Next West Kingdom Crown Format

[MarkH]

This is how I'm running the next West Kingdom Crown...
Greetings West Kingdom,
March Crown 2016 will be run a little differently, and We wanted to give fighters as much notice a possible, so that they can be aware of the format, and practice in the style of the tournament to better prepare if they so choose.
Invocation and challenges will remain the same, and the list will be run as a standard double elimination tournament, with standard West Kingdom armor conventions. The big difference will be that fights shall be to counted blows, no acted out wounds. What this means;
All fights are to 3 good blows struck
Fighters still call their own blows
ALL TARGETS COUNT THE SAME, a hit to an arm, leg, head or body counts as one good blow.
There will be a pause when a good blow is struck, to allow fighters to reset. This way, people who drop an arm/leg out of reflex are not penalized
If a flurry is landed, only the first blow counts, as a pause is enacted after a good blow
Double strikes count against both fighters. If you trade a leg for a head, both fighters earn one point.
Double kills are destructive. If there is a 2-2 score, and a double hit occurs, both fighters take a loss on their record. This will only change in finals, where a double kill will be refought. Finals will still be a best of three fights.
Although no one “dies” in a counted blows tournament, We are asking fighters to take a knee and salute, so that bystanders can understand the outcome of a fight.
We taped a few example fights at practice, included below.
Please let Us know if you have any questions.
YIS,
Marc de Arundel
Crown Prince, West
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zHohJm_9DY

[Baron Eirik]

I like this

[paulb]

I don't.

[Ghosteh]

I'm not a Westerner, but I'm curious about the destructive double kills. Is this meant as a way to pare down a large list? The one counted blows Crown that we had here in Atlantia was a blast. I'm not sure, but I think match point double kills would have resulted in a sudden death last pass until one kill was clean. I like to see Crowns thinking and actively seeking to grow and improve the game. Vivat!

[MarkH]

Hi Ghosteh,
Destructive double kills serve 2 functions in this kind of list:
1) Time management. These fights MIGHT run a little longer, and refighting a bout that has gone all 6 blows might run the tournament too long to be practical.

2) I want to encourage clean fighting. Sometimes we fight overly aggressive or even suicidally, because the penalty for double killing is a reset where we get to do it all again.
This is no real penalty. Some fighters even teach to go full offense mode if they get armed, since if they manage to hit the other guy while being struck, they "get" to reset intact.
I want people to pay attention to their defense, and make choices that would be reasonable if we were fighting with real weapons.

I doubt there will be too many scenarios where fighters suffer a double hit when there is already a 2-2 score. That's my hope anyway.

[Ghosteh]

Makes sense. You have clearly put some thought into this format, and I applaud you for it. I think you will find some amazing bouts in your upcoming Crown list, based on the one Atlantia ran. I believe that I had more fun in that Crown than any other one I've fought in.

[Roger_de_Gilbert]

This sounds great!

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Marc, you're my hero. This is awesome!

Me & Milan were talking about if this could ever be pulled off in the West and were not sure. Good on you for just going for it. I demand pics and vid!

[Therion]

Using a counted blow system to better simulate the effects of arms and the efficiency of armor is an excellent choice, and it is an historical format for tournament combat.



(remember, folks: Just Say No To Monty Python Combat!)

[David]

Wish this would be adopted by the group as a whole, at least for tourneys. Knee fighting is just silly and looks worse. Counted blows fits much better into the SCA fighting as tournament fighting model.

[Thaddeus]

I am very curious to see how this is received by the fighters and the populace.

[Syrfinn]

Like this style. Decided a few years ago, if I ever won, that the Crown for my successor would be ran this way also.

Will enjoy seeign the outcome and also video hopefully of the day.

[Gaston de Clermont]

I love this idea. I'm curious about the longer term implications if this becomes more common. It seems a larger shield to protect the leg gives a bigger advantage, and folks will keep their arms out of the way more. The changes with double kills would make two sword less effective. Great weapon fights might be more varied and dramatic. As it is now it's a big risk to throw a leg shot with a pole arm, but with the reward effectively being increased it makes more sense.

[Paul the Small]

I don't.

More information please, Your Grace. Why do you not like it?

[paulb]

Making leg strikes equivalent to body/head strikes will (1) make an easier target a more rewarding one, and/or (2) promote the use of longer shields, which I find unaesthetic.

I don't find knee fighting to be a wonderful alternative, but it can be aesthetic if practiced similarly to the custom in An Tir, where a reasonable distance is required between the kneeling and standing fighters.

[Broadway]

Nah. Still looks stupid.

[Broadway]

None shall pass!

[Gaston de Clermont]

I'm in favor of rules that create a vigorous and dynamic fight that looks more like what our medieval predecessors did. The more we're able to encourage that, the more we're doing right in my mind. This eliminates the play acting of wounds, which we have no evidence of, and discourages double kills which don't make a ton of sense in a real fight.

I might address the unintended consequence of longer shields directly by making a rule limiting the largest dimension of shields. I think you'd get a lot of the beautiful fights I'd hope for.

[Broadway]

Unless you think kite shields are beautiful.

[MarkH]

Hi Guys,
The concerns over this format promoting "Arm Hunting" and bigger shields have been brought up by a few people in different venues (AA, Facebook, in person, etc.).
I feel like people should learn to defend their arms, instead of blocking their heads with their arms, I feel that this practice has gotten very common, and too many take advantage of our culture and block a "valid" target (head) with a "less valid" target (arm). The culture of "going for the kill" and not intentionally disadvantaging someone by taking their arm in order to promote the "best" or "most fun" fight has had the unintended side effect of promoting bad habits that weakens our fighting, especially when we play with other kingdoms that don't share our cultural bias.

I have to admit, that people getting bigger shields for this format didn't even occur to me. I would never change my equipment in order to game a rules system, and I guess I generally believe that the heroes of our kingdom won't either.

We reveal our character in our actions. There are plenty of ways that people can "game" the rules even in a standard list, and those people are seen and known.

I agree with you that body/head strikes are more satisfying. There is an other rule set advocated by Sir Vitus von Atzinger, where you get 2 points for head/body, and only 1 point for limbs. I considered this, but wanted to keep things more simple for a first attempt at this style of crown.

I could legislate shield size, but that might then stack the deck in favor of those who habitually fight with smaller shields.
Besides, the more rules you add, the less a chance people have to show that they are trying to walk the chivalric path. If I MAKE people use a certain shield, they have less opportunity to CHOOSE to challenge themselves, and achieve greater renown.

[Paul the Small]

Making leg strikes equivalent to body/head strikes will (1) make an easier target a more rewarding one, and/or (2) promote the use of longer shields, which I find unaesthetic.

I don't find knee fighting to be a wonderful alternative, but it can be aesthetic if practiced similarly to the custom in An Tir, where a reasonable distance is required between the kneeling and standing fighters.

Ah... That makes sense. Thank you.

What do people think about the counted blow type tourneys where limbs are 1 point and head/body/neck shots are 2 points? I personally like that idea because it takes away the "acted out wounds" which I find a bit silly.

[dukelogan]

terrible idea. sca sport combat is what it is. when we monkey around with it, for any reason, we refuse the opportunity to make it an art.

regards
logan

[paulb]

I have to admit, that people getting bigger shields for this format didn't even occur to me. I would never change my equipment in order to game a rules system, and I guess I generally believe that the heroes of our kingdom won't either.

I'm afraid that many of the "heroes" of the West have already demonstrated that they would.

Concerning leg blows - they are easier to achieve, and sniping at legs will be a superior strategy to trying to get a head or body shot in. The fighters who approach our fighting as an art, and wish a chivalric contest will be put at a disadvantage by those who choose to adopt this strategy. You can probably get a good idea of the percentage who will do so by noting which of them already do something to game the rules, or push the boundaries of what is reasonable to get an advantage.

Perhaps acting out wounds isn't the best way to do things, but if done reasonably, without crowding the downed fighter, fights can retain a good aesthetic quality. Also, it's done pretty well for the last 50 years.

Regards,

[Baron Logan]

If you don't legislate your shield size then your kingdom will creep into big shields and long boring crowns. Once it happens you can never go back. Big shield winners will claim there is no shame hiding behind a war shield during a tourney and of course it must be right because they won a crown with one. It will slowly change your kingdom culture as those big shield winners train up big shield squires who find it easier to concentrate on offense and get a better win rate with them.

Human nature will eventually follow the easier road.

[Alex Baird]

Concerning leg blows - they are easier to achieve, and sniping at legs will be a superior strategy to trying to get a head or body shot in. The fighters who approach our fighting as an art, and wish a chivalric contest will be put at a disadvantage by those who choose to adopt this strategy. You can probably get a good idea of the percentage who will do so by noting which of them already do something to game the rules, or push the boundaries of what is reasonable to get an advantage.

As opposed to those who "game" the standard rules and customs to protect their limbs from targeting, and so rely on those rules instead of actually avoiding getting struck there? Perhaps His Highness' Crown rules will inspire some to use big shields, but perhaps it will induce others to actually defend their limbs actively, as one would if getting struck there meant risk of permanent crippling instead of a temporary height penalty disadvantage. Instead of the common SCA strategy of trading a limb to get a body that the standard rules make profitable, one must actually try to keep from being struck at all. Does that not show greater skill?

Duke Logan has a point, if the idea is to preserve "SCA sport combat" in its pure form. His Highness has a point if the idea is to have it evolve and encourage better defensive skills.

[Alex Baird]

If you don't legislate your shield size then your kingdom will creep into big shields and long boring crowns.

Nothing stopping people from using those shields now, except that the standard rules favor smaller, nimbler shields because the penalty for being hit in a limb is simply a temporary disadvantage. In fact, there is no need at all to defend from the knee down.

Human nature will eventually follow the easier road.

Yes. And any rules set can be gamed for advantage and the easier road is defined by those rules. The easy road in the standard set is to not worry about getting hit in the arm or leg if it gains you a chance to hit your opponent in the head. The standard SCA rules are no more artificial than that proposed for this Crown tourney. Each advantages different skill sets. So what, as long as all are equal under the rules?

[Gaston de Clermont]

You can probably get a good idea of the percentage who will do so by noting which of them already do something to game the rules, or push the boundaries of what is reasonable to get an advantage.

Perhaps acting out wounds isn't the best way to do things, but if done reasonably, without crowding the downed fighter, fights can retain a good aesthetic quality. Also, it's done pretty well for the last 50 years.

I submit that everyone does something to carve out what advantages they can from the rules, and a lot of it is in equipment. Modern treaded shoes, plastic or aluminum armour, bar grills, basket hilts etc. They all bring some competitive advantage, they're all legal, they're all ubiquitous, and they're all at odds with the larger intent of a medieval experience. People will trickle toward the most advantageous rig the rules and their regional culture will allow.

There's a growing consensus at least in the circles I travel in than fighting from your knees looks goofy, even when it's done well. Eventually the church has to change with the times or its flock will find another temple.

[Blaine de Navarre]

Making leg strikes equivalent to body/head strikes will (1) make an easier target a more rewarding one, and/or (2) promote the use of longer shields, which I find unaesthetic.

I don't find knee fighting to be a wonderful alternative, but it can be aesthetic if practiced similarly to the custom in An Tir, where a reasonable distance is required between the kneeling and standing fighters.

Ah... That makes sense. Thank you.

What do people think about the counted blow type tourneys where limbs are 1 point and head/body/neck shots are 2 points? I personally like that idea because it takes away the "acted out wounds" which I find a bit silly.

A compromise position we have used a lot in these parts is to require at least one of the 3 blows to be a head or body shot, just like the fouls/strikes rule in baseball.

[Robert of Canterbury]

this is joyous news.

[Hrolfr]

If you don't legislate your shield size then your kingdom will creep into big shields and long boring crowns.

Nothing stopping people from using those shields now, except that the standard rules favor smaller, nimbler shields because the penalty for being hit in a limb is simply a temporary disadvantage. In fact, there is no need at all to defend from the knee down.

Human nature will eventually follow the easier road.

Yes. And any rules set can be gamed for advantage and the easier road is defined by those rules. The easy road in the standard set is to not worry about getting hit in the arm or leg if it gains you a chance to hit your opponent in the head. The standard SCA rules are no more artificial than that proposed for this Crown tourney. Each advantages different skill sets. So what, as long as all are equal under the rules?

The Middle (and from what I have seen Northsheild) usually have a size limit upon the size for Crown.

[Syrfinn]

Would not neccesarily agree with you here, Baron Logan.

Just going by my own kingdom, AEthelmearc, we for a very long time did not not have shield rules. Then for a few years, the folks winning the crowns, decided to go with shield rules, in this case being able to span your shield. This went on for about 5 years I think. Main reason stated, was to make the fights more pleasing to watch, and to increase the skill. My own personal view was, yes it did on a few. But for more it just made them raise their acknowledgement to accomodate for the lack of shield.

But now we have had a few years of no crowns with a limit, and for the most part, most folks have kept with their smaller shields that they could span for tournaments. A few changed to longer shields, but to be honest, the few that have, needed to, they were tall people, that had shorter wing spans compared to their height. But even those who have, the folks still winning our crowns, are the ones who have stuck with the more manageable shields.

Honestly, I have always hated the span rule, cause for my height, I could span longer than folks taller than me. I am 5'8" and can span 31" and if I am working on my yoga can almost get to 33". Which is 1" shorter than what I used to fight with, when I fought heater in Atlantia.

Granted I came from a kingdom, and still hold to a lot of the beliefs I grew up with. You bring your weapon, and I will bring mine, and we will see who is better that day. Granted, I also grew up having to learn to fight against 2 squire brothers who fought with huge kite shields, so i learned how to fight against larger shields.

I will still say I like this rule change, his Highness is purposing for his Crown, and have thought about running something like it, if I ever won. I just hate watching leg fighting, or 90% of the fighters out there, it just looks ugly and tedious.

If you don't legislate your shield size then your kingdom will creep into big shields and long boring crowns. Once it happens you can never go back. Big shield winners will claim there is no shame hiding behind a war shield during a tourney and of course it must be right because they won a crown with one. It will slowly change your kingdom culture as those big shield winners train up big shield squires who find it easier to concentrate on offense and get a better win rate with them.

Human nature will eventually follow the easier road.