Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

[RoaK]

Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

No. Nor should it...

Both styles are different forms of medieval tournament style fighting. Both have their pluses and minuses; and while one style might come closer that the the other in some repects niether represent real medieval armored combat. SCA fighters will never experience full contact 360 degree knock down combat and the BoTn fighters will never get to appreciate the effect thrusting or spears have on medieval combat.

I’ll give you that BoTN is much more physically demanding and riskier the SCA HF as attested by the injury rate witnessed by the USA team at BoTN. I’m quite happy to stick with SCA armored combat thank you very much.

[Askold]

I'm actually in favour of the Steel Plate is armour impervious as worn. Reason being? Encourage folks into proper armour!

The problem with this type of thinking is that SCA has people with kits from times and places where warriors did not wear steel plate armour. So having "plate armour is impervious" rule will punish the vikings and celts and many other early period fighters.

Having a rule like that might be okay in themed events/battles but not as a general rule.

[Amanda M]

I see that people are gonna argue no matter what. :/

[Count Johnathan]

LOL

[Sjolander]

A DAGGER TO THE JUNK!!!

I'm actually in favour of the Steel Plate is armour impervious as worn. Reason being? Encourage folks into proper armour!

What's your SCA victory condition for a standard armoured combat bout? Right now we take a good blow to the noggin or body as a fight ender. If steel plate is impervious then the head is right out for every participant and the body will soon be. So how do you determine who wins a fight?

[Jan van Nyenrode]

Askold,

The current rules favour vikings and celts esspecially, running around nekkid ;P and all. So it isn't argument against armour as worn. They would at least have a dexterity benefit in the 'armour as worn' ruleset in contrast to the zero advantage you have when you are wearing plate currently.

But to be fair, the standard forn general combat is fine by me. Armour as worn is something I'd like, but would make melee's rather difficult if grappling/pushing/shoving isn't allowed.

Cheers,

Jan

[Cailin]

I'd like to see two things come out of the BoTN experience. 360 degree engagement and better helmet set up understanding.

As for the engagement, I don't think BoTN style take downs are in order, but dead from behind, strikes from behind should be fine. Eastern style engagement rules have always been frustrating and many times seem nonsensical.

[Aaron]

I noticed a change this weekend.

The SCA has always prided itself on it's manner and chivlaric behavior (as it SHOULD). This weekend I saw it much more in evidence. EVERY fighter at practice saluted his opponent for EVERY bout and the focus was fun. I know most all the fighters saw BotN (it was a hot topic of conversation) and I think it was almost an affirmation of Team USA's displays of manners at the BotN.

So that's a good one.

Nobody has ever been rude, but the civility and manners were quite obvious last weekend, in contrast to some bouts at the BotN.

-Aaron

[Said ibn-Ali]

I am not looking foward to anyone running up behind me with an unpadded polearm or a great sword and cracking one off across my back. Sorry but I dont give a hot damn what kind of armour I am wearing that is going to suck and I would honestly lose my cool long before I called it good. I have had it happen already in a few melees and I have turned around and layed the poor bastard out with a guantleted punch to the grill. I am not looking to have cracked vertebrae, or broken shoulder blades, because some over zealous kid with a stick wants to make a name for himself.

I am also against the grappling during melees, unless they are in "event" melees like Battle of Thirty or the like.
The reason is, I dont want some again over zealous kid running up behind someone, me, and kicking me in the back of the knee and blowing it out AGAIN! 20,000 dollar knee surgeries are not fun.

We dont want that kind of game in the SCA as a whole, we are not prepaired for it, and vast majority of the fighters out here would leave or move on to other things if it got to become a money game or a sport of injuries.

[Cailin]

I am also against the grappling during melees, unless they are in "event" melees like Battle of Thirty or the like.

We dont want that kind of game in the SCA as a whole, we are not prepaired for it, and vast majority of the fighters out here would leave or move on to other things if it got to become a money game or a sport of injuries.

I agree with the no grappling part of your statement. Do you think you could handle western sca style engagement?

[Said ibn-Ali]

I am also against the grappling during melees, unless they are in "event" melees like Battle of Thirty or the like.

We dont want that kind of game in the SCA as a whole, we are not prepaired for it, and vast majority of the fighters out here would leave or move on to other things if it got to become a money game or a sport of injuries.

I agree with the no grappling part of your statement. Do you think you could handle western sca style engagement?

I am unfamilure with it. I know in Atlantia as long as your line has engagement with the other line in melee you are 360 engagment. But if you are not part of a line or have left engagement with the other line you can not run around behind them and start clobbering them in the back of the head. You can however foul weapons or shields from behind, with your weapon or shield. Or as I call it lazy mans hug.


Could you explain Western SCA style engagment to me? I may be cool with it, I may not, but I dont know.

[Antonio]

Ahem. Shouldn't type when tired. I meant to say

"Steel plate is _arrow_ impervious as worn."

[Kilkenny]

I'd like to see two things come out of the BoTN experience. 360 degree engagement and better helmet set up understanding.

As for the engagement, I don't think BoTN style take downs are in order, but dead from behind, strikes from behind should be fine. Eastern style engagement rules have always been frustrating and many times seem nonsensical.

Question for you:

How many times have you been hit from behind? And I mean with the same sort of force you would expect for a "good" blow from the front?

Has it occurred to you that there might be some experience behind our rule of not allowing hitting from behind?

[jester]

I am also against the grappling during melees, unless they are in "event" melees like Battle of Thirty or the like.

We dont want that kind of game in the SCA as a whole, we are not prepaired for it, and vast majority of the fighters out here would leave or move on to other things if it got to become a money game or a sport of injuries.

I agree with the no grappling part of your statement. Do you think you could handle western sca style engagement?

I am unfamilure with it. I know in Atlantia as long as your line has engagement with the other line in melee you are 360 engagment. But if you are not part of a line or have left engagement with the other line you can not run around behind them and start clobbering them in the back of the head. You can however foul weapons or shields from behind, with your weapon or shield. Or as I call it lazy mans hug.


Could you explain Western SCA style engagment to me? I may be cool with it, I may not, but I dont know.

To what you have said above add: And when you place your weapon in front of their face you clearly state "My lord, you are dead from behind." Thereby demonstrating that you could have gakked the living-shit out of them but courteously chose not to.

[Cailin]

Question for you:

How many times have you been hit from behind? And I mean with the same sort of force you would expect for a "good" blow from the front?

Has it occurred to you that there might be some experience behind our rule of not allowing hitting from behind?

A fair number of times outside of the sca, and in wrapping unit engagements out west. Dukes have de-cleated me with spears to the side of the head, and when wrapping a flank I've taken great weapons to the back and head, which are legal anyways.

I understand that there was likely a reason for a rule, which is why I'd be fine with the propagation of the western convention of death from behind:

a. Melee Combatants killing Melee Combatants
(1) Melee combatants will kill other melee combatants from the front or in a line battle by delivering a "good" blow with their weapon.
(2) Melee combatants will kill other melee combatants from behind or by surprise by placing a single-handed weapon across the faceplate of the opponent, or placing a polearm or spear on the shoulder of the opponent, and saying "you are dead from behind, my lord" or an equivalent phrase. Killing from behind will not be done at a run, and the attacker must exhibit CONTROL over their opponent. However, as with killing from the front, it is up to the opponent whether a kill from behind was good or not. This action must be repeated for every opponent to be killed from behind or by surprise.

Having played in both traditions, I find I like the western way of handling acknowledgment more than the eastern one. In my experience, it tends to be less contentious. It also feels slightly, very slightly more appropriate to me.

[Askold]

Ummm... We use kill-from-behind and kill-on-ground in Drachenwald as well, (And I like it for many of the reasons said in this thread.) but you keep talking about "western way" are these rules really uncommon in US kingdoms or are there different variations on the rules?

[Cailin]

In conus, the usage of kill from behind as described above is split more or less geographically down the middle. The on the western side of the country use it, those on the eastern side don't. There might be geographic exceptions that I'm not aware of.

I've fought in atenveldt, outlands, atlantia, aethelmearc and the middle.

[Antonio]

Ummm... We use kill-from-behind and kill-on-ground in Drachenwald as well, (And I like it for many of the reasons said in this thread.) but you keep talking about "western way" are these rules really uncommon in US kingdoms or are there different variations on the rules?

Well, the trouble we have in the Brighthelm tourney getting 'Kills from Behind' accepted in the Heavy version (Circle of Treachery Tourney, any and all alliances permitted, but point goes to the single living person alive at the end of the bout. First to 3 victories wins the tourney. Unless it's Padraig, when he has to get to 4.)

The general view is an agreement not to use KFB or KotG for reasons of chivalry.

[Aaron]

I'd like to see two things come out of the BoTN experience. 360 degree engagement and better helmet set up understanding.

As for the engagement, I don't think BoTN style take downs are in order, but dead from behind, strikes from behind should be fine. Eastern style engagement rules have always been frustrating and many times seem nonsensical.

Question for you:

How many times have you been hit from behind? And I mean with the same sort of force you would expect for a "good" blow from the front?

Has it occurred to you that there might be some experience behind our rule of not allowing hitting from behind?

I know that a shot I'm prepared for lands MUCH lighter than a shot I'm unprepared for. The shot I'm aware of usually lands skippy because I'm "rolling" with the shot, but because I'm in plate I just accept it. But when I don't know somebody is there and they throw effectively the same shot, it's much stronger. I think that's part of the reason hitting from behind should be a concern.

Now "death from behind" should be fine though. That was eye-opening out here. Get someone to cover your back, etc...

-Aaron

[FrauHirsch1]

Askold, I think you find DFB and DOTG mostly in West, Caid, An Tir, Artemesia, Atenveldt and the Outlands and likely any kingdom that was created from one of those kingdoms.

[Said ibn-Ali]

To what you have said above add: And when you place your weapon in front of their face you clearly state "My lord, you are dead from behind." Thereby demonstrating that you could have gakked the living-shit out of them but courteously chose not to.

This I could live with and would actually enjoy.

[Theodore]

I see that people are gonna argue no matter what. :/

Well, this is the Armour Archive.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

How many times have you been hit from behind? And I mean with the same sort of force you would expect for a "good" blow from the front?

Dunno. Many times? It's kind of annoying. I would say that MOST of the time in a melee I am hit by someone because I am unawares. I mean, if I was aware, I'da blocked it. The exception is spear fighting my betters.

Has it occurred to you that there might be some experience behind our rule of not allowing hitting from behind?

Indeed! In fact I was wondering this just the other day! I sort of assumed that people didn't like getting hit from behind and called it unchivalrous so banned it.

[Thothrekr]

How many times have you been hit from behind? And I mean with the same sort of force you would expect for a "good" blow from the front?

Dunno. Many times? It's kind of annoying. I would say that MOST of the time in a melee I am hit by someone because I am unawares. I mean, if I was aware, I'da blocked it. The exception is spear fighting my betters.

Has it occurred to you that there might be some experience behind our rule of not allowing hitting from behind?

Indeed! In fact I was wondering this just the other day! I sort of assumed that people didn't like getting hit from behind and called it unchivalrous so banned it.

One of the biggest memories I have in my short fighting career was at a melee practice. We were doing 5 v 5s at the time and my team was winning. I think we had just defeated their second to last guy making the numbers either 3 or 4 to 1. The one made a quick pass and survived our first attacks but then charged our remaining pole arm fighter, literally running right past me. I was already throwing a shot as he was passing, so I adjusted the shot so now it was going right to the back of his head. I pulled back at the last second, it hit but with a lot less power than I had initially been throwing. He called good and as soon as it was clear we had all heard him and stopped, he immediately turned to me and thanked me for not lighting him up. Made an impression in part because it hadn't even been a thought process to me, just a natural reaction. Even then I was only a bit behind him, as much to the side as behind.

[Kilkenny]

How many times have you been hit from behind? And I mean with the same sort of force you would expect for a "good" blow from the front?

Dunno. Many times? It's kind of annoying. I would say that MOST of the time in a melee I am hit by someone because I am unawares. I mean, if I was aware, I'da blocked it. The exception is spear fighting my betters.

Has it occurred to you that there might be some experience behind our rule of not allowing hitting from behind?

Indeed! In fact I was wondering this just the other day! I sort of assumed that people didn't like getting hit from behind and called it unchivalrous so banned it.

Yeah, typically, when we see a shot coming we do something to block it. It's the ones we don't see coming that get us.

But that's not what I'm addressing. I'm talking about the guy who runs across the field from behind you and lays one across the back of your head when you don't see anyone around to be fighting at all. The flat out coldcocking you from behind kind of shot.

It's not nearly so much a matter of it being unchivalrous as it is of getting your world rocked on a regular basis. It came in as a safety regulation.

Personally, I like the Western engagement rules and am fine with being at hazard from people behind me coming up and declaring me dead from behind - or putting the weapon on me and declaring me dead on the ground.

I do not like legalizing hitting from behind - and no, I don't mean banning wraps

Duke Darius has a tale of fighting someone in a melee and repeatedly wrapping the fellow to the back of the helm, firmly, and the fellow repeatedly yelling, with more and more vehemence "Stop hitting me from behind" - even with Darius telling him "Dude, it's me hitting you" while looking him dead in the eye.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Yeah, been hit square in the back many times as well. Not really much worse than getting hit in the front. If the problem is that people are hitting too hard, there are already rules for that. I could see modding the rules that shots from behind should be thrown to the helmet.

There isn't really that fine a line of control from "hitting hard enough to the helmet to make him notice" and "knocking him ass over tea kettle" is there? Of course I guess spears would have to be allowed to thrust people in the head...

[Bulby37]

I see that people are gonna argue no matter what. :/

I have to offer that a statement in favor of pie will most likely be met with no argument.

[Antonio]

Pie, or cake? Or Crumble?

[Bulby37]

It doesn't matter, guy. Whatever you want!

[WendallVonDerEisenstein]

I am not looking foward to anyone running up behind me with an unpadded polearm or a great sword and cracking one off across my back. Sorry but I dont give a hot damn what kind of armour I am wearing that is going to suck and I would honestly lose my cool long before I called it good. I have had it happen already in a few melees and I have turned around and layed the poor bastard out with a guantleted punch to the grill. I am not looking to have cracked vertebrae, or broken shoulder blades, because some over zealous kid with a stick wants to make a name for himself.

You should have your card pulled.

[FrauHirsch1]

In my opinion, SCA armor does not adequately protect the spine for full strike blows with a two handed weapon. The two times I've been hit to the point where I feel very lucky I wasn't injured - one was to the top of the head with an illegal weapon and the other horizontally just under the shoulder blades with a great weapon that sent me flying. Both blows felt like my entire nerves lit up with pain top to toes and like my spine was compressed to some degree. I was really glad that I wear much better than average armor.

Both blows were just way harder than necessary, both should have used DFB.

People sometimes just go a little bit wild.

[swansman]

I am not looking foward to anyone running up behind me with an unpadded polearm or a great sword and cracking one off across my back. Sorry but I dont give a hot damn what kind of armour I am wearing that is going to suck and I would honestly lose my cool long before I called it good. I have had it happen already in a few melees and I have turned around and layed the poor bastard out with a guantleted punch to the grill. I am not looking to have cracked vertebrae, or broken shoulder blades, because some over zealous kid with a stick wants to make a name for himself.

You should have your card pulled.

^ I agree. While it would suck getting hit in the back, IMHO it is far worse to lose your temper and to punch a guy hard enough to 'lay him out'.

Any-ways, I think it would be fun to have BoN like rules for SOME or SPECIAL SCA melees using rattan weapons. As long as we can keep the rule of not hitting the knees or lower and upping the protection level (like hard spine protection) and have wood only shields or small steel bucklers.

[Joseph]

Where as I wouldn't want to be hit from behind with full force, I wouldn't mind death from behind as an option.

[FrauHirsch1]

We were having a lot more hitting from behind and blindsiding before DFB IMHO.

[Said ibn-Ali]

I am not looking foward to anyone running up behind me with an unpadded polearm or a great sword and cracking one off across my back. Sorry but I dont give a hot damn what kind of armour I am wearing that is going to suck and I would honestly lose my cool long before I called it good. I have had it happen already in a few melees and I have turned around and layed the poor bastard out with a guantleted punch to the grill. I am not looking to have cracked vertebrae, or broken shoulder blades, because some over zealous kid with a stick wants to make a name for himself.

You should have your card pulled.

And this is your opinion.

It is appreciated and noted, but has been voted on and shot down by the committee of marshals at that event. The fighter in question who I did this to, was hitting in excess, refusing to take shots, and was looking to injure people. I was warned, and I moved on, this was years ago long before I was in Atlantia. And long before I had my anger management classes after the Army for PTSD.

So without knowing the whole story it would be appreciated if you added something constructive to the discussion instead of your opinion on one persons action.

This is me being polite.