Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

[JvR]

douche.

Hey didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

I picked a poor description and wasn't fair. As Johnathan mentioned, there are plenty of great SCA fighting to be witnessed. I chose a poor example to give oomph behind my statement. Totally unfair and uncalled for. The description is just what I witnessed the most at the few events I attended back when I was in the SCA. I didn't stick around long enough to see if it was the majority or just a bad day or those particular guys. I did see some higher caliber guys slugging it out and it was impressive and almost artistic to watch.

While I will never consider what you guys do as swordplay, what you guys do can be incredibly talented and artistic with some of you.

[JvR]

dbl

[Jestyr]

First you need a sword to swordfight. Standing belly to belly ass wraping each other with bamboo isn't sword fighting.

Still the SCA stuff looks fun. I tried it once at a practice. Was cool.

Johannes,

This saddens me as I know you are a good guy, but this statement comes across very derogatory and insulting.

And while, strictly speaking, fighting with a rattan baton is not "swordfighting", many of the techniques we use translate very well, as evidenced by the success of TeamUSA in the singles, where actual weapons were the deciding factor. Further, there are very clear historic examples where our medieval counterparts used wooden batons in either training or competition scenarios. When they trained with said batons, were they not practicing swordfighting?

When you were active in the SCA there were not many fighters of any skill local to you. Now there are a few, with a number within an hour or so. So while I cannot comment on any of the fights you witnessed when you participated, I can guarantee you a good fight to watch now.

What we do requires skill (and athleticism). A lot of it. Consider the time you put on armour and fought. I was going at approximately 5-10%, and you still had almost no chance of hitting me (and I am not a top tier fighter).

I say this not to berate or belittle you, but rather to enlighten you to the impact your words had, and the lack of insight they had.

Regards,
Kenric

[JvR]

Its cool. Correction and rebuke is never a bad thing. Dante made a disparaging remark against other styles of play so I returned the favor to see how he liked it, he didnt take it well I see. I still shouldn't have done it though and gone down to his level. I shouldn't even say that. He usually is a decent poster. Just surprised me to see him make a statement alluding to another group as going something beneath him and saying its not swordfighting when his game isn't either. He basically put down a great group and then sadly do did I.


As far as the topic (trying to stay on it sorry guys) I think the BotN should stay away from the SCA and the SCA should stay away from the BoTN. Both are cool in their own rights but should remain their own things. While I think steel in the SCA would be awesome it would limit the numbers of players greatly



edited out stuff better suited to a private message

[JvR]

dbl post again ugh

[Kilkenny]

They would have to be magical weapons, chain armour was VERY effective against swords, spears and arrows. The average SCA style hit, if using a real sword against chain, wouldn't do much other than bruise.

I really love unsupported assertions like this. Exactly what evidence do you have for this blanket statement?

I am aware of some experiments - half-baked as they were - the results of which dramatically contradict your assertion.

Got any backing for the bold statement?

[Gunthar]

Kilkenny sed:

I really love unsupported assertions like this. Exactly what evidence do you have for this blanket statement?

I am aware of some experiments - half-baked as they were - the results of which dramatically contradict your assertion.

Got any backing for the bold statement?

This is a bit unsupported as well because most of my knowledge comes back secondhand.
With that caveat out of the way I will say that friends here in Ansteorra did calibration testing on pig carcasses with
various and sundry weapons. There are folk here who have direct data from that but what I remember coming from
it was that chain and gambeson did a pretty good job at defending against sword strokes, better than expected job
at protecting against crushing weapons (but still sustained damage) and went to pieces against axes and spears.

One thing determined was that we call a hell of a lot lighter than would be required against the real thing and a lot
harder against spear thrusts than reality. I said all of this in a previous post.
As for arrows, it depends on the arrow and delivery device. There are stories of knights during the Crusades betting
on who would return from battle against the Saracens with the most arrows sticking out of them as the arrows would
stick in the layers of chain and cause no damage. Richard the Lionhearted was killed by an arrow because he stood out
during an arrowstorm to evaluate the defenses. This wasn't as foolhardy as it seems as it was a weird shot that managed
to get through the armor.
Against crossbows or bodkin points the chain fares far less well.

So, no, chain isn't magical protection against weapons. The weapons we use aren't one shot killing devices.
Chainmail was the very best protection available for a few hundred years. Weapons still killed.

What we do in the SCA isn't exactly accurate. But it works for us pretty well and is fun for several thousand particpants
several times a week.

[Swete]

I really love unsupported assertions like this. Exactly what evidence do you have for this blanket statement?

I am aware of some experiments - half-baked as they were - the results of which dramatically contradict your assertion.

Got any backing for the bold statement?

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html
For starters...

[edricus]

Before we stray a bit to far from the subject here are my thoughts on what might happen possible areas were the SCA might change and pick up few things.

In general I do not see the need for a BoTN style combat within the SCA, it is not my cup of tea, I like the heavy fighting game as we have, with the skills and the limitations that comes with it.

There are however things done in the BoTN and other WMA groups that could be of interest to the part of the SCA community interested in historical martial arts.

I see grapling in and out of armour as one such area to study, also live steel training as another aspects of historical martial culture. I do not see the need to add these to the HF game but I think they would be valuable to the SCA as a community interested in history with a focus on medeival and reneissance. In the future we might perhaps see wrestling competitions as a seperate activitiy as well as we now see the rising community of Cut and Thrust and fencing from the manuals.

These additions would add areas of interest for heavy fighters, grappling was an important part of martial culture, part as it is good for fighting spirit and it is also a very good work out that will help you last longer on the field. They will also help to broaden the SCA towards the WMA community and help with the common understanding of medeival martial culture.

I do not see the knock down rules as BoTN use as a desireable goal for the SCA. I am quite pleased with the system of one good hit, and it is possible to have timed fights were good blows are called out, we can have challenges, pas de armes, deeds, themed tournaments were the one good shot is not the standard. I see the one good shot as a great way to fight in melees and it is good as a standard for crown and coronett tournies.
So it is more our ability to produce good tournaments than our rules that in my mind limit us and make us undesireable to those who object.
We do see more themed tournaments such as the BoT were the requierments to enter are higher than normal, I think that this is good, for the 10+ years I have been in the SCA the levels and standards have been rising every year.

The 360 engagement rule with "kill from behind" can be done in some melees and grand melees if it is considerd to be approperiate for that activity, if renown is more important it might not be that it should be included in that tournament.

To me the SCA heavy combat is a manifestation of the joy of combat, it is not about violence, it is about challenging oneself to stand in the list, it is about sportsmanship within the limitations of the rules, it is not war, it is not "real", it is about having a good time on the field were we all can have beer (or beverage of choice) and bacon (or food of choice) afterwards, compare bruises, tell stories and have a good time. It is the idea of the grand melee and the pas de armes which brings me great joy not the concussions, broken bones, shatterd teeth or broken ribs.

In the SCA heavy fighting is only one of our pillars, we who fight do not do so only for ourselfs, we do so for our consorts, we do so for those who can not fight but enjoy our work on the field, we fight for our opponents, for our crowns, for the joy of fighting.

Yis
Edricus

[FrauHirsch1]

I don't know if I agree about spears and arrows, but maille does work better than I would have thought against swords. Its like it grabs the blade from the sides and slows it down.

Rebated mass weapons appear to work pretty similar to SCA swords in regards to maille -- I recommend wearing something rigid over breakable parts, including ribs, if you don't have sufficient natural padding. One fellow blew us all off in regards to this recommendation and got hit near the spine with a mace on just a gambeson and maille (wraps are very natural with maces). It didn't break anything, but separated muscle and soft tissues and put him out of fighting for months.

Rebated spears take very little force to feel them. Much more so than an SCA spear. AE has rules against pool cueing or using a spear one handed, so you have to keep both hands on the spear and in control at all times.

[Nissan Maxima]

Its gonna be hard to go back to SCA fighting. It is the difference between balony sandwiches and ribeye steaks.

[jester]

The SCA had unarmored wrestling. The marshalate killed that. It still happens (I saw some last Pennsic) but the key is to not let the marshals know. Not an option for me, I follow the rules. Death from behind is a long-standing western tradition. It's allowed by the Society. Maybe. The new, if it isn't permitted it's prohibited, rule set may not allow it. I don't know.

[WendallVonDerEisenstein]

Keep in mind, a legal BotN weapon does not need be a $500 sword. You can make an axe for less than $30 if you have either a welder or grinder.

If you have a drill and a hammer, you can pretty much make a full set of 1350ish splinted armour for almost nothing. I'd guess that even without being a master scrounger and buying some elbows and knees, you'd easily do it for $100.

[Count Johnathan]

...To me the SCA heavy combat is a manifestation of the joy of combat, it is not about violence, it is about challenging oneself to stand in the list, it is about sportsmanship within the limitations of the rules....
Yis
Edricus

I fully agree and I believe this is why it will have little effect on the SCA HF game. I also think it was critical to the performance of our singles fighters in the BOTN. It appeared to me as though they so outmatched their opponents that they had great difficulty breaking away from the "don't break the flailing noob" mentality. Clearly they repeatedly struck their opponents nearly as often as they liked with little difficulty. I am unsure if they were aware of what the judges were looking for as far as "stout blows" were concerned. I know they could have hit much harder and with greater frequency than they did and I bet they are kicking themselves for being "nice" because it seems to be what cost them victory.

Perhaps Nissan could enlighten us.

Nissan, good job out there. I am proud of you guys for putting yourselves to the hazard in the name of our country. I am sure your experience will be invaluable to any future teams who venture out there trying to achieve victory. Thank you. I salute you.

[Leo Medii]

When will we just accept the armor standard is a fantasy, and that it is actually clothing and a padded coif. Sigh.

[DukeAvery]

Its gonna be hard to go back to SCA fighting. It is the difference between balony sandwiches and ribeye steaks.

We'll be sorry to see you go, but we understand, now that you're in the big leagues and all.

Regards

Avery

[Aaron]

Its gonna be hard to go back to SCA fighting. It is the difference between balony sandwiches and ribeye steaks.

OK, that statement says a LOT! You had FUN!

[DukeAvery]

What happens next is the team comes home and talks to the rest of the SCA - and I can guarantee you that they'll be peppered with questions. Those that are not too good to hang out with the rattan crowd anymore. How that information will affect us is a huge question that will now play out. I will say that killing from behind is the norm out west for most melees. I would speak against adding any knock down rules from behind because of injury rate. This is no judgement on BoN however - consent is king - only in my and the ideology of others in the SCA - safety is one of our kings.

Regards

Avery

[Amanda M]

When will we just accept the armor standard is a fantasy, and that it is actually clothing and a padded coif. Sigh.

Personally I think we should just get rid of the idea altogether because what people actually wear isn't standard across the board anyway, and replace it with language that reflects legal target zones and force standards.

[edricus]

Thank you for your oppinions and input.

Please continue with your thoughts on the subject.

[Therion]

No more crying Hold.

From now on it should always be: "STOPFIGHT! STOPFIGHT! STOPFIGHT!

[Aaron]

And then a one to two minute grace period so you can still smack people until a marshal puts a flag over your visor and you can't see...then a 20 second grace period.

[Sir Guy]

After being at BOTN I don't see it changing the SCA much at all, nor do I think it should. I do see however the American Team with it's SCA (and other American Middle Ages Fighting groups- it is to early for me so non are coming to mind off the top of my head) changing the BOTN someone with our traditions.......ie salutes and our idea of honor. "CPT Zorikh" one of our fighters (the one who danced before his pro-fight- it was him and not Duke Uther) went over and to his lady before his fight to kiss her hand. The whole romantic part of the SCA and such is not not done with BOTN. It is a sport pure and simple, so I see some slight changes there.

[Askold]

When will we just accept the armor standard is a fantasy, and that it is actually clothing and a padded coif. Sigh.

Personally I think we should just get rid of the idea altogether because what people actually wear isn't standard across the board anyway, and replace it with language that reflects legal target zones and force standards.

Sounds like a good idea.

[jester]

When will we just accept the armor standard is a fantasy, and that it is actually clothing and a padded coif. Sigh.

Personally I think we should just get rid of the idea altogether because what people actually wear isn't standard across the board anyway, and replace it with language that reflects legal target zones and force standards.

Sounds like a good idea.

Why get rid of it? The SCA already allows people to hold tournaments at which the armor standard is redefined. Just set up your tournament and tell people what the armor standard is or isn't and let them have fun.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

You know, everyone who complains that SCA combat is "two walruses belly to belly throwing ass wraps" really boggles my mind - it isn't like you are REQUIRED to fight that way. I don't see why it would be considerd a reason to not fight SCA armored.


.

[Swete]

When will we just accept the armor standard is a fantasy, and that it is actually clothing and a padded coif. Sigh.

Personally I think we should just get rid of the idea altogether because what people actually wear isn't standard across the board anyway, and replace it with language that reflects legal target zones and force standards.

Sounds like a good idea.

A thousand times this. Mainly for the clarity of calbration rulings, and because of the falsehood of the statement itself: One cannot CUT through a riveted chainmail shirt with a sword. Ever. Especially with padding under it. A really good thrust or arrow, sometimes yes...depending on the quality of the mail.
We are supposed to be an educational group, and yet that is one of the biggest myths about armour out there, (blades cutting through mail and plate) and we perpetuate it in our own rule set.

[Dmitriy]

Ok, two things.

1. You do realize most of the eastern european fighters in BotN are 18-24? And they also do not have 2-10K to spend on armor? Clearly, they manage. Thick gambesons made by hand; lamellar armor that requires little skill (and a lot of time) to put together; a sword can be had for $150. A good helmet that can take a blow is the most expensive bit. That's what you need, everything else is gravy (pay more to look better, get faster, gain a few hit points.. you've all played those games ).

2. What are you talking about w.r.t. the 1:1 battles? All of our guys made it out of the first round. Jade was eliminated when there was 16 fighters on the field, Lucan -- 8 (quarters). You can see the brackets here: http://www.scallagrims.com/content/batt ... 12-webcast They did REALLY well and dominated most of their fights on the first day. But we are just not used to the format, with the fight continuing so long, with being able to take a couple of shots in order to gain a position you can land 10 from, with a powerful snap not ending the fight, with your leg being just as important as your head... This category will probably be easiest for us to break through (get them super dukes practicing this style, pick up the cardio, tune up the gear, they'll be contending for the title this time next year) -- but it didn't happen on our debut. So shut it about swordsmanship

D

[Amanda M]

I just think the standards themselves are sort of nonsensical and unnecessary to the rules themselves. The game doesn't have to change, we should just stop making assumptions about the armor everyone is or isn't actually wearing and fight like we do already without the back and forth argument.

Anyhow it's kind of a derail to the thread.

[Count Johnathan]

I get what you're saying Isabella but keep in mind the standard was designed simply to keep some people from saying "I wear plate and therefore I am impervious and invincible!" because some goombas did that so they made a standard to say no matter what you are actually wearing we consider you to be wearing no more than this......

As soon as we removed that standard those types of people would make themselves known once again. The lame arses made such a rule a necessity.

[Antonio]

I'm actually in favour of the Steel Plate is armour impervious as worn. Reason being? Encourage folks into proper armour!

[Aaron]

I like plate as proof because the dynamics would change and a sword-and-shield figher would have to change their dynamics to a more historical level. A sword-and-shield fighter can win against someone armoured in plate and mail, but they need to be skillful and get those openings without getting smashed. Sir Scott did so against me at the plate and mail tournament. He found a one inch wide open spot just behind my left shoulder where the mail had started to pull away from my arming coat. And after a furious bout, he got that spot.

Plate as proof would be annoying to most of the "standard" SCA and I would view that has having fun at their expense. So in that way I'm not for plate as proof.

In a way, I'm on the fence I guess.

-Aaron

[Aaron]

The BotN proved (sort of) that plate is proof against slashing strikes. Note that thrusts are not allowed, because thrusts might injure people. So a thrust to an OPEN spot should be fine in the SCA game IF we used plate as proof.

[Count Johnathan]

See what I mean Isabella?

[jester]

I'm actually in favour of the Steel Plate is armour impervious as worn. Reason being? Encourage folks into proper armour!

What's your SCA victory condition for a standard armoured combat bout? Right now we take a good blow to the noggin or body as a fight ender. If steel plate is impervious then the head is right out for every participant and the body will soon be. So how do you determine who wins a fight?