The Armour Archive

I've been looking through the Gulf Wars site and the Archive looking to see if there will be a Pas or any other "non SCA standard" tournament (counted blows, Plate and Mail, As Real Men Fought, etc.), but I'm not finding any information. Am I missing a posting/listing somewhere, or are there no special conventions tournaments happening? I'm trying to figure out how many different harnesses I need to pack ...

Based on some other conversations, I would say that such tournaments will be a lot harder to come by in the future sinch the SEM came down so hard on the "As Real Men Fought" and others.

Sadly, SCA, Inc has taken the low road at every turn when it comes to developing our fighting.

Other than the grappling, I can't see how we are being held back to push the envelope. We still suck in the presentation department, and most of us shy away from using the High Speech in the lists. I think that those people who want to do the SCA a favor should first strive to reach Living History levels of presentation in kit, and work on making their weapons and shields as nice as possible, instead of worrying about just how much grappling we can do.
Tournaments and deeds of arms of all types had rules, and we have these rules and limitations as well. Let's all work on getting realistic-looking helmets, greaves of some type and medieval-looking shoes first. Let's concentrate on trying to use relief work on shields, and stop bringing shields without blazon into the lists. Let's work on making real banners, painting anything that needs painting, and hiring real field heralds to cry challenges for us. We still don't look like and act like noblemen yet.
We already fight like noblemen, because noblemen had to contend with rules, limitations and the opinions of spectators and judges. What we don't do is look the part, think the part and act the part, and IMHO that is more important than whether or not we can grab sword blades (although half-swording should be allowed.)
I am not interested in regular SCA tournaments anymore, and I am not really interested in SCA Pas anymore, because how many can compare to the stuff that St. Michael is doing? Sir Rhys came out with gold-plated buttons and gold-plated belt mounts last year! They have musicians! Galleron's kit is astounding! Sure, we pound on each other every year- one year Poleaxe at the barriers is the thing, and the next year bastard swords is the thing, one year it's lances on foot and the next year it will be something else. The fighting will take care of itself- WE DON'T LOOK RIGHT, AND WE DON'T SPEAK RIGHT.
I have a Company that is planning a Deed of Arms for a year from this Easter- over one year away. We are called The Seven, and we plan on going all out. I myself will have gold leaf on my shield, plumes on my head and precious stones sewn on my torse. I must try to keep up with Rhys and Galleron because they are trying to do it right.
Thank you for reading this little tirade.
God bless.

Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:Sadly, SCA, Inc has taken the low road at every turn when it comes to developing our fighting.

Sounds like one more reason to go to Ragnaroc

-Loegaire

Vitus wrote:
[snip]
We still suck in the presentation department, and most of us shy away from using the High Speech in the lists. I think that those people who want to do the SCA a favor should first strive to reach Living History levels of presentation in kit, and work on making their weapons and shields as nice as possible, instead of worrying about just how much grappling we can do.

Whoo-HOOO! I'm tired of King's who say things like "You Rock!" and knights who would confuse William the Marshal with Marshall Dillon!

[quote'"Vitus]
Tournaments and deeds of arms of all types had rules, and we have these rules and limitations as well. Let's all work on getting realistic-looking helmets, greaves of some type and medieval-looking shoes first. Let's concentrate on trying to use relief work on shields, and stop bringing shields without blazon into the lists. Let's work on making real banners, painting anything that needs painting, and hiring real field heralds to cry challenges for us. We still don't look like and act like noblemen yet.
We already fight like noblemen, because noblemen had to contend with rules, limitations and the opinions of spectators and judges. What we don't do is look the part, think the part and act the part, and IMHO that is more important than whether or not we can grab sword blades (although half-swording should be allowed.)
[/quote]

Oh, my. Now -there's- a radical concept! Vitus, can I come play in your neck of the woods? I'm in Caid, where the "pad boys" have largely won, except for some outstanding folk doing some lamellar work, some really nice -looking- aluminum plate, and a few standouts. The "look" is better than it has been, but the quality of behavior and showmanship is, as you say, largely lacking, from people standing by the lists between rounds with their MP3 players plugged into their ears to armor that has more duct tape than strapping.

Vitus wrote:I am not interested in regular SCA tournaments anymore, and I am not really interested in SCA Pas anymore, because how many can compare to the stuff that St. Michael is doing? Sir Rhys came out with gold-plated buttons and gold-plated belt mounts last year! They have musicians! Galleron's kit is astounding! Sure, we pound on each other every year- one year Poleaxe at the barriers is the thing, and the next year bastard swords is the thing, one year it's lances on foot and the next year it will be something else. The fighting will take care of itself- WE DON'T LOOK RIGHT, AND WE DON'T SPEAK RIGHT.
I have a Company that is planning a Deed of Arms for a year from this Easter- over one year away. We are called The Seven, and we plan on going all out. I myself will have gold leaf on my shield, plumes on my head and precious stones sewn on my torse. I must try to keep up with Rhys and Galleron because they are trying to do it right.
Thank you for reading this little tirade.
God bless.

Wow. I am seriously impressed by the thought of some of these things. As a "devil's advocate" on the other hand, I must also recall that people have different goals, and that some folk who fight are far more interested in the martial skill than the appropriate behavior and decoration of the conjectured period. I would suggest there's room for both, but truthfully, at almost age 50 with a lot of arthritis, I don't do that well martially anymore, but could at least -behave- and -act- properly.

Vitus, I'd love to see pictures from that feat next year.

Jared Blaydeaux
Caid

Therion wrote:I've been looking through the Gulf Wars site and the Archive looking to see if there will be a Pas or any other "non SCA standard" tournament (counted blows, Plate and Mail, As Real Men Fought, etc.), but I'm not finding any information. Am I missing a posting/listing somewhere, or are there no special conventions tournaments happening? I'm trying to figure out how many different harnesses I need to pack ...

I haven't heard of any this year. I don't why maybe all the people who usually put them together and run them are tired or simply busy.

But why does that matter to what harnesses you bring? There will be plenty of opportunity to use them.

Brandr

Vitus, I agree with everything you say, except for the primary point of your argument.

Seriously, it's nice to say that we should take care of appearances first, and I'm all for it. I'm constantly upgrading my kit, and I can't wait until I look half as good as you and those guys in St. Michael do.

But, respectfully, the fighting will not take care of itself. First of all, the skills that you develop reflect the goals that you wish to accomplish, and are influenced by the rules you use to model combat. If you are not using a good model -- or in, my opinion, models -- you will not develop fighting skills; you will develop game skills.

Secondly, it takes time to develop authentic fighting skills. Bob Charron and Christian Tobler could possibly fight as the knights did; very few of the rest of us can say the same. These are martial arts we're talking about; you don't just pick them up because you look the part. If I worked very hard for a few years, I might start to be able to say that I know something about Western Martial arts. Right now, I can only say that I know enough to begin to know how ignorant I am.

But once again let me reiterate that I agree with you that we should look the part.

One question, though: What is High Speech? You say it with caps as though it were a recognized dialect. Or are you just referring to a sort of upper-class Middle English?

Remember, Noe, you are talking to somebody who is not exactly a convert to the gospel of the fectbuchs. Knowing what I know about formal deeds of arms in the M.A., there seems to have been many approaches out there, and some were based upon pure, simple brute force or just wearing the other guy down. I just don't think I care much about Bob and Christian's type of knowledge, because there are no situations in which they can apply the systems they have "mastered." I am more interested in what that gentle knight from Scola Solis (I can't believe I have forgotten his name) and Rhys are doing to apply medieval techniques to deeds of arms that we *can* perform. Not once have I seen either Bob or Christian perform any deeds of arms in plate harness with arms of peace.
As for the "pad boys"...there is nothing wrong with wearing next-to-no armour on your upper body if your fighting garment looks historically accurate. Leg armour is a must though to get the look right.

Noe wrote:Vitus, I agree with everything you say, except for the primary point of your argument.

Good post Noe. I couldn't aggre more.

Yes Vitus, I agree with all the details but not the central arguement.

Buying/making/stealing really cool armour/clothes/banners/furniture/stuff is nice, but it's not why I'm there.

Talking in a dramatic and thematically appropriate manner is cool, but it's not the point of the SCA.

I think there is just as much virtue in martial endeavor, study of period technique, exploration of historical ideals and philosophies, experience of the thrill of combat, and many other things.

If we decided to stop wearing costumes and just fight and study fighting in a historical mannner while wearing gis or red t-shirts i would have less fun but I would still have fun. If we kept the costumes but ditched the rest, I would stay home.

Aside from the completely unnecessary and inappropriate definition of grappling, we also have a crackdown on the Tuchuck tournament for people grabbing their own blades (followed shortly by legalization of such activity???), rulings that the study of period fighting manuals is banned, and the list goes on. We need to watch out for the stuff people have, but we also need to watch out for the stuff people do.

Brandr wrote:But why does that matter to what harnesses you bring? There will be plenty of opportunity to use them.

Brandr

Brandr,
Some of the Pennsic tourney's they mention earlier are very armor specefic. If you have the wrong harness for that tourney you do not compete. Plate and mail tourney is just that, Armor as worn (IIRC) and it MUST be correct plate and chain harness. Leather like I wear, even though the design is based on plate is not armor in that tourney. Might as well go out there naked.
I have the rules about here somewhere if you want them.
And besides would you want to bring 4 different sets of armor is you were only going to be using one ?

Lachlann wrote:And besides would you want to bring 4 different sets of armor is you were only going to be using one ?

If I had 4 suits of armour I would bring them and wear them......but I like to show off

Seriously, though I would probably wear all the different suits because so few times do we ever have a single event to do that.

Brandr

I have won more fights than I ever deserved to win, both in the lists and on the street. I just don't worry about it any more.
When I say that the fighting will take care of itself, that is just what I mean. Martial endeavor, study of period technique, exploration of historical ideals and philosophies, experience of the thrill of combat...we all care about these things. It's a given. It's obvious. It's the central point, but I am mostly interested in time travel. Time travel -in tiny bursts where everything falls into place- is influenced by what I see and hear. I can have a great fight, an inspiring fight, or an amazing fight, but if the people around me look crappy- I just don't feel satisfied. I have been to ONE tournament where I looked around me and felt satisfied by the efforts of all of the participants. Then we smashed each other with weapons. Some people used their poleaxes and longswords with documentable style, and other guys just bashed whomever came near. I am far more interested in period behaviors, attitudes and the culture of the fighting nobility than I am about whether every guy is using his buckler in a manner that jives with I33. I just don't care about that, because any boob can learn how to halfsword. I am searching for Men of Worth, based upon what I read in the Chronicles, and based upon what we know about chivalric culture. The accounts of formal deeds of arms are what inspire and guide me, not the fectbuchs. I became interested in the Tournament Company movement to see certain goals achieved, and I let other more capable people interpret and teach the tiny amount that we know about medieval martial arts.
I teach and write about chivalric culture, and how we can appy what we know to the SCA. For me, if I can defeat 90% of the fighters in the known world in a lance duel or a longsword fight- I feel that I am doing my job as a Knight. Other than that, my mission is elsewhere, and as far as I can tell the fighting will always take care of itself. People will try to win based upon the limitations and rules..I have no doubt about that.
Whether they are getting the other stuff, and whether they are even trying to get it- that is my mission. Most of us are NOT getting it. Most anyone can swing a waster around, and when Bob started teaching I had a horrible vision of Western Martial Arts schools showing up in strip malls all over the USA. Even my grandmother could learn to wind properly with a longsword, but the other stuff she would never, ever get because she would have to read alot of material, and know how to interpret and apply that material.
That is why I am Duke Finnvarr's apprentice in the SCA, and Steve Muhlberger's fan in the real world, because we are not just studying the martial arts, we are studying martial culture and chivalric culture. Without people like Finnvarr we would drift towards a martial arts sport club, that uses medievalish sport gear to keep us from getting killed when somebody applies a Talhoffer poleaxe move. Yawn.
People will always try to win, I don't have to worry about that. The other stuff- I seriously need to worry about that.

Sir Vitus -

In a previous incarnation, Bob Charron was known as Sir Conn MacNeil (sp?) and, I believe, attained the rank of Duke (or Count, I am not sure). With my own eyes I have seen him perform deeds of arms with arms of peace, although he was not wearing plate harness at the time. He has since retired from the Society as his interests have led him in other directions. To my knowledge, none of his SCA titles or rank have been stripped from him, and as such, he is still your brother knight.

Gwyneth

Vitus,

Just to be sure, we are clear. I want what you want, plus some. I want us to look right, to talk right, _and_ to fight right. I want deeds of honor, I want chivalry, and I want butt-kicking longsword work. Let's face it; i've set an almost impossible goal.

I will readily admit to the weaknesses of the fechtbuchs; but you should admit to their strengths as well. They may be flawed as all get out, but they are the best source we have for period combat techniques. To deny the scholarship that has been done to understand them is to deny the basis for authenticity of the rest of the game as well: costume, speech, and behavior.

I for one would be thrilled if longword were taught in strip malls across the country. I would love to teach the ideals of honor and chivalry to a whole generation of kids. I do not believe that chivalry and fechtbuch work are mutually incompatible and will always tie the two together.

Your fear is understandable; I too have seen the dojos, and the win-at-all costs attitude. One fellow told me that I was being stupid, that winning was everything, that surviving the fight was the only thing that mattered; I just told him that I have a tougher definition of "winning", that it wasn't just that you had survived, but how you survived. I see the strip-mall schools as a chance to teach honor as well as fighting skills.

Here in Japan, I think the people who join Avalon do so for a variety of reasons. Some of them just want to play at medieval fantasy, just like back home. With them, we try to provide a good example, which by and large they follow. Others, though, are martial artists who I like to think are drawn to the _joy_ with which we fight. Japanese dojos are serious places, full of serious men, intent on the business of learning to cause harm, intent on learning to win. The joy with which we approach our practices is a reflection of the fact that we are not just learning how to fight, but the way to do so, according to the knightly virtues.

Wow, that turned into a little rant. Sorry about that. The point is, I'm with you buddy, just don't denigrate efforts to work on period techniques, and don't ignore the effect that the rules format has on the acquisition of skills.

Noe wrote:Vitus,

Here in Japan, I think the people who join Avalon do so for a variety of reasons. Some of them just want to play at medieval fantasy, just like back home. With them, we try to provide a good example, which by and large they follow. Others, though, are martial artists who I like to think are drawn to the _joy_ with which we fight. Japanese dojos are serious places, full of serious men, intent on the business of learning to cause harm, intent on learning to win. The joy with which we approach our practices is a reflection of the fact that we are not just learning how to fight, but the way to do so, according to the knightly virtues.

This is the opposite of my experience. Having trained since the age of six in Karate and Aikido (my father is an Aikido sensei, and started me off early), I was amazed at the lack of silly stilted BS and rank-games surrounding my Saitama University kendo team. My sensei waved away my rather earnest bowing with a smile and offered to shake my hand instead, telling me that I didn't have to 'play japanese' - the same man who, an 8th dan in kendo, was famous for always smiling during practices. We had loud, obnoxious parties on the dojo floor, with hundreds of huge jars of nihonshu (sake) dead or bleeding by the end, not to mention all the beer. We goofed off constantly. And we practiced and fought hard, damn hard. But it was a joyful experience. I can say the same about a traditional sword school I attended in Osaka, and the capoeira classes I took in Kyoto.

There may be dojos in Japan that suffer from stick-up-bum disease, but there are many who show the same joy and effusive goodwill that pervade the best SCA fighter practice. FYI.

Gwyneth wrote:Sir Vitus -

In a previous incarnation, Bob Charron was known as Sir Conn MacNeil (sp?) and, I believe, attained the rank of Duke (or Count, I am not sure). With my own eyes I have seen him perform deeds of arms with arms of peace, although he was not wearing plate harness at the time. He has since retired from the Society as his interests have led him in other directions. To my knowledge, none of his SCA titles or rank have been stripped from him, and as such, he is still your brother knight.

Gwyneth

Duke Conn MacNeill, who posts here as Bob Charron...

I did not realize that in addition to St. Martin's he had retired from the SCA.

That's a pity, and quite depressing for me, since that means yet another hero of mine has left us.

I sing so many of his songs...

BdeB wrote:Duke Conn MacNeill, who posts here as Bob Charron...

I did not realize that in addition to St. Martin's he had retired from the SCA.

That's a pity, and quite depressing for me, since that means yet another hero of mine has left us.

I sing so many of his songs...

The first time that I was ever transported back in time, you know the moment when you are actually in the middle ages, was sitting around a fire in a period encampment watching His Grace sing a song and play his drum (bodrham sp?). It was magnificent.

Sorry for the off thread post.

Odo

The first time I heard Conn sing in an Encampment like that at Lillies, I literally went back to my tent and just collasped, I was so overwhelmed. And, just a few hours earlier I had sung before a hundred or so people and rocked the socks off the place.

He was just that much better than me...the total package and the exemplar of the Troubador that it sorta crushed me at the time.

I went back home and really cracked down on certain aspects of what I was doing, and few years later was reconized with a Laurel for my singing. Conn was a huge inspiration towards helping me "finish" as it were.

I had the pleasure of singing for him, and later with him a few times, when he was Prince of Northshield, and later...

Those were wonderful memories.

I apoligize for hijacking the thread.

I think i'll sing a Conn tune in the Truck on the way to pick up Melisent tonight....

I have seen Duke Conn do countless feats of arms that I could only watch with gap-jawed amazement. I have not seen Bob Charron, a teacher of 15th century martial arts, wearing full plate harness and doing the moves full speed on somebody so I can also watch *that* with gap-jawed amazement. I am just saying that it is a serious bummer that I have never seen Bob/Conn or Christian at any Pas I could get to. Christian watches the Pennsic Pas sometimes, and I have always sort of found it depressing that he didn't get out there with us and bust some moves...

As far as Duke Conn being my brother, he didn't come to my knighting. I am pissed and disappointed.