The Armour Archive

Face thrusts are lame. Therefore, this shouldn't even be an issue right?

I dunno I find it hilarious when someone stabs me in the face, or I get a good face stab off. Maybe that's just me though. Again, the idea of stabbing someone in the face is sorta funny to me...not sure why. Hey has anyone seen my meds?

Nissan Maxima wrote:I thrust into their baskethilt which then smashes them in the face. Funny stuff.

This just kept circling in my head as a primo solution. After all, if I can hit the WEAPON as hard as I like...

A lot of people who stick their hilt in front of the face hang the arm. Hit that. Heck, pop the forearm with a spear shot and the hilt goes into their face ANYWAY. Now granted, about 75% of the time I have to remind them the arm is a good target for a spear, or hit them multiple times before they take it.

Or I'll hook the baskethilt, or the sword right above the hilt, and when they yank back they'll pull the point right into their own grill.



.

I find it cheesy and against the spirit of the game that no one ever bothers to block below the knee. Talk about taking advantage of the letter of rules...

(now removing tongue from cheek)

Hands, like knees, are "off target" because they are delicate, basket hilts are not delicate.

Personally I don't use my basket to block, the basket hilt isn't period so I pretend it doesn't exist. However that's a personal choice and I could care less what other people do with theirs.

Huh, guess I always considered a persons basket to be an extension of their gauntlets and not part of the sword so I avoided hitting them in the same way I would avoid hitting someone in the hands or below the knee.

It seems silly to treat a demi and basket as legally different from a hilt and gauntlet especially when it gives advantage to anachronisms over historical gear but rules are rules and it doesn't really effect my experience much anyways.

Since it is clearly a legal move I'll just have to learn how to use it to my advantage. Maybe it's time to learn the spear to discourage its use in such a manner .

Nissan Maxima wrote:I thrust into their baskethilt which then smashes them in the face. Funny stuff.

As it should be!

This, along with hooking, arm targeting, and generally being sneaky by looking one way and throwing the other, I can handle that. It's what makes being a shieldman in melee fun But leaving my head open on a shield wall to be more "honorable?" No, I don't think so. I'll continue watching the world through my basket while I prepare my screaming suicidal charge.

Yann de Kerhouarn wrote:It seems silly to treat a demi and basket as legally different from a hilt and gauntlet especially when it gives advantage to anachronisms over historical gear ....

Perfectly historical for us 16th c. types.

I do it. But I also use cheesy thrust too and like combat archery.

Alex Baird wrote:

Yann de Kerhouarn wrote:It seems silly to treat a demi and basket as legally different from a hilt and gauntlet especially when it gives advantage to anachronisms over historical gear ....

Perfectly historical for us 16th c. types.

It still seems inconsistent to treat them differently when we have an assumed armour standard for everything else.

Do you use a basket on you sword that is historically accurate for you persona?

Count Johnathan was right from the get go.

I don't think it's chessy or against the spirit of the SCA and I do it because we allow one-shot kills. I can go back 25+ years and it was standard teaching for two-sword fighters to block with their baskets, so hard to say it's against the spirit of the SCA as since decent basket hilts have been made people have been blocking with them. I think it's against the spirit of those who have came out in the last 15 years or so and wanting to wear the full gauntlets and be more period.

What I find funny is you here someone says you shouldn't block with a basket then that same person picks up a great sword and blocks over and over with their gauntlets claiming they are trying to block with the weapon. I can't tell you over the years how many arms shots I have thrown at great weapons fighters to see it deflected by and blocked by gauntlets and never once did anyone call target substitution.

Vebrand
Have pot will stir

Use finger gauntlets and you won't block with your hands.

Of course, the above was said for comedic effect, but it's basically true. I used to lose an arm every time I blocked with my hand...people kept acting like I was overdoing it so I stopped.

Vebrand wrote:Count Johnathan was right from the get go.

I don't think it's chessy or against the spirit of the SCA and I do it because we allow one-shot kills. I can go back 25+ years and it was standard teaching for two-sword fighters to block with their baskets, so hard to say it's against the spirit of the SCA as since decent basket hilts have been made people have been blocking with them. I think it's against the spirit of those who have came out in the last 15 years or so and wanting to wear the full gauntlets and be more period.

What I find funny is you here someone says you shouldn't block with a basket then that same person picks up a great sword and blocks over and over with their gauntlets claiming they are trying to block with the weapon. I can't tell you over the years how many arms shots I have thrown at great weapons fighters to see it deflected by and blocked by gauntlets and never once did anyone call target substitution.

Vebrand
Have pot will stir

wellll... More than thirty years ago I got baskets for my swords, and it gave me back my thumbs At that time, I would, routinely, block thrusts square on my basket hilts. I treated them as bucklers, effectively.

Since then, my perceptions of what is and is not "right" have changed in a number of ways. I'm not fanatically opposed to fighting with steel as inherently and inevitably unsafe, and I try not to block with my baskets because doing so is purely a construct of our modern rules and not a valid part of fighting with a cruciform sword.

So, perceptions evolve. So do our rules.

Alex Baird wrote:Perfectly historical for us 16th c. types.

Yep. My basket hilt is modeled after one that came off the Mary Rose.

Pic?

I'm finding this:


But that is from VA, and probably later (Jamestown?).

and this:
http://www.maryrose.org/ship/hand2.htm



The sword, which measures 105cm in length, was recovered in September 1982, just one month before the momentous lifting of the hull of the Mary Rose. The sword had fallen through a gun port as the ship sank and then was buried beneath the hull as it settled into the seabed.



Although the sword has never been on display before, photographs and drawings of it have excited military historians worldwide. Guy Wilson, ex Master of the Royal Armouries, has written of the sword “It is one of a very important type that may be called the first British Military pattern sword as it appears to have been used extensively by the elite troops and personal guard of King Henry VIII.”



Of the many thousands of Tudor artefacts retrieved from the wreck, the sword is unique as every other metal edged weapon was almost completely destroyed underwater leaving only the wooden parts or just a few fragments of metal trapped within concretions. The handle is wood, either beech or alder; the blade is made of iron with steel cutting edges and the basket hilt is made from quarter inch iron rods hammer welded together.



John Lippiett, Chief Executive of The Mary Rose Trust explains: “Even after 437 years in the sea, the sword is still wonderfully balanced and the edge of the blade near the hilt is sharp enough to cut. Once again the Mary Rose has yielded another unique Tudor treasure.”



So, it has a basket, with a cross guard, which is pretty sensible. The basket gives extra protection, but not full protection, and the cross gives good defensive capabilities. Full baskets are rather easier to make for most people since they don't require extensive welding.

Yann de Kerhouarn wrote:
Do you use a basket on you sword that is historically accurate for you persona?

Yes. A Darkwood schiavona.

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_24&products_id=29

talking apples and oranges now basket hilts in heavies and basket hilts in rapier, different uses...I do both so I block with my basket hilts with either form... as far as someone who fights in gauntlets, If I hit him in the hand (I try not to) or if he blocks with the gauntlet it doesn't hurt my feelings..as long as the hand stays on the sword. If he/she lets go and gets wacked in the paw intentionally, it is target substitution..

Kilkenny I agree with you. SCA has greatly changed since I started and I think mostly for the better. While our perceptions have change, yep mine have too, I also know what the SCA is, and that is a game. I was brought up like Rhys that if the hand was on a weapon and a person blocked it was OK. If you took your had off the weapon then it was fair game. While a person says blocking with baskets is wrong or that baskets are bad they will turn around and praise a guys kit who is wearing zoom bang and hockey armor under a nice looking tunic and pants. Personally I feel all this modern sport armor is more against the spirit than basket hilts, but I have no issue with guys wearing it because the rules of the game allow it.

Vebrand
Who truly should have been a later period persona

Alex Baird wrote:

Yann de Kerhouarn wrote:
Do you use a basket on you sword that is historically accurate for you persona?

Yes. A Darkwood schiavona.

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_24&products_id=29

Nice!

Now I just have to convince the entire SCA to switch to later period kits and . . POOF . . . problem solved

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:So, it has a basket, with a cross guard, which is pretty sensible. The basket gives extra protection, but not full protection, and the cross gives good defensive capabilities. Full baskets are rather easier to make for most people since they don't require extensive welding.

Not finding it quickly, but it's the Darkwood heavy-legal equivalent of this sword (which I use for C&T):
http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php ... ucts_id=19

The only one he lists any more is the schiavona hilt, but mine's specifically the English basket.

EDIT: Mine has no crossguard that extends forward from the basket.

Both styles are still on their website.

it's legal.

Yann de Kerhouarn wrote:I recently returned to heavy fighting after a nearly four year hiatus and after moving to a different kingdom.

Recently I attended a Pennsic training event where said kingdom was running drills to get everyone on the same page in terms of tactics and cohesion. One thing which was taught was how a fighter using S&S should hold the line in the event of a static engagement while facing spears. The general opinion of this kingdom seemed to be for the shieldman to cover his body (knees to face) with the shield and then place their basket hilt in front of their face essentially denying all legal target areas.

Now I was taught that blocking with a basket is to be avoided since it is not a legal target and according to how I learned the rules it seems somewhat cheesy to deny a legal target by hiding behind (and looking through) an illegal target.

Much to my shame I did not ask about this particular piece of kingdom anthropology as I was a new guy in a new kingdom and felt that questioning the King's word in this very royalist area (the exact opposite of where I came from) would not have made for a good first impression. I have since moved out of kingdom again but find myself still wondering what the prevailing sentiment is about such a defensive posture.

For the record I mean no disrespect to anyone of that kingdom as they were all very honorable fighters and very welcoming of a new guy. I simply would like to learn more about how others interpret the rules.

-Yann de Kerhouarn

Yeah, but it's gay.
Hahahahahahahahaha!

OK, it's one thing when thier basket is solid... but the lameness that I see is when the guy has a giant sized wire basket hilt they're using to see through while "protecting" themselves from a face thrust.

A couple of years back, I was at Pennsic in the ravine and I drew up across from a guy doing this. I was actually able to "thread the needle" and hit a guy in the mouth... His response was to waggle his basket at me.... I'm assuming he felt it stopped my thrust...

So in response I threw a spear shot with 'force' into his basket... (just like you sometimes hit the hell out of a guy's shield with your spear - same thing) This gentle cried out in protest that his basket was blocking this face and that I was engaging in a foul act by throwing hard at it... Apparently getting one's hand smashed into your grill is uncomfortable... My verbal response was along the lines of "what are you crying for... you made the block right?"

Sir Christian
~Atlantia~

Someone reminded me this past weekend of a melee a few years ago where an opponent was doing the "look through the basket hilt" block, and I was popping the hilt into his grill - not hard, but probably 8 or 10 times in succession. He got fed up (not angry, I knew the guy), started to charge, and a spearman to my right tagged him in the side. Probably didn't help I kept saying "Quit hitting your self, quit hitting yourself..."

.

Did he learn anything? lol

I hope so, his helm rang like a bell...


.

Sir Omarad

If you re check this thread, I'd be curious about your take on the tactic Nissan described.

Namely, intentionally striking a basket hilt of shieldman who is using it to cover his face.

(I'm assuming the itself is not excessive, per various interpretations of excessive).

Personally, I don't see a problem, why should I view it any differently than hitting his shield?

And if someone does it to me 10x in a row, should I bitch about it, or recognize that I wasn't smart enough to figure out another way to keep him from poking me in the face?

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:Personally, I don't see a problem, why should I view it any differently than hitting his shield?

I tend to agree with this. If someone wants to rules lawyer it so they can hold a baskethilt in front of their face and look through the bars, then there should be no problem with me hitting said basket hilt, even repeatedly.

I believe its legal as well but at one point a guy wanted to have my card pulled over it.

While I have no issue with hitting a guys basket that is covering his face when you are take a shot, but here is my problem with doing it with excessive force. What happens if the guy moves his basket as you throw your shot. Do you rip his head off and then say it's his fault because at one time he had his basket hilt there? Are you trying to injure his hand on purpose if he blocks with it? Sounds like some might be or at least trying to cause some extra pain because you don't like that block. If you are, should you even be on the field? From time to time we have all jacked someone with a spear. It is the nature of the weapon and the nature of melees combined that makes certain it happens. However slamming someone's hand into their grill with extreme force to teach them a lessons or because you think his block is cheesy seems wrong.

Vebrand

Vebrand wrote:While I have no issue with hitting a guys basket that is covering his face when you are take a shot, but here is my problem with doing it with excessive force. What happens if the guy moves his basket as you throw your shot. Do you rip his head off and then say it's his fault because at one time he had his basket hilt there? Are you trying to injure his hand on purpose if he blocks with it? Sounds like some might be or at least trying to cause some extra pain because you don't like that block. If you are, should you even be on the field? From time to time we have all jacked someone with a spear. It is the nature of the weapon and the nature of melees combined that makes certain it happens. However slamming someone's hand into their grill with extreme force to teach them a lessons or because you think his block is cheesy seems wrong.

Vebrand

Did someone advocate using excessive force with the thrust?
I can't find where anyone said that.