Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

[Gaston de Clermont]

That's weird- I was knighted in the West when I was 26. Has the SCA changed so much that such a thing isn't happening any more?

[MJBlazek]

How old are you now? Could 1: There be less recruits of younger age that are of Knightly LEvel or 2: Could the bar set to be called a Knight have been raised in the time since you were Knighted? Could it ba a little of Collum A a little of B? Or a complete different set of events?

[Xager]

Ha! But we are cranks with wooden swords. If HMB had existed when I was a kid I would have jumped at it. Of course I am an old man and I jumped at it.

Hey Xager, For reference, how old are you? I just want to know if I have armour older than you.

I doubt it. I am 28 years old.

I once fought with wooden swords - it's disgusting. Certainly we did not have rattan. Maybe on them sense the other. We used a piece of wood with a cloth pasted. A hand with a light piece of wood, accustomed to 2.5 kilo (we trained on the weighted sword for strength), fluttered like a butterfly. It turned out to strike a second - complete mess. Not beautiful, not interested.

IMHO I think it should be all - steel, wood and plastic (if need be). The place should be for all. In general, I do not understand how you can live without fight on iron.

[Dmitriy]

Gaston, I was the youngest western knight for about 5 years straight, having been knighted at 23. Still one of the youngest at 31. In fact I'm not sure who's younger, I just assume someone is.. maybe Mark or Castings/Leif?

Xager -- you may want to moderate your tone regarding the hobbies of people whose forum you are posting on, even if you think your ways are superior. It's just polite.

[Xager]

Xager -- you may want to moderate your tone regarding the hobbies of people whose forum you are posting on, even if you think your ways are superior. It's just polite.

Sorry, did not want to offend anybody. Difficulties of translation. And I was very passionate about steel fighting. Until this year I did not hear about state reconstruction in North America. For me it was a real shock to find out that steel fight is not so popular as ours.

[Dmitriy]

Не страшно, у всех бывает

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

Gaston, I was the youngest western knight for about 5 years straight, having been knighted at 23. Still one of the youngest at 31. In fact I'm not sure who's younger, I just assume someone is.. maybe Mark or Castings/Leif?

Xager -- you may want to moderate your tone regarding the hobbies of people whose forum you are posting on, even if you think your ways are superior. It's just polite.

Judging the tone of a text based posting from someone who clearly does not speak english as a first language is a bit silly, don't you think?

Frankly I think the same of any boffer fighter who takes themselves seriously. They may have fun doing it and that is great, but swinging around foam paddles and thinking you are a warrior is just nonsense. I can sympathize with how an all steel fighter would regard our hobby which seems rather like a nerf bat fight in comparison.

We should not be so in love with our rattan that we bury our heads in the sand and pretend that other options don't exist. Is rattan NOT a sub-optimum replacement for something we would ALL rather be using in many scenarios? I am not so foolish as to think one could replace rattan with steel for everything we do, particularly the HUGE melees and the amount of thrusting that goes on, but surely steel has SOME place in our game other than as disadvantage-granting armour plates?

We should be embracing foreign ideas and welcoming commentary from similar hobbyists, not warning them to "moderate their tone" lest they dare criticize our hobby. Criticism is good, criticism is healthy, criticism leads to change and growth.

[LucasMaxwell]

The SCA mocked the steel weapons for the longest time as unsafe, dangerous and still having little historical credibility. Other groups need not respect our combat form any more than we have to others over the years. Think of the grief some here have given to LARPing which we are a hair's breadth from ourselves.

Don't tell them to watch their tone, invite them to have a go at our game and see if that changes their mind. At the same time as they might have something to teach us.

[Dmitriy]

Oh for cripes sakes, guys, turn that mirror of self-righteousness around, will ya. Where did you get that I'm in love with rattan? I bet I posted videos of Russians fighting with steel and decried knee-fighting on AA long before you even had logins .

Tone is important, and it helps having the right tone when crossing between different groups. It's especially tricky when communicating in a foreign language. That's why it helps to get an early warning that one is veering into language more likely to offend than communicate. Xager and I can work things out, we have at least 2 languages in common.

[Bulby37]

What does he mean by "state reconstruction" up there? I had assumed from the earlier context that "reconstruction" meant reenactment, but I can't figure out the state part

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

Oh for cripes sakes, guys, turn that mirror of self-righteousness around, will ya. Where did you get that I'm in love with rattan? I bet I posted videos of Russians fighting with steel and decried knee-fighting on AA long before you even had logins .

Tone is important, and it helps having the right tone when crossing between different groups. It's especially tricky when communicating in a foreign language. That's why it helps to get an early warning that one is veering into language more likely to offend than communicate. Xager and I can work things out, we have at least 2 languages in common.

Reading back over what I wrote, I should have divided it up better. The first and last parts were in reference to you, the rest of it was just a general reaction to the thread, not accusatory.

Self righteous? Whatever, I'm a million times as humble as thou art.

[Xager]

Нас Русских вообще часто заносит когда дело касается любимого спорта. Пришла новая хреновая власть - ерунда, очередной террористический акт - бывает, инопланетяне атакуют - кого этим удивишь. Но стоит сборной по футболу проиграть очередной матч и Россия превращается в зону боевых действий (горящие остовы автомобилей, толпы болельщиков бьющихся с ОМОНом).

We Russian go crazy when it comes to favorite sport. Came a new crap government - nothing, the next terrorist attack - boring, the aliens attack - this will no surprise anyone. But if football team lose another match Russia becomes a war zone (burning skeletons of cars, crowds of fans beating with police).

Don't tell them to watch their tone, invite them to have a go at our game and see if that changes their mind. At the same time as they might have something to teach us.

It make sense. I should not judge what I had not seen. I was based exclusively on personal experience of fighting with wood. I do not know how you are fighting. A rotan I never have seen in my life. Maybe someone give a link to interesting video of wood fight?

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

What does he mean by "state reconstruction" up there? I had assumed from the earlier context that "reconstruction" meant reenactment, but I can't figure out the state part

North American Union. Be prepared to turn in your dollars for the new Amero at an arbitrary exchange rate. Military service is compulsory.

Actually no, I have no idea what he meant.

[Aaron]

Here is a 38 minute fight Sir Angus and I did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A60CrsldggE

Minor bruising but I was sweating buckets and was flopping tired at the end.

Watch my head at 37 seconds. You can't do that in the BotN because thrusting isn't allowed. What I did to Sir Angus at 26 seconds into the video is allowed at the BotN. The video is abreviated from the 38 minutes we fought.

It was based on the sand in the hourglass. We started and the hourglass started. But if we took a break, the hourglass ran BACKWARDS and we paid for the time. There were some armour failures and I went through two pairs of gauntlets.

Duncan the Monster posted this "Helmet Cam" video of a shield charge at Pennsic. It's fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj_3vYo2gF0

-Aaron

[Aaron]

We also have combat archery as well as spears. Thrusting is allowed, but done "safely" due to padding and rubber tips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxzSdxLQ ... re=related

[Xager]

Actually no, I have no idea what he meant.

Condition in which the movement of reconstruction. Situation in the Noth Amerika reconstruction.

Cостояние в котором находится движение реконструкции в Америке.

[Aaron]

Due to the lower physical and armour requirements, we have more people on the field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIMo8T9B6CU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrueFThe ... re=related

And fights in woods, and other odd locations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWOb_DvWwWg

[MJBlazek]

That combat archer should have loosed the first volley as soon as they started walking

[Dmitriy]

Xager -- SCA hits "full force" with target areas from above the knees to the head (no wrists). A single "telling" blow to the head or body is sufficient to defeat an opponent. Shield strikes and wrestling moves are not allowed. I think the one-shot-kill habit is what really tripped up our 1:1 champions at BotN, they aren't used to having to keep going once they crack someone in the head. This also causes our fighters to be a lot more cautious on engagement, as a single missed blow means the fight is over.
We also do this thing where if you get hit in a limb (leg or arm) you can't use it for the rest of the fight, so people fight from their knees, with one hand behind their back, etc. That part is totally silly, in my opinion, but that's the way it's been done for 40+ years.. sigh.
We have really big battles (biggest one I've been to had 1200 people on each side, but smaller ones are more common of course). Rules are the same; there is no striking from the back (your opponent has to be aware of your presence).

Here's a fight (bug guy in red went to BotN this year): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPg9Zn7 ... re=related

There's some pretty sick footage of the big battles here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuFUhALxcJk

[Dmitriy]

state OF reconstruction...

[Aaron]

This video from Estrella is beautiful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yUp-jwi ... re=related

-Aaron

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

state OF reconstruction...

I keep thinking back to the post slavery american reconstruction period, but I don't think that is what he means.

The state of our "reconstruction" or historic recreation hobbies?

[Aaron]

Spears and thrusting make for a different game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... VH6sk&NR=1

[Xager]

Here is a 38 minute fight Sir Angus and I did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A60CrsldggE

Hmm. Looks a little bit harder than our wood and weighter. However, one can see the difference with the metal. Fight a soft, slow and relaxed. It is seen that people come to have fun. Then as we go to fight for real. As ordinary in a street fight. Seriously and with anger. Metal does not relax. Strikes bring the pain, and with it comes a sense of real battle.

Duncan the Monster posted this "Helmet Cam" video of a shield charge at Pennsic. It's fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj_3vYo2gF0

))))) real fun

We have really big battles (biggest one I've been to had 1200 people on each side, but smaller ones are more common of course)

Here also an important point. In the our steel battles, and with our policy would be similar over at least a dozen deaths. Especially if we will fight with the Poles. He does not like Russian. This was clearly seen in BOtN 2012. Old resentments.

---

Given what I saw - it's not so bad. It's very very fun. But in this more fun than a serious sport. Great fun for kids, beginners or those who see the armor for the first time. For those, who want get fun, not injured. For those who want to come to the festival the whole family and relax. Steel it is for kamikaze who want to test self on strength. Maybe that is why in Russia steel is very popular. More people with suicidal tendencies .

In Russia also there are people who are struggling on the tree, but they are not so much. This is mostly interesting for who like to role play. These are mainly high school students. I remember. Once some guys from our club acted in a scene about the Robin Hood in Stavropol. Very similar to what you describe. Also the wooden weapons, also count points.

I think steel weapon can find place among wood and rattan in US. He can find his crazy fans. People like me .

I hope this time no one offended. This is my strictly personal opinion.

[LucasMaxwell]

And now we are talking about our different games with respect because you can't demand it... just explain what you do, why you do it and how much fun you have doing it.

Well done chaps.

[Milan H]

Being half Czech, I understand the resentment towards Russians. For as long as I can recall, the whole Czech side of my family spoke badly about Russia. Plus being an American raised during the cold war, well... I don't need to say much else. Fortunately, I have come to accept things for what they are and I can stop blaming individuals for the acts of nations.

As for the SCA fighting, there is almost no anger on the field. Our fighting culture generally strives for the Romantic, Chivalric ideal of joyous friendly combat. Its more for fun and honor, than for shear brutal fighting. We do get into seriously competitive fights, but afterwards its usually a beer around the campfire with our opponent celebrating the days fights.

Also, there are a lot of people who fight in the SCA with rattan because it is the only major group around. Its the giant of medieval reenactment here, partly because the steel groups tend to be isolated and scattered around the country. The aftermath of BOTN will move steel fighting into more areas, I think, but the giant rattan monster of the SCA is pretty much tattooed on the reenactment game in North America (for better and for worse.)

Xager, the intensity of steel fighting, russian style, is desired by a lot of lunatics in the USA as well. The rest of the world just has to give us time to figure out our way to do it, as I don't ever see it getting as angry as you described here. I'm sure that many of the people at BOTN noticed that the American team brought a very different attitude to the field in Poland, and its best to expect that to continue. Here, we joke that we only want to kill our friends, not hurt them. (Meaning: Beat them by the rules of the sport, but cause no real physical harm)

Interesting discussion!

Cheers!

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

Metal does not relax. Strikes bring the pain

This is the greatest thing I have read all day.

[Bulby37]

I have seen fights with a little more anger than Aaron vs. Sir Angus up there, but the SCA emphasis is on honor, safety, and competition, in that order. Not that the competition aspect is just an afterthought, but it's more about competing with yourself than beating someone into the ground. It tends to be analogous to chess, with technique and strategy being at the forefront, and uncontrolled anger tends to impede that type of thinking. With that said, there are many fighters who keep a little anger under their belts. They have to be able to use it to swing harder, be faster, or push themselves rather than letting it be an excuse for losing.
Not that this is what BotN people do, using anger as an excuse, that is. It seems from what I have gathered that the BotN is a little closer to what young men think of when young men think of Knightly endeavours, the battle, the toil, the glorious violence in pursuit of conquest.
The SCA is an older man's vision of Knighthood, with honor, loyalty, and a pinch of courtly love thrown in a simmering pot of battle.

[Dmitriy]

The intensity gets much higher in big melees and high-stakes tournaments, but yeah, the base level can be much lower because the overall activity is significantly safer. It is to Russian steel fighting as Judo is to MMA . Judo is also a sport, but it has a lot fewer broken noses... and the judo lunatics tend to start playing MMA on the side these days.

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

EDIT:

That was intended to be a private message. Derp.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

And here is Dmitiry acting the Russian Iron when we know he is a beloved Russian Bear in the West Kingdom.

And I agree with the anger bit. I think BOTN has no more anger than Rugby, Hockey, or American Football (Correct me if I am wrong here Xager). I can tell you that I'm able to fight SCA style without anger even being a thing to enter my head even though I have a Mood Disorder that specifically gives me Anger issues. On the SCA field I feel no animosity, not even at a War. Just the feeling of folks striving to do their best.

-Ivan

[Xager]

Being half Czech, I understand the resentment towards Russians. For as long as I can recall, the whole Czech side of my family spoke badly about Russia. Plus being an American raised during the cold war, well... I don't need to say much else. Fortunately, I have come to accept things for what they are and I can stop blaming individuals for the acts of nations.

As for the SCA fighting, there is almost no anger on the field. Our fighting culture generally strives for the Romantic, Chivalric ideal of joyous friendly combat. Its more for fun and honor, than for shear brutal fighting. We do get into seriously competitive fights, but afterwards its usually a beer around the campfire with our opponent celebrating the days fights.

Also, there are a lot of people who fight in the SCA with rattan because it is the only major group around. Its the giant of medieval reenactment here, partly because the steel groups tend to be isolated and scattered around the country. The aftermath of BOTN will move steel fighting into more areas, I think, but the giant rattan monster of the SCA is pretty much tattooed on the reenactment game in North America (for better and for worse.)

Xager, the intensity of steel fighting, russian style, is desired by a lot of lunatics in the USA as well. The rest of the world just has to give us time to figure out our way to do it, as I don't ever see it getting as angry as you described here. I'm sure that many of the people at BOTN noticed that the American team brought a very different attitude to the field in Poland, and its best to expect that to continue. Here, we joke that we only want to kill our friends, not hurt them. (Meaning: Beat them by the rules of the sport, but cause no real physical harm)

Interesting discussion!

Cheers!

I have seen fights with a little more anger than Aaron vs. Sir Angus up there, but the SCA emphasis is on honor, safety, and competition, in that order. Not that the competition aspect is just an afterthought, but it's more about competing with yourself than beating someone into the ground. It tends to be analogous to chess, with technique and strategy being at the forefront, and uncontrolled anger tends to impede that type of thinking. With that said, there are many fighters who keep a little anger under their belts. They have to be able to use it to swing harder, be faster, or push themselves rather than letting it be an excuse for losing.
Not that this is what BotN people do, using anger as an excuse, that is. It seems from what I have gathered that the BotN is a little closer to what young men think of when young men think of Knightly endeavours, the battle, the toil, the glorious violence in pursuit of conquest.
The SCA is an older man's vision of Knighthood, with honor, loyalty, and a pinch of courtly love thrown in a simmering pot of battle.

Well said.

I understood much about the SCA from your statements.

I would like to clarify some point. Anger that I talked about starting after the word "fight" and ends with "stop the fight." Our fighters are fighting not to inflict pain or kill others. In order to combat in the flames of this was born the true glory and brotheship.

What can compare with the moment when you beat up their strength and even further. Then you go from the battlefield and your opponents slam you on the shoulder and look at you with respect. When sitting at a campfire and passing the wineskin of beer do you tell who and how someone punched. The more competition is similar to a real fight, the thrill and the stronger the connects are fighting people. Robert wrote about this in his article "I woke up with a Russian looking at me, smiling, and embracing me as a brother would". What can tie stronger people than good fight.

It is difficult to explain in their own language, but through Google Translate is impossible. I hope you understand what I mean.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Xager-

There is a saying: You cannot know a man till you fight him.

I think when you say anger do you mean Passion, Fire, Daring, Drive, Battlejoy, the Mad Exultation of Battle, or Rush?

The motivation you describe is similar to what makes some climb cliff's without ropes yes?

-Ivan

[Xager]

I think when you say anger do you mean Passion, Fire, Daring, Drive, Battlejoy, the Mad Exultation of Battle, or Rush?

The motivation you describe is similar to what makes some climb cliff's without ropes yes?

Yes you can say that. So even better. Вы меня правильно поняли. Наверное я не самое удачное слово выбрал.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Вы меня правильно поняли. Наверное я не самое удачно слово выбрал. = You understand me correctly. I guess I'm not very well chosen words.?

Anger is a dark & powerful monster to some, a Demon to others, a drug to more.

What you describe is a Russian Adrenaline Junkie which we Americans understand quite well.

Look at Alex Honnold free solo climb Half-Dome mountain in Yosemite National Park.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICBrXUuwvgg

"Citius!
Altius!
Fortius!"