The Armour Archive

Guys, it strikes me as being somewhat ludicrous that folks are looking for new ways to make the SCA more authenic in appearance at the same time that Society Officers are telling people to take their study of history elsewhere. On the one hand you have people saying 'Be more historical' and on the other you have people saying 'Sorry, the SCA doesn't study that aspect [historical combat] of history, maybe you would happier somewhere else'.

Good discussion topic Alaric, I wish I had time to comment on more. I’ve heard a member of the BOD put forward, that enforcement of our current standard “an attemptâ€Â

Jehan de Pelham wrote:I saw a flak jacket three weeks ago.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

Jehan!!!
You promised you woldn't tell on me!!!!!

I happen to find them comforting and soothing.

-Dmitriy


(edited for Jehan)

What!? By God's Body! You don't wear a flak jacket into battle do you, your excellency?!

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

With all due respect, Your Grace...
A couple of observations, firstly. Tuchux do regularly attend SCA events other than Pennsic. One Tuchux, Master Denis the Decadent, Companion of the Order of the Pelican, once clan chief of the Wolverine Clan is sufficiently active and contributes enough to have been recognised with a Patent of Arms. Another, known in the Tuchux as Sky of the Wolverine Clan, has just stepped down as a landed Baroness in Lochac, and is one of the most capable "ground up" A&S folks I have ever seen in or out of the SCA. Part of her Tuchux garb was made from animal skins from beasts she skinned, tanned the hide and then constructed, for example. At the moment she is making me a new gambeson padded with felt from raw wool that she has carded and felted herself. It is hand stitched with linen thread, and the outer and inner surfaces are linen, and based on a 13th manuscript illustration of a melee. I can name other Tuchux who, in their fields, do very good work, like Marduk's ceramics, Anomie's herblore and Minimal's recreation of a very large warrior (ok, the last one is a stretch...).

.

Secondly, the knight you fought in the Best of the Best Tourney is Sir Agro Agwesi, Baron of the Court of the West, from the Barony of Riverhaven in the Kingdom of Lochac. The shades of green he wears are actually documentable tones. The ninja turtle shield is an affectation from his early days in the SCA. Usually he fights with a coffin lid shield, or spear (not mardu!) and sword.

As for the pre-17th century "attempt" clause, I am one of those who would see it banished to the depths of obscurity occupied by freon tank helms and the ilk. I know of one local member here who has worn black jeans, a pirate shirt and black cowboy boots (festooning his body with all manner of swords and knives) for nearing 20 years. I find this abhorrent. I know that locally we have amply proved to people that it is oft-times cheaper and easier to create period clothing than it is to fudge modern clothes into looking "medievaloidish" time and time again. I've also seen horrible armor rendered invisible through the agency of a pretty surcoat.

I see naught wrong with the Crown exercising the privileges of that rank by deeming that a person has not made suffcient attempt at garb (the wise Crown would ensure said person was not a newcomer, or an infrequent visitor).

The question people have to face is, "Are we a serious historical recreation group, or just people at a themed fancy dress party?". I would hope that the former was the case. If we lose a few participants, so be it. There are other games they can play, such as LARP, fandom, or attending mundane BDSM clubs, if that be their bent. After nearing 40 years it would seem a good time to allow the group to evolve, and evolution is a process of improving the good stock as well as deselecting the poor stock. Certainly groups such as ACW, ECW and many of the British living history groups don't seem to lack for numbers because of their stricter requirements. Of course, I also believe in "pay to play" but that's another point all together.


YiS

Baron Gwynfor Lwyd, OP

With all due respect, Your Grace...
A couple of observations, firstly. Tuchux do regularly attend SCA events other than Pennsic. One Tuchux, Master Denis the Decadent, Companion of the Order of the Pelican, once clan chief of the Wolverine Clan is sufficiently active and contributes enough to have been recognised with a Patent of Arms. Another, known in the Tuchux as Sky of the Wolverine Clan, has just stepped down as a landed Baroness in Lochac, and is one of the most capable "ground up" A&S folks I have ever seen in or out of the SCA. Part of her Tuchux garb was made from animal skins from beasts she skinned, tanned the hide and then constructed, for example. At the moment she is making me a new gambeson padded with felt from raw wool that she has carded and felted herself. It is hand stitched with linen thread, and the outer and inner surfaces are linen, and based on a 13th manuscript illustration of a melee. I can name other Tuchux who, in their fields, do very good work, like Marduk's ceramics, Anomie's herblore and Minimal's recreation of a very large warrior (ok, the last one is a stretch...).

.

Secondly, the knight you fought in the Best of the Best Tourney is Sir Agro Agwesi, Baron of the Court of the West, from the Barony of Riverhaven in the Kingdom of Lochac. The shades of green he wears are actually documentable tones. The ninja turtle shield is an affectation from his early days in the SCA. Usually he fights with a coffin lid shield, or spear (not mardu!) and sword.

As for the pre-17th century "attempt" clause, I am one of those who would see it banished to the depths of obscurity occupied by freon tank helms and the ilk. I know of one local member here who has worn black jeans, a pirate shirt and black cowboy boots (festooning his body with all manner of swords and knives) for nearing 20 years. I find this abhorrent. I know that locally we have amply proved to people that it is oft-times cheaper and easier to create period clothing than it is to fudge modern clothes into looking "medievaloidish" time and time again. I've also seen horrible armor rendered invisible through the agency of a pretty surcoat.

I see naught wrong with the Crown exercising the privileges of that rank by deeming that a person has not made suffcient attempt at garb (the wise Crown would ensure said person was not a newcomer, or an infrequent visitor).

The question people have to face is, "Are we a serious historical recreation group, or just people at a themed fancy dress party?". I would hope that the former was the case. If we lose a few participants, so be it. There are other games they can play, such as LARP, fandom, or attending mundane BDSM clubs, if that be their bent. After nearing 40 years it would seem a good time to allow the group to evolve, and evolution is a process of improving the good stock as well as deselecting the poor stock. Certainly groups such as ACW, ECW and many of the British living history groups don't seem to lack for numbers because of their stricter requirements. Of course, I also believe in "pay to play" but that's another point all together.


YiS

Baron Gwynfor Lwyd, OP

(Gwynfor works tirelessly at armouring to get his locals wearing good looking starter's rigs, I still wear a set of 'Gwynfor Legs' while my 'Sinric's' are on the workbench and they don't clash overly with my 1475 Swiss plate. Also, Sir Agro is a highly respected person over here and I feel very strongly about this dissertation apon his gear without a chance for him to answer personally, I'd really appreciate it if we could limit our conversations on his gear until someone brings the points to his attention and sees if he wishes to answer himself.)

I've made points about dragging everyone up to a more authentic level via combat over on the R&A forum, I'll add them here:

Over the years this has been discussed a few times, and a phenomenon has naturally arisen to deal with the desire for almost-LH authenticity standards. These are, of course, the various households and tourney companies that do stalwart service in SCA education (we need it more than the public!) and leading the way for people to adopt a more historical approach at their game.
Inertia is the enemy, I have a few friends who publically say they're of no real portrayal, they just want to be great stick-fighters. This is a few people saying what a vast majority think.
The way ahead, in my humble opinion, is a two tiered system.

Keep stick fighting as Heavy Combat, don't change it at all.

Create a Super Heavy Combat which involves period armour styles, realistic armour cracking blows (no wraps and snaps) with proper follow through and realistic weaponry for defeating armour. Ensure that the rules demand a period portrayal.

Why should a Heavy Combat fighter change? His lightweight torso armour is good at what it does, as is his lightweight flick-stick. A bargrille is prefered over an eyeslot, even a ridiculous 25mm eyeslot, because it does the job well and gives high visibility combined with good SCA protection. The Heavy enjoys his game and should be allowed to play it, I have no authority to stop people playing their fun game.

In wars, they can fight together, it's just that the Heavies can't damage the Superheavies unless they use a pollweapon against them. This is starting to look like a real war, with massively armoured knights forming the kernal of the killing machine, supported by infantry that exploit the slow and massively armoured spearhead.

Try this system of another tier that stresses historicity combined with advantages on other facets, you will see a steady migration towards it by people who desire to 'succeed at the game' and it will provide an avenue for those who desire to be historical to tread that is not denigrated by those who couldn't be bothered.

i always find this kind of "discussion" as amusing. especially when people spout on about "creative" this and "attempt" that. a quick study of english and one second to look up the term 'anachronism' should solve all of the disagreements. ninja turtles, tennis shoes, coleman chairs, and plastic armor are not anachronisms. i dont care how nice or how hard the person with them worked. they do not belong. it really is such a simple concept.

regards
logan

anachronismn 1The attribution of something to a historical period in which it did not exist. 2 a person, thing or attitude that is out of date and old fashioned.
- adj anachronistic. - adv anachronistically.
[Grana,backwards + chronos,time.]

exactly. so a coleman chair being sat in by a guy in blue jeans in 2004 is not anachronistic. a period styled bench being sat upon by an armored "knight" in 2004 is. it really is as simple as that. but so often the exact description of the organization is ignored in the name of convenience (laziness).

regards
logan

Reinhard wrote:anachronismn 1The attribution of something to a historical period in which it did not exist. 2 a person, thing or attitude that is out of date and old fashioned.
- adj anachronistic. - adv anachronistically.
[Grana,backwards + chronos,time.]

I don't believe that anyone is calling Sir Agro's niceness, or service into question, but rather the device chosen to put on his shield in combination with the colors he wore on the field.

If fluorescent green is period, please show me the documentation for it, I would love to start using that color for things myself.

Ninja Turtles are not period. A knight should know that. Where I made the mistake once of thinking that the tribal pattern on a pair of pants I wore might squeak by unnoticed -ONCE- this gentleman obviously has chosen to use this shield and these colors for a long time as evinced by the wear and tear upon his gear.

And I am not saying that ninja turtles and the like can't have their place in what we do either- but they should be hidden, or worked into a motif so they don't stand glaringly out as obvious anomolies within our anachronistic sport.

Alaric

Ahhh...once again Finnvarr is the voice of reason.... this is getting to be a habit for you Your Grace....

Finnvarr wrote:If readers of this thread are still interested in the original issue, here's my 2 cents.

There is no mechanism in the SCA that will allow for a massive social revolution, like consistent and uniform enforcement of "attempt at..."

I was a member of the Board of Directors for 3 years in the mid 80s and I have a keen appreciation of how limited the Board's powers are.

Kings and Queens have a great deal of power to get one thing done if they want to devote all their energy to it, but after 6 months all bets are off.

You have to think strategically and medievally if you want to promote change.

Medieval tournaments and jousts had patrons and presiding nobles, and by gum, so do ours. Kings and Barons and autocrats and other hosts, working together, can encourage a higher level of fighting gear by setting standards for admission to high profile events. Done properly and firmly yet diplomatically, this can make a difference. A requirement for Crown contestants to wear authentic looking footwear that has been routinely enforced in Calontir for over a decade has resulted in a whole kingdom where people have good footwear -- not just fighters, just about everybody.

You want quick results, you want the supertanker to change course in a mile or a minute, well, you are out of luck. I've been in this org for over 3 decades and it's still not perfect. Why should you get faster results?

DukeAlaric wrote:I don't believe that anyone is calling Sir Agro's niceness, or service into question, but rather the device chosen to put on his shield in combination with the colors he wore on the field.
<snip>

I agree, and the discussions have been very cool so far, it's just that we've mentioned an individual as an example rather than stay in the general. This can easily descend into a put-shit-on-so-and-so's-rig fest that I find unpleasant when the person in question isn't here to defend themselves. All too often group activities such as ours can involve a mind numbing amount of bitchiness, and I'm trying to keep it down before it even happens. As I've said, no one has looked like going over the edge so far, but let's not single out individuals please.

Looking back over the thread, it seems to be a fair summary that:

People feel that the standard will not be enforced uniformly.

People also feel that it is difficult to say where 'authentic' should be set.

People are also irked by blatant 'rules evasion'.

Well, I suppose the 'ten foot rule' could be invoked, but it's far more a guide than a rule and enforcing even that is quite difficult. I think that we may be stuck with the SCA as it is. (So I'm looking to join a LH group doing late 15th Australia in Southern Australia, if anyone reading this is in one there, just PM me)

Wow, I didnt realize that the archive reached into alternative universes. Because Denis the decadent, or after he got sober: Denis the decent, was NEVER the chief of the Wolverine clan. Goddam, I almost spit diet pepsi all over my computer laughing at that. What a hoot!