The Armour Archive

"and i would never call a merc into my court as they have no business in the presence of noble people."

All right, that's some serious crap there man.

Their merits and accomplishments would mean nothing because they don't happen to subscribe to YOUR little view on a tiny slice of history?

I was in a merc unit (The same one Maeryk was in actually.) the year the East walked off the field.
Because we WEREN'T tied up in that BS, we fought and had a great time, and the battle was awesome because there was no "gotta win" attitude, and it was the only battle I have ever fought in at Pennsic of that size where there were so few marshalls.
Because we didn't NEED them.

Alot of the "noble" people took a hike and alot of the tension went away.
Funny how that happened.

Logan, most times I agree with what you have to say.
But this isn't one of them, and it's a perfect illustration of why alot of people go merc to begin with.....


VvS

Maeryk wrote:Absolutely NO argument from me on that. But I think there is a world of difference between well done and thought out plastic, and smurf-barrel blue that still has the "this end up" sticker on it.

I would like something that politely yet firmly urges people to upgrade to the point where they are at a period-look kit for SCA sport, but I wouldnt want to restrict those just getting into it, or who are actively working on one part, but havent gotten to another yet.

Thats all.

Maeryk

After reading through all this, I fail to see why you guys started bashing each other in the first place. Most everyone who's posted has good ideas, but instead of posting them, act on them.

It's going to take work on the group level, not the kingdom level. Get your local group to dress in authentic, good looking garb. If your group goes to events and looks awesome, other groups will see you, and most will envy you. They will start thinking about how to make their groups look a little better. Of course, there will always be those with the ninja turtle shields and bumper stickers. Be proud of what you have accomplished and try to help those that need it. If they don't want it, ignore them. All you're doing is giving them the attention they are after.

congrats to you both and thank you. hopefully you will make it and we can sit for a while and talk shop.

regards
logan

Owen wrote:Duke Logan- it is still up in the air whether I can make it to Pennsic this year; our first is due end of June. Jen wants to let me go for at least a little while, if that is workable, but we'll see. If not, I'll send some with Bela, and you can grace (sic) Kaffa with your presence.

yes, the modern form of the word is used to describe people of a certain region. but you said:

Logan, Vikings, Saxons, Landsknechts, Japanese, Mongols, Scots, and a host of other period cultures did not fight in the tournaments you are attempting to recreate here either, does that mean they shouldnt be allowed? Nor did Romans, Greeks, Athenians, etc.

if we are talking about a medieval people i am only suggesting we use the proper terminology is all. especially when we are "attempting" to educate them.


logan

Maeryk wrote:

oh yeah and viking is a verb not a noun.

Uhh.. not according to Websters



Maeryk

if only the world worked that way. i too wish it took nothing but peer pressure to get people to act and dress properly. but that has failed and i have witnessed a constant decline on what is and what is not acceptable. i think the huge influx of coleman chairs and plastic armor caused it honestly. when i started 12 years ago everyone sat in directors chairs. hell, i owned 5 or 6 myself. then i realized they sucked and started making benches. while my first attempts were very crude they, at least, looked like crude benches. then the coleman chair hit and i saw them everywhere.

shortly after that i started seeing more and more plastic armor. then it became acceptable for a guy to walk out on the field in crappy plastic gear just after getting up from his coleman chair and putting his gatorade bottle down. that, unfortunately, is the example that is being made. and that example will attract more lazy people that dont want to put effort into what they do since its not required. it will, and has, also drive away lots of talented people that are into putting that effort in.

peer pressure in this case works against the human machine. in this country, at least, that machine wants the easiest cheapest way out of things. the sca has not been spared that plague either.

but if you enforce regulations that already exist like we did here in atlantia you can make those that lack the will to try either put forth the effort or find another hobby. thus far, contrary to what some here would suggest, its worked great. people in atlantia are actually excited about upgrading their kits. and they look better because of it. it was just that little spark they needed. no panic, no fire and brimstone, no cats and dogs sleeping together. nope. just a swelling of effort and a vast improvement in morale.

so while i agree it would be cool to get out there and be the example and that be all it would take it simply will not work. history has proven that. sure it works on the most local levels. i wont let someone come to my practice looking like crap and not give him hell about it. i will also help him correct his gear. but at the same time there are five other practices within two hours of house that people get away with looking like crap (well one is run by one of my squires and it is very much like mine so make it four). why is it ok? because its all about fun, its all about no money, its all about no skills, etc etc. its all about whatever excuse someone can come up with to justify them being lazy.

there are far too many resources and far too many willing, talented, and kind people out there for these excuses to be acceptable. sure, the guy in greenland argument probably holds water. dont know, ive never been there. but that is such a small little percentage that its not the core of the problem. 70% of the guys on the field at pennsic live in urban areas within 10 hours of the site. of all the people at pennsic a solid 30% look like shit on the field. i doubt they all are from greenland.

regards
logan

Mᥬᮢ][quote="Maeryk wrote:Absolutely NO argument from me on that. But I think there is a world of difference between well done and thought out plastic, and smurf-barrel blue that still has the "this end up" sticker on it.

I would like something that politely yet firmly urges people to upgrade to the point where they are at a period-look kit for SCA sport, but I wouldnt want to restrict those just getting into it, or who are actively working on one part, but havent gotten to another yet.

Thats all.

Maeryk

After reading through all this, I fail to see why you guys started bashing each other in the first place. Most everyone who's posted has good ideas, but instead of posting them, act on them.

It's going to take work on the group level, not the kingdom level. Get your local group to dress in authentic, good looking garb. If your group goes to events and looks awesome, other groups will see you, and most will envy you. They will start thinking about how to make their groups look a little better. Of course, there will always be those with the ninja turtle shields and bumper stickers. Be proud of what you have accomplished and try to help those that need it. If they don't want it, ignore them. All you're doing is giving them the attention they are after.[/quote]

Wait for it.. the worlds gonna stop:

I totally agree with Logan here. Partly I agreed with him to begin with, but some of his wording threw me as to his actual meaning, and partly my own opinions have changed since wading into this thread, but I agree.

I think when I started, I remember the "cover it if its not period" mantra a lot.. somewhere, that got lost. Also, I remember crowns being fought in period armor.. then a turn to "sports equipment" for a while, and now they are swinging back the other way.

But I have to agree.

Logan.. any chance you could post the bench pattern you use? It would probably be helpful, and I swore this winter no coleman chairs would be in my encampment under MY butt, and realize I probably dont have time to get my folding german chairs done this year, so how would you reccomend benches be made?

Maeryk

vermin i am truly sorry that you think me deciding that i wouldnt have a reason to call someone into my court that sells their loyalty as i see anyone that puts a price on their loyalty to be less than noble as serious crap.

as king, i have the right to call whom i wish into my court. as a man i value loyalty to the highest degree. in the sca if someone wants to go fight for the other side i dont really care. its when they pimp themselves that i have an issue. fortunately it is well know how i feel about that and i havent had to be bothered by pimping rabble for most of my reigns. on the field i fight them just like i do anyone else. off the field i treat them as i do anyone else. and in my courts i would never reward them.

same goes for those that call themselves pirates, thieves, smugglers, whatever. anyone that would exalt the ideals of the wicked (for lack of a better term) have no place with me. and, while playing the role of king, i choose not to have them in my presence. but its my right and my choice and im sorry to hear you say that is crap.

regards
logan

Vermin wrote:"and i would never call a merc into my court as they have no business in the presence of noble people."

All right, that's some serious crap there man.

Their merits and accomplishments would mean nothing because they don't happen to subscribe to YOUR little view on a tiny slice of history?

I was in a merc unit (The same one Maeryk was in actually.) the year the East walked off the field.
Because we WEREN'T tied up in that BS, we fought and had a great time, and the battle was awesome because there was no "gotta win" attitude, and it was the only battle I have ever fought in at Pennsic of that size where there were so few marshalls.
Because we didn't NEED them.

Alot of the "noble" people took a hike and alot of the tension went away.
Funny how that happened.

Logan, most times I agree with what you have to say.
But this isn't one of them, and it's a perfect illustration of why alot of people go merc to begin with.....


VvS

i havent gotten around to getting all of my patterns together and .pdfs created for them. however, a great and simple pattern can be found at:

http://charlesfleming-sca.com/

his benches run around $7 each to produce and can be made to look rather nice. i think they are too long but they certainly do well.

glad to hear that you are cleaning up your camp. stop by mine at pennsic for that beer and i will show you what i make. bring some cardboard and we can trace out the pattern for you. its very similar to what is on that site but has been tweaked a bit. just made 10 for pennsic this year and will probably make 10 more before then.

paint, stain, oil, etc are all great ways to finish them off. take you time sorting through the sheets at the lumber yard to find nice grain patterns.

best of luck
logan

Maeryk wrote:Wait for it.. the worlds gonna stop:

I totally agree with Logan here. Partly I agreed with him to begin with, but some of his wording threw me as to his actual meaning, and partly my own opinions have changed since wading into this thread, but I agree.

I think when I started, I remember the "cover it if its not period" mantra a lot.. somewhere, that got lost. Also, I remember crowns being fought in period armor.. then a turn to "sports equipment" for a while, and now they are swinging back the other way.

But I have to agree.

Logan.. any chance you could post the bench pattern you use? It would probably be helpful, and I swore this winter no coleman chairs would be in my encampment under MY butt, and realize I probably dont have time to get my folding german chairs done this year, so how would you reccomend benches be made?

Maeryk

But Logan, consider this, and it's based on an ACTUAL person, not a made up "what if"

There's a guy who is Seneschal of his Shire, puts in a lot of hours....helps run the Youth fighting, autocrats HUGE events, does armor workshops out of his house so people DON'T run around in ass looking armor, takes time off of work to do the landgrab for his shire......but he's a merc.

Sorry man, I see lots of "noble" folks (to use your expression, which I *think* means someone who gives you/anyking fealty, but please correct me if I'm wrong.) who do FAR less than this person, but you would not call this person up and reward them for the good deeds they do for a great many people?

If that's what you're saying, then I stand by my assessment of your attitude towards people like that.

True, it IS your RIGHT, but that doesn't MAKE it RIGHT.

Does that clarify my position any?

VvS

if he was a member of my kingdom and fought against me without my permission or for payment, or he demanded payment to fight with the kingdom he lives in, hell no. by the way, i think service, like fighting, is its own reward. i only reward those that i think dont care about it and only serve to better the game for others. if i miss them its ok since they dont care about cookies and trinkets. if i can point out their character and sacrifice to others as an inspiration and thank them personally at the same time, then i am doing my job. i dont think that a man that sells his loyalty in the sca has a lot of character.

of course i realize now that loyalty actually has little meaning in the sca so it doesnt surprise me that people find mercs to be bitchin or whatever.

regards
logan

Vermin wrote:But Logan, consider this, and it's based on an ACTUAL person, not a made up "what if"

There's a guy who is Seneschal of his Shire, puts in a lot of hours....helps run the Youth fighting, autocrats HUGE events, does armor workshops out of his house so people DON'T run around in ass looking armor, takes time off of work to do the landgrab for his shire......but he's a merc.

Sorry man, I see lots of "noble" folks (to use your expression, which I *think* means someone who gives you/anyking fealty, but please correct me if I'm wrong.) who do FAR less than this person, but you would not call this person up and reward them for the good deeds they do for a great many people?

If that's what you're saying, then I stand by my assessment of your attitude towards people like that.

True, it IS your RIGHT, but that doesn't MAKE it RIGHT.

Does that clarify my position any?

VvS

Logan:

With all due respect....it's a hobby.

When we return from tournament and/or war, we go back to our 21st century lives. Questioning people's "character" is important when real-life issues are involved--questioning people's "character" over how they choose to spend their leisure time is a bit excessive.

At the end of Pennsic, or Gulf Wars, or Estrella, we have to deal with real challenges to our character and real tests to show our quality. No lives are truly going to be lost if a person chooses to fight with the Midrealm King or with the Confederation. There are other, more serious matters that involve character that have nothing to do with whether you fight SCA for beer or not.

While such things may be of great import to some people, it still doesn't change the fact that this is a recreational activity, and not the end of Western Civilization if our side loses. There is no baggage train of wounded and dying following us home, nor burial details. We're not going to have to defend Sternfeld from ravening hordes of Tuchux and Æthelmearcers running amok in the interior of the Midlands.

Some perspective is needed here...

same goes for those that call themselves pirates, thieves, smugglers, whatever.

How do you feel about privateers?

with all due respect as well

i have never held a court on a tuesday, i dont wear my belt and chain on mondays, and i havent "killed" the enemy of my "kingdom" on a thursday (except at pennsic, but i think you get my point).

i dont draw a fine line between the modern world and the sca world. i draw a fat bold line then i draw it again just to be sure. i know its a hobby and dont need to be reminded of that. i was responding to wether or not i would call someone into my "court" while at an sca event as the "king" of that "kingdom" not wether i would have them over for dinner. perspective indeed.


i dont think you meant to be insulting but i found that to be, well, insulting.

regards
logan

Templar Bob/De Tyre wrote:Logan:

With all due respect....it's a hobby.

When we return from tournament and/or war, we go back to our 21st century lives. Questioning people's "character" is important when real-life issues are involved--questioning people's "character" over how they choose to spend their leisure time is a bit excessive.

At the end of Pennsic, or Gulf Wars, or Estrella, we have to deal with real challenges to our character and real tests to show our quality. No lives are truly going to be lost if a person chooses to fight with the Midrealm King or with the Confederation. There are other, more serious matters that involve character that have nothing to do with whether you fight SCA for beer or not.

While such things may be of great import to some people, it still doesn't change the fact that this is a recreational activity, and not the end of Western Civilization if our side loses. There is no baggage train of wounded and dying following us home, nor burial details. We're not going to have to defend Sternfeld from ravening hordes of Tuchux and Æthelmearcers running amok in the interior of the Midlands.

Some perspective is needed here...

Logan:

No, I did not intend that as an insult--and am distressed that you took my commentary as one.

My commentary is primarily reaction to another thread that's running on a parallel course as this one--and an observation that many people take certain aspects of this hobby way too seriously (to the point of placing value judgements on people that are not merited). Such happens too frequently in the Society.

An individual who gives of their time to further this hobby (in expectation of recognition or not) can be encouraged to even greater service by even a kind word from their Crown. And while I know that the eyes of the Crown can't be everywhere, the idea of the Royalty seeing a person who is in a mercenary household (who otherwise promotes the Crown's interests) as lacking in character seems rather arbitrary.

Or am I not clearly (or fairly) seeing your view on this? I'm asking because I'm trying to understand it.

How about this?

D. REQUIREMENTS FOR PARTICIPANTS. Attendance at Society events requires wearing a portrayal of pre-17th century dress. To enforce the rule, participants will wear garb conforming to a color photo of a portrait or painting of the time portrayed carried by the participant. On the field, fighters are required to imitate a color photo of a painting or full armour suit of the time they are portraying complete with correct weapons of the time (with loopholes for non-obvious safety equipment. Example: blackened bar grills, covered basket hilts, covered hockey gear, etc…). The Autocrats and Marshalls will enforce this rule both on and off the field. Comply with any other requirements (such as site fees or waivers) which may be imposed by the Society, and behave as a lady or gentleman. However, the responsible officers may exempt attendees at business meetings and informal classes from the requirement to wear pre-17th century dress.

The “photo of a paintingâ€Â

We'd have to carry photo-id for our STUFF?!?

Well, you pretty much elimenate all personas pre 800.

You also assume that any picture that is shown is accurate, and not an artists' fancy. And you can't prove it wasn't.

So I would have to say itwouldn't be anymore help than what we have now.


Look - the SCA is giant steps ahead of where it was even 5 years ago in terms of appearance, on and off the field. And the improvment happened without the BOD getting involved. I personally think it is a shame that Atlantia felt it had to take the steps it did, but in the long run, it worked. Mostly because individuals stepped up and encourage and assisted people in meeting the requirements.

Regarless of whether or not the SCA passes some rule, real change is going to start at the individual level first and foremost. We make it fun to be accurate, we make it the preferred way by example, and itwill happen.

Just as sure as a group of fighters will adopt the local Kinghts style and shot selection...


Dilan

im all for privateers. they are employed by the crown. sure, they are pirates to the bad guys, but who cares what they think anyway!

there is nothing as low as a pirate. they trade in murder, thievery, slavery, rape, and cowardice. they still exist in many parts of the world and yet uneducated people and hollywood praise them. ill never understand that. one look at what they leave behind when they find some poor family with their children sailing the south pacific is usually enough to get some people to realize claiming to be a pirate, even in a game, is pretty stupid.

but privateers with letters of marque (or reprisal) are all good by me.

regards
logan

Owen wrote:

same goes for those that call themselves pirates, thieves, smugglers, whatever.

How do you feel about privateers?

Owen wrote:We'd have to carry photo-id for our STUFF?!?

Yep. One picture of a portrait or statue or armour of the time should cost you maybe a dollar.

This shouldn't be too expensive or too hard to do.

It would also prove that an "attempt" has been made.

There will be no authentic portraits of elves, vampires, etc...

-Aaron

i knew better than to think you were attempting to insult me. but it did come across that way when you felt the need to remind me that the sca is (or in my case, was) a hobby.

after i won my first crown i was scared to death that i would screw up the job and make the kingdom a less than pleasant place. i asked a good friend of mine eorl kane what i needed to do to be a good king. he said, "you are a great man, be yourself and you will be a great king". well i did that and it worked well for me.

that said, i take loyalty very seriously. i take it seriously in the real world and in the sca. ive tasted the flavor of mistrusted loyalty in both venues and it tastes like bitter shit. i loathe that and the idea of it disgusts me.

so if someone decides to parade around as a loyalty pimp in the sca i dont pay them any attention. if they want to go fight for the other side because they have some dear friends over there, or the sides are not close to being fair, or the wind is blowing out of the east and they come to me and ask my permission, im fine with that. but to be proud that your loyalty can be bought and to think so highly of yourself that you think others should pay for your services makes me ill.

certain groups that come to sca events and are not part of the sca certainly have a right to decide where they will fight or who they will fight for. as long as they come and say "hey man, it would be an honor to fight with you guys this war" i would welcome them with open arms. might even cook them a dinner myself afterwards. but if they come and ask me what i will give them for them to field with me, i only laugh and walk away. again, i dont pay anyone for their loyalty.

thats all really. nothing more, no judgment call on them in the real world. nothing like that. just on that side of the line i draw they are what they are.

regards
logan

Templar Bob/De Tyre wrote:Logan:

No, I did not intend that as an insult--and am distressed that you took my commentary as one.

My commentary is primarily reaction to another thread that's running on a parallel course as this one--and an observation that many people take certain aspects of this hobby way too seriously (to the point of placing value judgements on people that are not merited). Such happens too frequently in the Society.

An individual who gives of their time to further this hobby (in expectation of recognition or not) can be encouraged to even greater service by even a kind word from their Crown. And while I know that the eyes of the Crown can't be everywhere, the idea of the Royalty seeing a person who is in a mercenary household (who otherwise promotes the Crown's interests) as lacking in character seems rather arbitrary.

Or am I not clearly (or fairly) seeing your view on this? I'm asking because I'm trying to understand it.

Irish wrote:Well, you pretty much eliminate all personas pre 800.

Why? There were examples portraits, statues, renditions of human form all the way back to the cave paintings. Now I would be opposed to somebody basing their garb off of cave paintings (while the really COULD be French…. ), but there were examples of that, to include weapons (spears).

Irish wrote: Real change is going to start at the individual level first and foremost. We make it fun to be accurate, we make it the preferred way by example, and it will happen.

Agreed. Enforcement by changing the rules isn’t always effective, especially if large sections of the population opposes it.

I just thought that a painting or portrait would be a good basis for gauging authenticity. I know there are no recorded paintings of elves, bikinis, vampires, madus, florintine, etc… in the pre 17th Century European historical record.

-Aaron

im all for privateers. they are employed by the crown. sure, they are pirates to the bad guys, but who cares what they think anyway!

Cool. Somewhere around here I've got Letters of Marque and Reprisal from the (then) Principality of Aethelmarc. I am perfectly happy and willing to give you a percentage of all Prizes, for such Letters from you.

my opinion on "pirates" is well known and i have hurt more than one cool ass black leather pants wearing, skull and crossbones flying, rapier fighting, eye patch wearing, sex machines feelings in my kingdom by speaking my mind on that subject. but i really dont care.

i offered to grant letters of marque to anyone that could provide me with a well written letter of loss to another sovereign nation, real (sca) or imagined. i had two individuals tell me they would write them during my third reign. i did back to back reigns and never got anything. laziness.

but fortunately many of the "pirates" have withered away here in atlantia and now settle for calling themselves rapier fighters. not sure why that isnt cool enough for the rest but oh well.

actually the rapier fighters and their community in atlantia have really impressed me a lot over the years. they are becoming more educated, more skillful, better dressed, and less with the dumb theatrics. they are stopping with the silliness on the field and the dumb scenarios and actually focusing on the art form itself. they have even policed themselves and are now awarding recognition (prizes and what not) for the best period container for their gear, best side of the field presentation, and things similar. even saw fewer skulls painted on fencing masks before i stopped going to events. the most recent stuff is stuff i glean from their email list and photos they post to the web.

the heavy community could learn a lesson from them and i am proud of all that they have done so far and look forward to hearing more about it. i have a few rapier guys in my household and i would like to see them gain the same respect that the heavy community gets.


regards
logan

Owen wrote:

im all for privateers. they are employed by the crown. sure, they are pirates to the bad guys, but who cares what they think anyway!

Cool. Somewhere around here I've got Letters of Marque and Reprisal from the (then) Principality of Aethelmarc. I am perfectly happy and willing to give you a percentage of all Prizes, for such Letters from you.

If readers of this thread are still interested in the original issue, here's my 2 cents.

There is no mechanism in the SCA that will allow for a massive social revolution, like consistent and uniform enforcement of "attempt at..."

I was a member of the Board of Directors for 3 years in the mid 80s and I have a keen appreciation of how limited the Board's powers are.

Kings and Queens have a great deal of power to get one thing done if they want to devote all their energy to it, but after 6 months all bets are off.

You have to think strategically and medievally if you want to promote change.

Medieval tournaments and jousts had patrons and presiding nobles, and by gum, so do ours. Kings and Barons and autocrats and other hosts, working together, can encourage a higher level of fighting gear by setting standards for admission to high profile events. Done properly and firmly yet diplomatically, this can make a difference. A requirement for Crown contestants to wear authentic looking footwear that has been routinely enforced in Calontir for over a decade has resulted in a whole kingdom where people have good footwear -- not just fighters, just about everybody.

You want quick results, you want the supertanker to change course in a mile or a minute, well, you are out of luck. I've been in this org for over 3 decades and it's still not perfect. Why should you get faster results?

if he was a member of my kingdom and fought against me without my permission or for payment, or he demanded payment to fight with the kingdom he lives in, hell no. by the way, i think service, like fighting, is its own reward. i only reward those that i think dont care about it and only serve to better the game for others. if i miss them its ok since they dont care about cookies and trinkets. if i can point out their character and sacrifice to others as an inspiration and thank them personally at the same time, then i am doing my job. i dont think that a man that sells his loyalty in the sca has a lot of character.

Oh my GOD what a cop out! SOrry Logan.. this is NOT meant as an insult.. but that is such a weenie attitude!

WHat you just said is:

"if they think they deserve an award, they dont"

"If they dont care about the award, and I dont give them one, then it doesnt matter because they shouldnt want one anyway"

Eh?

I'm sure you refused the white belt and spurs till someone caught you alseep and nailed em on you, right? Cause fighting is its own reward, and all? And the only reason you ended up as crown was cause everyone else was killed in a freak lightning storm?

I know you dont feel this way for real (or hope not, anyway) but that is certainly the way it came across.

Maeryk

there is nothing as low as a pirate. they trade in murder, thievery, slavery, rape, and cowardice. they still exist in many parts of the world and yet uneducated people and hollywood praise them. ill never understand that. one look at what they leave behind when they find some poor family with their children sailing the south pacific is usually enough to get some people to realize claiming to be a pirate, even in a game, is pretty stupid.

As opposed to medieval knights, who were _always_ paragons of virtue, chivalry, etc? Please.. I can find you accounts of the Knights Templar that made the pirates you list above look like mother Theresa. You guys are playing at a victorian/hollywood version of knights just as much as someone playing at a pirate is playing at a hollywood version of a pirate. I'm not saying you dont have a right to your opinion, you certainly do, but thats a pretty weak justification for it, in my book.

Maeryk

Were all knights paragons of Virtue and Chivalry? Nope. Were some? History shows us that some were. Are all SCA knights paragons of virtue and Chivalry? I wish I could honestly answer yes, but I really can't.

Pirates, on the other hand, were a group of people who murdered, raped, and stole. They had no noble purpose. They were greedy, murdering bandits on the high seas. Privateers at least used these skills against thier liege's enemies.

Just trying to put things in perspective.

Bran

I understand your point, Bran, but for someone who is portraying a hollywood ideal to bitch about someone else portraying a hollywood ideal.. its kinda.. weird?

Maeryk

i bet if i said ice was cold you would have some half asleep retort.

sorry if you cant grasp what i am saying but i really dont feel like trying to explain everything at a level that you understand. like i said, the tit for tat isnt worth it to me anymore.

oh, and the knight thing, you really have no idea what happened. but just to satisfy the curious i was told that the plan was to knight me at pennsic. they had already informed my lady and then i won my first crown. when asked if i wanted to wait until after the reign to quell the stupid rumor mongers that think people get knighted for winning a crown my response was simply to do what the order felt was right. i never aspired to be a knight, i didnt know what it was all about and i didnt care. i just did what i thought was right. but unlike you i didnt have an anti knight bug in my ass so the concept didnt seem suspect to me. i was judged by my betters and i was inducted into their company.

sheesh

logan

Maeryk wrote:

if he was a member of my kingdom and fought against me without my permission or for payment, or he demanded payment to fight with the kingdom he lives in, hell no. by the way, i think service, like fighting, is its own reward. i only reward those that i think dont care about it and only serve to better the game for others. if i miss them its ok since they dont care about cookies and trinkets. if i can point out their character and sacrifice to others as an inspiration and thank them personally at the same time, then i am doing my job. i dont think that a man that sells his loyalty in the sca has a lot of character.

Oh my GOD what a cop out! SOrry Logan.. this is NOT meant as an insult.. but that is such a weenie attitude!

WHat you just said is:

"if they think they deserve an award, they dont"

"If they dont care about the award, and I dont give them one, then it doesnt matter because they shouldnt want one anyway"

Eh?

I'm sure you refused the white belt and spurs till someone caught you alseep and nailed em on you, right? Cause fighting is its own reward, and all? And the only reason you ended up as crown was cause everyone else was killed in a freak lightning storm?

I know you dont feel this way for real (or hope not, anyway) but that is certainly the way it came across.

Maeryk

I think that the "must bring a picture" rule would be great. Even with a lot of leeway on the pictures, it owuld bring a lot of people in line, and make them do some of the first research into garb and armor that they have ever done in their lives.

I am often times surprised by some people's percepetions of what some armor looks like, i.e. a sallet does not look like a spun bowl with a lobster tail put on it. There would have to be some obvious leeway for talent and skil at armoouring and clothing, but if someone is making a genuine ATTEMPT then to look like a certain picture, it ouwl be much more obvious.

Alaric


PS- I think that HRH Felix is doing something like that for the upcoming Crown Tournament here (and that is one of the only reasons that I have been considering fighting in it).

Maeryk wrote:I understand your point, Bran, but for someone who is portraying a hollywood ideal to bitch about someone else portraying a hollywood ideal.. its kinda.. weird?

Maeryk

Actually, I don't think you do. I guess I wasn't clear, which I have a bad habit of doing apparently. In the Middle Ages, some knights WERE virtuous and Chivalrous. Not all were, but some certianly were. You remark about someone trying to portray a "hollywood ideal" but I personally have never seen that from Duke Logan. Granted, I only met the man once in person and he wasn't even a Duke then, but to say he's trying to portray a hollywood ideal is inaccurate. Not only that, but he's not the only knight in the SCA who is has a problem with the pirate thing. Personally, I do as well. Early in my SCA career, I liked the idea of being a pirate. However, I decided to be a privateer instead. Just the idea of being a murdering bandit bothered me. I have seen the hollywood ideal of pirates. Johnny Depp did the job beautifully if you ask me. But history doesn't even come close. Now, I try to act as a knight of the Middle Ages would have acted. I'm no knight, but I can at least try to act knightly. Pirate personas however, don't even have that.

At least with knighthood, the hollywood ideal that you talk of is a misunderstanding of period ideals. Not an outright fabrication, such as with piracy. Most of the hollywood knights are based on Victorian era stories. While these aren't accurate, they are at least closer to the truth than the victorian stories of piracy. Both are romanticized to be certian, but at least the stories of knighthood are a bit closer to the truth.

I don't know if this cleared it up at all, since my mind is racing in a hundred different directions tonight. Sorry if I only wasted your time.

Bran

No, no waste of time! YOu cleared your point up beatifully.

I guess "pirates" is a bad example.. cause I agree with you on that one. But for some people, its the "fun costume party" aspect.

But my persona, my LK persona, is kinda a merc. (Note: I have never EVER fought against my kingdom if it was represented in a battle scenario.. I have fought against my KING.. but thats different.)

If you take the attitude that this is a tournament: Then playing for the "other side" is the same as picking teams in a football game.. its not dishonourable. If you are playing that this is REAL WAR, then it is real war.. not a "tournament". Most of the people I have seen espousing these ideals cloud that water depending on which side of it they are on.

My persona is a Landsknecht in Maximillians army, on the campaign trail. THe battles we fight at Pennsic or whatever, are to me, not against the middle kingdom.. they are against the swiss.. (Damn swiss! DONT WEAR CHECKERS!). in my "dream" there IS no mid realm king, no atlantian king, no eastern king.. I can see the fog and in that fog its "us" vs "them".

Now.. off the field I do service of other sorts.. but to find that in trying to recreate my medieval self to its best level I have damaged my ability within the SCA to be rewarded with the system that is set in place, by doing what hte SCA encourages us to do. .well, put quite frankly, thats a hot steamin load of bullshit.

I'm sure the point some of the Knights here are trying to get across is _NOT_ "you arent worthy to hit me cause you arent of my rank".. but that sure is hell how it is coming across, and that is what leaves some people with a serious distaste in their mouths for knights and knighthood in general. (Not a dig on anyone here.. just the way the posts seem to come across at times!). we are ALL assumed to be noble.. so the peasants tossing TP in the peasants battle are nobles too folks.. they just dont have that spandy belt or coronet or bird or wreath.

Get my point?

Maeryk
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I think the point many of the knights are trying to make in this thread and others is that having a Merc persona isn't the problem. The problem is when you fight against king and kingdom without so much as a "by your leave Your Magesty". If we are all trying to be noble, then that would be the polite thing to do, just my opinion on that.

You have said you have never fought against your kingdom. I applaud you. Several knights I know who dislike many mercs would have no problem with you. Some knights might, but you must follow your own heart.

I live in Meridies. I have never lived in another kingdom. I have never fought against my kingdom. Never. I have fought against my king, but only at melee events within the kingdom. I assume this is the type of situtation you refer to in your post about having fought against your king, correct?

Bran

participants must make an attempt at a SPECIFIC culture between 600 and 1600 CE.

that is a good one too gargoyle. It should be something more like, "they should only make an attempt at one specific culture at a time."

I mean I don't mind if I guy comes to an even and wears Roman garb,a nd then decides to fight in 14th century- as long as eah outfit is consistent with itself it is cool.

Alaric