The Armour Archive

dukelogan wrote:i sure did trystan and im sorry i butchered the name. i also read your story about the novice list and you being restricted due to your previous experiences and im not sure how i feel about that. i have marshaled a novice list in which i forbade a knight from entering even though he just authorized in two weapon for the first time.

That Knight showed questionable judgement IMHO. Chiv member does not equal novice on any level or weps form, again IMHO.

In my case, it was my first year as a dues-paid member of the SCA and my first year as a list-authorized SCA fighter of any weps form. They said I would sweep the lists easily so they told me to stay home. I say that was the reason to have gone!

Who knows - had that gone differently, I might be a Duke today instead of a Mercenary Scum. Ok, so maybe not either. The current King of Atlantia came from Anglesey so who knows. So did Count Havordh and Baron Syr Balynar. Either way, oh well... ::shrug:: I have enough renowne points of my own by now to change that if I felt like it (I think?). The trouble is that I got old somewhere along the way...

Colin wrote
Don't blame that crap on me, I fought tooth and nail against those rules and was the junior marshal on the field that day. Let be just go ahead and hang Edwin and Fritz out to dry for that nightmare. If I could come up with a couple more excuses I would because that tourney sucked!
Colin

WHOA!! just saw this one. I didn't mean you. I meant Colin the autocrat. My old roomate Colin.

Edwin was in New Jersy or something for several weeks (perhaps months) before Ice castle during the planning stages. In my opinion that meant the duties fell to the autocrat.

Also Tryston you are not the only one that occured to...you are in good company. Count Sir Stephan of Wulfshaven had Strykar do the same thing to him.


Axel

Trystan,

from the timeline that you are talking about, I think Cuan won that novice tourney, literally wiping the floor with anyone who got in his way.

Alaric

My worst tourney was "back in the day when the great rhinos of old walked the earth". (early 80s probably)

We had some bad ones back then. Thankfully either they are now gone, or dead.

I had been fighting several years at that point. I was a decent middle of the road fighter.

My first fight was with a young unbelted nazgul who had been around quite a long time. We fought for about a half hour. I hit a number of hard clean shots. He didn't take them. This was typical of all his fights. (Eventually this guy was censured, but improved.)

My second fight was with a brand new fighter in his first tourney that just didn't want to be killed by anyone, let alone a "girl" and I eventually took the bout, but again, it was about 1/2 hr and I hit him LOTS and LOTS, cause he sucked, but didn't want to admit it.

Did I mention the Marshals sucked that day?

I think I won my 3rd round fight.

Then I met with one of the Great Unbelted Rhinos of old. Think Bluto from Popeye. Big, fat, slow, impossible to kill, hits very hard, known for bragging about trying to hurt people if possible. If Nazgul looked like Bluto, that would be him. By then I was not in the best of moods, having had two long ugly exhausting fights.

So he went out two swords. The fight went awhile. (He was an ok fighter, even if he was slow.) I hit him about 5-10 times in the head and body, clean, pretty hard. He tended to leave a lot of nice slot shots open down the middle. Not a word. Finally he got one in on my behind with his off hand. Back then I wore no armor or even padding on my behind, and this was a very very light tap, definitely way light. I said nothing.

He backs out and stops the fight and asks me if I felt that blow to my "hip". I said, "Yes, my lord, I have no armor there and it was light." He responded with something like "Well, my lady" he says with a snear "I have been pulling my blows, if you don't want to take my pulled blows, I'll recalibrate, but you may end up regretting it because you will end up hurt." (This was awhile ago, not exact quote, but there was definitely a threat to my person in there somewhere.) I then replied that I would ask that he not pull his blows at all and that I expected to be fought like any other on the field.

There was some Bluto mumbling about "fine, then I'll have to hurt you" or something along those lines.

Then it happened. I snapped. Luckily I trained with bigger meaner dudes than him, so I was not in the least frightened by his threat, but I was cold as ice angry.

We fought some more. I would hit him about 5 times to every blow he landed upon me. I used all the same pissy excuses he always used "high", "light", "glancy", "tippy", etc. Meanwhile I did my best to bruise him in any unarmored place on his person. The marshals were looking at women off the field the whole fight.

Eventually I got tired and decided to die. I figured he hit me about 4 times, I hit him about 25.

After the fight I walked back behind the pavilions and silent screamed. I didn't like what I'd done, even if it was on purpose. I'm not proud of my actions that day. I was angry at myself, at him, at the Chivalry and marshallate for doing NOTHING about him and all the jerks just like him we had at the time. I was angry that a guy could feel that he felt free to try to intimidate and threaten me because I was a woman.

Then the next fight he had was with my good Abbey Brother Sir Aethelred the Jute. At the time, butt mauls were allowed on glaives. Sir Aethelred hit him as hard as he could with his. It was really hard. We all when "aah!" when it hit. Mr. Rhino when down to his knees and called hold to stop the fight. He had a percussion cut just above his eyes. So he decided to call the fight with "My lord, the blow was not good, but I will forfiet the fight because I can no longer see because of the blood running into my eyes."

He popped his helm and his face was all covered with blood. Countess Amsha came out as medic and sprayed coagulant of some type on him - all over his face, with extra near the eyes.

At that point we were all quite tired of Mr. Rhino and I guess threatening his Abbey sister and student was the last straw for Aethelred.

Eventually Mr. Rhino was censured and refused to abide by the censure and went away. He was a true sociopath, and there are more interesting stories about him showing me how the SCA is not immune to "scary" people.

Anyway, the tourney sucked and I was torn between guilt from what I did to satisfaction in showing him, not so much that I could rhino just like him, but that he could not hurt me.

I have never done anything like that again.

I was told later by an ex-girlfriend that I was on his list of "people he was planning on killing" for a long time.

-Juliana

Brennus wrote:3. If by Count Rhys you mean Brian Price I have met the man once and sat in on his civalry roundtable at Pennsic but I don't remember ever discussing women or tourneys with him.

Brian Price is Count Brian Thornbird in the SCA. He and Count Rhys are about as opposite as two people can get, both physically and personality-wise.

-Juliana

Bump.

Any changes?

-Aaron

My worst

A Hot, sunny day. Crowd choice of weapons, Crowd could shout instructions to fighters "Dance on the spot" etc. We were a bunch of bloody performing monkeys.

The worst was "run around the list field if you died"...

Wow...old thread...

My absolute worst tournament was a very long time ago.

In fact, it was the last (to date) Silver Hammer Tournament (Barony of Thor's Mountain, Meridies) I fought in. Way back in like 1990 or so.

After having traveled about 100 miles, my first fight ended up between me and a knight from my own Shire that I fought *all* the time (Sir Grayson).

After taking the time to armour up, get inspected, go through the traditional "present yourself to Her Excellency, Baroness Thor's Mountain, in order of precedence", and then getting called up to fight...

...I saluted my lady (at the time), saluted the Royalty, saluted the Baroness, saluted my most worthy opponent, and then paid heed to the Marshal. Once lay-on was called, my opponent took a step towards me. I took a small step back, waiting to see what he would do. He then took another step forward...and I turned a few degrees, and stepped my right foot back, in preparation for a charge...

...which never happened. Because, you see, as I took that last step back, my boot decided that now would be a good time to slide across the muddy spot on the field I'd failed to notice. Apparently it had rained heavily the night before.

My right foot slid back, my ankle buckled, and my entire body weight (and armour weight) contributed to my leg collapsing, and my foot buckling sideways (ie - the right side of my right foot came up towards my right ankle). I then proceeded to collapse in a heap, screaming at the top of my lungs.

I was cut out of my armour and sent to the hospital, subjected to many x-rays, pain killers, and anti-inflammatories. Hours later, I made it back to the event site, hobbling on crutches.

I spent the remainder of the evening, sitting in the great hall, my foot up on a pillow, chatting with Her Majesty who decided to keep me company.

Never even got to throw a single blow that tournament. *sigh*

There seems to be a new trend rising here. It's the "you need to enter an A&S project, and perform a bardic peice to enter the tourney".

I can see the desire to make more rounded fighters, but this aproach seems sensless to me.

I do A&S, but dont compete in competitions that compare aples to sawdust. so why should an A&S entry efect the outcome of a marshal tournament?

I also won't fight a tournament that is designed to belittle the combat and make combatants into performing monkeys.

[quote="BdeB
I thought that this past Ice Castles blew chunks personally. (We fought inside a gym and couldn't go down on our knees or die). Ice Castles is a three man tourney and we were fighting within a half court of a basketball court. If you stepped out they called a hold and reset. (This sucked because there were certain fighters that would jump out to stop the fight and get it reset. )



Should have been at the MOL table. We had our backs to a wall sitting down with a table between us and the fighting. We almost got flanked a couple of times.
Maddalenna

absolute worst Tourney I entered was back in 99 or 2000. Went to passing of the Unicorn.
Long ass drive with a shitty hotel stay getting there.

I was traveling with two ladies. Their armor got bounced. I couldn't use my weapons because my 7.5 ft pole was unpadded and even as someone coming from a different kingdom denied them.
Then to make it worse halfway through the tournament they stopped the tourney, Held some long ass court so two guys could fight a grudge melee then court held again..
I got disgusted and left....

Eirikr the Eager wrote:My worst

A Hot, sunny day. Crowd choice of weapons, Crowd could shout instructions to fighters "Dance on the spot" etc. We were a bunch of bloody performing monkeys.

The worst was "run around the list field if you died"...

All i could think of was ...

"Stop! ... Hammer Time"

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

BTW I wasn't refering to Sir Colin all those years ago. I meant Colin McNab, the autocrat.

BdeB wrote:
2. Sir Colin wasn't the MIC and didn't make the decisions. That would be Baron Edwin, who was MIC.

Asbrand -- I remember that Silver Hammer, and your injury. Any screaming you did was nothing as compared to your lady (at the time). After that, my wife referred to her as "the screamer".

My worst tourney was the Tuchux Charity Tourney at Pennsic, 2006. Couldn't seem to get anybody to acknowledge being hit hard with a stick. (And my problems were mostly with SCA guys in the tourney, not with Tuchux.)

CathalFinnObriain wrote:
All i could think of was ...

"Stop! ... Hammer Time"

BdeB wrote:
I used to say that the worst tourney that I ever fought in was the first one I won, a "Unfair" event in Tir-y-don years ago.

(Cut for space. LSS: truly retarded format)

It's amazing that I go back there at all, or even more so that some of my best friends come from TYD now.

It's not a pretty story, but it's a true one.
Who's next?

Wow. Really? When the heck was that mess?

And as for me, worst tourney was in a neighboring kingdom that shall not be named, where a marshal tried to deny me entry, because he felt that my facial jewelry. His claim? Not period....Says the man in white tennis shoes, digital sports watch, and sunglasses.

Sir Theaton's "Dirty Tricks Tourney" at Fool's War this year. The Meridians that were there know what I am referring to. I will leave it at this.

Duke Boru and Potatoes should not mix.

Adriano wrote:Asbrand -- I remember that Silver Hammer, and your injury. Any screaming you did was nothing as compared to your lady (at the time). After that, my wife referred to her as "the screamer".

LOL - I'd forgotten about that part. I guess the pain overruled my ears.

After reading all this thread, I think I qualify for the "Worst Tournament Ever" award.

At least...so far...

Az -- maybe you should give Silver Hammer another try. I missed the past two years, but I'll be back there the 25th of this month, trying to fulfill my pledge to win the tourney with a greatsword. You could come laugh at me.

(I should add -- for all I know, the problem at the Tuchux Tourney was entirely within myself; I just know I got mad and wanted to do damage, which should never happen in SCA fighting. But -- also had perhaps my best tourney experience ever at the same Pennsic, in the Calontir Greatsword Tourney.)

Kilian_the_warlike wrote:

BdeB wrote:

Wow. Really? When the heck was that mess?

I'm guessing that you were about 6 years old at the time.

Worst tourney ever? The first crown tourney Gavin Kilkenny won. I am glad he won others later because that one stank on ice. (not his fault)

The short version: One of the finalists (Andreas de Vulpas)got kicked out during the final fight. Calling it active marshalling would be an understatement. They had to pull Gavin in from the already dead file to fill in. The other finalist was Hasdrubal. Bad ugliness all around. People got shit on them that day that stunk for years. Hell, forever. A dozen guys who were there quit the SCA forever that day.

My day ended fighting Austin Chadwick of Normandy. He had a polarm and I had sword and shield. He legged me and then stood at range and clubbed me till I had a concusion from my shield hitting my helmet. Seriously, maybe 5 minutes of that and then I just gave up.

What was the worst tourney that you ever fought in i.e. where you had the worst time?

Any of them where it's getting deep in the pool and I'm dead ass tired from wearing maille chausses, maille shirt, steel arms, steel knees with leather legs, a breastplate, greaves, a hot stuffy real gambeson a heavy shield the entire time and no one else seems tired.....

I know, it's my fault for coming to the party overdressed......

BdeB wrote:

Kilian_the_warlike wrote:

BdeB wrote:

Wow. Really? When the heck was that mess?

I'm guessing that you were about 6 years old at the time.

1997? When you had to catch your own dinosaurs to make gas

Sir Axel wrote:Also Tryston you are not the only one that occured to...you are in good company. Count Sir Stephan of Wulfshaven had Strykar do the same thing to him.


Axel

Yeah, Axel, but that year, at the same event, he won the unbelted tourney, and Duke Timothy of Arendale won the novice.

Also, its not the worst I did to Donnie. Another tourney I made him fight axe and short sword. He won that one too.

Sometimes, this is the better way.

Kilian_the_warlike wrote:

BdeB wrote:

Kilian_the_warlike wrote:

BdeB wrote:

Wow. Really? When the heck was that mess?

I'm guessing that you were about 6 years old at the time.

1997? When you had to catch your own dinosaurs to make gas

Most likley 1996. At a site that doesn't exist anymore. Whimper-snapper.

Worst tourney format of all time (although there have been some doozies posted).

When CRITTER was Champion of the Barony of Settmore Swamp, he held a tourney to determine his successor.

The rules:
1) Mad dog points style (extra point for killing a knight, maybe?)
2) Birka-style fight on a blanket - step off you lose
3) You could only use weird Critter supplied shields (basically triple-wide vanbraces - like snow shoes
4) You had to use Critter supplied weapons - maces or goofy broadswords that had the grip cross-cut purposefully the wrong way so it was very difficult to throw a flat snap.

Since there were more weapons than participants, you had to rotate them and they were handed out more or less randomly.

Now any _one_ of these rules would have been wacky enough, 2 might have been pushing it. 4 was insane

Ironically, I kind of liked the snowshoe shield and bought 1 from him. 5 years later, I have never used it, but I did restrap it like a mini-kite and gave it to my 3-year-old son.

dukelogan wrote:but they are not "wonderfully period". what was common in period was that the fighters of the day would decide who was the most inspiring amongst them. often that was the one that received the second most valued prize in the tourney, sometime the most valued prize. but this was decided amongst those that competed against each other. .

[/quote]
That is not completely accurate, time and place have a great deal to do with what determines the outcome of the day/days events.
Sir John Tiptofs ordinances of 1466 set out a scoring system for points earned, and points taken away for disqualifying incidents.
The outcome was determined by the marshals keeping track of points earned and points deducted.
There are examples of "Ladiesâ€

earldrake wrote:Hey all,

Worse= An event where you must wager your lady each fight. Really. Your lady. If you won several rounds you had a harem I guess.

Hell No. I would rather shove needles into my nards.

What kind of churl would invent such a format?

earldrake wrote:2nd Worse= ANY ladies whimsy list. (ladies picked your weapons and anything else you did during the combat, ie jumping on on foot, blindfolded, etc...)
Drake

Yeah, those are bad too.

I find that organizational issues tend to irritate me more than almost anything else. If the list isn't run well, I don't have a good time.

Also, I tend to get surly if I don't actually get to fight, or if I travel a long way, and then get to fight the guys from my local group, and nobody else.

And, there has to be something better than a double elim format. Two and out can be really demoralizing for a new person/

f

"What kind of churl would invent such a format?"

I don’t know who was responsible but it has historic precedent.
Although its not like you got to keep her
You would lead your lady to the field, if you were beaten your opponent had the honor of leading her off.

A "pie-plate" tourney

One foot had to be kept on a 10" circle, step off you yeild.

And remarkabley, the people that set it up all used warboards and short sword......

Sucked to fight with anything but sword and board....

Worst tourney ever, eh?
Each year at our big local event we have an unbelted-only tournament, which typically draws a pretty big crowd. This particular year, it was around 50. It was a bit rainy, so someone decided that it was UNSAFE for us to fight in the open in the 4 tourney aerics, and moved us instead to the 30x40 royal pavilion. So, 50+/- fighters, plus spectators, plus assorted support staff in a 30x40 pavilion in a rainstorm.
That would have been bad enough, but someone had the genius idea of having a 'best heralds' contest as a side line to the tourney, with the heralds competing to see who could herald in the fighters in the most showy and verbose way (think Knight's Tale).
Everyone crowded in as best they could, with us fighters generally making space for the spectators and standing out in the rain.
THREE HOURS LATER, I am still standing there just outside the pavilion, soaked to the bone and shivering in my armor, waiting to be called for the *first* round. The list is down to the end, and apparently I'm going to be the last pairing.
Then I hear the herald call "Thus ends the first round! As we prepare for the second round, Sir <deleted> and Baron <deleted> will fight an exhibition match!"
I walked over to the list table and said "Um, I didn't get called". Mind you, this is in my barony, and the list mistress was a good friend. Also at the list table was the Baroness (the sponsor of the tourney and also a good friend) who I was champion to at the time. She said "What? You fought the last fight, a bye against Baron <deleted>, right?". I said no, and pointed to the aeric where aforementioned Baron was busy ending his exhibition match.
She said "We'll figure this out" just as the fight ended and the herald stepped up and started "The pairings for the second round are..."
Knowing that I was right at the bitter end of my patience, I stood up straight and said in a clear voice "Your excelency, I must tender my appologies at being unable to compete in your tournamnet this day. Mistress <list>, please remove me from the tournament rolls." I then turned and walked back to my encampment, where I dropped all of my armor in a steaming pile in the rain, went in my yurt and got warm, dry, and most importantly, calm and collected.

white mountain armoury wrote:I don’t know who was responsible but it has historic precedent.
Although its not like you got to keep her
You would lead your lady to the field, if you were beaten your opponent had the honor of leading her off.

I know this wasnt your idea but um..no. I have fought for girlfriends and friends who were girls but the idea of allowing anyone else to "lead her off" without my being actually dead or so wounded as to be completely incapable of movement makes me want to vomit. I know its just a game but even in games certain lines will not be crossed by me. This is one of the reasons I hate standard SCA tourney.

the real issues are that we allow non-fighters to come up with bullshit they think is "fun" to watch or somehow "cool" or whatever.

i would rather we fight. we contest. we challenge each other.

the whole concept of this "honor the one whose favor you bear: is so silly to me. i have never fought in the sca for anyone but me. i challenge myself. nobody else. i dont fight for anyones honor. i assume each person i fight is a person of character and that we are both engaging in equal combat. its a contest, nothing more. if someone wants to challenge my honor as a man then let me know and you and i can go off to the side and lets, by all means, bleed. challenge my womans honor and i will let her deal with you. shes a redneck broad that is into that nascar crap and she doesnt "hit like a bitch".

but this whole idea of creating our sport as some kind of silly fun thing to watch is beyond me. lets fight. the best man will be the winner and that is what it is. why screw with something so pure??

regards
logan

dukelogan wrote:
but this whole idea of creating our sport as some kind of silly fun thing to watch is beyond me. lets fight. the best man will be the winner and that is what it is. why screw with something so pure??

regards
logan

It's a fine line though....
Because the SCA is not, nor has it ever been just about the fighting. Nor should it be. Capturing the past, which included heraldry, pomp, courtesy, chivalry...those things are important.

We do agree that tourneys devised by non-fighters, or silly games created to make us look like fools are stupid and pointless. But SCA fighting is about so much more than just 'the contest'. There are many, many areas for people to compete in if competition is all that they crave.

I disagree that fighting need not be enjoyable and entertaining for the spectators however. We have lost so much of our culture to expediency and the attendance at our tourneys of spectators, ladies, heralds has dwindled away...Leaving two men standing in the middle of a bare field, alone in their contest.

That is not the SCA that I joined, nor have fostered and loved for nearly 20 years. It bores the hell out of me (to strip away all ceremony). And I’m not alone. Nearly anyone even cares about our fighting, except the day of Crown, when they wish to see who will be inflicted on them for six months. It's shameful that we have let our standards fall so low.

What can be done? Education and fostering of our new members. They are the future of the society and they will shape it into their needs. If other groups do a better job at that, then in ten years we will be a minority of grey haired men, striving in contests that no one cares about. Chivalry will be quaint heirloom of an older time.

Huh. That might be the most medieval thing we actually ever do....