Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

For those of us who wish to talk about the many styles and facets of recreating Medieval armed combat.
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Jess
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Jess »

liviatasia wrote:I got kind of a setback when I was recently told I would never be as strong as any of the guys and I needed to keep that in mind as I moved forward with my fighting. It won't lie. It made me take pause as to whether I wanted to continue. But I figured if I can't be strong then I'll have to figure out how to be faster.
Just saw this. I have already figured out how you can get strong. Go to your local YMCA. Is there one near you? Take a BodyPump or GroupPower or orther barbell aerobics fitness class. I just started this a month or so ago. It is insanely helpful for increasing your fitness and indirectly teaching body mechanics.

Anyone who tells a woman that she does not have to be strong, that she just needs technique, is WRONG. I think they are trying to be encouraging. But it is bullshit. If you are interested in being any good, start working on your strength and fitness.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Baron Eirik »

Jess wrote:Anyone who tells a woman that she does not have to be strong, that she just needs technique, is WRONG. I think they are trying to be encouraging. But it is bullshit. If you are interested in being any good, start working on your strength and fitness.
Depends on the woman's goal. Or the guy's for that matter.

Do you need to be strong to fight? a certain minimum strength, yes, but nothing exceptional.

Do you need to be strong to fight well, be competitive, to achieve real prowess? yes.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Jess »

I am going to make the assumption a female participant in armoured sca combat wants to win fights against strangers and not just be a mascot or source of sexual attention. Call me crazy.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Gethin »

I think that perhaps there is an issue of semantics.
Will Livia ever be as strong as a man? I don't think that matters. I think that she needs to develop enough muscular strength and endurance to consistently deliver enough force in her strikes that are (in the least) at the low end of acceptable for her kingdom's culture. This is achieved by using proper biomechanics (technique) and a training regime that incorporates the moving of weights for power, speed, and endurance, among other factors.
I think that if the noble lady who fights in a wheelchair can lay low opponents at Pennsic, then Livia can do it to. Because in the end, the goal is not to be as strong as the next person , but to have the strength to lay them low.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Aaron »

When I fight with a pollaxe or glaive, it feels like a whole-body-workout. When I fight with a single handed weapon and shield (not buckler) it feels like I'll get an overuse injury and not exercise the rest of my body.

IF I could, I would fight pollaxe (cap-a-pie or the "light" 14th century suit) Monday, Wednesday, Friday and go for a hike the other days. I think I'd be in very good shape. But if I fought sword-and-shield with the same frequency, I think I'd have a shoulder/elbow/wrist injury pretty quickly.

To find out what works for exercise in the SCA, look at those who have been fighting regularly for ten years or more. Sit down with them after a tournament or war and buy them a drink or ten and ask them about what they've enjoyed about the SCA, their injuries, etc...

Or, ask that question here on the Archive.

1. Describe the funnest time you've had in the SCA/WMA/LH.

2. What are your injuries over the years you've fought?

3. What advice would you give a young, just starting fighter?

You can't get taller. You can get stronger, but strength doesn't win the fight. I'm stronger than you (I think) but if you somehow get me off line and out of position, you'll win easily.

Time for some fun quotes:
Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan: You! You could have killed him at will!
Herger the Joyous: Yes?
Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan: Well, why the deception?
Herger the Joyous: Deception is the point! Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it since we arrived. Now he has to calculate what he can't see.
Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan: And fear... what he doesn't know.
And....
Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan: (Ahmed is given a Viking sword) I cannot lift this.
Herger the Joyous: Grow stronger!
Have a fun fight out there, and be joyous!

-Aaron
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Amanda M »

Gethin wrote:I think that perhaps there is an issue of semantics.
Will Livia ever be as strong as a man? I don't think that matters. I think that she needs to develop enough muscular strength and endurance to consistently deliver enough force in her strikes that are (in the least) at the low end of acceptable for her kingdom's culture. This is achieved by using proper biomechanics (technique) and a training regime that incorporates the moving of weights for power, speed, and endurance, among other factors.
I think that if the noble lady who fights in a wheelchair can lay low opponents at Pennsic, then Livia can do it to. Because in the end, the goal is not to be as strong as the next person , but to have the strength to lay them low.
I would expect someone who is in a wheelchair to have pretty decent upper body strength.

Most women are not mutants of my size. Being stronger and in better shape than a woman of the same size off the street is going to help most women develop better technique and speed. I agree with Jess in that I think that because women have statistically less muscle mass than a guy of the same size and weight, becoming stronger is going to help them as much as working on good technique. I cannot tell you how much different everything has been for me since I started trying to get stronger. Even the simplest things like raising my shield into position are so much easier than they were. It has nothing to do with trying to be as strong as one of the guys, or developing brute strength. Being stronger can help a woman be on a more even playing field.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by maxntropy »

Isabella E wrote:Most women are not mutants of my size.
I presume that makes you a L.A.S.S. (Lady of Amazing Size and Stature)? From the Fire Swamp?

:D

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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Malcolmthebold »

maxntropy wrote:
Isabella E wrote:Most women are not mutants of my size.
I presume that makes you a L.A.S.S. (Lady of Amazing Size and Stature)? From the Fire Swamp?

:D

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she is 6' with an equivalent reach. if she fights pole hammer i have to mail my sword to her.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Amanda M »

maxntropy wrote:
Isabella E wrote:Most women are not mutants of my size.
I presume that makes you a L.A.S.S. (Lady of Amazing Size and Stature)? From the Fire Swamp?

:D

Max VH
Pretty much. :P I'm 6' and 169lb with the build of a swimmer. I'm lucky and I put on muscle fairly easily and shed fat fast too. There is a hell of a difference though between when Malcolm first started working with me and I could barely move my shield around or take more than a few swings before my arm got really tired and now, a year and a half later of regular exercise and weight lifting. I cannot recommend improving fitness for my fellow women fighters enough. Being stronger and fitter has made everything easier, even outside of SCA fighting. The benefits are just too numerous to ignore.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Tomburr »

I wonder if our calls for emphasis on technique and speed have been, in some cases, misunderstood as saying that strength improvement isn't part of the equation.
It certainly is a major factor in anyone's ability to fight and should be developed, especially amongst women, who are expected to fight with the same weapons and armour as men, while having less upper body strength on average. That is a disadvantage to be addressed.

I mentioned body mechanics, technique, balance and speed because they are more important, and developing those aspects will increase a fighter's strength as a side-effect.

I also mentioned it to drive home this point:
If you have good strength without proper form & technique, you can throw a shot hard enough to get people to call it, but you'll wear out faster and be at greater risk of injuring yourself while overcommitting to every shot you throw by necessity.

If you have decent/acceptable strength coupled with good form & technique, you can throw good, hard shots with less effort and more consistency all day long without ruining your arm.

If you have very good strength and very good form & technique, you are probably denting helms and answering to "Sir".
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by wAUrrior »

I believe that fitness is a large boon to SCA heavy fighting. I read one reference about, and I paraphase "getting pounded by a 300 pound man who hasn't seen his toes since he was a child" and I have been on the end of that fecal covered stick. I run and lift which help. But the big guy with the beard and mutton gut have been teaching and fighting a long time. They have event sepcific endurance.
Where physical fitness really matters is war type fighting. In 2007 or so I attended Gulf Wars. I was with Ansteorra at the time. It was a resurrection town battle and we were outnumbered from the get go. Well I kept fighting and dying and jogging back to the rez point and fighting and dying etc..... I noted our numbers dwindling and a large amount of fighters dropping out. Well I kept fighting and dying. At one point HRM af the time ,Romanus(sp?) had to gather up a group to plug a hole. He only had 10 of us to choose from because there was no reserve. A very large portion of the fighters had dropped out, sucking wind. It wasn't even hot. All the stick swinging and shield pushing had seperated the wheat from the chaff as it were. We were finally overwhelmed after the rez peiod was ended. The last fight was in a single house with kings and dukes and a few fighters slaughtered( I distinctly remember a young lady with a yellow rubber duck on her shield pushing and fighting in a doorway for dear life) to a man. If we had been in better shape from the start, we may have won or made a better showing.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Murdock »

I'm a little dude.

I focus on core strength and muscular endurance.

I was doing p-90x doubles for a while and running. I also life weights some, but mainly did a lot of resistance work with the free motion machine and things like pull ups and pushups.

No matter how much mass i could put on i'm never gonna be able to out brute force guys who weigh 250+ so i quit trying and went with what i can. Course right now i'm simi crippled for a few more months till my surgery helas.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Murdock »

"I knew I could run down most perps even wearing a III vest and combat boots without much effort ... and heaven help them if they decided to try and wrassle when I caught up to them! "

Siiigggghhh

I remeber that feeling.

I loved running down 18-20 something thugs who were 6'+ while wearing 20 lbs of stuff and combat boots in the dark.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Swete »

I am a small guy. 5'10" and 140lbs. At BAM I was fighting the ravine battle which was a 1 hour rez. I had to drop out after 45 minutes. I thought, "wow, I must be in bad shape..." But I then realized, when I died, I RAN back to rez and RAN back to the line and Charged, uphill half of that. I refused to stand there and let a superior force of spearmen pick me apart. There were very few on the Gleann Abhann side who were as 'active', preferring a more static approach. So, while I do need to work on my cardio a bit and increase muscle mass, I think I actually did pretty good looking back on it.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by brucer »

A couple of relevant articles that came out last year on the subject of physical exertion in armor:

http://www.livescience.com/15128-armor- ... nergy.html

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/disco ... rrible-bo/
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Laurie Wise »

Isabella E

Pretty much. :P I'm 6' and 169lb with the build of a swimmer. I'm lucky and I put on muscle fairly easily and shed fat fast too. There is a hell of a difference though between when Malcolm first started working with me and I could barely move my shield around or take more than a few swings before my arm got really tired and now, a year and a half later of regular exercise and weight lifting. I cannot recommend improving fitness for my fellow women fighters enough. Being stronger and fitter has made everything easier, even outside of SCA fighting. The benefits are just too numerous to ignore.
I'm 5'6", weigh 170lbs and just turned 60. Ten years ago, at 51, I weighed 265 and been that for years prior. Despite that, I was still quite strong from years living a rural lifestyle. However, age related inflexibility and injuries were finally catching up. I wasn't as active anymore so my arthritis in the lower back and shoulders were hurting more. Began walking like so many older snowbirds I'd see around town now. I hated the way I was feeling.... So, took a local college's Women's Strength Class to change that.

The instructor did start us out with lower weights to learn proper technique at first. A lot of very good reasons for this, especially if you never lifted free weights before. Most of the women in that class were older than I was, had worse arthritis and other health problems or therapies. Anyway, I found I loved the "feeling" as I gained strength and ran with the class's premise. After a year of classes, I dropped a lot of fat weight, built muscle mass and grew stronger. Also relearned to eat properly...which was also needed.

To illustrate "Outside the SCA fighting" point though. Shortly after beginning the class, a tire blew out on my '79 Cordoba while driving home at the time. No one was around but I knew how to change the tire using an old fashioned jack and all. A lot of physical work though as these ain't dinky tires......even for a lot of guys and I was 50 then and out of shape. Got it done properly but was very tired afterwards.

After 6 months working out, another tire blew on the same car and being all alone on the highway....I found myself changing another tire. But This Time, all that physical work hefting and lifting heavy tires around, using the jack, breaking/tightening the nuts et al... was much, much easier. Nor was I exhausted afterwards....on the contrary, I felt "GOOD".

For women, injuries can be helped if you stay in shape. For older women, building muscle also means building bone mass which keeps brittle bone and Osteo at bay.

My lower back was strengthened and no longer had arthritic pain. My shoulders felt better. There is an impingement problem in my left shoulder and my lifting was being affected. Had an MRI which discovered a bad tear in my Supraspinatis Anterior tendon and had a collar bone anomally. The latter actually caused the impingement aches. The tear didn't come from lifting but from an old fall years ago. However, the increased muscle mass had kept the tear from becoming worse. Overall, the exercises were actually helping my shoulder become better while increasing my flexibility. I made the mistake of over doing some exercises with increased weights which brought out the problems. At least, I know what to look for now.

The orthopedic doc asked if I had any exercise routine and I told the orthopedic doc I was taking a women's strength class and lifting heavy free weights. That seemed pretty extreme to him at first (most patients he saw were far older and in worse shape) He asked me Why at my age (51 then), I wanted to look like I did in my 20s? He changed his attitude when I told him my past history until beginning this regimen. I could have had surgery to fix the tear but after therapy would be long and the shoulder would never be quite the same. Taking the strength lifting exercises may mean I wouldn't need the surgery. Just change my lifting regimen. My choice.

I didn't pick surgery.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Gethin »

This may be of interest. I don't know what his Excellency's qualifications are but he does seem to know his stuff.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Steven H »

Gethin wrote:This may be of interest. I don't know what his Excellency's qualifications are but he does seem to know his stuff.
I finally got around to watching this 100 minutes of video. Unfortunately, I was disappointed. He spends a tremendous amount of time describing acquiring an "aerobic base" through long, slow, distance running (LSD), before doing interval training for conditioning. But this is an ineffective, inefficient training strategy. Interval training will achieve the objectives without the need for the LSD first.

He repeats the tired old myth about strength training shortening muscles/tendons. And that only really happens with a badly designed program, like the bodybuilder who actually matches the stereotypes.

I cover these two points in more detail here.

His analysis of which muscles needs to be endurance trained and which need strength and power is flawed. He is the first SCAdian I've encountered to suggest that the power for a shot should come from the triceps muscle, instead of the legs/hips. The prime movers of an attack are going to be the quads, glutes and pecs, all of which are nice big muscle groups, well suited to the task. The tricep is an assistance muscle, as are the deltoids.

Instead he suggests that the primary objective of training for the legs and hips and chest should be endurance. If you need endurance training for your legs just to wear your armor then you are so far from fit enough to be on the battlefield that you shouldn't be watching this video. Armor should weigh 15-20% of your bodyweight at most. While a 1RM squat of 200% of bodyweight is a good objective for an athlete. Improving your max strength for the legs will do all that's necessary for being able to hold up your armor. Even when I was new to this, it wasn't my legs that got too tired to deal with my armor.

He denies that the biceps holds up a shield and instead insists that it's the pectorals. So, try this at home: Find where your pec attaches to your sternum, and then feel out to where it attaches to your humerus. Now imagine that it's a rope you will pull on. Does that do a good job of holding your forearm up? No, but the biceps does. Now, shrug your shoulder. The muscle that did that is the trapezius. Your pec major will assist in holding up the shield arm a bit, but it's not the prime muscle.

Instead you should build up power in your pectoralis major, since it's the upper body muscle that most contributes to power generation. It's primary action is to push the arm forward. And build power in your legs. Football players wear almost as much weight in protective gear as SCAdians with 'sport' kits. And they train almost entirely for power. For hour long games.

I try not to get too grumpy about bad advice on the internet. But this topic interests me and matters to me. It's the topic of my degree program.

Cheers,
Steven
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Baron Alejandro »

One of my gigs this winter/spring is coaching rugby at the university here. We're on our break now, and getting ready to have selections for our starting team in early February. I have laid out a series of physical tests in order to gauge the fitness levels of players who want to be first on the playing field. If you're interested, here are the tests and the results I'll be expecting. Bear in mind these tests are geared towards college age male athletes.

3 kilometer run;
Minimum acceptable; 15 minutes
Better; 13 minutes
Good; 12 minutes

40 meter sprint
Minimum acceptable; 5 seconds
Better; 4.6 seconds
Good; 4 seconds

T-Test;
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/powertests.html (scroll down to T Test)
Minimum acceptable; 10.5 seconds
Better; 9 seconds
Good; 8.5 seconds

Side Plank;
Image
Minimum acceptable; 3 minutes
Better; 4 minutes
Good; 5 minutes

1 rep max test for athlete's choice of front squat, back squat, or bench press
Minimum acceptable; 1.10 times body weight (if you weigh 100 lbs you better be able to move 110lbs)
Better; 1.25 times body weight
good; 1.49 times body weight

Vertical jump test (the sargent test);
Minimum acceptable; 2 feet
Better; 26 inches
Good; > 28 inches
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Steven H »

Alejandro, thanks for providing that. Could you provide the rationale behind each of the tests?

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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Baron Alejandro »

Rationale? Like, where I got the test from? Or what I'm looking for?
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Steven H »

Baron Alejandro wrote:Rationale? Like, where I got the test from? Or what I'm looking for?
As in: why this test (as opposed to another test)? What does it test that is like the demands of rugby?
I don't know much about rugby and I'm always curious to know more.

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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Baron Alejandro »

3km; basic cardiac capacity. You need to be able to play well for the whole 80 minutes. Kinda like res battles.
40m sprint; explosive acceleration. Rugby, essentially, is getting an automobile accident, getting up, and sprint towards the next one. Kinda like the field battles at Pennsic.
T-test; Agility. Duh.
Side plank; core strength. Rucking over the ball requires a lot of core strength to convey power from the ground into your opponent. Kinda like a flat snap. ;)
1RM; over all strength. You don't have to be a giant muscle bound monster to play rugby well, but it sure don't hurt....Kinda like being in a shield wall.
Vertical jump test; Explosive leg power. Necessary for stuff like line-outs and breaking through a shieldwall.
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Steven H »

Thanks again Alejandro.

First, from those videos, it's clear that I know less about rugby than I thought I did. And didn't think I knew much :D

Second, are you familiar with and have you considered using a repeated sprint test. Such as the "30m Sprint Fatigue - Power Maintenance Test", on the same page as the T test link your provided. I know that in sports like soccer, the kind of distance run aerobic test you have is becoming less favored. I've read numerous studies showing that repeated sprint tests are better indicators of performance in soccer. I don't know how similar rugby is in it's aerobic v. anaerobic v. recovery demands.

Third, why a choice on the 1RM test? I'd think that both upper and lower body power are important for rugby.

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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Baron Alejandro »

Rugby is a game invented by bored English schoolboys. :D That should give you an insight into rationale behind the Image bits. I like to describe it as equal parts soccer, american football, a wrestling match, and hot potato.

I haven't considered a sprint test. Initially, I'm ag'in it because rugby requires a lot more than just cardiac capacity. There's a saying in rugby; "There's fit and then there's rugby fit." You don't just have to run for 80 minutes. You have to sprint 5-15 meters, get in a wrestling match, get up off the ground, and sprint to the next wrestling match. And the roles in the game vary wildly. I need the back line to be able to sprint full tilt 100 meters in minute 79, and I need the forward line to be able to move 400 lbs at the 22 meter line in minute 79.

Probably a better reason I'm not doing a repeated sprint test is because I'm coaching, not perpetrating pure athletic training. I have about 12 sessions before our first game. :shock: I don't have time to do a bunch of research and pick an offstandard/newly developing test. I might next season, but i have got to get these boys moving, like now.

However, I wouldn't be ag'in it for next season. Educate me?

The choice on the 1RM reflects my desire to see more than just a good number. Any of the three of those is a reasonable test of strength, and I'm already testing for both core strength(plank) & lower body strength (vertical leap). I also want to see their maximum potential. How do you perform at your best? What kind of heart have you got?
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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Steven H »

Thanks for the insights. The difference between coach and being the strength coach is not one I'd thought about yet.

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Re: Health and Fitness in SCA Combat

Post by Avi »

Livia Tasia wrote:I got kind of a setback when I was recently told I would never be as strong as any of the guys and I needed to keep that in mind as I moved forward with my fighting. It won't lie. It made me take pause as to whether I wanted to continue. But I figured if I can't be strong then I'll have to figure out how to be faster.
It may be true that as a woman you will never be stronger than all the guys. It may even be true that you won't be stronger than most of them. But being a woman does not mean that you will never be stronger than any of the guys. The average man is stronger than the average woman, it's true. But a woman who pursues strength, who works out regularly, who is in shape, will be stronger than a man who does not. Not everyone starts out on equal footing this way. Not even all men, or all women start out on equal footing this way. Some people will always come by strength, or speed, or skill in any given practice more easily than others. That does not mean that they will always be better. If you work harder than the boys, you will be better than the boys.

"You're just not a natural with a sword, master Alan. Some are born to it, like me. I never knew aught else, and I never wanted to. Now some--some never learn the sword at all, and they don't survive their first real fight. And then there's some--some learn the sword. They work all the extra minutes they have. They don't let a piece of metal--or Aram Sklaw--beat them."
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