The Armour Archive

So I made a 13th century helm cause they look cool without thinking too much about the rest of the kit, now I'm having a bit of trouble with the chainmail that goes with it. It was great to read so many people wear chainmail but I was basically told today at the SCA tourny I went to that it is definately preferable to fight in plate. I know I will have to have pretty heavy duty chainmail just to make sure it does not come to pieces under the strikes but I would appreciate peoples honest oppinion about using chainmail. Does it hinder you compared to other comabtants who are wearing different armour? Is the chainmail wearing at a disadvantage for wearing it? Apparently the cons far outway the pros for wearing chainmail and I am at the stage of putting my 13th century idea aside (for awhile anyway) and going plate armour. Feel free to throw in your thoughts.

Wyrm.

First off, get riveted if you can; it will hold up dramatically better. It will also be lighter. Constant maintainance sucks on butted.

That said, mail will generally be heavier than equivalent plate; my Lorica Hamata weighs about 10 pounds more than my Lorica Segmentata. It does move better, though. And it looks cool.

Combine them both...

I'm kind of in the middle when it comes down to protection and looking period. I think you should go for what is period, while keeping a certain level of protection in mind. Do the 13th century crusader, but underneath the hauberk and gambeson, wear light plates or plastic padded with blue foam. You could even wear crusaders knees and elbows. I think as long as you don't intend to show it or tell people that your suit is period, then you're ok. I mean, SCA fighting isn't really a show-every-aspect-of-your-suit-to-everyone-that-walks-by kind of thing. You're not going to stop someone and go, "Hey! Look at my period helm liner!" It's more of a spectator sport, so make it look good, but please protect yourself. Remember- this isn't back in the day when you're fighting against blades, you're fighting with wooden clubs.

My suggestion is wear the greathelm, hauberk, a coif, and under the coif wear a gorget (of any material, but since you're already wearing heavy stuff, you may want a leather/plastic one), wear a kidney/tummy belt under the hauberk, steel knees and elbows, and you may want some more hidden bits every here and there.

And try to make the hauberk riveted too. It just looks, functions, and holds up to stress better.

Pros: Chain mail looks cool. Moves real well. Makes cool noises. Fits your time period.
Cons: Doesnt do DICK against blunt force.
Chain is pretty, but for rattan combat it's added weight with no protection.
If that doesnt bother you then go for it. Looking good is cool. Heck I fought in chain for years. But if you want to be efficient then go for plate. It's up to you the end result you want. Chain doesnt protect nearly as well against a blow as plate would but if you're ok with that then do your thing mate.
Animal
"Hold my sword while I kiss your girlfriend"

Hey Wyrmspleen, I guess the beauty of the SCA is that you can be whatever you want to be and wear whatever you want to wear. Let, your wallet, desire and attention to periodness be your guide.
I started out as an early 13th C Englishman but I found the Gambeson, sir coat etc. was not to good in the Ga. heat and I also hated having my greathelm used as a rattan landing pad since it has no glancing surfaces. So now I am a late 14thC Englishman in a CoP and a bascinet.
I guess I am trying to say wear what you like and later you may want to change but let the decision be up to you.

Bah. I say that mail rocketh like Captain Spock.

Tell them that if they should be desirous of instruction on the matter, all they need do is make my passport to your fair island and I will be right blithe to go deeply into the matter with them.

BUT...

That said. Yes. There is a weight disadvantage. Mediate it by going with rivited mail, which is lighter. And be in shape. And then later on, get a welded titanium hauberk from Master Knuut. And by then you should be hell on wheels, for all of that carrying an extra twenty-five pounds of hauberk.

Throughout your career you will be given much advice which is false--this stress on expediency is a sort of falseness, in my mind, for it says to you: "Nay, man, it is no good thing to strive to portray a 13th century man at arms as he would have been! Do this instead, wear this expedient protection and be competetive!"

I have said it before, and will say it again: our sport is like no other, for it is equal parts art, and culture, and physical prowess. Neglect any to the detriment of your enjoyment.

But then also, many men at arms spend years fighting their armor, before they can be of any account at all. It is hazardous to offer advice, for we so frequently are poor in understanding of our own situations.

I think that it is possible to strike the line between all compromises.

One last bit: I believe that many hauberk wearers go a bit overboard with the gambeson, to their detriment.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

Jehan de Pelham wrote:I think that it is possible to strike the line between all compromises.

One last bit: I believe that many hauberk wearers go a bit overboard with the gambeson, to their detriment.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

what do you mean go overboard with the gambeson???

The only way I can see around this problem is to have a medium weight hauberk, a lightweight gambeson and hidden plastic underneath plates covering specified areas.

Some folks have too puffy a gambeson, so they go "Pilsbury Doughboy," overheating and being too encumbered by it. Sure, rattan can sting, but it's not an iron mace--it doesn't crush and maim everything it touches. A kind of *lightly* quilted (or even just double thick fabric) coat with pockets for plates and padding in the required locations, made so they stay where they need to stay, is sufficient, in my opinion. Your pain threshold may say otherwise.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

Wyrmspleen wrote:So I made a 13th century helm cause they look cool without thinking too much about the rest of the kit, now I'm having a bit of trouble with the chainmail that goes with it. It was great to read so many people wear chainmail but I was basically told today at the SCA tourny I went to that it is definately preferable to fight in plate. I know I will have to have pretty heavy duty chainmail just to make sure it does not come to pieces under the strikes but I would appreciate peoples honest oppinion about using chainmail. Does it hinder you compared to other comabtants who are wearing different armour? Is the chainmail wearing at a disadvantage for wearing it?
Wyrm.

Not sure about how chain wears. Only one person in my group wears it. The chainmail being of the rivited variety. He wears steel lamellar over it.
I know there are people out there that wear just the chain. I can only assume that they have some kind of hidden plates/padding at key places.

What you could do is make a cuirie to go over the chain. It's a simple leather cuir-bouilli breast and back plate that is worn over the mail and under the surcoat.
I couldn't find the effigy showing this, but did find this:
http://users.wpi.edu/~dev_alac/iqp/indepth/historyofarmor.html

Edit: Found it! It's in the Cuir-bouilli section of "Leather and the Warrior". I'd really like to find a better and more pictures of it.
http://urswerks.homeip.net/pictures/cuirie.png

The Increasing Integration of Plate (c. 1250 - 1300)
From the end of the 12th century, there are references to a rigid defense known as a cuirie or cuirass (Edge and Paddock 1998, 56). The term cuirie first appears in texts of the third quarter of the 12th century, and occurs frequently until the middle of the 14th. It is almost certainly synonymous with cuirass, a term first recorded in an inventory of the effects of Eudes, Comte de Nevers, drawn up after his death in 1266. The cuirass was a defense for the torso, worn between the surcoat and hauberk. It was often made of leather, and was rigid enough for the guard-chains for the helm and sword to be attached to it, suggesting it was made from cuir-bouilli (a hardened form of leather, derived from the French term cuir, meaning leather). It was sometimes reinforced with metal plates, sometimes lined with fabric, and sometimes had arm-defenses of leather or possibly quilted cloth. The cuirie, or cuirass, is shown on two English monuments, one from the Temple Church in London and the other from Pershore Abbey, Worcestershire, both of which date to the 1260s. By the 15th century, cuirass referred to the metal breast- and backplates taken as a single unit (Blair 1958, 38, Edge and Paddock 1998, 57).

This is what I'm eventually planning to have as my armour as well as a lamellar curiass.[/url]

hear these words of truth:

Plate is good.
Chain is good.
Plate reinforced with chain is good.

I fight in plate: some mobility issues. Less bruising. High maintanence.
I fight in riveted chain: high mobility. Weight not a significant issue. W/ gambeson, surprisingly good protection.
I fight in plate with chain reinforcment. I am the god of medieval coolness incarnate. Chain makes plate more comfortable, but my kit is too heavy and it gets hard on my knees.

Titanium chain: feh. I mean, its neat and all, but I just couldn't be proud of wearing majically light armour. Wear real armour.

where are these people who are crazy, ahem I mean dedicated enough to make these riveted chainmail hauberks and how much will they sell me one for.

Wyrmspleen wrote:where are these people who are crazy, ahem I mean dedicated enough to make these riveted chainmail hauberks and how much will they sell me one for.

Steven of Forth Castle with Forth Armouries makes some beautiful riveted maile. His proces are a tad steep, but you are definately getting what you pay for. His site is linked to the Archive.

Some folks have too puffy a gambeson, so they go "Pilsbury Doughboy," overheating and being too encumbered by it. Sure, rattan can sting, but it's not an iron mace--it doesn't crush and maim everything it touches. A kind of *lightly* quilted (or even just double thick fabric) coat with pockets for plates and padding in the required locations, made so they stay where they need to stay, is sufficient, in my opinion. Your pain threshold may say otherwise.
Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

The idea is to pad bones. Put vambraces on.. cover your collar bones.. if you fight against spears make SURE you have something rigid over your sternum.. (I saw one get cracked once). Other than that, bruises heal and chicks dig scars!

Its unlikely you are going to get much more than a cracked rib from even the most excessive side shot with a pole.. but rattan on bone can, and will, break rigid ones. (clavicle, collar bone, radius and ulna..)

Be safe, but fight in what you want! Putting chain OVEr plate seems kinda silly to me.. I'd be more likely to go with something like a Cherburg center plate over the squishiest bits, and learn to block, otherwise.

A good sized GOrget.. made of leather, that comes down and extends out to the sides is a lot of protection.

just my .02, I used to fight in what was basically society minimums at one point..

Maeryk

I definitely agree with the gorget. A dog-collar style gorget does nothing to assist with the collar bones.

Reagrding the weight and design of armor: Try and get a full 14th or 15th century plate armor replica in mild steel in a gauge sufficient to resist being beaten to ridiculously ugly in a short time, to weigh less than a comparable armor from the 14th or 15th century. Carbon steel or titanium is the answer.

Any discussion of SCA armor almost always draws into sharp focus the differences between what we do in modern combat recreation and what practices were in earlier times. Some things to think about:

1. The wealthy could replace their armor more often than we are willing to.
2. The kinds of weapons that medieval armor withstood were different than we use.
3. The materials which most medieval armor was made of is different than we use.
4. The rewards and penalties of medieval combat with arms of peace were different than what we are interested in accepting.
5. To a certain extent, your skill determines how much you have to protect.

Our armor in essence, if it were perfect, from the standpoint of the weekly (sometimes more than weekly) fighter practices we do, and our limited recreation budgets, would be light enough that it wouldn't hurt our knees, protective enough that injury is so rare as to not even be discussed, strong enough that it wouldn't be bent and dented by rattan weapons (or rebated steel, for those who go that route), and immune to corrosion. If it were so, then we could begin to replicate the state of affairs that most gentlemen at arms in the second estate were able to attain, with a retinue of varlets to polish and maintain their armor, and wealth enough to simply replace and hand down armor which began to look shabby.

Much to think on. I don't claim to have the answer, only a solution that works for me: I use titanium because it works for my idiom.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

Most people make too heavy maille for combat. When I see #40 and up, thats getting excessive. A well made hauberk should weigh in around #30.
My Stainless shirt is #27 and I have yet to loose a ring in combat. and its NOT rivited...
Unless its welded or rivited, maille made from mild steel will fall apart. Its just to soft. Sure, its cheap wire. You get what you pay for.
Maille reduses all sorts of injuries. All those unarmored bits will thank you for having maille over them.


Sven

I'd keep the suit for steel fighting. There are a growing number of groups that do this, though you might have to do some traveling (like to ENGLAND).

For SCA combat, there is an unfortunate reason that the majority of the fighters look like crap: our rules do not allow you the benefits of wearing real armor- only the disadvantages.

One thing the SCA has going for it is that you can "bring it on". You can go full speed, full power and your opponent will not get dead or maimed. It is the one group where you can really compete.

There are some alternative armors for a 13th century armor. A big gambeson comes to mind. Long sleeve surcoats. Padded cuisses with poleyns and mail shin protectors (for looks).

Like everyone else is saying, mail looks good, and I encourage you to wear it for that reason. If it were me, though, I'd wear the full rig only on special occasions and in the future, for fighter practice.

It's a great training aid, because if you get used to wearing the weight of mail and are able to fight decently, think how well you'll do without a 40 lb weight belt on!

But, if you're just getting started, you are going to get waxed. Don't make it worse by weighing yourself down in armor you're not used to. I'd get a big heater shield and practice in some decent lighter weight armor. When you get to the point where you are able to get some kills in regularly, then it's time to get a smaller, aluminum shield. When you get to the point where you're getting some kills regularly with that, make another sword. (Your first sword will be much heavier than those of your cohorts because you don't know how to make one yet)

When you get to where you are getting *good* with the sword and shield, then it is time to make new armor...training armor.

Get back in the shop and make a shield that is slightly smaller (in all dimensions) than your aluminum one, and make it slightly heavier. Cover it with canvas, double edge it, whatever it takes. This will build up your shield holding muscles. Make a new sword that is lighter than your newer sword, but just as long. If that's not possible (because you did such a good job on the last one) make it heavier.

Now, take your heavier sword and heavier (and smaller) shield and get your mail back out. This is your training armor. Use this for fighter practice and those events and demos where it is better to look your best.

Get your lighter rig and tuck it away. This is your game armor. Protect it and keep it in good repair. Make it pretty, light and comfortable. Look at period illustrations of knights and choose contemporary aspects of those you like and are adaptable to SCA combat.

Good luck!

Wyrmspleen wrote:Does it hinder you compared to other comabtants who are wearing different armour? Is the chainmail wearing at a disadvantage for wearing it? Apparently the cons far outway the pros for wearing chainmail and I am at the stage of putting my 13th century idea aside (for awhile anyway) and going plate armour.

This is the beginning question to solving your dilemma: Are you trying to look and act like a 13th century knight, or do you want the armor which gives you the best advantage?

If you want to portray a 13th cenury knight, you will try to make your equipment as accurate as possible, and learn how to play the game in that gear. Paint the helm appropriately, make a new helm based on Veldeke's 'Eneit' miniature of Vulcan at the forge, go for mail - then riveted mail - then mail with the appropriate style of rivet, etc. If you want to wear the most competitive armor, you will want a Wisby CoP, then replace the plates with titanium or plastic to "lighten up", get a helm with a glancing top, then add lots of bars so you can see and breath, ignore historic examples if they make you less competitive, etc.

Which game do you want to play?

Trevor! Bingo! You nailed it right on the head! Rattan combat for all it's faults is the one thing I've ever seen that lets you go balls out. So, just as armor of the day was adapted to the best use of available technology so must we at least give thought to doing the same. Not only are the weapons different of course, but I'm wondering if we dont fight wuite a bit more than our predecessors did. I dont know, I'm guessing there, but I've fought in 21 or 22 wars, on foot in the thick of the shit. Is that more or less than the soldiers of the day? That might be a factor in why we as hobbyists need to increase our abilities not just to survive combat but to enable us to fight often without risk of major harm. I mean, as seriously as I take this it's still a game after all. To think of it otherwise is to lose touch with reality and that's dangerous.
I love chainmail and fought in it for years. I never wore a gambeson except twice and I hated it both times. I was young enough back then to heal from the wounds I took but I swear I am wearing more armor now than I ever did as a pup. I love the look of authentic armor best but as one who fights and fights often I also support wearing whatever you need to wear to insure you can come back next week so I can hit you again. Know what I'm saying?

No way the SCA is the only venue for full-speed, full-force, full-contact medieval combat simulation. Go look at what the AEMMA is doing. They even get to grapple. The SCA is stick-tag by comparison.

That said, until the AEMMA opens a branch near me, I must content myself with the SCA, in all its err....glories(?)...

Thankyou for your feedback. I'd actually like to make a reasonable compromise between making an authentic looking set of 13th century gear (NOT the fanatic living history display walk-around-in-a-park-being-a-museum-replica-piece showing the same way sir whatsaname peened the rivet on his right sabaton) and to fight competatively in a modern recreation of medieval combat. Theres been a few good posts but for me I think it basically comes down to something along the lines of what Jehan de Pelham said in their first post:

"Throughout your career you will be given much advice which is false--this stress on expediency is a sort of falseness, in my mind, for it says to you: "Nay, man, it is no good thing to strive to portray a 13th century man at arms as he would have been! Do this instead, wear this expedient protection and be competetive!"

I have said it before, and will say it again: our sport is like no other, for it is equal parts art, and culture, and physical prowess. Neglect any to the detriment of your enjoyment."

Thanks for your suggestions again.

Wyrm,

Bravo! I think you have reached a reasonable decision (in fact, the same as I was trying to steer you towards) despite the confusion caused by my post. The SCA is not a "lving history" game, but there are still choices about trying to present a "medieval" appearance versus playing to win "at all costs".

To clarify my previous post, I merely note that anyone who stays in the game for any length of time usually ends up upgrading their equipment by necessity or desire. The question is which model will you use for such upgrades, this

http://www.yale.edu/german/whobrey/veldeckems.html

or this?

http://www.bokalosarmoury.com/full%20pa ... /HE030.HTM

I think your current helm is much closer to the first path than the second, and apologize if my mis-communication angered you.

Ernst

no no, I'm not angry, its all good and thankyou for your response. As for upgrades, once I've done this 13th century stuff I'm going to eventually go 15th century full plate and hopefully get that menacing looking barbute I've wanted to make since I came to the archive... I love barbutes and I'm still waiting for someone to out a pattern up on the archive on how to make one.. [hint hint anyone reading this]

Wyrm.

Animal wrote:So, just as armor of the day was adapted to the best use of available technology so must we at least give thought to doing the same... I love the look of authentic armor best but as one who fights and fights often I also support wearing whatever you need to wear to insure you can come back next week so I can hit you again. Know what I'm saying?

Yep. But, if the rules were such that we were rewarded, rather than punished, for wearing The Real Thing, then I think that the average Joe Fighter would be wearing better looking stuff than what we have now.

For me, if *everyone* were required to wear steel, I would wear a full suit in a heartbeat. There are plenty of period suits that are more than protective enough for what we do, but if I were to wear one of them then I would be at a competitive disadvantage.

So, I am coerced to apply some creative camoflaging to my kydex so I can have an authentic looking suit, without the weight of steel. I don't particularly care for it, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna get my ass kicked by some guy wearing a spun dome and football pads.

As for Wyrmspleen, I applaud him for making a decision that is right for him. I just hope that he doesn't get discouraged by trying out a new sport with gear that makes him less competitive than those who don't hold the same esthetic standards as he has.

Joaquin wrote:No way the SCA is the only venue for full-speed, full-force, full-contact medieval combat simulation. Go look at what the AEMMA is doing. They even get to grapple. The SCA is stick-tag by comparison.

That said, until the AEMMA opens a branch near me, I must content myself with the SCA, in all its err....glories(?)...

I hear ya, bro. I looked at the AEMMA site, and was impressed. I would LOVE to do what they're doing. So why are you waiting for the AEMMA to open a branch? Why don't you do it for them? (hint hint)

Actually, if you will look at your 12th and 13th Centuries sources you will find plenty of examples of men at arms fighting in arms, legs, helm and a gambeson. The chain would go over this, but with the right gambeson, and surcoat, and the necessary protection out of sight, I think that you could have a good looking harness, without the mail.

When you want to fight well, and not get overly tired, you leave the mail off. When you want to look like you walked right out of the 13th Century, then you add the maile, and take the performance hit. Or, you get to the point where you are beating everyone else with the maile. It's been known to happen.

Rivetted maile is definitely the way to do, if you can afford it. I plan on making some of mine own.