The Armour Archive

Be careful Your Excellency. Dangerous waters...

Count Johnathan wrote:I just got my new stick today from McMaster carr. It appears to be drastically different from the first one I got. It is not as heavy and it is a different color. It is more of a deep ivory and has no writing on it of any kind. It is more opaque as the other stick had almost a foggy water quality to it. It has the same wobble and feel when I strike the pell though. If it lasts for a year I will let you know LOL.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:The problem (as it seems to me) isn't that polypro "explodes". It is that the rods we are experimenting with vary in two rather important factors for SCA combat - rigidity, and shearing. Problems that I beleive aren't a consideration for what these rods would be used for.

What we need is a material that mimics rattan in that it has fibers that run the length of the stick - but the fibers have to be arranged to mimic the flex and (to a degree) the "crush" of plant material. And it needs to not significantly change, mechanically or chemically, in the temperature ranges that SCA combat takes place in.

This actually brings to mind a question. To what degree are our fighting methods and techniques being totally driven by the choice of rattan as our sword analogue?

It seems rattan was an early choice because of certain qualities: durability, availability, safe failure characteristics, reasonable weight ratio. But, it also has characteristics which do not enhance its sword-like handling. It bounces, gets soft, duct tape doesn't slide or bind like metal, it flexes inconsistently, etc.

But, a lot of the techniques we use are done because they work with rattan. How many of us rely on rattan's rebound to do an onside/offside combo all the time? Or a sword block that sticks instead of deflects? So, are we looking for a safe, available, durable sword simulator, or are we looking for an artificial rattan simulator?

I'd say we are still looking for flexibility, durability, availability, safe failure characteristics, and reasonable weight ratio. If the material in question has all of these qualities, then handling will be commented on and a factor in individual preference, but not a significant factor in whether it is banned or approved.

I'd say that since all alternative are compared to rattan that what gets searched for is a rattan simulator. Which drives our fighting techniques and there is a innate resistance to change in that regard so it drives the search for a rattan substitute that is exactly like rattan. Look at what we have so far; SiloFlex with rattan inside.

+1

Nylon turned into floppy noodles in the heat and iron bars in the cold.

yeah Nylon was much, much worse than polypro.

I have one of the polypro swords I used it a couple of times had a hard time hitting people hard enough with it... and it flexed a lot IMO, (34 inch sword) The strikes did not feel crisp like rattan but spongy, more like a shove my opponents said. but then again, were know for taking hard in Trimaris......


Thor-

Hmmm... what if the polypro was shaped like a mace or hammer?

And was the weight and mass distribution of the polypro "sword" comparable to rattan? comparable to a real sword?

I consider Polypro to be step 2 or 3 of a longer process and eagerly anticipate the final steps...

I am still not sure if the tape is even needed. Is there a chance that the tape could hide possible damage to the material. Can we get this material in different colors or even shapes that might look more appropriate.

zippy wrote:I am still not sure if the tape is even needed. Is there a chance that the tape could hide possible damage to the material. Can we get this material in different colors or even shapes that might look more appropriate.

I was thinking a thick heat-shrink tube might work.

As far as "damage" to the material is concerned, when it is "damaged" it is broken. Pieces. Otherwise minor scuffs seems to be all the damage it takes.

Different colors are possible as well as shapes. Cold steel wasters are made of the same stuff but they are black.

You're playing with fire man...

Count Johnathan wrote:As far as "damage" to the material is concerned, when it is "damaged" it is broken. Pieces. Otherwise minor scuffs seems to be all the damage it takes.

Different colors are possible as well as shapes. Cold steel wasters are made of the same stuff but they are black.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:Not really. I talk to plastics manufacturers every day. What we need is not a common-use plastic - unless some other industry needs it, we would have to supply the entire demand. And pay the R&D to find the right formulation and extrusion.

Knight's Shop, Cold Steel and Pentii/Purpleheart have all already done that.

zippy wrote:I am still not sure if the tape is even needed. Is there a chance that the tape could hide possible damage to the material. Can we get this material in different colors or even shapes that might look more appropriate.

The tape is needed for if it breaks.

BdeB wrote: The tape is needed for if it breaks.

....even though tape doesn't hold it together since there are no fibers in the material itself that keep it from simply snapping in two ... LOL

old habits die hard.

Knokes Lyonn wrote:You're playing with fire man...

I aint scared...

Don't expose it to light. Don't get it wet, and DEFINATELY don't feed it after midnight..

When polypro breaks, it breaks into chunks/shards - the tape hopefully keeps chunks from flying.


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Diglach mac Cein wrote:The problem (as it seems to me) isn't that polypro "explodes". It is that the rods we are experimenting with vary in two rather important factors for SCA combat - rigidity, and shearing. Problems that I beleive aren't a consideration for what these rods would be used for.

What we need is a material that mimics rattan in that it has fibers that run the length of the stick - but the fibers have to be arranged to mimic the flex and (to a degree) the "crush" of plant material. And it needs to not significantly change, mechanically or chemically, in the temperature ranges that SCA combat takes place in.


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Fiber optic rod.

Better beef up your armor though..

"If I had asked my customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse." H. Ford

We may be locked into thinking about rattan replacements instead of simulators.

If we are looking for a fiber lattice of the correct size with longitudinal fibers what about... rattan?
Could we vacuum draw a polypropylene melt into a shaved rattan form? If so, could we draw one into a CF form?

Diglach mac Cein wrote:When polypro breaks, it breaks into chunks/shards - the tape hopefully keeps chunks from flying.


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When it breaks, it breaks ckeen and generally lands within five to ten feet of the fight.

Maeryk wrote:Don't expose it to light. Don't get it wet, and DEFINATELY don't feed it after midnight..

Polypro, or Count Jonathan?

Must be Polypro. I live in the kingdom of the sun. Don't feed me after midnight though....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high ... lyethylene

This stuff is much stronger than standard polypro. I wouldn't want to be hit with it though...

Funny enough, "It is made up of extremely long chains of polyethylene, which all align in the same direction." Meaning it has 'fibers' just like rattan.

Also: "This results in a very tough material, with the highest impact strength of any thermoplastic presently made."

Have fun.

Odd polypro aside. A county commissioners' meeting I covered this week included opening of sealed bids for a "..2,000 gallon polypropylene "T" style tanker-pumper..," for a volunteer fire department.

So, if 34" strips are missing from it, I had _nothing_ to do with it!


Val

Many of the examples/thought experiments above make one error: they add some amount of not-insignificant weight to the rod.

Shrink tubing is overkill. Making an extruded formed rod with a shaped base that's more than 1.25" will make the rod REALLY HEAVY.

People who like light swords already think the standard 1.25" rod is too heavy.

It is pretty heavy. Mine is cut to 34" and weighs exactly 3.5 lbs with basket hilt. The balance point is good though at almost exactly 2" above the basket. Nice thing will be that if it holds up long enough to be worth the money if it eventually does break the replacement will be exactly the same stick so there will be no change to get used too when I replace it. We will see. It's still been just too damn hot to go fight with it yet.

double post. grr....

We have done some tests here locally and besides being a bit heavier than average rattan, it has a slightly different feel and flow to it.

That does seem a bit heavy, the polish cavalry saber (karabela) weighs on average under a kilogram. That a decent sized single handed sword under 2.2 pounds, in some cases under 2 pounds.

I've seen a polypro weapon break before during sparring. In that instance it broke cleanly with no sharp edges, shredding or anything. Just throwing in my limited experience.

Also, the polypro weapons me and others were using at the time were lighter than their real-life counter parts, and felt a lot lighter than rattan to me. Then again, it could have been that these things were properly balanced whereas 99% of all rattan weapons I've used in an SCA context were hideously tip heavy.

Zip my average rattan swords weigh about 2.25 to 2.5 lbs so an additional pound is definately a big difference.