Shields

[lyonnete]

A huge sheild makes a man look foolhardy. It allows equipment to be substituted for skill. Although many skilled fighters wear large shields, from the sidelines their skill is covered, and renown lessened.

I wouldn't use a large heater if you paid me.

[St. George]

Not even if it were $50,000 to fight Cuan- you have to use a large shield.

Alaric

[FrauHirsch]

Regarding Caidan shield rules:

There used to be a weight limit, which encouraged people not to use large shields because they had to be heavier than stones. However the weight limit was removed, and mostly it is peer pressure that discourages the use of "war shields" in the lists.

Edward,

One can be quite aggressive with one's shield in the SCA, one just cannot hit another persons "body" with it, however shield against shield and shield against weapon are all ok. I use hooks and presses all the time.

I am a short person so therefore "short armed" myself and I don't find I need a war shield to be moderately successful in one-on-one combat (age, asthma, physical shape and practice have far more affect on my fighting than shield size.) I prefer a heater in the lists - approximately Hip width for me at the top and from chin to groin (which ends up for a female roughly equivalent to a men's shoulder to shoulder, neck to groin ratio).

I like our ovalish arm-rigged kites for warfare (not center grip).

-J

[muttman]

I use a 22X44in. slightly curved kite shield the same shape as that of Duke Lucan. Kite is the dominant style in the region I live and it is what I have always trained with. My shield is made from pretty hefty highway alluminum with reenforced lead edge at the hand, counterbalance reenforement on the opposite corner, and ballast reenforcement on the lower tip. Add to that a pretty hefty steel shield basket and hefty heater hose and its not as light as one would think. Its actualy one of the heavier shields around. It is painted black with white crenelations around the edge, a white Northern Army star in the middle, and a black raven in the middle of the star. I am proud of my shield because it reflects the traditions created by some of my role models in the society who came before me- Master Feral von Halstern, Duke Lucan von Dracenklaue, my knight Sir Lothar von Halstern and many others. I am proud of the heraldry on my shield because it represents The Great Northen Army, of which I am a soldier, and the raven is my own bit of individuality as part of said army. I plan on upholding the traditions of my army and lineage by continuing to use this shield and teaching my students the same. Does this size shield give me some advantages over smaller ones? Yes, some. Does it limet me in some ways that smaller ones don`t? Again, yes. It doesn`t matter. I have been beaten by guys using bucklers and have beaten guys using plastic barn doors. I have beaten guys using kites while I used a small round. Shield size doesn`t matter a whole lot. Its just a matter of what you find yourself best with. I have trained with a kite (almost) exclusivly since (then) Master Lucan put one in my hand fourteen years ago. That is what I know, that is what I will continue to use. If someone thinks its unfair because of the size, come do pick ups with me. I will show them the angles and slots that kite guys tend to have or can be made to have if they ask and all I ask in return is to be educated on how to better fight what they are using. I will likely offer to trade with them for a few bouts just so I can try something new. Theres very little I won`t try at least once (except madus which I consider a cheap weapons form that shouldn`t be used based on our presumed armor standard and there non rataan counterpart)
BTW, I`m also a fan of using gear appropriate to persona as much as possible. My persona is that of a mid tenth cent. Saxon Dane recently in the employ of the Byzantines. My weapons reflect that as much as possible in profile, as does my armor. I am also in the midst of making a few 30in centergripped rounds to train myself and my students with for more well roundedly accurate portrayals.
As a "big shield user" I just wanted to pipe in and give some of my own thoughts to this thread.
Lord Drefan Ravenson
Squire to Sir Lothar von Halstern
House Silver Dragon-Drachenfahnlien
Great Northern Army
East
BTW, I use the same shield for singles and melees.

[broinnfinn]

In Calontir the shield size it determined by arm length. If you can put the shield under your arm and curl your fingers around the oposite end then you can use it in Crown tourney. That way the shields will be pretty proportionate to the fighter no matter what size.

<BUZZER>

Nope - for some of the same reasons that FrauHirsch outlined. I still HAVE my Calontir Crown-legal wankel, and it is smaller than those for the men my size. Our arms are a bit proportionally shorter on the average, and femurs longer. The only plus was that my shield was SO small that it fell under the size necessary for the weight requirements to take effect. I had one marshal pick it up, and say "too light" and I said "measure it". He was surprised.

I am not bitching or calling discrimination - I was pretty good with it. Just pointing out that the rule does not ensure proportionality.

Broinnfinn

[BdeB]

I have been trying a number of different ways to get canvas to not get torn off of my shield after a few practices. Someone mentioned that I need to put more jesso on the canvas, and then a few layers of shellac or similar once I am done to further strengthen it. I have thought about using leather as a base instead, but am not ready to give up on canvas yet.

Your Grace ,

A number of us here have had success with this method. (The shield look good for about 3-6 months). We use pre-gessoed painters canvas available from any art store. (The stuff you can buy from Michael's or Ben Franklin is thinner and doesn't last as long as the professional stuff that you buy by the yard). I use 3M's spray 77 on the face of the shield and the back of the canvas and get some one to help me place the cover on. (The good thing about this is if you get a line or bubble you can either smooth it out by hand or just pull up the canvas and re stretch it.)

After painting it, I coat the shield with two to three spray coats of Krylon Clear Coat Acyrlic Spray. This acts as a varnish and toughens up the canvas a bit.

If you get small nicks and tears you can always touch up paint, or use a little of the spray glue to tack back down L shaped tears.

Regards,
Byram

[broinnfinn]

Your Grace ,

A number of us here have had success with this method. (The shield look good for about 3-6 months). We use pre-gessoed painters canvas available from any art store. (The stuff you can buy from Michael's or Ben Franklin is thinner and doesn't last as long as the professional stuff that you buy by the yard). I use 3M's spray 77 on the face of the shield and the back of the canvas and get some one to help me place the cover on. (The good thing about this is if you get a line or bubble you can either smooth it out by hand or just pull up the canvas and re stretch it.)

After painting it, I coat the shield with two to three spray coats of Krylon Clear Coat Acyrlic Spray. This acts as a varnish and toughens up the canvas a bit.

If you get small nicks and tears you can always touch up paint, or use a little of the spray glue to tack back down L shaped tears.

Regards,
Byram

I use almost exactly the same method on mine, except I do the final coat with spray-on polyurethane.

Broinnfinn

[FrauHirsch]

If you get small nicks and tears you can always touch up paint, or use a little of the spray glue to tack back down L shaped tears.

Regards,
Byram

I use almost exactly the same method on mine, except I do the final coat with spray-on polyurethane.

Broinnfinn

We have always just painted several coats of white glue over the top and its been fine. Our shields haven't torn on the face at all (only my husbands where the canvas went over the edging), even using rebated steel.

Just be sure all the bubbles are out when applying. Then let each top coat dry thoroughly before applying the next.

Then paint over the top of that.

-J

[FrauHirsch]

In Calontir the shield size it determined by arm length. If you can put the shield under your arm and curl your fingers around the oposite end then you can use it in Crown tourney. That way the shields will be pretty proportionate to the fighter no matter what size.

<BUZZER>

Nope - for some of the same reasons that FrauHirsch outlined. I still HAVE my Calontir Crown-legal wankel, and it is smaller than those for the men my size.

Broinnfinn

I have have seen a huge variety of arm length and even torso length differences in men (as a costumer I notice), so I think it would be hard to really come up with a completely fair limitation. I liked the weight minimums actually. It may not have been realistic, but few were willing to use big heavy slow shields.

So far peer pressure is working pretty well around here.

We flat out tell new fighters that it is considered bad form to use a huge shield in the lists and they pretty much pay attention.

-J

[FrauHirsch]

I am not bitching or calling discrimination - I was pretty good with it. Just pointing out that the rule does not ensure proportionality.

Broinnfinn

I was more annoyed at having to spend the time and money on a shield that was not practical nor realistic looking. It would be a good size for your average 10 yr old, but it is still pretty heavy because the old weight minimums were still in place, so I can't even give it away as a boffer shield. I still have it in my garage. And worse it is painted with an obsolete device....

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Amen, Dilan.
Amen.

[dukedrake]

Hi all,

Although not exactly sticking to the exact subject of this thread...
Sheild size obviously make a bit of difference within a fight (mainly trading off a bit of defense for greater offensive flexibility, and vice versa). However, in my opinion, far more important and effective defensive factors are:

Footwork

Offensive effectiveness (at least 2 subfactors here include 1. your reputation and ability making your foe wary about attacking, and 2. the ability to defeat your opponent beore he has an opportunity to coordinate any offense of his own).

"Field Generalship" the ability to continually reposition yourself at optimal ranges and angles.

...and several other things that may be named later by me or others.


Looking forward to see ya'll at Gulf!

Drake

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

Hi all,

Although not exactly sticking to the exact subject of this thread...
Sheild size obviously make a bit of difference within a fight (mainly trading off a bit of defense for greater offensive flexibility, and vice versa). However, in my opinion, far more important and effective defensive factors are (SNIP)

Spoken like a true Ansteorran

Gulf Wars is the reason we got rid of our maximum shield sizes. We decided that having tourny shields much smaller than our foes was a significant disadvantage and so far that seems to be holding true. Our fighters have a gained a lot more skill and understanding in defeating giant shields. At the same time, centergrips have set the town on fire and are leading to more emphasis on footwork and less emphasis on blow mechanics. Our whole kingdom fighting style is in flux, as is much of the SCA.

[dukedrake]

Heh, we are having that "fluxy feeling" in these parts as well. Most higher level fighters in the kingdom are having fun experimenting with non-2x3 sheilds as well. Heck, we are knighting JP and he can't even SPELL heater! I have been having a lot of fun with a 12" buckler, although admittely not as proficient in it's use as I am with my 2x3.
BTW, Your Grace, hoping to steal a bit of time to discuss fighting concepts again, if you have a chance. It appears I will be somewhat busy during Gulf (assisting in plotting ya'lls downfall of course ), but would definitely make time! Hey Odo, I think we met 8 years ago at this very event (you, Kurn, Taka, Kerdude, Llew, etc...) looking forward to catching up with ya. I might even be brave enough to let ya smack at me with that billy club you call a sword...

Drake

[dukedrake]

OH, Gaston...if ya'll need any assistance in learning how to use those big mean ol' sheilds, I can come up with some really...uhh...interesting and...different stuff for you to try during the War this year!



Signed,

Duke Jean Richard Malcomson

[Jean Paul de Sens]

Heh, we are having that "fluxy feeling" in these parts as well. Most higher level fighters in the kingdom are having fun experimenting with non-2x3 sheilds as well. Heck, we are knighting JP and he can't even SPELL heater! I have been having a lot of fun with a 12" buckler, although admittely not as proficient in it's use as I am with my 2x3.
--snip--
Drake

Heater? That's those things you use at Gulf Wars when you get rained on to dry out your clothes, right?

[dukedrake]

...Drake gives JP a cookie...
That's right lil' feller, now run along and plan your Vigil...

[Jehan de Pelham]

In truth, my own heater is in violation of what would have been used by a man at arms in the era I portray. By the 1380s, the shield was a vestigial thing, and about 19" wide x 24" tall in size at its largest (if used at all). Plate defenses were very strong, certes, a man could well nigh ignore a sword, unless it be half sworded into a mail gusset or an opening of some sort.

My current shield, the one I use in SCA combat, is 19" wide by 33" tall, and I say here openly that it is an SCA-ism, an adaptation to the current SCA combat environment. It is on the small side for an SCA heater, but it is still too large, in my opinion. Perhaps what would be more appropriate would be to force myself into the smaller shield, by means of a courageously wielded jigsaw. I need to re-evaluate the strapping of my current shield, so perhaps now is the time to re-evaluate the size of it also.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

[Edward de la Pole]

Regarding Caidan shield rules:

Edward,

One can be quite aggressive with one's shield in the SCA, one just cannot hit another persons "body" with it, however shield against shield and shield against weapon are all ok. I use hooks and presses all the time.

-J

I used to fight Galadon all of the time. He had about 4" reach on me and he was a bit taller. The best way for me to deal with him was to wedge my shield into his sword arm shoulder very hard and beat the crap out of him

I body slammed him a few times too One time I threw him over my knee completely airbourne with his 125# of armour, and then landed on him WWF style I dislocated his shoulder that time, he made me fight when I didn't want to, I was too tired and didn't want to prolong the fight. Most fun he'd had in a while.

I LIKE to hit people in the body with my shield (as long as they are armed for it), it screws with their focus It was Padraic who was fighting with me for my authorization when I slammed him good and then realized he only had a gambeson on.... oops

[white mountain armoury]

i prefer a small centergrip but have a heater as well, its 19X25, its made from curved birch inside a frame of 15 ga welded steel channel, edged in siloflex. It weighs 7 lbs and to me seems very light. It also seems to be similar in size to what was pictured in illuminations etc.
I get a little sick of seeing huge doors but its not my decision what others use.
Personally to large a shield robs me of a certain amount of offence. a lage strapped shield that much more.

[DWolfhunter]

Kingdom standards say that our shields may measure shoulder -to-shoulder and chin-to crotch on it user. I fight with a heater that size...but I also fight with a 24" and a 30" round shield. Why?
Because I believe that I cannot hide behind a big shield and not move if I want to fight well. I believe in active blocking. Block to the blow ... the small rounds are very good for "punch blocking". The heater is my primary sheild for battles and melees. Because the tactics of war are not the tactics of tournament.
For Crown , the a few kings have decreed that shields have to be "spannable" meaning basically that they cannot have a circumference longer than the holder's arm from armpit to fingertip. This is an artificial standard not mirrored in AE's laws, that pisses people off . Why have an alternate standard for Crown that does not exist the rest of the time? becuase it's cosmetically "nicer" . FEH!!

Hamish

[Saint-Sever]

Re: fabric coverings for shields--

Slapping more gesso onto the shield face (assuming you're using modern "gesso", which is basically thick, opaque acrylic paint used as a combination size and ground for fine-art painting-- period gesso is a different gig entirely, and is more like Bondo when used in period shield construction) will give you some added resistance vs. rips and tears, but not a whole lot. Acrylic gesso stays flexible, even after drying, so shots from a rattan sword will always have the ability to catch at the fabric and tear it.

A better plan might be to fix the fabric to the shield with something more rigid, like white glue, and then when it's dried, paint over the shield face with several coats of liquid Varathane. Sword shots will still mar the surface somewhat, but those should be able to be polished out with Simichrome, or a similar product. When the face becomes too beat up and you want to replace it, you should still be able to peel the fabric off the shield, leaving it ready for a new application of cloth.

Duke Fabian, in the West, used to have a screen-printing setup in his garage, where he'd do up canvas shield-covers printed with his device in batches of a dozen. His shields were all uniformly shaped and sized, so he when the shield stopped looking new, he'd peel one off and slap another one on.

[Odo]

Hi all,

snip

...and several other things that may be named later by me or others.


Looking forward to see ya'll at Gulf!

Drake

Can you tell me how to kick your ass?

Just asking.

Odo

[FrauHirsch]

I LIKE to hit people in the body with my shield (as long as they are armed for it), it screws with their focus

Edward,

I don't think hitting the body with the edge of the shield is allowed any more in Adria (though it might be ok if the shield is under the maximum weight for mass weapons)... because its flippin' dangerous... and there are a bunch of doofus's out there who have no common sense about it. We need reasonable precautions so as not to injure people permanently to retain our insurance. Hitting people on the ground is no longer legal either.

For the SCAdians, grappling is allowed in Adria if both parties have a modicum of experience, both agree and the Marshals are informed...

Because of the significant modifications to the Combat and Marshals manuals (3 updates in 4 yrs), all fighters in Adria must now take a test that at least glosses over the key points/changes in the rules -- even long time fighters (who of course bitch about it), but then they often haven't read the latest manuals either...

-J

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Sir Michael St. Sever-
White glue? What type? Wood glue? I need a new system for making wooden shields and I want to cover them with canvas. Need details and ideas.
-Vitus

[Edward de la Pole]

I don't think hitting the body with the edge of the shield is allowed any more in Adria (though it might be ok if the shield is under the maximum weight for mass weapons)... because its flippin' dangerous... and there are a bunch of doofus's out there who have no common sense about it. We need reasonable precautions so as not to injure people permanently to retain our insurance. Hitting people on the ground is no longer legal either.
-J

Yeah, I'd heard of the rules changes. And I never hit him on the ground, I only landed on him

Hitting a properly armed person with a shield is safe, but danger lies when people are wearing loaner armour that opens on them or fails to close when they move. If you have two competent combatants who agree to what was once referred to as "Knightly combat" it is a safe proposition.

Yes there are many doofus's (or would that be doofai?) even amongst the chivalry who don't know how to properly arm themselves, defend themselves, or even have sense enough to realized what they are agreeing to. I remember one particular doofus that whined that the armour bites he had from the loaner gear he was wearing was the result of overpowering. That same doofus even admitted later that he had been rhinoing because he wanted to get further in the tourney.

You don't have to worry about me whining about the new rules, I have had my helms adjusted so they are only SCA legal. I won't fight in Adria anymore... too many doofus's present company excluded of course

BTW, Gerhard and I proposed fight cards and testing several years ago and were poo poo'd as trouble makers. Glad you guys got it through.

Doofus's should be limited, not combat

[dukedrake]

Hey Odo,

Perhaps you could force me to watch some of those "special" tapes of you...nausea is a powerful weapon!

Did you notice my question to you earlier in this thread?

Drake

[Saint-Sever]

Sir Michael St. Sever-
White glue? What type? Wood glue? I need a new system for making wooden shields and I want to cover them with canvas. Need details and ideas.
-Vitus

Wood glue ought to work just as well, but I was thinking of plain old Elmer's Glue-All white glue. This is similar in technique to what I do to mount canvas onto wooden panels for painting.

Take the glue, and dilute it with water by 20-25%. This is to make it less gluelike in consistency, and more like thick paint. Use a brush or a roller, and apply a thin coat of the glue to the canvas, and to the shield face. Put the canvas and the shield together, and smooth the fabric out with your hands, to get rid of any wrinkles. If you want, after the glue has dried, staple the cloth down to the shield's inside face, using an ordinary heavy-duty stapler.

If you have a pre-printed device on the canvas, a'la Fabian, you can Varathane the hell out of the shield as soon as the glue is dry. If you still have to paint it, then prime the surface with a coat or two of acrylic gesso, paint, and then Varathane. I have also talked to people who have used fiberglass resin instead of varathane, and said they were satisfied with its toughness, etc.

If you were applying canvas to a fiberglass or metal shield, I think that this would still work, but I'm not certain. You might have to experiment around a little with other glues or resins.

Michael

[BdeB]

If you were applying canvas to a fiberglass or metal shield, I think that this would still work, but I'm not certain. You might have to experiment around a little with other glues or resins.

Michael

3M's Spray 77 Spray Glue seems to work fine for metal shields.

[Bran MacNiell]

Heater shields are getting bigger and bigger. It's ridiculous.

I will admit to having my curiosity peaked. What size and shape shield do you use Sir Vitus? What lead you to the choice of this combination?

Bran MacNiell

[Captain Jamie]

Saint-Server do you have any recipes for period gessos and if so do you have any tips on their manufacture and use?

Captain Jamie

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I am currently using a 14th century Italian teardrop, which is bigger than I would like because I gave in to my irritation. I was regularly fighting a few guys who were hiding behind these huge shields, and since I was using a 22x22 heater, I was getting irked by the imbalance of the situation. I think I will have to find a happy medium between the two concepts....

[Saint-Sever]

Saint-Server do you have any recipes for period gessos and if so do you have any tips on their manufacture and use?

Captain Jamie

Basically, period gesso is plaster or some other white powder (like marble dust) mixed with glue, to make a paste. Medieval Bondo, only without the resiliency. It's rigid and absorbent when dry, and makes an excellent primer on wood panels for tempera or oil paints. Since it's rigid when dry, it doesn't work so well on stretched canvas, so when canvas supports for painting became the standard, gesso became a footnote in art history books. "Gesso", that you buy in art stores, is really an acrylic paint. When they started marketing the stuff back in the 50's, the manufacturers were worried that it wouldn't be accepted by artists, so they called it "gesso", figuring that the old name would grant the new product some credibility.

I have a couple of period recipes for gesso, that are basically animal-skin glue (which has to be cooked prior to use. A pain in the ass.), "slaked plaster" (the very finest particles of plaster, obtained thru a time-consuming, fiddling pain-in-the-ass process) and white lead, which is lead oxide and is toxic. And a pain in the ass. (Not as toxic as, say, plutonium, which all the PC hazmat idiots seem to equate it with, but still not something to be casually screwed around with.) In general, gesso is a major pain in the ass to make.

I know that last sentence tweaked your reenactor-button, and made making a batch of gesso irresistable, by the way.

The art supply company Frederix used to make a dry mix gesso, with titanium dioxide replacing the white lead, that you added water to and cooked yourself. That might be the ticket. I'd be curious to see what would happen to a gesso'd shield in an SCA combat environment.

[Jean Richard Malcolmson]

Hi all,

snip

...and several other things that may be named later by me or others.


Looking forward to see ya'll at Gulf!

Drake

Can you tell me how to kick your ass?

Just asking.

Odo

Drake,
Quit messing around and tell him how to kick your ass!! I know about a half dozen guys who would like to know.

I'm to old, fat and slow to worry about it anymore.

Regards
(Jean) Richard
Ansteorra

[theodrik]

My heater is 24 x 30". If you want to bring a bigger shield, please do. You have to carry it and I can shelter behind it too! You can't throw through your shield to get to me and with a nice mix of offensive shield presses, pins and hooks, I'll get along just fine. Hope you've got good armor covering you back and rear.