The Armour Archive

ok then i guess we agree to disagree. if i understand you correctly you are saying:

Well, that is a fundamental right, but I think you are seeing things far more black and white than I am, and that is what I am trying to clarify.

I never said that you were wrong, or that Alaric was right.. i merely said that from what you both have posted here, he is MUCH more lenient on his rules than you seem to be. That is all. Its not a "right/wrong" its a shades of grey.

t-shirts are ok for the sca

Sure, as long as they are UNDER your armor, and are NOT your armor entirely.
(and I cant read em while you fight in them)

visible motocross gear is ok for the sca

Depends. If you are wearing a breastplate/shoulder thing, put a tabard on it. It still has NOTHING resembling the proper "shape", but at least I'm not looking at yellow and blue fiberglass. If its shin-guards, or kneepads, then I dont feel as bad.. like if I can see the elastic from a knee pad behind the knee, but the front is under a cop, I dont have an issue with it.

people have a right to fight in the sca

As long as they have passed any authorization bouts required for their form, filled in the proper waivers, and are safe on the field, and meet minimum armor restrictions as listed in corpora and/or local rules, yes, they do. Do you disagree with that?

armor is expensive and can not be made to look proper without breaking the bank in the sca

Not an absolute, as you state it. Sure.. someone living down the street from your house may have access to your equipment and skills, but someone living in Newfoundland may not, and their only option is to purchase it. Luckily, we had a guy here who made plastic brigs, elbows and knees, and taught the person how to do it themselves, to get them 'on the field". It was good enough armor to fight for a few months and find out if they liked it or not, and all of us moved up to better stuff.
Had the restriction been metal only, I never would have gotten into it.. the financial outlay was too high. I got a barrel for 5 bucks and a used helmet for 50.

people that claim to need help making things and are invited to do so with instructions, tools, and assistance yet dont put forth the effort to take advantage of these offers are not lazy in the sca

Ahh, but that isnt what you said. You left out the "claim to need help" part. I would say your above statement is correct as it stands, (except that they ARE lazy..) but that it doesnt mean anything for people who havent asked for help from you or someone like you, and been offered it. Again, the person in newfoundland..

and that the rules that state, very clearly, that the appearance of pre 17th century technologies mean nothing in the sca

Nope, I take that rule more seriously than you do, methinks. I think if you are going to say "pre-17th C" and make it stick, then MAKE IT STICK! No plastic. When I hit you it should go "thud" (gambeson or leather) or "clang" (metal). not "clack". You cannot say "Well, it has to LOOK 17th C, but Plastic is okay" or you are rule-bending just as much as I am.

THeres good, better, best:

Heres an example:

good: guy in gothic plate, made of plastic, in 13 different colors, wearing a spang.

better: Guy in gothic plate, made of plastic, but all black, with fluting, wearing a proper helmet.

Best: Guy in gothic plate, either steel or velvet covered plastic, etc etc.

Do not let the best be the enemy of the better in this situation.

but that kind of attitude is why people are not concerned with following the rules. oh well. and yes, those are all quotes from me. and? you conveniently didnt comment on the fact that you attributed restrictions to me when they clearly dont fit in with reality. whatever. if you really think that ignoring rules is fine i wish you the best of luck. but i will maintain a lowered respect for you because of it.

I didnt say what you think I said. As I pointed out above, I merely said that from YOUR statements here, and Alarics statements here, your "rules" or "desires" are much more restrictive than his are. Do you still say this is not true? Are you that blind? I have never said that people should ignore rules. Have I made ANY statements about your "no visible plastic" rule? I personally think its a great idea, and if I lived in your group, I would certainly be at your house rebuilding my armor in metal. But I dont, and in my kingdom, my black plastic suit is fine and accepted, and no-one bitches about it. I dont "ignore" the rules of my home kingdom, because it is not an issue here. The "rule" you keep quoting says "attempt". It doesnt even say "reasonable" it says "attempt". The disconnect we are having is YOUR definition of "attempt" versus other peoples definitions of "attempt". If the damn fighters handbook says "wear a hockey glove" and it is the SCA definitive publication, then by wearing that hockey glove I am within SCA rules. I agree that your local rules _may_ pre-empt that, but I am still within the rules, unless I am in YOUR specific purview.

Maeryk

the charter says europe.

oh yeah and viking is a verb not a noun.

Maeryk wrote:

i think a case could be made for several cultures that were paraded around as oddities in europe during the time constraints of the sca. but that doesnt make it the norm and it also doesnt provide any evidence that these people would be found on the field. i have nothing against personas from the fringe per se. only on the field as it simply makes little sense.

again i applaud his efforts and hope that he brings even more knowledge about things medieval to those around him through his research into these cultures.

regards
logan

Logan, Vikings, Saxons, Landsknechts, Japanese, Mongols, Scots, and a host of other period cultures did not fight in the tournaments you are attempting to recreate here either, does that mean they shouldnt be allowed? Nor did Romans, Greeks, Athenians, etc.

Just wondering.. how you decide that line? in tournament, or grand melee, what is "fringe"? Anything non-14th C? Seriously.

Maeryk

the charter says europe.

It says Europe and cultures they would have had contact with.. but is that where you make your distinction?

So a Landsknecht and a Viking going at it in a 14th C tournament des armes, is not silly and prohibited (even though neither one would ever have been there) but a Japanese warrior and a 14th C full plate knight going at it IS silly?

Im just curious.. I'm wondering how "recreate" we get here..

Maeryk

dukelogan wrote:sorry, i thought i was clear when i stated:

"should he decide to portray that persona off the field i would applaud his efforts but not on the field."

My fault, it was late, and I misread. At least I typed out a bit of info about Amerinds in Europe in period for anyone who was interested.

Personally, I've considered in the past doing an 'Amerind visiting Europe' persona - but I think the best way to do it would be to dress (on and off the field) exactly like a European of the time, with perhaps a few 'flourishes' of native culture. Unless your persona was a slave being paraded around for shock value, this is exactly what would have occured.

I have yet to see a Japanese persona in a monk's habit - the only way they ever visited Europe - and that's a shame. A missed opportunity.

have yet to see a Japanese persona in a monk's habit - the only way they ever visited Europe - and that's a shame. A missed opportunity.

Local fella named Mokurai "the funky monk". He does Japanese monk.. the goofy hat, the clogs, the right outfit, staff of (7?) rings and jug of sake.

He also happens to have a GORGEOUS suit of japanese armor as well.. but off the field, he's a monk.

Maeryk

Maeyrk,

The distinction is we are "recreating" we are not "re-inacting". I don't believe that it is stated anywhere that the SCA is re-inacting history.

LH groups do thier best to reinact, by using as close as possible, authentic materials, tools, etc. to make all of the gear that they use as authentic as possible.

The SCA spans 1000 years of history and far too many cultures to attempt an exact historically accurate setting. I agree that a 10th cen. Irishman fighting a 14th century anything is silly, from an authentic point of view, but the reason the SCA spans so much history is so that as many people as possible can find something that interests them inside the guidelines of the organization.

An all incompassing blanket ruling that is enterpreted exactly the same across the entire organization is impossible. That is why we have local officers with an administrative chain of command and soveriegns with very far reaching powers that have short reigns.

Hockey gloves are legal in your kingdom, as they are in mine, but they are still ugly, and in my opinion violate the spirit of the law. I also feel they are unsafe, but that is beside the point.....

To sum up, the line is drawn where your Crown and Kingdom Seneschal say it is drawn, subject to final disposition of the BOD, if it in any way violates Corpora, (which I feel hockey gloves, plastic and alluminum does).

the tit for tat obviously is not working. the quotes you have from me are based on your blanket disagreement with points that i made (wow thats a surprise). since you disagreed with me i was asking you if those things were acceptable. in your world they must be. i really see no point in continuing the tit for tat with you anymore as it hasnt been productive. you feel that your exposed plastic armor is fine and dandy and represents the middle ages in some fashion and is a boon to the sca. i think it makes you look like a reject from a mad max movie and does nothing to enhance the purpose of the sca. im cool with that. i just hope i dont have to be the one that has to explain to the people walking by you in a park that you really are supposed to be portraying a foot soldier from the middle ages as part of this organization dedicated to the study of such things. even little kids arent that blind.

if you dont want to cover up your cool plastic armor that is your right to do so i guess. and there are plenty of guys out there that are just as indifferent to the purpose of this big dress up party (well that is what it really is) and they too will wander around looking like storm troopers gone awry. but hey, as long as its easy i guess. and if that plastic shell is acceptable why shouldnt some football pads be ok too? and my white addidas, and my blue jeans. whats the difference? it is all about appearances.

ive heard many ideas people have as to why the heavy community is not growing in numbers and the rapier community grows exponentially. i suggested it was because of plastic armor and sports equipment. had i been walking through the park one afternoon with some friends looking for something interesting to do and saw to idiots in plastic rigs with sneakers and t-shirts on wailing on each other with sticks i would have laughed and suggested they throw some dice to see who died. but thats cool in your book as that really does a great job of representing the middle ages and the sca. however, had i seen some guys with foils poking at each other in the accoutrement that is typical of the rapier community in atlantia i would have been intrigued. i would have stopped by and asked some questions.

i was fortunate that i was introduced to sca sport combat by a group of four guys that wore stuff that looked believable. in retrospect it wasnt that great but it was leather and metal and cloth. i didnt wear any plastic until i was in my first reign and that was a simple band that covered by sternum. thats what i wear now. i also wear a profession hockey elbow and havent sustained a single injury to my elbow since switching from metal. and when i wore metal you couldnt see it through my tabard anyway.

you will lead by your example on the field and inspire the group that finds that to be acceptable and i will lead by example on the field and inspire those that find a little effort to be part of what makes the "dream" somewhat believable.

so go on and wear your cool plastic stuff. you think what you want and i will think what i want. thats cool by me and i hope you can accept that as well. but i really dont see the point in this with you anymore.



regards
logan

Maeryk wrote:

ok then i guess we agree to disagree. if i understand you correctly you are saying:

Well, that is a fundamental right, but I think you are seeing things far more black and white than I am, and that is what I am trying to clarify.

I never said that you were wrong, or that Alaric was right.. i merely said that from what you both have posted here, he is MUCH more lenient on his rules than you seem to be. That is all. Its not a "right/wrong" its a shades of grey.

t-shirts are ok for the sca

Sure, as long as they are UNDER your armor, and are NOT your armor entirely.
(and I cant read em while you fight in them)

visible motocross gear is ok for the sca

Depends. If you are wearing a breastplate/shoulder thing, put a tabard on it. It still has NOTHING resembling the proper "shape", but at least I'm not looking at yellow and blue fiberglass. If its shin-guards, or kneepads, then I dont feel as bad.. like if I can see the elastic from a knee pad behind the knee, but the front is under a cop, I dont have an issue with it.

people have a right to fight in the sca

As long as they have passed any authorization bouts required for their form, filled in the proper waivers, and are safe on the field, and meet minimum armor restrictions as listed in corpora and/or local rules, yes, they do. Do you disagree with that?

armor is expensive and can not be made to look proper without breaking the bank in the sca

Not an absolute, as you state it. Sure.. someone living down the street from your house may have access to your equipment and skills, but someone living in Newfoundland may not, and their only option is to purchase it. Luckily, we had a guy here who made plastic brigs, elbows and knees, and taught the person how to do it themselves, to get them 'on the field". It was good enough armor to fight for a few months and find out if they liked it or not, and all of us moved up to better stuff.
Had the restriction been metal only, I never would have gotten into it.. the financial outlay was too high. I got a barrel for 5 bucks and a used helmet for 50.

people that claim to need help making things and are invited to do so with instructions, tools, and assistance yet dont put forth the effort to take advantage of these offers are not lazy in the sca

Ahh, but that isnt what you said. You left out the "claim to need help" part. I would say your above statement is correct as it stands, (except that they ARE lazy..) but that it doesnt mean anything for people who havent asked for help from you or someone like you, and been offered it. Again, the person in newfoundland..

and that the rules that state, very clearly, that the appearance of pre 17th century technologies mean nothing in the sca

Nope, I take that rule more seriously than you do, methinks. I think if you are going to say "pre-17th C" and make it stick, then MAKE IT STICK! No plastic. When I hit you it should go "thud" (gambeson or leather) or "clang" (metal). not "clack". You cannot say "Well, it has to LOOK 17th C, but Plastic is okay" or you are rule-bending just as much as I am.

THeres good, better, best:

Heres an example:

good: guy in gothic plate, made of plastic, in 13 different colors, wearing a spang.

better: Guy in gothic plate, made of plastic, but all black, with fluting, wearing a proper helmet.

Best: Guy in gothic plate, either steel or velvet covered plastic, etc etc.

Do not let the best be the enemy of the better in this situation.

but that kind of attitude is why people are not concerned with following the rules. oh well. and yes, those are all quotes from me. and? you conveniently didnt comment on the fact that you attributed restrictions to me when they clearly dont fit in with reality. whatever. if you really think that ignoring rules is fine i wish you the best of luck. but i will maintain a lowered respect for you because of it.

I didnt say what you think I said. As I pointed out above, I merely said that from YOUR statements here, and Alarics statements here, your "rules" or "desires" are much more restrictive than his are. Do you still say this is not true? Are you that blind? I have never said that people should ignore rules. Have I made ANY statements about your "no visible plastic" rule? I personally think its a great idea, and if I lived in your group, I would certainly be at your house rebuilding my armor in metal. But I dont, and in my kingdom, my black plastic suit is fine and accepted, and no-one bitches about it. I dont "ignore" the rules of my home kingdom, because it is not an issue here. The "rule" you keep quoting says "attempt". It doesnt even say "reasonable" it says "attempt". The disconnect we are having is YOUR definition of "attempt" versus other peoples definitions of "attempt". If the damn fighters handbook says "wear a hockey glove" and it is the SCA definitive publication, then by wearing that hockey glove I am within SCA rules. I agree that your local rules _may_ pre-empt that, but I am still within the rules, unless I am in YOUR specific purview.

Maeryk

To sum up, the line is drawn where your Crown and Kingdom Seneschal say it is drawn, subject to final disposition of the BOD, if it in any way violates Corpora, (which I feel hockey gloves, plastic and alluminum does).

I kinda get what you are saying! Now, the armour regs say plastic, aluminum, fine.. except for helmets. . You are appending the "pre 17th attempt" from elsewhere to modify the armor regs, I gather?

Thats fine.. I have no issue with that.. but my question is and always has been, where does the line get drawn on "attempt". The difference between black on black responder boots with nylon insets, or black responder boots without? Thats a nit, to me. (course, if you cover them with sabatons, no-one knows or cares..) but its still a nit.

see my point?

I realize that we are a big-tent group, and european cultures and those they had contact with are represented, and europe DID have contact with Japanese.. a heckuva lot more contact than with Aztecs. They also had contact with Mongols and chinese and russians.. its documented. So where does that line get drawn? No contact? Minimal contact? Combat contact?

Maeryk
(Im asking for your opinions.. not any hard and fast rules)

true but i think we would be missing out on a wonderful experience to see some other cultures if those of an eastern persona did that. i love japanese culture and know a few guys that really do a good job of portraying it. one who lives in northern atlantia does the whole part really well. nice garb, proper items in his camp, does this whole crawling in to court thing (well it was a little uncomfortable the first time he did it to me). then i was up there for their baronial birthday and he came into feast dressed head to tow like a 15th century french noble. i was disappointed so i asked someone what he was doing and they told me that he put together the whole outfit, shoes and all, because he wanted to sing a song to me at our high table. the song was french. he sang it in french.

that is what the sca should be like all the time. it certainly wasnt convenient for him to make a totally new set of garb to sing the song to us but thats not why he is in the sca.

regards
logan

and thanks for the info on amerinds. it might spark some stronger interest in someone reading through this train wreck.

Gabriel le Noir wrote:

dukelogan wrote:sorry, i thought i was clear when i stated:

"should he decide to portray that persona off the field i would applaud his efforts but not on the field."

My fault, it was late, and I misread. At least I typed out a bit of info about Amerinds in Europe in period for anyone who was interested.

Personally, I've considered in the past doing an 'Amerind visiting Europe' persona - but I think the best way to do it would be to dress (on and off the field) exactly like a European of the time, with perhaps a few 'flourishes' of native culture. Unless your persona was a slave being paraded around for shock value, this is exactly what would have occured.

I have yet to see a Japanese persona in a monk's habit - the only way they ever visited Europe - and that's a shame. A missed opportunity.

I'm posting my replies in bold so you can thell them apart, I'm not yelling.

Maeryk wrote:

To sum up, the line is drawn where your Crown and Kingdom Seneschal say it is drawn, subject to final disposition of the BOD, if it in any way violates Corpora, (which I feel hockey gloves, plastic and alluminum does).

I kinda get what you are saying! Now, the armour regs say plastic, aluminum, fine.. except for helmets. . You are appending the "pre 17th attempt" from elsewhere to modify the armor regs, I gather?


I know that the Society marshal's handbook and other sources says that plastic, alluminum, and other materials can be the "equivelent" of steel. Those guidelines are mostly concerned with safety. In that regard, I have no arguement that "safe" is a good way to go. My personal preferance is to avoid plastic and other choices. If I don't see it, I don't know about it and it doesn't bother me. The pre 17th cen attempt ruling in corpora specifically states while at the event, I submit that the tourney field and or melee field are on site where the event is happening.

Thats fine.. I have no issue with that.. but my question is and always has been, where does the line get drawn on "attempt". The difference between black on black responder boots with nylon insets, or black responder boots without? Thats a nit, to me. (course, if you cover them with sabatons, no-one knows or cares..) but its still a nit.

I have never understood what the difficulty is with fighting in period foot wear. If they could do it in history as a proffession, why can't we do it for fun as a hobby. I agree with the sentiment that was stated earlier in this thread that "attempt" is subjective. Someone who has just joined the SCA and is honestly trying to look like someone from the pre-17th century, should be allowed a few tolerant exemptions. Someone who has been playing as long as you or I should not have any exposed modern materials of any kind. Who draws the line here? Your Crown, and all of the rest of the folks who make policy for your local area.

I realize that we are a big-tent group, and european cultures and those they had contact with are represented, and europe DID have contact with Japanese.. a heckuva lot more contact than with Aztecs. They also had contact with Mongols and chinese and russians.. its documented. So where does that line get drawn? No contact? Minimal contact? Combat contact?

Again, if documentation can be shown that the culture being represented had contact with western europe during the time frame we RECREATE, than fine, the more the merrier, as far as I'm concerned. Where is the line drawn and the standard enforced? See my above comments.

Maeryk
(Im asking for your opinions.. not any hard and fast rules)

As far as a means to enforce these already existing rules? Well there are several ways to enforce them, already given to us in our governing documents. It can range anywhere from pointing out the descrepency and a little education/helpful hints, in the nice extreme to a level 1 banashment from the Crown in the other extreme. These are options that already exist, they just don't get used often enough, IMO.

does this whole crawling in to court thing (well it was a little uncomfortable the first time he did it to me).

hmmm... I think you'd either love me or have me killed; I am a Roman, and we do not kneel to Kings.

hmmm... I think you'd either love me or have me killed; I am a Roman, and we do not kneel to Kings.

I will to someone I respect. I will _not_ to someone I dont respect. (Im a merc).

A household I belong(ed) to was called up in front of (I think) Aethelarc crowns at an event to recieve the Alce.. and not only did they not kneel, they didnt disarm. (People failed to notice the same device on the royal guard, apparently) and the audible gasp in the crowd was noticeable.

I only drop a poleweapon if I happen to have one, as they are unwieldy in court.

But as far as I know, there is no _real_ requirement to either bow/kneel OR disarm, its local custom, and as such is malleable.

If the King doesnt trust me with a weapon, he definately shouldnt be calling me up there. *grin*

Maeryk

but you would salute as a show of respect no?

regards
logan

Owen wrote:

does this whole crawling in to court thing (well it was a little uncomfortable the first time he did it to me).

hmmm... I think you'd either love me or have me killed; I am a Roman, and we do not kneel to Kings.

but you would salute as a show of respect no?

regards
logan

I think you aimed this at owen.. But: I would only "salute" someone in my chain of command, (though a german salute is badly looked upon in the SCA, obviously).. so if it was a king "employing" me or one of his agents, certainly.. if it was a king NOT employing me, then I would probably show deference.. but none of that kneeling/bowing/scraping stuff.

If it was a King I was being paid to fight against.. well, hehe.. depends on how "schtick" I'm feeling.

Course, if its some idiot I dont like, I will just avoid them entirely, crown or not, and see too it that I'm not in their general vicinity if at all possible, and then avoid the whole situation the easy way.

Maeryk

Well, since technically speaking the King is in my chain of command (I am on detached duty), I do salute, and bow. Just not kneel.

i find that to be perfectly acceptable if i were to call you into my court. entering my camp i would only hope that your hand would be extended for the beer i offer you.

by the way, i shared your signature line with some of my guys. they found it to be very appropriate for me as well and think highly of its wisdom.

regards
logan

Owen wrote:Well, since technically speaking the King is in my chain of command (I am on detached duty), I do salute, and bow. Just not kneel.

Elvis Costello is one of my faves.

i find that to be perfectly acceptable if i were to call you into my court. entering my camp i would only hope that your hand would be extended for the beer i offer you.

As long as you don't knock over the beer I'm handing you (I make it).

deal. im a wimp with the drinking stuff though. anything darker or thicker than miller lite is a bit much for me. but if you made it i will finish at least one.

will you be at pennsic?

logan

Owen wrote:

i find that to be perfectly acceptable if i were to call you into my court. entering my camp i would only hope that your hand would be extended for the beer i offer you.

As long as you don't knock over the beer I'm handing you (I make it).

well maeryk since i never have nor ever will pay a man for his loyalty and i think youve made it pretty clear your opinion of me i would venture to say you would have no business in my court should i ever assume the station of king again. nor do i suspect that you would ever be called into my court. i wonder though, is there some way i could pay you to hunt me? that, i am sure, would be fun. please indulge me.

logan

by the way, do you work for inacom information systems or are connected with someone named teseth? just trying to place you since nobody seems to know who you are and i have gotten some many emails regarding you recently.

Maeryk wrote:

but you would salute as a show of respect no?

regards
logan

I think you aimed this at owen.. But: I would only "salute" someone in my chain of command, (though a german salute is badly looked upon in the SCA, obviously).. so if it was a king "employing" me or one of his agents, certainly.. if it was a king NOT employing me, then I would probably show deference.. but none of that kneeling/bowing/scraping stuff.

If it was a King I was being paid to fight against.. well, hehe.. depends on how "schtick" I'm feeling.

Course, if its some idiot I dont like, I will just avoid them entirely, crown or not, and see too it that I'm not in their general vicinity if at all possible, and then avoid the whole situation the easy way.

Maeryk

Sorry folks, but we DO need to do something to define a reasonable attempt. I have had an ongoing discussion with someone about this very subject. Personally, the idea that something that is a reasonable attempt for someone at thier first event is still reasonable to someone who has been playing for 15 years is stupid. All it shows is a lack of growth of the person.

Just my opinion.

Bran

well maeryk since i never have nor ever will pay a man for his loyalty and i think youve made it pretty clear your opinion of me i would venture to say you would have no business in my court should i ever assume the station of king again. nor do i suspect that you would ever be called into my court. i wonder though, is there some way i could pay you to hunt me? that, i am sure, would be fun. please indulge me.

logan

See? Now you are just being snide. If you want to have a discussion on something, Logan, fine, but theres no call to be nasty about it. I realize you are kind of blustery on here, and have come to accept that, but I dont choose to let us disagreeing (which if you read what I have written, rather than dismissing me as an idiot out of hand) on one thing make us enemies. If you choose to, fine.

I'm a german Landsknecht in the SCA. They _were_ mercenaries at one point or another. I pretty much go where whoever is in charge at the time tells me to go, which means I usually end up fighting for my kingdom, as that is what my Hauptmann tells me to. If he ever says we fight for another kingdom, then we do that.

Its not like I'm dissing royalty out of hand, but theres a gameside aspect to it as well, and if I am truly trying to recreate a military man who WAS a mercenary, then I have to do that gameside.

Maeryk

perhaps that is why i am a knight and you are not? i follow my king as that is my duty. i do not sell my loyalty as the idea of that is base and vile in my mind. and you are not my enemy. you have not earned that right. you would have to prove yourself a person of much less character than i think you are to be in that club. i dont like "mercs" in the sca. never have and never will. i have had them "hired" to take my unit out and, well, that was fun. and i would never call a merc into my court as they have no business in the presence of noble people. you wear the colors you deal with the results.

anyway, although i dont think highly of your display on this silly board i surely do not "hate" you. i dont know you. i have offered to meet with you privately and i hope that you will take me up on that. if not, i will be fine.

logan

Maeryk wrote:

well maeryk since i never have nor ever will pay a man for his loyalty and i think youve made it pretty clear your opinion of me i would venture to say you would have no business in my court should i ever assume the station of king again. nor do i suspect that you would ever be called into my court. i wonder though, is there some way i could pay you to hunt me? that, i am sure, would be fun. please indulge me.

logan

See? Now you are just being snide. If you want to have a discussion on something, Logan, fine, but theres no call to be nasty about it. I realize you are kind of blustery on here, and have come to accept that, but I dont choose to let us disagreeing (which if you read what I have written, rather than dismissing me as an idiot out of hand) on one thing make us enemies. If you choose to, fine.

I'm a german Landsknecht in the SCA. They _were_ mercenaries at one point or another. I pretty much go where whoever is in charge at the time tells me to go, which means I usually end up fighting for my kingdom, as that is what my Hauptmann tells me to. If he ever says we fight for another kingdom, then we do that.

Its not like I'm dissing royalty out of hand, but theres a gameside aspect to it as well, and if I am truly trying to recreate a military man who WAS a mercenary, then I have to do that gameside.

Maeryk

perhaps that is why i am a knight and you are not? i follow my king as that is my duty. i do not sell my loyalty as the idea of that is base and vile in my mind. and you are not my enemy. you have not earned that right. you would have to prove yourself a person of much less character than i think you are to be in that club. i dont like "mercs" in the sca. never have and never will. i have had them "hired" to take my unit out and, well, that was fun. and i would never call a merc into my court as they have no business in the presence of noble people. you wear the colors you deal with the results.

Hmm. Lemme ask this.. if someone is a merc on the field, but is suggested a Pelican for service, are you saying they would not get that due to their behavior on the field?

Also, I have no real desire to be a knight. It just doesnt mean much to me. THis is the disconnect I find with some people who hold being a knight as the be-all and end all of SCA existance. If thats what bakes yer brownies (generic "you") more power to you.. there are many different reasons to play this game.. mine just differs from yours.

Mine, is to attempt to recreate a medieval persona of my choice as closesly as I can within the confines of the SCA. If that doesnt involve getting an award for beating people with sticks, in a modern sport that happens to be tied to the SCA so be it.

(This is not meant to take ANYTHING from anyone who DOES have a knighthood or aspires to one. I am not taking a crack at Knights here.)

Maeryk

Sorry folks, but we DO need to do something to define a reasonable attempt. I have had an ongoing discussion with someone about this very subject. Personally, the idea that something that is a reasonable attempt for someone at thier first event is still reasonable to someone who has been playing for 15 years is stupid. All it shows is a lack of growth of the person.

Absolutely NO argument from me on that. But I think there is a world of difference between well done and thought out plastic, and smurf-barrel blue that still has the "this end up" sticker on it.

I would like something that politely yet firmly urges people to upgrade to the point where they are at a period-look kit for SCA sport, but I wouldnt want to restrict those just getting into it, or who are actively working on one part, but havent gotten to another yet.

Thats all.

Maeryk

Maeryk,

I think that being a Merc is a tremendous detriment to success in the SCa. Now granted I have more experience in Knight's Councils than in Pelican and Laurel meetings (although I have been in a few of them as well), but if someone is a merc, or to be more pointed - fights for a side other than the kingdom in which they fight, it often presents a lot of troubhle for them (thi seven goes for guys who are squires and not mercenaries, and they go fight with their knight on the "other" side). I have also heard of people not being allowed to fight in a Crown tourney, because as a sworn peer, they fought against their kingdom (without permission) in the last big war (OK I did that one to somebody, and after we eventually talked it out I let her fight).

I think being a merc is a waste of time in the SCa- although I have thought about this, what if a bunch of guys, like me and Logan, a couple of other Dukes, and our squires all show up at an unaffiliated war like Lillies, and offere our services as Mercenaries. I think that you might actually see some real negotiations go on for a 25 man merc unit that could have some real devastating effect on the field.

Alaric

Duke Logan- it is still up in the air whether I can make it to Pennsic this year; our first is due end of June. Jen wants to let me go for at least a little while, if that is workable, but we'll see. If not, I'll send some with Bela, and you can grace (sic) Kaffa with your presence.

I think being a merc is a waste of time in the SCa- although I have thought about this, what if a bunch of guys, like me and Logan, a couple of other Dukes, and our squires all show up at an unaffiliated war like Lillies, and offere our services as Mercenaries. I think that you might actually see some real negotiations go on for a 25 man merc unit that could have some real devastating effect on the field.

Exactly! and that, from my reading, is exactly what went on with some of the professional soldier groups. (course, at the time it was 2500 men, not 25.. but I'm talking pike units).

See.. if you did that against your own kingdom.. then I totally realize why it would be wrong wrong wrong.. but if you did it at an unaffiliated war, then I see no real problem with it. Even if you did it at a Pennsic for one battle.. that would be okay (in my book) but gets stickier if someone is a knight.
They have sworn an oath to a specific crown, and therefore are in vilation of said oath unless they have the permission of that crown.

Maeryk

oh yeah and viking is a verb not a noun.

Uhh.. not according to Websters



Maeryk

Maeryk wrote:Absolutely NO argument from me on that. But I think there is a world of difference between well done and thought out plastic, and smurf-barrel blue that still has the "this end up" sticker on it.

I would like something that politely yet firmly urges people to upgrade to the point where they are at a period-look kit for SCA sport, but I wouldnt want to restrict those just getting into it, or who are actively working on one part, but havent gotten to another yet.

Thats all.

Maeryk

Sorry, but well thought out and done plastic should be the minimum for brand spankin new. Personally though, I have no problem seeing all exposed plastic banned from the list field. It's ugly (even a lot of the "well done" plastic kits that I have seen) and it's not remotely medieval.

The fact is though, you and I probably don't agree on what is a reasonable attempt. If we don't agree, and no one else can agree, then someone in authority (such as the BOD) should step up and define it IMHO.

Bran

If most people here can't agree, and most people in the SCA at large can't agree, how much of a revolt would there be if the BoD did make an arbitrary decision?

honestly? People would bitch, moan, then adjust and get over it. Many people will do the minimum required of any activity. If people want more than just a large group doing what is currently accepted as the minimum, then you have to raise that minimum. They may not like it, but they will get over it in all honesty.

I came into the SCA just after the pay to play crap. As best as I can tell, there was no mass exodus over that, and I really don't think there would be over this, so long as a reasonable amount of time was given for the change to take place (like Duke Logan did in Atlantia with a 6 month adjustment period).

I really think that sometimes people try to hard to do what is nice and say screw what is right. People have no idea what a reasonable attempt is and honestly need guidance. Every local group has thier own definition it seems, but is many local groups no one has a clue about period armour or clothing. IF the BOD or Crown or some other ruling body made a declariation of the definition of a "reasonable attempt" then people would adjust. Would they be happy about it? Nope. Would they do it? yep.

It's just the way folks are. If they want to play, they roll with the punches. If they don't, so what? Rules get added all the time anyways, so if it wasn't this one that ran them off, it would be something else.

Bran

I wouldn't be too sure. I was up to my knees in "that pay to play" crap, and the only reason why there wasn't a mass exodus is because the BoD backed down from a more draconian plan to require membership to even attend an event.

[img]http://www.ihateaol.co.uk/misc/galleries/show.php/original//funnypics/longthread.jpg[/img]

Mass exodus of what? Fairy wings? So, who cares?

In addition, there could be no central sort of enforcement like there is for pay to play. The BOD wouldn't require a polaroid of everybody before they walk through gate or on the field. Enforcement would have to be local, or at the kingdom level.

I'm an authenticist for myself, everbody else can do pretty much what they like. But when I see somebody show up at an event (not even Pennsic) in an old prom dress, or in a bondage type outfit with fruit stuck in their cleavage all day, I'd like the event staff to have a little more leg to stand on in not letting them in. Or provide some decent gold key at the door.

Then I have another corrallary - what goes on after dark at an event is a completely different thing. I hardly consider that part of the event anymore, but more like a post-revel anyway. At Pennsic, you get two weeks worth of post-revel. Fairy wings and vampires can abound at that point!



My $.02 to add to this thread, which is apparently annoying some.

-Charlotte