A Competitive Approach to the Study of Combat

[Madyn]

I don't quite understand SCA resistance to live steel or living history, it's like some folks can't believe anyone else will take it to a different level, not better, different.



Flonzy

Hey Flonzy. Maybe just semantics, but I don't think it's fair to lump all of the SCA into one camp. One thing about the SCA, for better or worse, is its inclusiveness. You have the guy who wants to suit up once in a while and whack someobody, and you have others who have a deep, genuine interest (or even passion) in things medieval, including the combat.

Plenty of SCA folks explore WMA and LH groups, often bringing what they found back into the SCA.

But the blade cuts both ways too. Some (although certainly not all) LH and WMA guys are immediately dismissive if you mention any affiliation with the SCA. "Oh. You're one of them. Uh huh."

SirAngus was right. It'd be nice if there was better understanding and acceptance. From all camps.

[Halvgrimr]

I think it's fun to think about this type of stuff because you will never know if you are right or wrong!

As someone who does both SCA and WMA I dont see as big a difference as alot of other who only do one. For me one influences the other.

--I totally agree with Angus

For years i have heard guys hollar about how different the types of fighting are.

I believe that my SCA combat experience has helped me tremendously in steel fighting.

Both are based on stance, footwork and landing blows.

The only real differences i see (and i say this as much as i can) is the target range is a little more limited and the blows have to be pulled at the last minute, other than those two things i do nothing different SCA fighting than i do steel fighting. Having fought Camric/Greenshield/William both SCA trained and steel trained i didnt see a noticeable difference in his fighting either (well, he is a helluva lot fast when SCA fighting;)


In steel fighting the force of the shot isnt as important as it is in the SCA but the placement is much more important.

In SCA fighting the targets are more realsitic than in steel fighting but some of the shots used to hit said targets arent as likely to be used in steel fighting.

I like both styles equally for different reasons.

I even hope to get some additional ARMA 'schooling' when i attend the History Alive event in Norfolk in October.

I am open to all forms of combat, if it opens up new doors of the mind, what can it hurt?

Halvgrimr

(note: i have only been steel fighitng for a little under a year so i dont claim to have the knowledge/prowess level of any of the WMA/ARMA/AEMMA/ect. guys)

[James B.]

Hey Flonzy. Maybe just semantics, but I don't think it's fair to lump all of the SCA into one camp.

I did say some people, did not mean to imply all of the SCA . I do SCA too.

But the blade cuts both ways too. Some (although certainly not all) LH and WMA guys are immediately dismissive if you mention any affiliation with the SCA. "Oh. You're one of them. Uh huh."

I have read a few stories about this but never have witnessed it. Guys in all the HWMA groups and LH groups I know have current or former SCAdians in them and are willing to bring in anyone that is willing to take the required steps

Flonzy

[Madyn]

Hey Flonzy. Maybe just semantics, but I don't think it's fair to lump all of the SCA into one camp.

I did say some people, did not mean to imply all of the SCA . I do SCA too.

Flonzy

Fair enough:)

I think Halvgrim has the right of it. Skills learned in one camp can be used in another. There are obvious differences between SCA and WMA groups, and certain restrictions/artifical conditions unique to both. But there's also common ground. Range control, footwork, tempo, etc.

Just bugs me when I hear "My group is beter than your group! My dad could kick your dad's ass!"

Can't we all just get along?

[Gabriel Morgan]

Boxers win more? Funny I watch ultimate fighting all the time and wrestlers and grapplers win the most there.

You have a preconceived notion that is as false as the samurai vs. knight threads that always show up. It all comes down to how is better.

What about tuchux (sp?)? They would most likely kick an SCA knights ass in a grappling environment because they already do it

Flonzy

The assertion was made that SCA people would be at a disadvantage because of a lack of grappling. The comparison would then be SCAer/boxer vs. a traditional martial artist/WMA without competitive sparring. I never once claimed boxers or SCAers were the 'cream of the crop', just as I never claimed that non-combat arts were somehow 'less' and shouldn't be studied.

But combat efficacy is a testable trait. In unarmed martials arts, we've tested that strenuously over the last 20 years. One of the results is this - you need to spar competitively and apply techniques in a high-stress environments to train for combat. If you have ANY evidence that this is incorrect, present it.

My original posts were an attempt to postulate a correlary - that since moves that work in competition also tend to work in 'real combat', that the SCA techniques should probably be considered viable until it is proven in a competition that more closely models reality that they are not.

As an aside, cross-trainers are winning all the MMA contests nowadays. You find out where your natural skills lie (boxing, or wrestling, or guard-work), train the hell out of that, then train everything else a little so you know what to do.

It doesn't always come down to the 'best man' - it always comes down to training + natural ability. There are better ways to train for combat - period. This isn't samurai vs ninja. This is, 'Think your wing chun is combat ready? Bring five friends down to the gym and let's find out." There are people in any MMA gym that are always ready for a little fun.

And yes, I have great respect for Tuchux fighting. The fact that it is more rough-and-tumble probably helps them in a great many ways.

[hjalmr]

Well heck -everyone else is sticking thier head on the block that I might as well too. Lol..

I am an SCA fighter. I have tried the WMA thing as well as the full speed blunted weapons thing and I would put my money on the experienced SCA person most of the time. The reason is because SCAer do fight at full speed while the others do limit themselves to a much more controlled system. Many SCAers I know do play outside of the SCA. I have done some full speed, full comtact, unarmored waster combat before and SCA combat does not hinder it in the least because of the full speed. I can do everything with a steel sword that I can with a rattan stick. This is probably because of my fighting style, but I proven it before and am willing to do so again. Just because an SCAers doesn't use grappling doesn't mean they don't know how. The SCA doesn't allow grappling because we have enough injuries just hitting people with sticks -grappling is much worse!! On another note, I have recieved worse injuries from rattan then blunted weapons. Many "experts" (people who have crossed over) claim that rattan hits with more force then steel and many SCAers barely notice when they do get hit and injured. I can't count the times I walked off the feild to find my few bruises were actually broken bones. The adrenaline of full speed/contact fighting usually makes impacts seem less then they are -at least until you settle down.

Also I would like to take this time to tell a story. I was a boxer for several years when I joined a local Karate class. I had done several martial arts before, but this was my first introduction to Karate. On Friday nights the class had full contact fighting with pads. As a white belt, I would usually (90% of the time) wipe the floor with the black belts simply because I was use to fighting 7 days a week, while most of them fought only a couple a days a week and then only doing non-contact kata's. The only karate fighters who gave me trouble were the professional tournament fighters who fought full contact more often the the usual martial artist.

Finally I would like to say that all techniques have thier strong points. Stuff I learned in the SCA helped in WMA and vise versa. Be fluid like water and let your training flow into everything you do.

[Angus Bjornssen]

*sigh*

Check out Part III.......


Historical Ultimate Combat Rule Set-

Part I

1. all areas of the body are legal targets.

2. combat shall be fought until one of the following conditions are met.
a. a combatant calls hold.
b. a combatant is involuntarly down AND in an untenable defensive position such that his back or chest and head is in contact with the floor or ground.
c. a combatant is rendered unconcious.
d. a combatants head or neck protection, or weapon becomes unserviceable or excessively dangerous to the opponent.
e. a combatant is visibly bleeding heavily.

3. Any combatant that meets any of the requirements of #2 a,b,c,d or e, shall be determined the loser of the match.

4. Armor requirements.
a. head protection such that a fracture to the skull is very unlikely.
b. neck protection such that a crushed trachea and/or fractured upper vertebrae is very unlikely.
c. groin protection such as used in modern sports.

5. All armor worn must be historical or constructed with as similar a material as possible and in equivalent style excepting throat armor.
a. all armor shall be inspected by an academically accepted scholar of historical armor.
b. the inspecting scholar has the right to approve armor that "could have been", based on known historical examples and his or her own research.
c. the armor harness need not be entirely of the same time time period.
d. neck armor need not be historical, it only need meet the armor requirements.
e. all armor must be serviceable, void of cracks or other detectable wear that indicates imminent failure.

6. All weapons shall be of wood (such as a wooden waster or bokun) or rebated (dull) steel.
a. the choice of weapon material is at the discretion of the combatants involved.
b. if the combatants will not agree on weapon material then the decision shall be reached by a coin toss such as used in modern sports.
b1. the coin is not required, although is encouraged, to be historical.
c. all weapons must be serviceable, void of cracks or other detectable wear that indicates imminent failure.


Part II

1. The referee shall be impartial at all times.

2. The referee shall be focused on the combat at all times.

3. The referee shall be fully trained in first aid and basic EMT skills.
a. further medical training by referees is strongly encouraged.
b. basic training of the emergency removal of historical body armor is also strongly encouraged.

4. The referee shall make no call nor interfere with combat unless one of the conditions in Part I, rule 2a,b,c,d or e is met.
a. natural disasters or other life threatening emergencies where the audience, referee or other bystanders are also in harms way shall be excepted from rule 4.

5. The referee shall wear suitable protection against potential blows from combatants whether accidental or with intent to harm.
a. the referee's protection need not be historical, however, the minimum requirements as written in Part I, rule 4a,b and c will apply.
b. greater protection over the full body is strongly recommended.

6. The referee shall carry a shield at all times.
a. the recommended shield type is a modern, police style clear plexiglass or better so as to not unduly impede the referee's vision.

7. The referee shall not be armed.

8. If the cessation of combat becomes necessary due to the requirements of Part I, 2a,b,c,d or e, or Part II, 4a, the referee shall call "hold".
a. it is recommended that the referee have an operational cordless microphone in conjunction with an operational public address system with suficient decibel level to ensure the hold call is heard by all combatants, audience members and other bystanders or similar.


Part III

1. The arena for combat shall be any area not less than a twenty five foot by twenty five foot (25' x 25') square.
a. any arena that meets the requirement of Rule 2 in at least one location within it may be of any shape and size.

2. The arena for combat shall have obstacles as the tournament hoster requires, to include no obstacles at all, excepting;
a. any artificial obstacle shall be no less than three feet (3') from another obstacle.
b. no artificial obstacle shall have edges of such sharpness that a fracture of bone is likely to occur should a combatant fall upon it.
c. rules 2a and 2b shall be considered void if the arena area is an entirely natrually occuring environment.
d. if rule 2c is in effect all combatants must be made aware that the environment is entirely natural and not a replica.

3. The arena for combat shall be set such that audience visibility and protection are provided to maximum effect.
a. a natural environment arena that does not allow good audience visiblity while maintaining protection for said audience shall have either a closed circuit television system or portable grandstands placed for audience viewability.

4. The arena for combat shall have no solid boundary excepting;
a. any naturally occuring solid boundary such as a cliff face.
b. any naturally occuring edge boundary such as a cliff edge.
c. any naturally occuring row of trees, bushes or other fauna.





Angus