Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

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Robert Downey
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Robert Downey »

Gentlemen. I would like to address the question of the Original Poster.

This is purely my opinion, and is not meant as some kind of blanket statement from my Brothers.

Combat with BoTN and HMB style rules, and equipment has no business EVER EVER EVER being a part of the SCA.

1. There is NO WAY to make this “safe” as defined by the general consensus of SCA rattan fencers.
2. The level of violence and rate of injury is vastly past the threshold that is acceptable to the SCA community.
3. There is no viable reason that I can think of to do so. If you are driven to this test, than train for the team.

Here’s the bottom line, my friends. What is not evident in the videos is the overall accepted risk, and the level of pure violence necessary to take that particular list field. I love SCA rattan fencing. At its best, it is an elegant martial sport. When it is used to its potential, it can be a vehicle for self-realization and improvement. But you should never have a decent chance of going home in a puff chair.

It should never be a test of fortitude to the level that HMB style combat is. It just shouldn’t. Frankly, we only need one of those, and it should only be used for those who are driven to do so.

To be honest, if you are thinking you want to do this, just “cause it will be fun”, you really need to stop for a second, and think.

Perhaps a few stories will get across the accepted level of risk I am talking about.

It is the first day. Due to not being able to talk any of the languages, the whole USA team had been standing in armor, in the sun, for three hours. My heart rate had been steady at round 150 bpm for at least one of those hours. I had completely lost the ability to shed heat. We wound up being the sixth fight of the day. We had seen three guys get carried off on backboards already, and shuttled off into the three ambulances they had on rotation. The fight just before ours finished, and they moved one of the ambulances to the entrances of the list. The fourth guy they pulled off wasn’t moving…. At all… They were rushing to shove him in the ambulance so they could get it out of the way for us to take the field. You know those gladiator movies, where they plunge the hook into the dead guy to pull him off the arena? Yeah, that’s what it felt like.

I will never forget the look that passed between Brad and Myself. The reality of it slammed home to all of us. They closed the ambulance doors on the unmoving man at arms, and it was our turn…..

In Felix’s first one on one fight, He was fighting a Dane. Felix was doing really well. The fight ended when Felix cut the end of the Dane’s finger off. Later that day, The Dane proudly gave Felix the fingernail from his severed finger as a Martial souvenir, and promised to send him Video of the surgery.

One of the Belarusians, (I think) had his finger cut off. It was hanging on by a flap of skin and the tendon. They did not want to take him in to the hospital for such a minor injury, as they needed it for the “actual” injuries. They set the bone, and sewed it up there in site.

There was blood everywhere. At one point, I looked down on my buckler and it was smeared with blood from God know’s who or what. It became very commonplace for my companions to wash the insides of their helmets to get the blood out, so they could be ready for the next bout.

My dear friend Rudy had his moment in “deep waters”, as three men tried to beat him to his knees. He passed his test, and won the respect of every man at arms there at the cost of a broken shoulder blade, and the muscles literally torn from the bone.

Every time I went out there, I put myself in the hands of the Divine, quite literally. In the last fight, I was beaten unconscious into the dirt for the second time that day. It took much longer for me to wake up the second time. I woke up with a Russian looking at me, smiling, and embracing me as a brother would.

One of us was a hair’s breadth from going to the hospital and having a hole cut in his skull to relieve the pressure.
This has NO PLACE on an SCA battlefield… Period… I never want a requirement for SCA combat to be an up to date Last will and testament.

If you are driven to do this by the Divine, by the rage in you, by your Chivalry, by whatever it is, than use that as fuel, and be tested. For without a doubt, that is what it is.

If all this sounds heavy handed, and melodramatic…… then good. If it makes you stop and think, than it’s done its purpose.
HMB/BoTN rulesets should not be allowed to affect rules of the martial sport of SCA rattan fencing. Now, if it inspires some Future man at arms to seek noble deeds of arms, in whatever context, than THAT is an influence to be wished for.

With Respect and humility
Rob
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Aaron »

Thank you Rob, that was very helpful.

At my heart, I'm a fun fighter. I just fight for fun and I tend to be a goofball. So I'll get a BotN kit together (that will also be a SCA heavy, CotT, C&T and fencing kit) and train with Team USA stateside (where it might a tad less intense) and just show up as a practice partner.

With thanks,

-Aaron
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Aaron »

Robert Downey wrote:In Felix’s first one on one fight, He was fighting a Dane. Felix was doing really well. The fight ended when Felix cut the end of the Dane’s finger off. Later that day, The Dane proudly gave Felix the fingernail from his severed finger as a Martial souvenir, and promised to send him Video of the surgery.
It is amusing that one fighter can give another the finger, and all is good. ;)

This part made me smile.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by arg »

Thank you for that summary Rob. I have been waiting to read such an account, and hope that more are coming from the other participants. To chime in on the original subject matter, i agree with what you are saying. The SCA system is fine. In my household, at our own events where no one is watching, we consent to grappling. Our SCA game has been this way (and has subtly influenced otheres for about a 600 km radius) for years, but we haven't infulenced anything principality or kingdom wide. The rise in MMA popularity likely influences this more. If we want to level up from that there is the EMP. And a different direction if you wish for live steel with reduced impact (WMA style) is available. Let BOTN stand alone as the ultimate cruicible for those willing to test themselves at such risk.

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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Athanaric »

Robert Downey said it best. I agree 100%.

I personally would love to see the SCA get a little (a LITTLE) rougher, that folks relax a little bit on actively trying to bounce folks gear, and that we generally toughen up just a little bit. That being said HMB is it's own thing and the SCA is another. They should not merge.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Lorccan »

I have to say, I found Mr. Downey's account kind of beautiful. It is all the more powerful a caution for that. And, yet, I want to do this even more now than I did before I read it.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Lorccan »

Athanaric wrote:I personally would love to see the SCA get a little (a LITTLE) rougher, that folks relax a little bit on actively trying to bounce folks gear, and that we generally toughen up just a little bit. That being said HMB is it's own thing and the SCA is another. They should not merge.
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot to say this, +1.
Or maybe +10.
Probably +11, because 11 is 1 better, and Athanaric nailed it.
:wink:
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Samuel »

Robert Downey wrote:Gentlemen. I would like to address the question of the Original Poster.

This is purely my opinion, and is not meant as some kind of blanket statement from my Brothers.

Combat with BoTN and HMB style rules, and equipment has no business EVER EVER EVER being a part of the SCA.

1. There is NO WAY to make this “safe” as defined by the general consensus of SCA rattan fencers.
2. The level of violence and rate of injury is vastly past the threshold that is acceptable to the SCA community.
3. There is no viable reason that I can think of to do so. If you are driven to this test, than train for the team.

Here’s the bottom line, my friends. What is not evident in the videos is the overall accepted risk, and the level of pure violence necessary to take that particular list field. I love SCA rattan fencing. At its best, it is an elegant martial sport. When it is used to its potential, it can be a vehicle for self-realization and improvement. But you should never have a decent chance of going home in a puff chair.

It should never be a test of fortitude to the level that HMB style combat is. It just shouldn’t. Frankly, we only need one of those, and it should only be used for those who are driven to do so.

To be honest, if you are thinking you want to do this, just “cause it will be fun”, you really need to stop for a second, and think.

Perhaps a few stories will get across the accepted level of risk I am talking about.

It is the first day. Due to not being able to talk any of the languages, the whole USA team had been standing in armor, in the sun, for three hours. My heart rate had been steady at round 150 bpm for at least one of those hours. I had completely lost the ability to shed heat. We wound up being the sixth fight of the day. We had seen three guys get carried off on backboards already, and shuttled off into the three ambulances they had on rotation. The fight just before ours finished, and they moved one of the ambulances to the entrances of the list. The fourth guy they pulled off wasn’t moving…. At all… They were rushing to shove him in the ambulance so they could get it out of the way for us to take the field. You know those gladiator movies, where they plunge the hook into the dead guy to pull him off the arena? Yeah, that’s what it felt like.

I will never forget the look that passed between Brad and Myself. The reality of it slammed home to all of us. They closed the ambulance doors on the unmoving man at arms, and it was our turn…..

In Felix’s first one on one fight, He was fighting a Dane. Felix was doing really well. The fight ended when Felix cut the end of the Dane’s finger off. Later that day, The Dane proudly gave Felix the fingernail from his severed finger as a Martial souvenir, and promised to send him Video of the surgery.

One of the Belarusians, (I think) had his finger cut off. It was hanging on by a flap of skin and the tendon. They did not want to take him in to the hospital for such a minor injury, as they needed it for the “actual” injuries. They set the bone, and sewed it up there in site.

There was blood everywhere. At one point, I looked down on my buckler and it was smeared with blood from God know’s who or what. It became very commonplace for my companions to wash the insides of their helmets to get the blood out, so they could be ready for the next bout.

My dear friend Rudy had his moment in “deep waters”, as three men tried to beat him to his knees. He passed his test, and won the respect of every man at arms there at the cost of a broken shoulder blade, and the muscles literally torn from the bone.

Every time I went out there, I put myself in the hands of the Divine, quite literally. In the last fight, I was beaten unconscious into the dirt for the second time that day. It took much longer for me to wake up the second time. I woke up with a Russian looking at me, smiling, and embracing me as a brother would.

One of us was a hair’s breadth from going to the hospital and having a hole cut in his skull to relieve the pressure.
This has NO PLACE on an SCA battlefield… Period… I never want a requirement for SCA combat to be an up to date Last will and testament.

If you are driven to do this by the Divine, by the rage in you, by your Chivalry, by whatever it is, than use that as fuel, and be tested. For without a doubt, that is what it is.

If all this sounds heavy handed, and melodramatic…… then good. If it makes you stop and think, than it’s done its purpose.
HMB/BoTN rulesets should not be allowed to affect rules of the martial sport of SCA rattan fencing. Now, if it inspires some Future man at arms to seek noble deeds of arms, in whatever context, than THAT is an influence to be wished for.

With Respect and humility
Rob

THIS^

Guys this is a PERSONAL TEST, and it makes sense for many to want to place themselves in as close a hazard as they can to actual real combat with some degree of a controled outcome, there is an acceptable ( to some) level of personal injury to risk in doing BoTN, those that did it and will do it in the future have accepted that risk for whatever reason. While I can respect those what feel a need to put themselves to this test ,it certainly isnt going to war. ITs about seeking the toughest/baddest/nastiest dog fight in armor one can find and jumping in the yard. One and all that did it and came back, Yup Ive no doubt you know something more of yourselves that you didnt know before OR in the case of those I know have been in "no shit life ending senarios" they saw something I have seen up close and personal before, wouldnt you say Ice? This isnt something done out of national Pride, Our country isnt threatened by polish rebated steel fighters. Its something done to find out more of who you REALLY are in the process of that realisation there is a degree of renown and honor brought to the country you represent. but the bulk of that renown is on you and your teammates who trained/ prepared/ and went off to do it. Uncle sam didnt send you there:D But Sir Sam is damn glad you chose to know yourself better and by your actions and conduct in doing just that you brought honor to your name, in an arena where nasty is acceptable, you politely whipped some asses and made your point. Well Done.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Helias86 »

So.... I watched alll the fights on the live stream, and I lost a lot of sleep over it, so maybe that scued my thoughts and opinions on all of this, but here me out anyway.

The grappling, while I would personally LOVE it, I agree, would be a bad idea. The SCA has some pretty young, up to pretty old people in it, so me, being a decently in shape 25 year old who has grappling experience, who has to fight a 19 year old girl, who is 4'11 well, that just isn't right.

I would really think the shield bashing to the face would be fine. It would require us all to wear closed face helmets, sure, but I think that shield bashing is one of the more savage, fundamental elements of period fighting. This could potentially push people away, but would also attract others I think.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD I WANT TO USE STEEL, NOT A STICK!

I think that our armor should be our armor, and that the conventions of combat, while a great idea, are a bit silly. Especially when it comes to head shots. NO way would a sword ever do significant damage to a helm top. Sides? probably could be done, sure. Face? totally. But the top of the helm? I say no dice.

I think my aforementioned bit about rebated steel is tricky though, as that would make thrusting quite dangerous. HOWEVER, We do sign waivers, and as of now, we in the sca are aware that shit can and does happen. So I don't really see how that would be different. It wouldn't be for everyone, but then again, the SCA isn't for everyone in the first place. Not trying to be eletist whatsoever, I'm just saying that some people like football, and some people like rugby. I do think though, that with steel weapons, we could put on some pretty bad ass demo's. and it would certainly help the stigma surrounding the SCA and the movie "Role Models" and would make people think twice about calling us LARPERS or say" oh, so it's like a renn faire??"

NO YOU SAUCY WENCH, I'M A FOOKIN SWORD FIGHTER! I STAB LARGE BURLY MEN IN THE FACE, NOT HIT CHILDREN WITH PADDED FOAM...THINGIES!

But hey, I'm still just the FNG as far as SCA is concerned. Thanks for watchin' kids. You all have a great night, n sweet dreams.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Antonio »

Helias? Had you considered looking at C&T? You get to use steel, you get to stab people in the face, and you _can_ opt to do it in as much steel as you fancy. Nobody says C&T has to be about 16th century sword combat (I know there are people doing I.33 using it).
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Samuel »

Helias86 wrote:So.... I watched alll the fights on the live stream, and I lost a lot of sleep over it, so maybe that scued my thoughts and opinions on all of this, but here me out anyway.

The grappling, while I would personally LOVE it, I agree, would be a bad idea. The SCA has some pretty young, up to pretty old people in it, so me, being a decently in shape 25 year old who has grappling experience, who has to fight a 19 year old girl, who is 4'11 well, that just isn't right.

I would really think the shield bashing to the face would be fine. It would require us all to wear closed face helmets, sure, but I think that shield bashing is one of the more savage, fundamental elements of period fighting. This could potentially push people away, but would also attract others I think.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD I WANT TO USE STEEL, NOT A STICK!

I think that our armor should be our armor, and that the conventions of combat, while a great idea, are a bit silly. Especially when it comes to head shots. NO way would a sword ever do significant damage to a helm top. Sides? probably could be done, sure. Face? totally. But the top of the helm? I say no dice.

I think my aforementioned bit about rebated steel is tricky though, as that would make thrusting quite dangerous. HOWEVER, We do sign waivers, and as of now, we in the sca are aware that shit can and does happen. So I don't really see how that would be different. It wouldn't be for everyone, but then again, the SCA isn't for everyone in the first place. Not trying to be eletist whatsoever, I'm just saying that some people like football, and some people like rugby. I do think though, that with steel weapons, we could put on some pretty bad ass demo's. and it would certainly help the stigma surrounding the SCA and the movie "Role Models" and would make people think twice about calling us LARPERS or say" oh, so it's like a renn faire??"

NO YOU SAUCY WENCH, I'M A FOOKIN SWORD FIGHTER! I STAB LARGE BURLY MEN IN THE FACE, NOT HIT CHILDREN WITH PADDED FOAM...THINGIES!

But hey, I'm still just the FNG as far as SCA is concerned. Thanks for watchin' kids. You all have a great night, n sweet dreams.

the SCA isnt about period fighting.... its about chivalric Ideal.. think of it in terms of this " a bunch of hippies had a party where they themed it as a Middle earth/ages party, it caught on and became a victorian era mideval themed tournament... you want real combat? enlist.. :D
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Otto von Teich »

While casualties may seem high, considering the ROE and the number of participants, its really not that bad. An occasional severed finger seems par for the course. No one was killed I take it? Any eye injuries? Dang, I wish I was younger..Looks like the difference between SCA and BOTN is like the difference between a Disney ride and the very gates of Valhalla. Those that went will have tales to tell grandchildren, and those tales will likely be passed down for generations to come. By facing mortality, you shall become imortal. Hats off to you guys, I salute thee.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Nissan Maxima »

Some google translated bits...I think the last paragrahy is the best
We are still eagerly look into the "Americans" - a new team and soon brings its own steel from overseas point - I wonder the same! They look terrible. Healthy. All in the same beautiful Cotto. against them - the Poles - the owners of the championship - the team is not as heavy, but it experienced a very strong-willed, athletic. The lists submitted banners. Tribunes are mad, supporting their fighters, but at the same time not forgetting to provide guests with honor and due to the hill (each of which alone cost flights in 2 pieces bucks! Someone threw first duck information that the U.S. government sponsored visit their the national team - but we have conducted their own investigation - it's a lie, the Americans arrived in their blood, toil-earned dollars).

This tactic is still unknown to the U.S. national team. For them, everything here is new. But to the credit of this team, they are very, very quick to learn. And, frankly, from 2.9 (in the set-off has gone 9-0 since left feet would still piled up - the fight was stopped early to avoid trouble) in the first gathering of impressive and puzzling. Americans may in fact prove to be the dark horse for our team, which fights against in the case of an equal number of wins with some of the teams will be decisive.

"As far as the U.S. national team - it was impossible to understand and believe that until recently they have not heard of or never practiced Full Contact , that all their fights were ostentatious, and they did not know happiness "beat people.""

Third and Main - our dry almost a victory in a battle with the Americans - it's a personal achievement for each of the guys that fought for the Russian system. As for Team USA. Well, you know, I've never seen (although many of the ride to the bugurta bugurtu) of such a noble attitude and behavior after a loss. Americans are not upset - they have learned. It was not in the eyes of men, leaving the stadium, nor revenge, nor concealed resentment, anger, such as the Poles, only with a dry analysis of the movement of thought. They thanked us for this invaluable experience, refined something that is not understood. generally behaved quite atypically, is unclear. But the only feeling which arose in this case - is just such a delight relation to their own mistakes and results. I sunk deep into the soul of Jay Brooks phrase: «Next year, baby. Next Year. "- he said it, that just creeps - and suddenly, and learn the truth? fifth in the grid has been fighting a duel in the "Royal nomination"
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Swete »

Somehow, that string of broken English makes that a very powerful quote. ^u^
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Otto von Teich »

Swete wrote:Somehow, that string of broken English makes that a very powerful quote. ^u^
Agreed! Well done guys! I'd say You made a great impression! :D
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by LeeC »

Next year, baby. Next Year.
Heh, I'd have a shiver or two. :twisted:
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Edwin »

I am a nobody in the SCA but I will oppose the inclusion of grappling until I see an adequate training requirement for falling. I was sparring with the senior student in my old judo school; I countered his leg reap, he tried to resist with his weight (300 lbs), instead of technique. That caused him a severe dislocation of IIRC his fibula.

Allowing grappling will cause many more, ans more severe, injuries.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Marco-borromei »

all their fights were ostentatious,
and they did not know happiness "beat people."
Possibly the greatest thing I have read EVER.

It looked like a brutal test, awe inspiring, and slightly beyond what I'd ever want to see the SCA become. I do enjoy our implementation of Cut&thrust, especially practicing it in full harness and armor as worn conventions, and I do think we can go a bit further with steel weapons... but I have no desire to see the BOTN melee style take hold in teh SCA.

More realistic combat with stel weapons and armor, yes.
Rugby with steel weapons in hand, no.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Signo »

Well, I think that what we see at the BOTN could be more similar to those festive and friendly melee of which the chroniclers talk about than actual war.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by edricus »

Robert Downey wrote:Gentlemen. I would like to address the question of the Original Poster.

This is purely my opinion, and is not meant as some kind of blanket statement from my Brothers.

Combat with BoTN and HMB style rules, and equipment has no business EVER EVER EVER being a part of the SCA.

1. There is NO WAY to make this “safe” as defined by the general consensus of SCA rattan fencers.
2. The level of violence and rate of injury is vastly past the threshold that is acceptable to the SCA community.
3. There is no viable reason that I can think of to do so. If you are driven to this test, than train for the team.

Here’s the bottom line, my friends. What is not evident in the videos is the overall accepted risk, and the level of pure violence necessary to take that particular list field. I love SCA rattan fencing. At its best, it is an elegant martial sport. When it is used to its potential, it can be a vehicle for self-realization and improvement. But you should never have a decent chance of going home in a puff chair.

It should never be a test of fortitude to the level that HMB style combat is. It just shouldn’t. Frankly, we only need one of those, and it should only be used for those who are driven to do so.

To be honest, if you are thinking you want to do this, just “cause it will be fun”, you really need to stop for a second, and think.

Perhaps a few stories will get across the accepted level of risk I am talking about.

It is the first day. Due to not being able to talk any of the languages, the whole USA team had been standing in armor, in the sun, for three hours. My heart rate had been steady at round 150 bpm for at least one of those hours. I had completely lost the ability to shed heat. We wound up being the sixth fight of the day. We had seen three guys get carried off on backboards already, and shuttled off into the three ambulances they had on rotation. The fight just before ours finished, and they moved one of the ambulances to the entrances of the list. The fourth guy they pulled off wasn’t moving…. At all… They were rushing to shove him in the ambulance so they could get it out of the way for us to take the field. You know those gladiator movies, where they plunge the hook into the dead guy to pull him off the arena? Yeah, that’s what it felt like.

I will never forget the look that passed between Brad and Myself. The reality of it slammed home to all of us. They closed the ambulance doors on the unmoving man at arms, and it was our turn…..

In Felix’s first one on one fight, He was fighting a Dane. Felix was doing really well. The fight ended when Felix cut the end of the Dane’s finger off. Later that day, The Dane proudly gave Felix the fingernail from his severed finger as a Martial souvenir, and promised to send him Video of the surgery.

One of the Belarusians, (I think) had his finger cut off. It was hanging on by a flap of skin and the tendon. They did not want to take him in to the hospital for such a minor injury, as they needed it for the “actual” injuries. They set the bone, and sewed it up there in site.

There was blood everywhere. At one point, I looked down on my buckler and it was smeared with blood from God know’s who or what. It became very commonplace for my companions to wash the insides of their helmets to get the blood out, so they could be ready for the next bout.

My dear friend Rudy had his moment in “deep waters”, as three men tried to beat him to his knees. He passed his test, and won the respect of every man at arms there at the cost of a broken shoulder blade, and the muscles literally torn from the bone.

Every time I went out there, I put myself in the hands of the Divine, quite literally. In the last fight, I was beaten unconscious into the dirt for the second time that day. It took much longer for me to wake up the second time. I woke up with a Russian looking at me, smiling, and embracing me as a brother would.

One of us was a hair’s breadth from going to the hospital and having a hole cut in his skull to relieve the pressure.
This has NO PLACE on an SCA battlefield… Period… I never want a requirement for SCA combat to be an up to date Last will and testament.

If you are driven to do this by the Divine, by the rage in you, by your Chivalry, by whatever it is, than use that as fuel, and be tested. For without a doubt, that is what it is.

If all this sounds heavy handed, and melodramatic…… then good. If it makes you stop and think, than it’s done its purpose.
HMB/BoTN rulesets should not be allowed to affect rules of the martial sport of SCA rattan fencing. Now, if it inspires some Future man at arms to seek noble deeds of arms, in whatever context, than THAT is an influence to be wished for.

With Respect and humility
Rob

Thank you for your post and insight.
/ Edricus
Fight like a unit
Die like a unit
Win like a unit

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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Kilkenny »

Helias86 wrote:So.... I watched alll the fights on the live stream, and I lost a lot of sleep over it, so maybe that scued my thoughts and opinions on all of this, but here me out anyway.

The grappling, while I would personally LOVE it, I agree, would be a bad idea. The SCA has some pretty young, up to pretty old people in it, so me, being a decently in shape 25 year old who has grappling experience, who has to fight a 19 year old girl, who is 4'11 well, that just isn't right.

I would really think the shield bashing to the face would be fine. It would require us all to wear closed face helmets, sure, but I think that shield bashing is one of the more savage, fundamental elements of period fighting. This could potentially push people away, but would also attract others I think.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD I WANT TO USE STEEL, NOT A STICK!

I think that our armor should be our armor, and that the conventions of combat, while a great idea, are a bit silly. Especially when it comes to head shots. NO way would a sword ever do significant damage to a helm top. Sides? probably could be done, sure. Face? totally. But the top of the helm? I say no dice.

I think my aforementioned bit about rebated steel is tricky though, as that would make thrusting quite dangerous. HOWEVER, We do sign waivers, and as of now, we in the sca are aware that shit can and does happen. So I don't really see how that would be different. It wouldn't be for everyone, but then again, the SCA isn't for everyone in the first place. Not trying to be eletist whatsoever, I'm just saying that some people like football, and some people like rugby. I do think though, that with steel weapons, we could put on some pretty bad ass demo's. and it would certainly help the stigma surrounding the SCA and the movie "Role Models" and would make people think twice about calling us LARPERS or say" oh, so it's like a renn faire??"

NO YOU SAUCY WENCH, I'M A FOOKIN SWORD FIGHTER! I STAB LARGE BURLY MEN IN THE FACE, NOT HIT CHILDREN WITH PADDED FOAM...THINGIES!

But hey, I'm still just the FNG as far as SCA is concerned. Thanks for watchin' kids. You all have a great night, n sweet dreams.
Dude, go some place where they do what you want to do, instead of trying to change the4 SCA game of 40 plus years to be something it was never meant to be.

You don't know what a waiver means, clearly. Most of the people currently fighting SCA heavy would not keep doing it, would certainly not sign waivers (fror what they're worth) were the game to change into what you want to see.

Want to do BotN? Then get over there with the people doing that and have a great time. Really. Enjoy the hell out pof what you want to do - without destroying an already existing game loved by tens of thousands of people.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Nissan Maxima »

Robert Downey wrote:Gentlemen. I would like to address the question of the Original Poster.

This is purely my opinion, and is not meant as some kind of blanket statement from my Brothers.

Combat with BoTN and HMB style rules, and equipment has no business EVER EVER EVER being a part of the SCA.

1. There is NO WAY to make this “safe” as defined by the general consensus of SCA rattan fencers.
2. The level of violence and rate of injury is vastly past the threshold that is acceptable to the SCA community.
3. There is no viable reason that I can think of to do so. If you are driven to this test, than train for the team.

Here’s the bottom line, my friends. What is not evident in the videos is the overall accepted risk, and the level of pure violence necessary to take that particular list field. I love SCA rattan fencing. At its best, it is an elegant martial sport. When it is used to its potential, it can be a vehicle for self-realization and improvement. But you should never have a decent chance of going home in a puff chair.

It should never be a test of fortitude to the level that HMB style combat is. It just shouldn’t. Frankly, we only need one of those, and it should only be used for those who are driven to do so.

To be honest, if you are thinking you want to do this, just “cause it will be fun”, you really need to stop for a second, and think.

Perhaps a few stories will get across the accepted level of risk I am talking about.

It is the first day. Due to not being able to talk any of the languages, the whole USA team had been standing in armor, in the sun, for three hours. My heart rate had been steady at round 150 bpm for at least one of those hours. I had completely lost the ability to shed heat. We wound up being the sixth fight of the day. We had seen three guys get carried off on backboards already, and shuttled off into the three ambulances they had on rotation. The fight just before ours finished, and they moved one of the ambulances to the entrances of the list. The fourth guy they pulled off wasn’t moving…. At all… They were rushing to shove him in the ambulance so they could get it out of the way for us to take the field. You know those gladiator movies, where they plunge the hook into the dead guy to pull him off the arena? Yeah, that’s what it felt like.

I will never forget the look that passed between Brad and Myself. The reality of it slammed home to all of us. They closed the ambulance doors on the unmoving man at arms, and it was our turn…..

In Felix’s first one on one fight, He was fighting a Dane. Felix was doing really well. The fight ended when Felix cut the end of the Dane’s finger off. Later that day, The Dane proudly gave Felix the fingernail from his severed finger as a Martial souvenir, and promised to send him Video of the surgery.

One of the Belarusians, (I think) had his finger cut off. It was hanging on by a flap of skin and the tendon. They did not want to take him in to the hospital for such a minor injury, as they needed it for the “actual” injuries. They set the bone, and sewed it up there in site.

There was blood everywhere. At one point, I looked down on my buckler and it was smeared with blood from God know’s who or what. It became very commonplace for my companions to wash the insides of their helmets to get the blood out, so they could be ready for the next bout.

My dear friend Rudy had his moment in “deep waters”, as three men tried to beat him to his knees. He passed his test, and won the respect of every man at arms there at the cost of a broken shoulder blade, and the muscles literally torn from the bone.

Every time I went out there, I put myself in the hands of the Divine, quite literally. In the last fight, I was beaten unconscious into the dirt for the second time that day. It took much longer for me to wake up the second time. I woke up with a Russian looking at me, smiling, and embracing me as a brother would.

One of us was a hair’s breadth from going to the hospital and having a hole cut in his skull to relieve the pressure.
This has NO PLACE on an SCA battlefield… Period… I never want a requirement for SCA combat to be an up to date Last will and testament.

If you are driven to do this by the Divine, by the rage in you, by your Chivalry, by whatever it is, than use that as fuel, and be tested. For without a doubt, that is what it is.

If all this sounds heavy handed, and melodramatic…… then good. If it makes you stop and think, than it’s done its purpose.
HMB/BoTN rulesets should not be allowed to affect rules of the martial sport of SCA rattan fencing. Now, if it inspires some Future man at arms to seek noble deeds of arms, in whatever context, than THAT is an influence to be wished for.

With Respect and humility
Rob

This is a Russian fighter's response to Rob's post:

Translated from the Russian, Dmitriy Ryaboy

Good afternoon. My name is Rob, I am writing from beyond the grave, as I was cruelly murdered at the Battle of the Nations. I cannot quietly look on as people are being tricked with invitations to come have a great time. In truth, that's all a lie. It's all blood, death, and spilled guts over there.

They held us there for 20 hours under the hot sun. When we tried to talk to one of the organizers, he just spat me in the face and hit me in the leg with his marshall's staff. Instead of helping, he brought some dry firewood and started a fire next to us, so that we would be even hotter. But the worst was still to come.

From the tournament field we head screams of death and people begging for help. At first we thought it was playacting, but when a cut off head rolled to my feet, I started feeling nauseous. As we approached the tournament it became clear that something terrible was going to happen. There were so many injured, the local government set up a field hospital. Those who could still scream were carried into tents where they were cut up by nazi surgeons, while those who stopped moving were pulled off with hooks
and dumped into a pile. I saw a raven picking out the eyes of one of the victims. I caught my captain's gaze, and saw sheer terror. Crossing ourselves, we entered the arena. We understood that we will not return alive.

THe arena was covered in blood, guts, and shit. Poles who fought before us completely lost their humanity. They performed wild pagan ritual dances, painted each other with blood of fallen enemies, and howled. The danes who entered the arena to fight us were serious. We knew this when one of them cut off his finger and threw it at our captain. The command "FIGHT" sounded and we rushed at each other like wild enemies.

We tore each other into pieces, cut, raked, smashed, sawed, and sometimes broke off little pieces or sliced each other. I was being beat up by ten Danes, but I held until until the last. Hard hits kept coming, the pain was unbearable. At some point I lost consciousness, and the blessing of death came to me.

Falling on the ground, I saw the fight from the side. Here, our team captain's arm is cut off, but it's still hanging on by strips of sinews, skin, and flesh. It interfered with his fighting, so he bit it off with his teeth. He lost his sword, so he grabbed his cut off arm and used it to batter down his opponent.

Here, Martin pulled out a sword that was thrust through him, and cut off the leg of the Danish captain.

Here, Jim took off his helmet and is finishing off a fallen fighter -- from his own team.

There, Smitty is waving his giant two-handed sword. Around him are three Danes, two judges, and one audience member, all cut in halves. There are also several wounded, but living opponents, who are trying to reach him with their halberds. They are unsuccessful, so they yell filthy curses and spit at him.

And there is Michael. He's completely lost it from the blood and yelling. Having lost hist sanity, he is simply standing there on all fours, and howling.

Moans and screams were everywhere. I saw someone in the audience cutting off his ears just so he wouldn't have to hear the yelling. Finally, the long-awaited command "STOP FIGHT" sounded, and everything was over.

Those who could walk, hobbled towards the camp. Many took off their helmets and poured blood out of them. There was blood everywhere. There was so much of it, the organizers were handing out inflatable boats to all the participants, it was the only way to get to camp. Rowing along the river of blood we watched bodies of our fallen mates floating past us. Some were so mangled they were impossible to recognize.

In the evening one of the Danes came to our camp and gave our team's captain his brother's head, as a token from battle.

That's how it was at the Battle of the Nations. It's Hell. Never go there. All you will find there is pain, blood, and death.
I am the SCA's middle finger.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Count Johnathan »

That is classic.

Will the BOTN change the SCA game? No but it will surely change those who put themselves to the hazard of steel on a world stage wearing the colors of their country.

Perhaps someday I will go but I have my doubts about it. It looks like something I was born and raised to do. I have no fear of it. I am envious of those who went with the team USA for the first time. I am jealous that while I already wear the red white and blue I was unable to step onto that field and show the world what my father and brothers have trained me to do since I was a small boy. I was driven nearly insane watching my friends blindsided by foes that I could do nothing to stop. It looks like what I dreamed about for decades. To have the concern of my opponents accepting a blow removed. To have the contest pure and hard as a real fight should be. It looks like something I was supposed to do, 15 years ago. Before I had a young family that depends on me to be healthy and here to provide for them. If I were to go it would be a selfish thing and perhaps a bit irresponsible. I am not beyond such a contest in terms of my age but I am in a different place now then when I was younger, without responsibility and full of fire.

Nissan I am glad for you that after all these years you were able to have that contest. I am proud of all the members of team USA who went to Poland and changed a small part of the world. You guys made something happen that nobody could have anticpated. Your courage, your honor and your chivalry changed their game. We watched it live. We saw in a very short time nervous tension before bouts turn into salutes and handshakes. We saw a cold war "enemy" standing together at the side of a field with respect in their eyes for you guys. We heard them shouting together "USA! USA! USA!"

Presidents did not do this. Politicians did not do this. International diplomatic policies did not do this.

You did this.
Team USA, I salute you!

Thank you.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Xager »

Hi. I am the one who wrote a funny article on Rob's article. I hope you realize that it was a harmless joke. Rob Just so dramatically described by all that I could not resist. I do not know where Rob saw all these bloody horrors of severed fingers and half-dead people. Everyone who was at the Battle of Nations did not remember such a gory details. In any case, wanted to clarify, and that you are so serious about Rob's article that I have any doubt about the correct understanding of my joke and all this story. With this article I have in no way wanted to offend anyone. By the way, I'm not a fighter, and has long not in reconstruction (sorry for bad english). Now I just sarcastic fan (google translate "болельщик" like cheerleader :) - where is my pompons).

My joke does not reflect the views of Russian, or any team of fighters. By the way, everyone who was at the Battle of Nations, very warmly of you responded, as well as a team of Quebec and Israel. It was great to see you there. I hope next year you will be again.
Sorry for bad english.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Nissan Maxima »

Xager,
Welcome to the archive.Your article is hilarious. It made my week.

It was a pleasure to be at the battle of nations. By the way, I managed to come home without a severed head. I did have a hell of a hangover one day though. Beheading seemed like a good idea at that point.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by DukeAvery »

I could see rattan death-from-behind rules being modified to reflect the canonical methods of BoN knock-down. I am interested in the best video of the fighting and willing to pay a reasonable price to do so. I am interested in the specific methods used.

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Avery
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Xager »

Nissan Maxima wrote:I did have a hell of a hangover one day though. Beheading seemed like a good idea at that point.
:) It is familiar to me.
DukeAvery wrote:I am interested in the best video of the fighting and willing to pay a reasonable price to do so.
On official site i seen offer to buy some videos - http://www.battleofthenations.com.ua/dvd.php.

But they only sell the old materials (2010 year). Try to talk to them, maybe they have new videos.

Also. Perhaps the Poles have some videos - http://battleofthenations.pl
Sorry for bad english.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Bulby37 »

Nyet polski
Edric the Bastard wrote:Next thing you know they'll be beating off offenders with sticks or something.
Padraig O wrote:I'd rank the idea somewhere on the same level as "Jerry Sandusky, Boy-f*cker: the Musical".
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Cailin »

DukeAvery wrote:I could see rattan death-from-behind rules being modified to reflect the canonical methods of BoN knock-down.
Could you please elaborate?
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by DukeAvery »

@Xager - thanks for the information. Welcome to the site.

@Cailin - Sure! I haven't watched many of the youtube videos but the ones I have watched show an interesting problem (among many) in that how do you knock someone over without going to the ground yourself? When we look closely at the video we are sure to find specific techniques that work. For example (perhaps) moving up to someone's side and hip-checking them is effective. Or perhaps with a pole-arm there are legal techniques that involve tripping someone backwards etc. You could then only allow those moves in a new SCA fighting convention (that is used in specific venues) that simulates these moves. DFB was designed to simulate basically stepping up behind someone and stabbing them or hacking them down. You even safely go to the point of requiring a shift in momentum but not a knock down (which is where the injuries are usually generated).

Just some ideas conversationally meant.

Regards

Avery
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by rhys »

I can't believe I just read all six pages of this......any way, the topic ran away a whole lot of times like my beagle when he smells a squirrel...takes me 30 minutes to get hi8m back on task..(Pooping so I can go back home)

to the Original poster... I think people will be trying to "do" some of the things that happened while we all sat and watched.....will the SCA change I sure hope not, it is what it is and it should remain as such..

Said Ibn -Ali
"So without knowing the whole story it would be appreciated if you added something constructive to the discussion instead of your opinion on one persons action. "

you didn't give the "whole story" I would have yanked you card given what you said... and IF the day was as bad as you say later... there would have been a very empty list field I would have tossed everrybody off or just called the tourney until the fighters could control themselves. and I get the PTSD thing...you know what...when my PTSD rears its ugly head I do one of two things.... I don't fight in tourneys...(or I drop out if it is gonna make me do something STUPID, or I calm myself down before I do something STUPID.... and yeah I have had PTSD since before I got out of the military (89-96)...
you should write the whole story next time.. or you can write half the story and get pyle drived like you did this time about pulling your card... folks judged by what you wrote....

glad your under control now... took the birth of my daughter in 06 to make me realize that I had a problem.. and now I ain't saying it's better but it is easier to live with....

peace brother

Rhys
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Athanaric »

Xager,

Wonderful article, we all got a good laugh out of it and understood it was all in good fun.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Eltz-Kempenich »

"Dude, go some place where they do what you want to do, instead of trying to change the4 SCA game of 40 plus years to be something it was never meant to be."

Wait, what? You got that all wrong. Everyone has the right to jockey for their own position, in any circumstance, for whatever reason. There is nothing that says that the SCA status quo cannot nor should not change. In fact, to continue to thrive, it must needs change in some regards. The SCA will be whatever we want it to be, and if the winds blow in the direction of more intense combat, so be it.

All of this has me really thinking I need to write a paper on BotN combat and the insights it has shed on actual medieval warfare. I think the similarities have been vastly underrated by some members on the Archive. The biggest point being that your weapons aren't going to kill a guy in armour. Stun him, knock him out, sure. But if you want your opponent dead, you incapacitate him by knocking him over and stabbing him in the face. There is a lot of good ethnographic data to wade through and start making sense of. From that historical perspective, we can perhaps begin to reevaluate what it is we want SCA combat to be about as well.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by PatternWeld »

Change comes but slowly to the SCA.

I can remember when playing with a fencing blade on the side, would get you banned from fighter practice.

I can remember when 90+% of the guys didn't want women in combat.

There are many many more examples. We as a society tend to cling tightly to our traditions right or wrong. Change is inevitable but it will only happen but slowly, in measured steps, or not at all.
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Re: Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

Post by Antonio »

What, we're allowed to play with fencing blades now? ;)
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