and a borrowed electric drill to shape and rivit together my four plate spangen helm. Robert of Dunharrow used the borrowed facilities of a local sheet metal shop ( beverly shears, rollers, drillpress and anvil ) on weekends, to cut out and rivit together barrel helms that Fulk and he designed. Several of these were made and they got shared among many of the fighters while others still wore fencing masks. Only Master Beverly ( the first laurel) had the knowledge and tools to later make Sigfried's four plate, banded spangenhelm, with detachable ( when fighting) aluminum wings.

Several years later when the SCA incorporated and wrote the first Rules of the lists, we had already had several acctdental injuries which affected the language chosen for them. The ban on thrusting with broadswords was a direct result of my being struck on the eyebrow by an unpadded oak boken tip which was thrust between the bars of the baseball catchers mask that I wore during combat to protect my face at the time. This was before rattran was the exclusive sword material being used in combat.
The tip struck a bar on the mask which deflected up into my eyebrow instead of down into my eye socket. The blood which immediately began streeming down my face, scared my opponant since
he thought he had destroyed my eye. I thought it was simply sweat and was ready to fight on. Aftyerward I went to get stitches to close the skin tear. I was very lucky it wasn't worse. The size requirement of eye openings on face protection was also influenced by this incident. The minimum size of sword tips was too, and this prevented slim metal blades from being used, even though thrusting was not permitted except for any except short swords. Would anyone want a steel blunt sword to be used with today's armor requirements? Probably some changes would have to be made forst, either for target areas or for armor gaps or both.

The only steel weapons exposure I had had in the 1960s was a year of learning foil fencing. The exposure that Dave and Ken had was perhaps with foils, the modern form of fencing sabre( about as light weight as a foil )and epee ( perhaps half again as heavy as a foil) and maybe an occasional observation of schlager use but likely not any use of one.

No one else had any more experience with steel blades, if even any at all. The modern versions of blades that are seen among rapier enthusioasts or Adrian Empire practitioners were never available to any of us back then, and neither was any armor, beyond what I've already spoken about. So none of us were able to consider any form of steel blades as anythihg that a bunch of would be sword fighters could obtain and use safely.

Today, of course it's a different matter and some Eastern European reenactors, I'm told, do so with blunt steel swords in combat that is very similar to SCA combat, with similar force and target areas. And I understand they get injured severely sometimes, and if done in the USA would likely result in expensive law suits that none of us are likely to care to be subject to or could afford.

Henrik

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Perhaps we should ask why rattan was what became the standard for our combat and why steel was expressly forbidden on our fields. This was determined by people in the earliest of days who were enthusiasts of steel weaponry and had been exposed to formal training with steel weaponry. I'm guessing they had a good reason for it.

Leo,

Keep in mind my personal level of awareness and interest is far from what many others in the SCA have, and it is mostly something I gained over the years after I became a member. My dislike of wrap sots, for instance came only after understanding how important blade presentation can be. I wonder if any of the fight manuals teach wrap shots? If they were valid I would think some should at least mention the technique.

When the SCA began we numbered in the few dozen. Today new groups start with similar numbers. I think the reason people try to get new ideas to be accepted in the SCA is because it has so many menbers that in themselves offer many advantages over starting a new group by itself outside the SCA. Simply put the numbers allow lots of events scattered all over the country as well as annual or more frequent large scale events . If you are with a small group it's not as fun since the numbers are lacking ( remember our early wars with two armies of six people each?) and you have to work harder to hold many events since there is no one to share in costs and effort.

I'm unfamiliar with C&T in the SCA. But I think we had our own comparable sorts of issues back in 1966. I had ten frustrating years trying to get Wars popular here in the West Kingdom. And then when they finally did, it wasn't here, but down in Burro Creek in Atenveldt nearly 800 miles away. So don't be discouraged if no one here wants to let you do your thing. Either do what we did and grow your own group or else be patient till the SCA decides you way some time in the future.

I'm active in the Vikings, both here in North America and in England, as well as the SCA.
I just do what I like and do it where I can find a place that accepts it, even if I have to wait a lifetime to find it.

Henrik

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However, I do tend to be a martial purist, and one who studies all the aspects of the combats. To me, this isn't fun, combat and combat theory is an obsession. I have to say, I wish that a lot of what you speak of in terms of importance of blade orientation and proper dynamics and angle were as important today as you held them in the past. I, for one, have in the past few years spoken out about the armor standard used in both rapier and armored SCA combat. I've done cut tests, armor tests and used years of experience outside the SCAin armored steel combat to point out why we in the SCA should change the wording of the armor standard used for SCA combats. This has only gotten worse (my obsession) with the study of outside historical references and manuals and the practice of both historical study and practical cutting tests.
I do have to say, I wish that the new C&T would be split off into it's own "division" and allow for armored and non-armored rules sets. I know also that because this is not/will not happen any time in the near future I find myself being drawn outside the SCA to find these activities. As a peer and almost 20 year member of the society I find myself wondering why the SCA isn't receptive to such activities. Then I read a thread about combat archery, or how rapier is wrecking the main game and feel like there will be too long a wait for armored C&T.

_________________

FrauHirsch1 wrote:I can't speak for the events in any other region, but this is what happened in Caid to my recollection. It was mostly a safety issue which has been addressed.-J

I'd love to keep this diversion going, but, the original topic is too important to derail.
Another day, for sure.
Ranif

Vitue,

I do have some from 1966 amd after and I'm working on doing that and hope to make it available in the future. However it really isn't particularly useful. The exposure is mostly bad, the action is mostly unremarkable and not likely to be any different than just anybody who has no combat experience trying to fight with sword and shield. We didn't know what we were doing at first and just invented our methods. I think it wasn't till we began visiting other groups and fighting with them that new growth appeared. So if you can get films from the mid to late 1970's you are likely to find more useful material than from the first years.

I do have a master tape of my flim of Pennsic War from 1976. I sold VHS copies of it back at the SCA's 20 year celebration ( TYC) in Texas. Someone here, may have seen it. It's about 30 minutes long , in color, shot originally on 16 mm film. I could look into making DVD copies for sale if there is sufficient interest to cover setup and copying costs. It shows a lot of fighting including a little of Duke Paul of Bellatrix, Duke Andrew of Riga, Duke William of Houghton, Duke Frederick of Holland, myself and a host of early East Kingdsom and Middle Kingdom fighters ( Such as Duke Dagan, Duke Finvar De Tahe and others).

Henrik

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Do you have any early film footage of SCA combat that could possibly be convereted to digital files?
-Vitus

Frau Hirsch,

I think most of the issues you list are more of personality and conduict issues than they are of format and equipment issues.

My near miss eye injury that I mentioned in my earlier reply, was not caused by the weapon but by inadequate armor. I recognised that fact and immediately welded on more metal to cover my eyes, to reduce the danger of a potential repeat with worse consequences. The weapon didn't need to get banned . Just because there was no requirement for me to take extra measures to protect myself didn't mean I shouldn't be prudent and do so. Playing the system to just barely get by the rules requirements, is potentially dangerous as well as disrespectful and I don't believe in it, especially since it tends to take away someone else's fun.

Of course metal tipped arrews should not be allowed in combat. But ensuring that they aren't is a matter of both informing all participants adequately and then ensuring more than adequate inspection. [The blunts we used at the non SCA Hastings reenactments, were used on plain uncovered wooden arrow shafts and were of a special heavy duty design, which is commercially available from several manufacturers. Even then, no metal tips were allowed. One type of these heavy duty blunts is called "Red Heads" . They seem to have double the thickness of regular rubber blunts so they have less failures due to long use and wearing out. By the way , at Hastings (In England) they didn't permit any nonperiod ( such as face bar grills or occular masking ) nor modern eye protection ( such as glasses of any kind), but neither did they permit anyone shooting at anyone while aiming above their waist, unless it was at a high angle so the arrows fell vertically and could only hit helmet tops as they fell down to earth. Everyone was required to wear helmets or hard leather head caps, with very very few exceptions being allowed, there.]

The disrespect you describe is not particularly honorable and I've heard similar disrespect come from some belted fighters, aimed at archers, which I find equally lacking in honor. Everyone responsible for such conduct should stop doing it and behave in an acceptable fashion. No one should be forced to do something they don't want, but neither should anyone "hog" all the available opportunity and require something not be permitted, just because they don't like it. We live in a world where courteous give and take should be the only requirement and people should obey this all the time, or else they should leave.
Safety should of course take presidence, but efforts to reduce any danger of unsafe conditions to reasonably acceptable levels, should be taken at all opportunites. Just because some people think something is dangerous, doesn't make it so. By such a standard everything is dangerous and getting out of bed is too. Should that be the only criterion for taking any action? I don't think so.

Choices that people make have consequences. Either accept them or make different choices.

That's how I see it.

Henrik

Your Grace,
I just want to say thank you for the insight into how early SCA combat evolved.

Diglach,

I miss some of the old pagentry , too. More would be good sometimes. Better look ing kit would be too. I think leading by example is a good technique. Then no one feels unduely pressured to change. Make change desirable and others will follow.

Henrik

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This includes improving the look of folks on the field, but also trying to bring back some pagentry, some of the "show" back into tounraments - IMO they NEED to be more than just a "sporting event". Banners, heralds, etc. We've sacrificed a lot of "atmosphere" to cram in a few extra fights.

For melees, I hope to help bring some pagentry to the field, but also encourage more FUN. The Castle fronts at Gulf Wars Pennsic a great addition. Years ago, the Abbey Battle at Pennsic was different and fun. So are the COTT, The Crusader Battles and the other events - both to watch and participate in. It is much better than the "Field/bridge/woods" routine.

Still would love to see the Midrealm and the East ALLY against Atlantia and Aethelmarch for a couple of Pennsics....

In becoming more "competitive" or a more "legitimate" sport, we've given up some things.

A question for Their Graces:

Why were women banned from fighting in the early years of the SCA?

Henrik of Havn wrote:Finally Fulk ( Ken ) and Sigfried ( Dave) tried making swords out of 2 and 1/2 inch diameter rattan. It was easy to shape into oval crossection blades which proved tough enough to not break in combat and were lighter in weight than similar sized oak wood blades, while being wide enough to hurt less when striking unarmored bodies.

Henrik of Havn wrote:Safety should of course take presidence, but efforts to reduce any danger of unsafe conditions to reasonably acceptable levels, should be taken at all opportunites. Just because some people think something is dangerous, doesn't make it so. By such a standard everything is dangerous and getting out of bed is too. Should that be the only criterion for taking any action? I don't think so.

Choices that people make have consequences. Either accept them or make different choices.

That's how I see it.

Henrik

Have no fear Henrik, since last we corresponded, our efforts in Atenveldt have resulted in arrows that are reasonably safer for the combatants and spectators and we do not allow thin shafted ammo. Due to my personal feelings on it I still avoid participation against CA.

With all do respect founders...

What were you guys smoking?

Injuries changed the shape of our rattan weapons. Round stock and less shaped rattan resulted in less injuries. Ovals are still OK.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:In becoming more "competitive" or a more "legitimate" sport, we've given up some things.

Would you agree?

Yes, I would.

My Lady Wife once remarked with dismay at the calls from some quarters for other activities or entertainment during the tournament. "The tournament IS the entertainment!" Yes, but with the shedding of much of the pageantry, it's become less entertaining. I fully agree that it's the pageantry and the "inner concept" that distinguishes our tournaments from a purely sporting event. We can recover that, if we have a mind to do so. But it seems that a lot of the younger fighters seem to be classic "stick jocks," who want to fight and that's all.

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:

Diglach mac Cein wrote:In becoming more "competitive" or a more "legitimate" sport, we've given up some things.

Would you agree?

Yes, I would.

My Lady Wife once remarked with dismay at the calls from some quarters for other activities or entertainment during the tournament. "The tournament IS the entertainment!" Yes, but with the shedding of much of the pageantry, it's become less entertaining. I fully agree that it's the pageantry and the "inner concept" that distinguishes our tournaments from a purely sporting event. We can recover that, if we have a mind to do so. But it seems that a lot of the younger fighters seem to be classic "stick jocks," who want to fight and that's all.

I think it is more that many things are being crammed into a single event so to save time we see things like bear pits or intros and salutes cut from tourneys to speed them up so they will be over quickly. Younger fighters all seem to go through a stick jock phase, but if there is no where to practice good tourney etiquette because it is a bear pit then many may stay stick jocks longer.

Balin

I can remember when every round of a tourney was routinely announced by a herald, with introductions and honours throughout. (Then again, I joined the SCA in AS VIII.)
Now, we do well if the Litany of Honours is done even in the first round, and as a herald, I've had some fighters grouse at me for doing even that. Even in a bear-pit, the Litany of Honours can be done at the opening.

About the only tourneys in Atlantia that are "fully heralded" are Crowns, and even they use the "short form" of the LoH in all rounds but the first and then at the semis, usually.

I applaud the institution of "practice tourneys" such as the Crapaud Tourney in the West and the recently established Tourney of the Cross and Lily in Atlantia, where in addition to fighting a full-on tourney, attention is given to the forms and courtesies.

Michael of Exton wrote:Your Grace,
I just want to say thank you for the insight into how early SCA combat evolved.

I agree! Thank you your Graces!

This has been interesting.

-Aaron

Guys and gals,

We asked the founders. They have answered. I think the debate on other issues can go off to other threads. What they said they did, they did, regardless of our views for or against.

With thanks,

-Aaron

A question for Their Graces:

Why were women banned from fighting in the early years of the SCA?

I wasn't there at the beginning, but I was active when women started to fight - sometime in the early/mid '70s, I think. As I recall, Sir Trudy Lacklandia was the first woman on the field.

My impression, which may be mistaken, was that the objection was the romantic attitude that "of course women don't fight; we (men) are fighting for them."

At least at the time when this changed, there was not universal agreement on this. Eventually, the modern egalitarian attitudes won the day. This was difficult for a number of male fighters, who could not easily get past the cultural dictum of never hitting a woman. As far as I remember, all of these people eventually accepted the idea.

Personally, I was a proponent of women fighting, and provided training for many of the early women fighters in the West. It is still a particular interest of mine to provide good training and advice to women fighters.

Regards

I want to thank ya'll too....and now after seeing the "history of the sca" on the West Kingdom page, got some interesting reading to do.

I went and read through the first couple of years already and there is an interesting little bit about a woman that went out to fight and was complaining about getting hit to hard, and it set women back fighting a few years.

Anyhow I think the looks of people's kits is steadily improving with time. Even in the time I've been participating, which is almost a decade now I think, I have noticed a lot of improvement at least in Atenveldt. I blame the internet.

Isabella E wrote:I went and read through the first couple of years already and there is an interesting little bit about a woman that went out to fight and was complaining about getting hit to hard, and it set women back fighting a few years.

Anyhow I think the looks of people's kits is steadily improving with time. Even in the time I've been participating, which is almost a decade now I think, I have noticed a lot of improvement at least in Atenveldt. I blame the internet.

I did the same thing, and noticed the same trends with kits. Ironically enough, pics from the first year had people better dressed than some I've seen VERY recently.

And there was wrastlin' too! Did ja see that?!?