Concussions and CTE

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Lloyd
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Lloyd »

robstout wrote:A PSA-

UW Sports Medicine does IMPACT testing, where they take a baseline reading of your mental functions (memory, reaction time, etc). That way, if you are injured, they have something to compare the injured readings to. Of course, most people here are not in the Madison WI area, but it may be worth checking your local health providers for the equivalent.

Robert The Stout

I have spoken with them - I am too far gone unfortunately. However, my daughter figure skates and we had her baseline tested about 5 years ago. She has had one confirmed and one possible concussion from skating so we are definitely being proactive (ya know, you learn from experience)
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Lloyd »

Addressing the Long-Term Impact of Concussion in Living Patients

Long Term Impact
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Re: Concussions and CTE

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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Aaron »

Good Afternoon,

I'm watching the movie Concussion that stars Will Smith. Wow. I know Will Smith isn't known for intellectually deep rolls, but this was definitely an amazing roll for him to play and he did it well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussion_(2015_film)

Given that they are basically shutting down the NFL and America's favorite sport, it is understandable that the box office was meager. This is basically like a movie that definitely links drinking beer to erectile dysfunction, and they are showing it at Oktoberfest in Germany. They can't win.

The movie itself is quite the medical thriller, and for someone who plays a game where people hit me in the head a lot...somewhat scary. I've only had two reasonably minor brown outs in the SCA (two years apart) and I've NEVER played football before. So I personally feel safe.

But I'm more determined now to fence, and take up SCA spear (only weapon) with an amazingly well built and padded jingasa. This is a rather scary movie so far.

The acting is quite good to, and while I recognize the cameo rolls the actors hold their own and the cameos don't detract from their acting or the story.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Aaron »

And now there is research that small hits can cause this problem too.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EdyLK0ZqFks
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Johann ColdIron »

Life is fatal. Real question is how much fun do you want to have and at what cost? There is risk everywhere. Fencing has had concussions. You can get them slipping on black ice ,too.

I've been doing this long enough that I am not going put it aside now. Not fighting has its consequences too. Being out of shape and grumpy is no way to go through life. ;)

Just have to be sure to use the best equipment possible and use discretion on how hard to push yourself and your opponents.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Paladin74 »

I took this as more of a PSA (thanks Lloyd) - no one's saying not to go out and live your life, just that you should be aware that certain symptoms can mean you may have had or just had a CTE. Be aware, folks- but continue to live. You only get the one chance at it (unless you believe in reincarnation, which is cool if that's the case but what do I know).
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Diglach Mac Cein »

Well, two weeks ago my fighting career was ended due to the effects of concussions.

Now, to be clear - I played a LOT of impact sports beyond SCA. So it isn't just SCA that caused it. But is was a factor.

My doctor was VERY clear. symptoms I have (severe aphasia - my speech has degraded to the point where I am beginning to rely on ASL with my family, and may end up needing to use a type to speech on a tablet, or write out conversations - memory issues, some vertigo, tremors in my hands, I drop things, negative impact on my bi-polar disorder, etc.) will likely continue to get worse. Continuing to fight would make that a certainty, and accelerate the process. I would also probably develop more problems.

He started testing me for this 5 years ago, and tested every year to monitor it. He is a sports specialist - working as a team physician for Ohio State football, rugby, hockey and wrestling teams. He is also the doctor for NFL, NHL, and MMA athletes. So he knows what he is talking about. He also brought in a neurologist who works with sports injuries.

I told him I wanted to fight as long as I could safely do so. And I hid or minimized most of the effect for as long as I could - before I always assumed it was just "me".

I wore a heavy helm, padded with military spec anti-concussion / impact pads - a double set, with brow pad. But I also played "hurt" - a lot. I was the guy who got knocked backward with a face thrust and banged my head against a tree hard enough to brown out, finish the battle then go to camp and take asprin - and fight the next day with a headache.

I now forbid my squires from using any padding other than that specifically made for impact sports, or a proper period lining.,


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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Thorsteinn Raudskeggr »

So this is something I've hidden for a while.

Something very very bad happened to my family because of that work-related MTBI & Injury-induced Hypothyroidism in 2013. While in recovery from my head injury & suffering from should-have-been-diagnosed hypothyroidism, and for some damned unknown reason, everyone thought it would be a great idea for me to be the primary caretaker of my newborn daughter. It didn't go well. She got hurt & permanently removed from our custody, I was arrested, I plead guilty to a felony and entered 1 year of Mental Health Court rather than take my chances with 2-12 years in prison and a jury that will dislike a brain damaged Aspie.

Due to piss poor medical help & community help, including from the SCA-

1- We lost custody of our daughter permanently.
2- I am now a convicted felon, though I hope that I can get it wiped from the record due to successfully completing a diversion court and showing I've kept up on what little I can do medically.
3- I was banished from the SCA until things are more settled.
4- My Dysgraphia, and several parts of my Aspergers Syndrome, have worsened.

This can happen to me, this can happen to you. The consequences of not treating a head trauma correctly can hurt you 6 months later, just as it did me. And those consequences can be life altering.

We can do better. We must do better.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Christophe de Frisselle »

Interestingly, this came up on one of my Social Media feeds yesterday.

http://www.ted.com/talks/david_camarill ... what_might?

Now it has me wondering what kind of damage shockwaves can cause to the brain.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Kormak »

So, I am looking to supplement my helm padding.Been having low grade headaches, some slight fog, lol, managed to pop my jaw out of alignment with the last super solid blow I took.

What would be the best option, I currently have military pads with a windrose strap system, and a brow pad.. Helm weighs in at about 12 lbs. Unequal pads ? Maybe something else ?
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Amanda M »

How old are the pads? How stiff are they? I had the same problem, same chinstrap just different foam until I added a quilted liner against my head. It wasn't even really thick, maybe started out a half inch then compressed down.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by boris_ »

I saw this Popular mechanics bit on a girl who built a concussion lab for testing helmets in her garage. Has anyone considered setting one up or taking SCA helmets and padding down to one?

I also just found a Virginia Tech helmet rating site and sent the contact an email about the possibility of testing our stuff.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Kormak »

Amanda M wrote:How old are the pads? How stiff are they? I had the same problem, same chinstrap just different foam until I added a quilted liner against my head. It wasn't even really thick, maybe started out a half inch then compressed down.

Well the pads are new, the 3/8 pads from OregonAero, brow pad is the same.. They are all new, having been fought in about 4 or 5 times since I replaced the old blue foam. I will give that a shot, regarding the liner. Every little helps right ??
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Dante di Pietro »

Relevant to the interests of those concerned about TBI:

http://www.weeklywarfare.net/?p=3554

Edited to add: the author is a doctor of neurobiology who did a lot of his post-grad work on concussions.

One item that's especially noteworthy: padding does not protect your brain from acceleration to any meaningful degree.

The 5 part series is focusing on rapier, but the section I linked is specifically devoted to armoring.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Amanda M »

Kormak wrote:So, I am looking to supplement my helm padding.Been having low grade headaches, some slight fog, lol, managed to pop my jaw out of alignment with the last super solid blow I took.

What would be the best option, I currently have military pads with a windrose strap system, and a brow pad.. Helm weighs in at about 12 lbs. Unequal pads ? Maybe something else ?
With good foam and a sewn in liner in my helm I didn't even notice head shots at the Kearney HMB Classic, even though my helm was getting dented. I found a bunch of new dings and small creases after I was home. I firmly believe the combination of the heavy helmet (12g stainless) plus the combo of good chin strap/sewn in liner/quality foam made all the difference.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by boris_ »

Dante di Pietro wrote:Relevant to the interests of those concerned about TBI:

http://www.weeklywarfare.net/?p=3554

Edited to add: the author is a doctor of neurobiology who did a lot of his post-grad work on concussions.

One item that's especially noteworthy: padding does not protect your brain from acceleration to any meaningful degree.

The 5 part series is focusing on rapier, but the section I linked is specifically devoted to armoring.
I sent this to an engineer friend of mine to check the physics, something smells fishy to me.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by John S. »

I am a physicist and after my initial read through of this publication, something seems also seems off to me. At the very least, his strategies for explaining his conclusions feel off. He may be a respected researcher, but medical audiences don't always have a good grasp of mechanics.

Finishing end-of-semester grades and writing my dissertation have to take priority, but I may make time to look at this article more thoroughly over the holidays.

Boris, I'm interested in any input from your engineer friend.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by rameymj »

Yeah, padding spreads the impact over time. So while the energy in the blow is not reduced (nor the total force) the head acceleration is reduced, 1) because the neck muscles have more time to produce counter-force, and 2) the peak force is reduced. Would a cue ball move the same if you put a piece if foam on the tip?

Active mitigation (neck muscles, dodging, glancing) is by far the best anti-concussion mechanisms, but I'm not convinced the other methods don't help. Interesting article though.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by boris_ »

John S. wrote:I am a physicist and after my initial read through of this publication, something seems also seems off to me. At the very least, his strategies for explaining his conclusions feel off. He may be a respected researcher, but medical audiences don't always have a good grasp of mechanics.

Finishing end-of-semester grades and writing my dissertation have to take priority, but I may make time to look at this article more thoroughly over the holidays.

Boris, I'm interested in any input from your engineer friend.
I will give more details later when I have a chance to have that conversation, but he confirmed that the physics seemed off.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Dante di Pietro »

Anyone actually find any errors?
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by rameymj »

Dante di Pietro wrote:Anyone actually find any errors?
While his calculations don't seem to be off, but I'm not convinced the equations used are correct. I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I've haven't dealt with inertia calculations in 30 years. So his calculations of 85lbs and 24lbs don't mean much to me except that 85/24=3.5 or the head will experience 3.5 times more acceleration without a helm than with it. His padding calculations completely ignore time. Since padding distributes force over time, it's a great omission.

=======

"...Instead, we are almost exclusively dealing with concussions that result from diffuse axonal injury.
{pic here Image from: http://www.neuroscientificallychallenge ... sary/axon/}
Diffuse axonal injury is mainly the result of rotational acceleration of the head because this kind of motion creates shearing forces that cut and damage axons throughout the brain. ... any attempt to protect ourselves from concussions must prevent rotational acceleration of the head."

Technically to protect the brain, we need to reduce the rotational acceleration of the head {not prevent rotation} to a below the threshold where shearing forces become dangerous*. This is important as the author tends to swap ideas about energy/momentum and force within his discussion. For example, if the head is accelerated just above the shearing threshold, doubling the mass of the head will reduce the acceleration by about half, or below the threshold of damage.
* technically the acceleration would have to be applied over a long enough period of time for parts of the axon would move enough for the shearing forces to take effect, but this is a minor point.

Using the law of conservation of momentum "the total momentum of the two objects before the collision is equal to the total momentum of the two objects after the collision". For inelastic collisions, the accelerations & forces can be high; this is pool balls colliding situation. When elastic collisions are involved the force must be summed over time, and this is calculus.

As a practical example, we know that F = ma (force equals mass times acceleration). And v=at (velocity equals acceleration times time). These assume that force is constant; therefore acceleration is constant. So to reach 60 mph, you can either floor it, and experience a lot of acceleration or just touch the gas, and slowly accelerate up to 60mph. {well my wife can slowly accelerate up to speed while I fidget}

In other words, substituting v=(F/m)t So for a car to reach 60 mph, and mass doesn't change, Ft must be a constant, or if F is halved, it must be applied for twice as long. Padding changes from the first (relatively inelastic collision/high force/high acceleration) to the second (more elastic collision; lower force, etc). Time becomes very important in these calculations.

Another way to look at it is, if I take a race car with an engine, I can get high accelerations. If I load it up with sand bags (increase mass) it will accelerate slower with the same engine. I can still get a high velocity* eventually, but not the high accelerations.
* although top speed is also reduced

So to absorb the energy in a moving weapon, the time it takes to transfer that energy is important. Without examining this in time domain, you cannot calculate the shearing forces on the axons.

=======

So lets look at two situations, one without a helm and with a helm, looking immediately before and after impact. Let's ignore the elastic collision caused by the bending of the rattan, compression of skin, etc. Since the times are so close together, we can assume that motion is linear {not rotational} and unaffected by the centripetal force exerted by the neck. Let's also assume that just after impact, the weapon and head move at the same speed (technically this isn't a necessary or correct assumption, but it's close enough for analysis outside the time domain).

Without a helm: mv1 + M0 = (m+M)v2 -- conservation of momentum
where m=mass weapon, M=mass head, v1=velocity weapon, v2=velocity (weapon and head), M's initial velocity is zero.
The head (M) experiences an acceleration to get up to v2

With a helm: mv1 + (H+M)0 = (m+H+M)v3 where H=mass helm; H+M initial velocity is zero
Since mv1 is the same, (m+M)v2 = (m+H+M)v3
(m+M) < (m+H+M) v2 must be greater than v3
The head (M) experiences less acceleration to get up to a lower speed v3

More specifically, if H = (m+M), then (m+M)v2 => Hv2; (m+H+M)v3 => (H+H)v3 or 2Hv3
then Hv2 = 2Hv3 or v2 = 2*v3 or v2 is twice v3; the head accelerated to half the speed because of the increased mass. Assuming the energy transfer happened over the same time period (a bad assumption, but using inelastic collisions), the head would experience half the acceleration. Lower accelerations means less damage/concussions.

Intuitively we know this because heavier helms require a different blow calibration than lighter helms.

This is only an analogy as we're ignoring the time domain analysis, but the overall effects are similar. Adding mass decreases acceleration, which decreases the shearing forces/concussions.

=====

Padding:

Hopefully by now you agree that force over time is more important than inelastic collision force calculations he used. So we need to look what happens over time.

The weapon hits the helm, and we'll assume an inelastic collision (or instant acceleration of the helm). So if the helm weighs 3 times the weapon, the weapon speed is reduced to one quarter of what it was. Conservation of momentum {wv1 = (w+3w)v2 or wv1=4wv2 or (wv1)/4w=v2 or v1/4=v2} So the mass of the helm has slower the overall speed.

As the weapon and helm start to move into the padding, a small force is created. {IIRC the force increases linearly with compression, or it takes twice the force to compress twice the distance ... at least initially.} Anyway only a small counter force from the head is needed for that fraction of time. This small force starts small acceleration of the head, and the padding is compressed a little bit. An equivalent counter force slows the weapon/helm a small bit.

The next fraction or time, the head is moving away from the padding (at a small velocity), but the weapon/head is moving faster. So the padding compresses more, but not twice as much because the head is moving away. So a greater force is generated, but not a great force. Since the force is lower, the acceleration is lower with less chance of a concussion. The head accelerates some more, and the weapon/helm slows some more.

This cycle repeats until the weapon speed equals the head speed.

To visualize this, imagine five square blocks stacked vertically. The height is the force, and the width is time. The force is 5 units applied over 1 unit of time. The instantaneous acceleration of the unpadded head is proportional to the force, or 5 units of acceleration.

<greatly oversimplified> Padding spreads the force over time (as described above). We can tip the five blocks over, so 1 unit of force is applied over 5 units of time. Since acceleration is proportional to force, the head accelerates at 1 unit, or one fifth the unpadded rate. -- five units is just used as a representation. Technically, the force will vary over time, not be constant. The force function would have to be integrated over time for momentum.

=====

Newton's first law: a body in motion will remain in motion ...

So if the head is accelerated, why doesn't it stay in motion? Where does the energy go?

The neck muscles (and some other muscles technically) exert a counter force. Muscles "absorb" the energy (technically the chemical energy in the muscles is converted into kinetic energy counter to the weapon direction). Helm mass and padding reduce the velocities give the muscles more time to react and REDUCE movement/accelerations/shearing forces/concussions. ###this is also why blindside hits are more dangerous###

So if your muscles are able to generate sufficient force at the correct time {and nothing rips}, your head wouldn't move ... no motion means no acceleration ... no acceleration means no shearing forces in the axons or no concussions. Do your neck strengthening exercises.

======

So who wants to make a bunch of assumptions about rates and write up the integrals?

Notes:
elastic (inelastic) collision is used as a collision that stores (does not store) energy within the components which is released over time
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by rameymj »

Rereading the comments in the link clarified his assertions for me, and I agree with him that our helms are not complete protection from concussions and CTE. I also agree that "Based on the current state of CTE research, I don’t expect that SCA combat poses a huge risk, but I expect that there may be a number of fighters who are at risk or for whom SCA combat may be the “straw that broke the camel’s back” so to speak." Hence my couching everything in reducing accelerations/concussions. Data proves that we can create sufficient force/acceleration to cause them, so I tend to agree with him overall.

Given that it takes many years of cumulative punishment in high impact sports to create CTE; throwing body weighs into head traumas; I think we need much more research to quantify what creates CTE.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Tibbie Croser »

Thank you, Rameymj. It's also worth noting that Lord Gawin Kappler's series on concussions was intended at least in part as an argument against ramping up calibration in Cut and Thrust. It's possible that his arguments hold better for steel than for rattan.

I fear there's still an implication that a smaller fighter, with less body mass or a thinner, longer neck, will still be at much greater risk for concussion and CTE than a big, burly person, even with a heavy helm and high-quality padding.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Dante di Pietro »

Tibbie Croser wrote:I fear there's still an implication that a smaller fighter, with less body mass or a thinner, longer neck, will still be at much greater risk for concussion and CTE than a big, burly person, even with a heavy helm and high-quality padding.
There's nothing implied about this at all. This is a fact I think anyone would agree with, without hesitation.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Ken Mondschein »

Fascinating discussion, guys.

I can ill-afford CTE with my job, but I've been taking many head hits lately teaching longsword and sabre.

I suppose this is why jousting helms are so heavy... and strapped down. I have taken a few really hard hits jousting, and many ricochet into my face. Thankfully, I have a period suspension liner on my great bascinet, and it's strapped down to my cuirass. Probably the way to go to avoid these problems.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by boris_ »

Tibbie Croser wrote:Thank you, Rameymj. It's also worth noting that Lord Gawin Kappler's series on concussions was intended at least in part as an argument against ramping up calibration in Cut and Thrust.
As a cut and thrust fighter, I agree with his goal (if we get BoTN light, lets get it with another ruleset). I do think that his publishing that is *shockingly* irresponsible. He speaks with faux authority on a topic he seems to not understand and muddies it up with equations that serve only to confuse the issue.

and the goal for all of this? To convince people that better padding and helmets don't help with concussions.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Dante di Pietro »

boris_ wrote: I do think that his publishing that is *shockingly* irresponsible. He speaks with faux authority on a topic he seems to not understand and muddies it up with equations that serve only to confuse the issue.
On what grounds do you make these claims?
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Gawin »

rameymj, your arguments are fundamentally flawed.

1) It is instantaneous acceleration, not force over time that is the relevant factor.

Axons, the parts of neurons that are damaged by diffuse axonal injury concussions are really, really small. Their diameter is about 1 micron. If you apply 60Gs of acceleration transverse to an axon, it will undergo a 100% deformation in around 1/100,000th of a second. Practically speaking, that's about as close to instantaneous as it gets. This is also 100 times faster than the temporal resolution of the recording equipment used by the numerous studies of concussions in football players that have concluded it is the PEAK acceleration that is most predictive of concussion risk, not the total or average amounts of acceleration (Guskiewicz et al., 2003; Guskiewicz et al., 2007; McCrea et al., 2003).

2) You have inappropriately defined the difference between "elastic" and "inelastic" collisions. You said, "When elastic collisions are involved the force must be summed over time, and this is calculus."

This is 100% false.

An elastic collision is a collision where kinetic energy is conserved, an inelastic collision is one where kinetic energy is lost to the system (e.g. through the generation of heat, light, or through deformation). A pool ball collision is a near-perfect elastic collision whereas a perfect inelastic collision would be one where the colliding objects stick to each other to become one object. Your calculations are therefore based on incorrect defintions; for clarification, please, take a look here: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/elacol.html

You will note that this has absolutely nothing to do with how fast the collision occurs. You will also note that the law of conservation of energy and the law of conservation of momentum don't tell us anything about instantaneous acceleration, so they're also wholly irrelevant to the calculations needed to address whether something protects against concussions.

3) "Intuitively we know this because heavier helms require a different blow calibration than lighter helms."

This calibration claim is one brought about by our sensation of pressure, not instantaneous acceleration. It is a separate topic entirely. Anecdotally, this is going to be felt mostly in situations where there is little concussion risk (due to the neck muscles providing resistance to the acceleration of the head & helm).

4) "Adding mass decreases acceleration, which decreases the shearing forces/concussions."

As the article notes, adding mass provides a little bit of protection, but not enough to be relied on to provide meaningful protection, especially against rotation of the head.

5) Your description of padding ignores a large part of the collision system in order to support your conclusions.

Concussion risk is greatest when the recipient fails to provide resistance against the impact using their neck muscles. Any situation where we are relying on padding to protect us against concussion cannot be treated as if the head and padding is fixed in space, but rather must be allowed to accelerate through space. Adding in mitigating factors like neck muscles allows you to overlook the types of situations where the risk is greatest-- essentially making sure your crash test dummy is all buckled in and the car isn’t going too fast. Your model doesn't allow for this more injurious situation and it consequently allows you to ignore a large part of the force that is present in the collision.

When the weapon strikes, all of the force is applied to the metal of the helmet which is immediately transmitted to the padding (because the steel is rigid). This force will cause 2 types of motion 1) Compression of the padding and 2) acceleration of the padding.

Compression will occur according to Hooke's law such that the force (F) required to compress the padding some distance (d) F = -k*d (This is another definition that you couldn’t be bothered to look up). Here k is known as a the spring constant and it varies depending on the stiffness of the padding. However, given the nature of the padding we use, we can also account for the time domain using the k value. Specifically, if an impact applies force too quickly for the padding to compress, the effective k value will approach infinity, resulting in the padding acting as a rigid object. Because of this, you can see that padding doesn't spread the impact out over time; time simply changes the amount of force required to cause further compression. However, the amount of compression isn't terribly relevant to the force experienced by the head (and therefore the amount of acceleration that the head undergoes) because all of the force applied on one side of the pad to cause compression must also be resisted by whatever the padding is attached to (in this case, your head) or else the padding will accelerate.

In other words, the padding will only compress as much as the resistance provided by the head will allow and that all of the force involved in causing this compression is still applied to the head.

The other possibility is that the padding will accelerate. Because the padding is affixed to the head, this can be treated precisely the same as if the head were accelerating. So, any “extra” force that doesn’t go into compressing the padding is simply applied towards accelerating the head. This is again solely dependent on the resistance provided by the head.

As you can see, the padding doesn’t change the amount of force applied to the head nor does it change the distribution of this force over time. The force is applied instantaneously and in the situations where concussions will occur, the padding compresses as a consequence of the resistance provided by the head, not the force applied by the weapon.


6) "Newton's first law: a body in motion will remain in motion ...

So if the head is accelerated, why doesn't it stay in motion? Where does the energy go?

The neck muscles (and some other muscles technically) exert a counter force. Muscles "absorb" the energy (technically the chemical energy in the muscles is converted into kinetic energy counter to the weapon direction)."

You are correct that it is neck muscles that provide resistance, but if they fail to engage, the head is stopped by the cervical vertebrae grounding out on each other, which couples the body mass to the mass of the head, greatly increasing the required force to cause acceleration. This also runs the risk of causing a whiplash injury.

"Helm mass and padding reduce the velocities give the muscles more time to react and REDUCE movement/accelerations/shearing forces/concussions."

and

"So if your muscles are able to generate sufficient force at the correct time {and nothing rips}, your head wouldn't move ... no motion means no acceleration ... no acceleration means no shearing forces in the axons or no concussions. Do your neck strengthening exercises."

If the muscles are engaged, we're probably not getting concussed, so I do encourage you to build your neck strength, but as noted in my article, all fighters will perform actions that leave them briefly incapable of providing this resistance during their fights.

Feeling the blow strike your helmet doesn't give sufficient time for you to engage your muscles in response to the hit. Padding might be able to be used as an "early warning" system (like whiskers on a cat) if you had >6" thick padding, but that's massively impractical.

"###this is also why blindside hits are more dangerous###"

This has to do with vision, not touch, hence the word "blindside." When you see a hit coming, it's possible to prepare *before* it hits you.

While you seem to have spent some time writing your comment, you've failed to provide correct definitions to a number of basic physics concepts that suggests that you either were careless in your reading of my article or that you did not look them up after your admitted “30 years” since using these concepts. Traumatic brain injuries cripple and kill people and the claim that helmets and padding will protect people from such life-altering injuries is false. I realize that you were trying to provide a beneficial service by fact-checking me, and I hope that everyone who reads my response will understand what their actual risks are and the irrefutable facts of the matter.

If anyone sees errors in my math or in my sources, please let me know.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Scott Martin »

I think this thread was started to illustrate the impact of CTE and outline mitigation measures to ensure that these didn't continue to happen, not to debate math.

Perhaps a less technical argument would be useful.

Your car has blown a tire on the highway: do you steer for the snow bank, or the concrete wall? If you are convinced that damage is caused by total energy, not acceleration effects (area under the curve) then these two are effectively identical.

Given the amount of engineering design put into crumple zones in the last 4 decades and the vast increase in vehicle crash survivability I'll bet on the snow bank.

Logically it follows that I will make sure to pad my helm as well as I can - perhaps we should create a new thread to discuss padding alternatives to minimize CTE?

Concussions and brain injuries are no joke, so do everything you can to avoid or minimize the chance of receiving one. Thanks to the folks who have stepped forward to share what a devestating impact they can have on your lif, and the lives of those you care about.

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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Scott Martin »

Oh look, a thread on helm padding!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=184335&p=2801747#p2801747

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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by Dante di Pietro »

The "less technical" argument is wrong.

If the math is sound, and thus far it hasn't been successfully undermined, then arguing against it is literally arguing against physics.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by boris_ »

Dante di Pietro wrote:
boris_ wrote: I do think that his publishing that is *shockingly* irresponsible. He speaks with faux authority on a topic he seems to not understand and muddies it up with equations that serve only to confuse the issue.
On what grounds do you make these claims?
On the ground that no person who has an actual expertise in the physics seems to back this up. When I was speaking through with my friend who is a bio medical engineer (although his own focus is not CTE specifically) they found a lot of issues with the claims made. One example is that he has a focus on force and energy instead of acceleration, which is the chief concern with concussions. I will see if I can go back to the conversation I had and post more of what he said.

When those sorts of mistakes are made and he advocates/justifies *less* protection in the process I see this as very irresponsible. If someone read this, took this advice and got injured as a result, some blame would be with the author.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by boris_ »

Dante di Pietro wrote:The "less technical" argument is wrong.

If the math is sound, and thus far it hasn't been successfully undermined, then arguing against it is literally arguing against physics.
This is a fallacy. If I make an argument and misapply math to make the claim, the math adding up on its own doesn't matter. I could say that we see that 12 +3 = 15 and that means we should only use horsehair padding for safety. The math is *extremely* sound but that means literally nothing in regard to the argument. Even if I say that arguing against it is literally arguing against the most proven of mathematics.
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Re: Concussions and CTE

Post by John S. »

Debating the math can be interesting. (Well for some of us anyway...please humor us if you disagree.) It can also be useful because it helps us better make conscious choices about how we fight and armor.

Without taking a closer look at his article, I agree with Gawin that neck strength is very important for avoiding injury. I am not comfortable with his conclusions that padding doesn't help and that helmet mass only helps a little. Of these, I don't know which parameter helps more.

Looking at a conceptual example like the one Scott Martin brought up--visualize running an out of control car into some of those orange traffic barrels to (try to) stop it. Imagine three different cases: (1) the barrels are firmly anchored to the ground, (2) the barrels are partially anchored to the ground by a smaller force like friction, and (3) the car and the barrel are on a frictionless lake and the barrel maintains it's position via inertia only.

Without doing math or knowing physics terms, it is obvious that in these three cases the barrel would interact with the car differently.

This conceptual difference is what drives Gawin's conclusions about padding. If:
(1) padding only helps reduce acceleration if it gets deformed,
(2) padding will only be deformed if some force acts to keep it in place, and
(3) there is no force acting to keep the object in place when the neck isn't tense,
Then it follows that padding doesn't help reduce acceleration in this instance.

In the process of drawing his conclusions about padding, I think that--to facilitate communication with his audience--Gawin has simplified his models too much. This is a tremendously complex system and disregarding some portion of it can completely change the conclusions researchers draw. Note that this doesn't necessarily make his conclusions wrong. It should, however, trigger healthy skepticism.

Here are some of my general questions or concerns:

*It's hard enough to consistently agree on a "good" blow within the community. How do we know what physical quantity corresponds to a "good" blow?

*The article switches from rotational acceleration to linear acceleration as the cause of concussions. The implication seems to be that minimizing rotational acceleration also minimizes linear acceleration. I accept this, but question skipping over the effect of radius, center of mass, and the axis of rotation. How does helmet size or shape effect rotational acceleration? Are concussions more or less likely as blows come from different angles or strike different parts of the head?

*Neither energy nor momentum are conserved during a SCA baton blow. Cut and thrust fighters are trained to strike to the opponent. We are often trained to strike slightly into an opponent. This means that we continue to apply force during the collision which makes the math more complex.

*SCA baton blows are also (often) not linear. We throw and recover in a loop. The radius of rotation of that loop often changes mid-blow. A blow may not hit normal to the target. What is most dangerous?

*I suspect (albeit intuitively) that the neck always supplies some force to oppose motion. Again intuitively, I think that helm padding will always get at least partially compressed by a blow due to the inertia of the helm and the baseline tension in the neck. I don't walk into a fight with my neck clenched, but my neck always has some tension. Any time delay may be for this force to increase. Is this increase better modeled as a step function that applies a constant restoring force after some time or as a spring that increases restoring force as deformation increases?

*Real padding can't be treated as an ideal spring. For the engineers in the crowd, think back to your mechanics of deformable bodies class where you modeled deforming objects using coupled springs and masses arranged in different ways to represent elastic and viscous materials. Unlike an ideal spring, the response of real padding can have a time component. Whenever real padding is deformed, it also dissipates energy in the form of heat. (To illustrate this, try stretching a rubber band repeatedly and holding it to your upper lip.)

*How do we best model the possibility of the helmet deforming as well as the aventaille moving around?

*How do best model the effect of a chinstrap in our math?

*I think that the only way to predict the effect of a baton blow is to set-up the system of springs and masses that Gawin rejected. Even then, one team of researchers will choose different parameters for their model than another team. If I were to set-up this system of differential equations and do the background reading to choose appropriate parameters, I would expect to get my own publication out of it.
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