The Armour Archive

Rev. George wrote:If you read or have read, I entered my art sci stuff under my name, and I also created items that someone else entered under thiers. I cannot elaborate further as it would violate my settlement w the SCA.

Since this information comes from my reccolection before this settlement, here's the story as i understood it:

Person A (ironmonger) Makes up a batch of mead. takes 2 bottles. Enters 1 under his (assumed) name, the other under a buddies.

"blind, non partisan judging" revealed that the application of a laurels name makes mead more platible/period, Even though they were the same mead.

sounds suspicious to me.

-+G

Not to me Rev. Because of issues with cleansing and rinsing properly, I've had contamination issues where bottle A from Batch X is wonderful, and Bottle B from Batch X is icky... totally surprising, but its why I sample every bottle I can before serving it to other people. We just don't have the facilities available to use to make sure that every bottle is neutrally sterilized sufficiently before serving, unlike the big breweries.

James B. wrote:Captain Jamie

I would just add that they have allowed halfswording with a short sword but not yet with a longsword where it is shown far more in the manuals.

James, that was a typo... he meant "single sword" not single-handed sword. The SCA Earl Marshal has allowed the kingdoms to allow half-swording if they so desire.

All,
My esteemed Deputy for Historical Combat Studies ( herein shortened to "Fechtbuch Boy" ), Rey has informed me that the wording for half- swording should be changed to " single swords ", not "single handed swords ".
My mistake,
Robert

"Durin Bloodaxe" patronizingly lectured:

I dont have any issues with that, but I'd like to remind some of you folks that there is more to learning about arms and armour than playing fighter in the SCA. Check out some other sites for decent info as well. Arador would be a good place to start on a more historical/scholarly path of knowledge should anyone actually find that type of path interesting.

This dweeb isn't the first to loudly talk smack at the SCA... and not the first to utterly fail to walk his talk, either. One of the telling things about those who are the quickest to trash-talk groups like the SCA, is that they're also pretty darned quick to justify their broad stereotypes with a bunch of patronizing bull-flop, and put on way too many "scholarly airs" compared to the paucity of research they actually produce...

Whereas the fact that there are SCA people involved in first-rank scholarly work just seems to pass these blowhards by. It's amusing to me, as a non-member who constantly encounters SCA and LH folks in the course of my research, to hear this constant, badly-misinformed refrain.

OK, sir, put up or shut up: what arrogates to you the intellectual or scholarly authority to condescend thus to a group of thousands of people, because a few dozen of them apparently didn't want to put up with you (and wow, we have NO idea why that might be )? Where are YOUR publications, or at least, scholarly presentations (meaning, presentations to peer researchers) now that you're trying to encourage people onto a "historical/scholarly path?" Where's your article/thesis/dissertation?

Durin Bloodaxe wrote:Restructure the combat to more closely resemble authentic combat. Safety issues? Those participating can be divvied up into classes. Not weight classes...skill classes if you will. The newbies obviously dont fight as well or the same way as a 15-20 year veteran of the various fechtbuchs (Christian Tobler, one of our moderators on Arador comes to mind). The combat the SCA promotes is little more than glorified boffers. Is it fun? Of course it is. Is it dangerous? Of course it is. At least its labled "sport" combat...but there should be a stronger emphasis on accurate and historical combat techniques...especially in an organization that is made up of fighters. You have people being exposed to as much safety risk in medieval combat as you do in the various other sporting events...hocky, football, etc and many of you participate in those activities...so I dont see why rougher more realistic combat cannot be realized in the SCA.

Durin, where in the governing documents of the SCA does it say that we are trying to simulate historically accurate combat? I am being just a little sarcastic on this point (but only a very little) because I have read and re-read those documents more times than I can count over the past year with that question in mind. The point or purpose of SCA combat is never delineated; it falls under the broad heading of recreating aspects of the Middle Ages. For my part I believe that SCA combat exists to allow participants to demonstrate chivalric behavior in a martial environment. When you look at it from this point of view, we're still lacking, but things make a little more sense.

As for applying aspects of more realistic combat that is being discussed and, in some cases, implemented. The basic problem is that the SCA is not structured for this type of activity. Our combat system is safe enough for Joe Mundane to walk in off the street, throw on the loaner armor, get ten minutes of instruction and start playing. To implement many (most) of the aspects of combat depicted in the historical documents (which documents display activities that are later than the SCA's chosen armor standard) would require:
1) A training system that ensure participants fully understand the techniques they are using and the dangers inherent in using them incorrectly.
2) Educating all fighters to remove the 'clear-winner' mindset common to all inhabitants of the modern world. Many of the dangerous techniques are safer when the participants are trying to demonstrate skill, not achieve a victory.
3) Both 1 and 2 would require that the SCA create a system for tracking the status of trainees, a common syllabus, and a network of educated officials. Basically our current Marshallate setup multiplied by a factor of 3 in just about every area.

Finally, despite all of our shortcomings, the SCA does get a lot right. My study of the I.33 sword and buckler manual has been punctuated by moments of ephiphany as I suddenly recognize in the illustrations a technique I was taught in the SCA. I showed a pole-axe grapple to a fighter who responded by showing me the same technique as he had learned it from his Knight. I'm not going to argue that the SCA is perfect or that there isn't room for change. But we're doing a fair job and folks are working to make it better.

Durin Bloodaxe wrote:I must also add that the Armour Archive is most definitely pro-SCA, and is mostly an SCA hangout....I dont have any issues with that, but I'd like to remind some of you folks that there is more to learning about arms and armour than playing fighter in the SCA. Check out some other sites for decent info as well. Arador would be a good place to start on a more historical/scholarly path of knowledge should anyone actually find that type of path interesting.

Well, apparently you do have issues with that, not that it bothers me.

From Arador's Forum Guidlines:
"No spamming or advertisements. Any post in which the primary aim is to redirect others towards another website not directly relevant to the conversation, in particular if it is a commercial site owned by or affiliated with the person posting it, is considered spam or advertising. If you have worthwhile information to share, please include it in your post if at all possible. Otherwise, this type of post does not contribute to worthwhile discussion on the Forums. If you wish to advertise on Arador, please see our Preferred Business Program."

Perhaps, to be consistent (and not be considered hypocritical), you should conduct yourself in the same way that is required on the website that your are promoting here.

(I like the new Arador format, btw, I found the old one with a stream of topics awkward and unwieldy)

Durin Bloodaxe wrote:
Duke Logan,

what research do you expect me to do? travel to each kingdom and barony and keep a journal of my findings before I can post about the subject? Nonsense. And I say again, I didnt say the SCA sucks....it has its place...I just think it could stand some major improvements. You say its not a LH group..I know this..you say its not a fantasy group, I know this, you said its not a re-enactment group, I know this as well, and you say its not a historical authority...so what pray tell *IS* it in your own words ( I know I can go to the homepage and read their charter).

you either over looked the point or somehow missed it. you simply can not paint an entire organization that spans many countries all over the world with your narrow little brush. you met one local group and didnt mesh with the few people there. then you make claims about the sca as a whole. that is nonsensical and irresponsible. you also can not put yourself in the lofty position of suggesting that it needs some major improvements when you have no idea what you are talking about. that is also nonsense.

i can, and have, commented on areas i think the sca can and should improve. but ive done this of over 12 years, have met thousands of people in the organization, have held offices on every level, have written laws and served on councils. i have earned the right to have an opinion. you have not. but you didnt ask any question before demanding that the sca needs improvement. that would have, at least, shown some research. some effort. not enough to give you any real idea of what the sca is about though. but a start nonetheless.

I still stand by what I said, and until I witness or am shown something to the contrary, I'm still going to have a biased negative opinion of the organization, just as you and many others will continue to have a biased negative opinion of me.

again, you have no basis for your bias. if your bias is towards the local canton of blah blah blah then that is fine. you had a negative experience there. many on this board have had a negative experience reading your very own words. so they are entitled to have that bias towards you. its really simple and i hope that you get it now.

I must also add that the Armour Archive is most definitely pro-SCA, and is mostly an SCA hangout....I dont have any issues with that, but I'd like to remind some of you folks that there is more to learning about arms and armour than playing fighter in the SCA. Check out some other sites for decent info as well. Arador would be a good place to start on a more historical/scholarly path of knowledge should anyone actually find that type of path interesting.

easy cheetah. i read through your site and i wouldnt blow that horn too loud. it might draw attention. i see no research listed on your site nor did i find anything that would lead me to your scholarly pursuits. i found plenty of ways to hire you guys for stage fighting. but that doesnt teach me much about anything does it?

regards
logan

Durin Bloodaxe wrote:After my 1st post to this thread, I knew precisely what kind of responses I'd get...and I was right. A couple of you flew off the handle...why? Because you percieve me as an outsider dogging on your beloved group. Fine..I can understand why you'd act like that...its a conditioned response...human nature...we get defensive when someone picks on us or what we hold dear.

You might want to work on that then. I have written several posts here only to go back and change them, or delete them entirely, when I realized that my words could be offensive or fail to convey my real meaning. If you know you are about to generate a hostile reaction rather than a meaningful discussion you might look for a better way to express yourself.

...all i saw were cliques and elitist groups unwilling to learn about the realities of medieval combat, culture, and what have you.

Local SCA groups cover the entire spectrum from introverted to extroverted, scholarly to ignorant, et cetera. Sometimes a single group can seem to be that diverse depending upon who you talk to. You may find that if you come in as a new person and try to tell people "the realities of medieval combat, culture, and what have you" it will be hard to make friends. There is more "reality" to medieval combat than that which is contained in the fechtbuchs and no one has all of the answers. Our combat rules in particular are probably better suited to simulate lightly armoured combatants that the fully armoured knights of the 15th and 16th century.

I would personally like to see less focus on who's who within the organization, and the personal achievements of various fighters, and more focus on educationg people properly about the cultures and places the SCA strives to mimic.

Then please join the SCA and work toward that goal. The strength and weakness of the SCA is that each member can learn as much or as little, teach as much or as little, and train as much or as little as they choose. If your interest is in historical cultures and places then pursue it and teach it, alongside the hundreds of others who share those interests. Some whose primary interest may be court dancing or woodworking will come and attend your classes and be enriched. You may learn a thing or two attending the classes they offer. Or you can sit with your buddies and drink beer and talk about how hot Lady XYZ looks in her fitted Norman bliaut. Lots of choices and very few rules.

My sole issue with the SCA is that for the most part, they do nothing to stem the tide of myth and misconception surrounding the middle ages...and in most cases, feed it. The SCA is like one giant "Conquest" episode on History Channel.

There are probably SCA members who love to watch those episodes in order to learn about history, and others who love to watch just to catch the mistakes. "The SCA" does nothing to stem the tide for the most part because "the SCA" does little more than buy liability insurance. PEOPLE in the SCA do a fantastic amount of study and teaching on almost every concievable aspect of medieval life, but they do it as individuals and no one is compelled to learn. Could the SCA do a better job of disseminating good research and eliminating errors from "official" publications? Of course it could, but such editorial review is never going to be the strong point of an all-volunteer organization.

Your "in most cases" comment is just flame bait. After 22 years in the organization I'm more convinced than ever that I don't know enough about what happens in other kingdoms and even other groups in my kingdom to generalize what happens "in most cases". If most SCA members are ignorant but the organization brings me into contact with a few that I can learn from, then I am well served. Unlike LH, the SCA is not designed for public performances. Sorting information from mis-information is the responsibility of the individual, not the organization.

The standards of combat are quite lame in my opinion..I understand they are the way they are for safety reasons..is that correct? I fail to see an issue with grapples, shield bashing, and many of the other tactics that are frowned upon or outright illegal. Kicking a guy in the groin should be illegal, yes, its a low blow, not very chivalric or honorable, but it is effective.

The phrase "quite lame in my opinion" is again flame bait. It would also be a good description of any fighter who played by the rules you propose. Shields have too much mass to safely bash people at full speed. Do you really want some 300+ pound bruiser with a 20lb shield strapped to his forearm to punch you with it? No thank you! How long do you think your neck will hold up to tripping and takedowns with a 7-12 pound helm strapped on? And if you are volunteering to be kicked in the groin, just let me be clear that I am NOT.

There are some adjustments that I would like to see in SCA combat rules, but those changes are based on long experience with those rules and long study of historical combat and wound forensics. Leg wounds are one example. To call the combat lame without gaining some experience first is just...lame.

I say both fighters keep going until one is obviously bested (knocked down with his adversaries "blade" at his throat or other vital for example) or yields due to exhaustion, or realization he *will* be bested by a superior fighter. Thats just my personal opinion. I fully expect many of you to feel different.

Then you may want to find a group that fights that way. Meanwhile, if you want to try SCA combat you are welcome to do so. I believe that through most of the medieval period most of the fighters on the battlefield could be killed or disabled with one-handed sword strikes or thrusts, so I feel no need to knock down or exhaust my opponents. Probably 75% of my "kills" come from face strikes or thrusts which I think anyone would agree would disable an opponent wearing an open-faced helm as specified in our blowcalling conventions.

Hold real demos where you illustrate combat techniques of various groups in history.

The general public is not quite so interested in specific combat techniques. SCA members who known them do teach classes on these techniques, both in and out of the SCA. For most of medieval history we have no documented technique. Our public demos of armoured combat are enjoyable and teach a few simple things: people can move quickly in armour, people in armour can get hit hard and not get hurt, swords move much faster in real life than they do in the movies. We don't claim to be teaching historical technique in such settings.

Hold demos where the proper names and usage of various equipment (military and otherwise) are explained.

Been there, done that.

Many SCAdians know as much about weapons and armour as their D&D Players Handbooks could tell them. Is that so of all members? No. Of course not. Again we generalize.

Why do you generalize? Why not specialize instead? I have been part of many good demos where each person talks about the things they know, and people demonstrate the things they can do. The fighter who learned his armour terminology from Ffoulkes via Gygax may give an excellent demonstration of hand-and-a-half sword vs sword and shield. We don't all need to learn everything in order to put on a good demo, we just need to know the things that interest each of us and be willing to talk about those things. If the demo doesn't include the things that YOU think are important, then you should volunteer to demonstrate those things!

Hold craft demos of historic woodworking, leatherworking, armouring, weaving, etc etc. You claim you're such a huge organization, so I dont see a problem logistically or a lack of talent.

I see no problem. Why aren't you attending the demos, offered in private homes and workshops, several days per week, in most cities and many small towns across the country? Between the SCA classes at events, guild meetings, craft nights, and open shop days I think we have this one pretty well covered. Are you waiting for a personal invitation? It's a long drive to Texas but let me know when you are coming and I'll see what I can do.

Restructure the combat to more closely resemble authentic combat. Safety issues? Those participating can be divvied up into classes. Not weight classes...skill classes if you will. The newbies obviously dont fight as well or the same way as a 15-20 year veteran of the various fechtbuchs (Christian Tobler, one of our moderators on Arador comes to mind). The combat the SCA promotes is little more than glorified boffers. Is it fun? Of course it is.

"glorified boffers"=flame bait again. Whether the techniques are all documented or not, it takes an incredible amount of skill to compete in SCA combat. I know of no one who can succeed in SCA tournaments withou many years of practice. Some bring in skills from other combat sports and become effective much more quickly, but no one wins without training. The force level and skill level required make the difference between SCA combat and "glorified boffers, but I suspect you knew that and just wanted to annoy people. If you didn't know that, you really should learn more before posting.

Is it dangerous? Of course it is. At least its labled "sport" combat...but there should be a stronger emphasis on accurate and historical combat techniques...especially in an organization that is made up of fighters. You have people being exposed to as much safety risk in medieval combat as you do in the various other sporting events...hocky, football, etc and many of you participate in those activities...so I dont see why rougher more realistic combat cannot be realized in the SCA.

SCA combat is what the members want it to be. Hocky, football, etc all have many more injuries and fatalities per year than SCA combat. Your failure to realize why many of our rules are in place is more a matter of your inexperience than any problem with the rules. How many fatalities per year do you find acceptable? Because we are a very large organization with minimal requirements for participation it is a very good thing that we have stringent safety rules. There are many interesting historical techniques that I can do in my back yard with trusted friends or in an advanced WMA class that should never be allowed on the SCA field.

What else.....theres entirely too much political nonsense going on...its taken too seriously. The leaders of the SCA are there based on what? Their ability to fight..thats whats been stated and not really refuted so far in this thread. What do they actually *do*?

In the SCA we choose who gets to play the role of King and Queen through a tournament. Whether this always gets us the best leaders is not the point. Amazingly often we get really inspirational leadership this way, sometimes not, and some reigns we just endure. We may well learn more about medieval crown-subject relationships from the bad reigns than the good ones.

I couldn't begin to describe the amount of work it takes to serve as an SCA King or Queen. Countless hours in meetings resolving problems, selecting candidates for awards and honors, traveling to more events than any sane person would attend so that they can give "royal attention" to each local group. Typically it costs the "winners" hundreds or thousands of dollars in travel and phone expenses and leaves them drained of all energy for family or other social activities for about 9 months. It is so stressful that many former royalty become inactive for a while or drop out entirely. Some relationships are not strong enough to survive it.

Too much politics? Certainly! But recognizing individual accomplishment is one of the things the SCA does better than many medievalish organizations. When groups of people get involved in the decision of whom to recognize the process may get messy but the results tend to be better than when a Monarch makes unilateral decisions.

Living History groups may not be as large as the SCA, but as has been stated, quantity is not as good as or better than quality. The SCA has a huge advantage over LH groups to educate the masses, yet it chooses for the most part to NOT do so..or at least to do so accurately and effectivly.

The SCA is geared not to educate the masses, but to provide a rewarding environment for members to educate themselves. Or not, as they choose. I think that if you really understood this point the rest of your rant would just fade away. The SCA does not "choose" to do much of anything...individuals choose to do whatever they wish within the SCA.

What percentage of fighters actually know a lot about the armour theyre wearing? I dont mean how to make it either....do they know why its used? Do they know who started using it? How and why it developed? I dont imagine many do. The personas SCA members adopt...how many actually know a great deal about the place and culture their persona is derived from? How many really care?

The number that know these things is roughly equal to the number that care. The number that do not know is irrelevant. When I contend at arms against an opponent I care most about his skill and then about his appearance. Whether he knows what to call his helm is not as important at that moment as whether I can manage to hit it. If YOU care a great deal about a particular culture or personna the odds are excellent that you can find several others who share that interest. While you are meeting them you may also meet people who share your interest in armour but prefer to play as early Danes, or late Italians, or even heathen Anglo-Saxons. And some who know little of any history but have learned to brew excellent mead or to create patterns and sew clothing in a wide variety of historic styles. You will find some people who you just plain like to hang around with despite their Mongol tendencies, and others who match up perfectly with your interests and personna but you just cannot stand them. The big tent approach has weaknesses, but it also has many strengths.

...All i ask for is more thought and feeling in the organization, more desire to educate people on the truths of the middle ages, not the Hollywoodesque fabric of chivalry and romance that I have observed.

Sounds like you want the 30,000+ member organization to change to match your preferences. Instead I suggest you dive in and find the folks who share your interests, and then enjoy pursuing them together.

Maelgwyn, you always impress me with the (in my mind) rightness of your responses. I've got to get down your way and hang out with you more often...

Jean Paul

Maelgwyn,

Well spoken and very thoughtful. The only thing I can add is what I've said before.

The LH and Reenactment groups are arguably more "authentic" than the SCA. They set out to capture a snapshot point in time and reproduce it as authentically as they possibly can. Excellent. I know exactly who to talk to when I want to find out about how that center grip roundshield I want to make was actually made.

The SCA seeks to paint with broader strokes a much larger tapestry of time and place, and as my wife put it, is more about the feeling and the emotion than about the physical reality. Also excellent. If you want to find out what it feels like to be in the middle of a REAL battle, I challenge you to go to Pennsic, or Gulf Wars, or Lillies. A shark cage could probably be arranged so you could sit in safety in the middle of the field. Just close your eyes and listen. I'm not talking about what it looks like, I'm talking about what it FEELS like. It's terrifying and exhilirating and it makes your blood boil with fear and heroic bravery all at the same time. It's not a feeling that I personally can get in the middle of a reenactment when my fate has been preordained by rule.

At the end of the day, both groups do something valuable and laudable and we should be thinking more about how we can help each other grow as people and what we can learn and teach to and from the others rather than gnawing the bones of our own rightness.

As my grandfather would have said, "Nothing can be sliced so thinly as to only have one side."

But then again maybe I'm wrong.

Geoffroi de Charney says this:

"Do not remonstrate with fools, for you will be wasting your time, and they will hate you for it. Remonstrate instead with the wise, who will love you the more for it."

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

Oh, isnt that just precious....what was that all about? Despite my best efforts to the contrary, most of you posting here attempt to make every view different than yours into a pissing contest. Its ludicrous.

Broadway, seriously, what was that all about? Because you're the head honcho you feel the need to belittle another site thats competitive with your own? That's certainly professional. Have you even visited Arador lately? Have you taken a look at the layout? Have you seen the forums, and the types of people we get in them? We certainly dont get the same volume of traffic the Archive does, but we've already noticed that quantity isnt better than quality.... Sorry..shameless plug there...forgive me.

The Archive has many great features, dont get me wrong. However, based on the content of both sites and the types of people that post on them, I think its safe to say Arador is the more historical/authentic/scholarly of the two, and if you disagree, then please tell me why, I'm curious.

Or to put it another way -

Don't wrestle with a pig in mud - you just get dirty, and somewhere along the way, the pig gets off on it....


WMW

Broadway, seriously, what was that all about?

You said Arador was more scholarly, and I said "bullshit"

Because you're the head honcho you feel the need to belittle another site thats competitive with your own?

Arador's a great place. I like it... I read the forums about once a week. Vistars good people. I didn't belittle... I just said bullshit when you said it was more scholarly. Nothing more, nothing less.

Have you taken a look at the layout?

Yep. Looks nice.

Have you seen the forums, and the types of people we get in them?

Yep. Good stuff. Good people. Like em bunches.

We certainly dont get the same volume of traffic the Archive does, but we've already noticed that quantity isnt better than quality....

I don't believe that the quality is any different.

Sorry..shameless plug there...forgive me.

No worries.

If Arador is so much more historical/authentic/scholarly... why are you posting here?

That question is meant more for you... to evaluate your own actions... I could give a shit less why you're posting here... so no real need to answer.

Its not a pissing match. Arador, the Archive, Swordforum, Netsword, etc... they all have their good and bad points, and people read/post, whatever whichever ones they like... why they choose one over the other, who knows...

I don't really care...

Why do people choose their friends/boards/wives like they do?

They may have found one more than another.
I can't remember which I found first, Arador (probably) or the AA, but the AA was easier to work with.

I'd look up something.
.......Then I'd look for something different.
..................Another thought would occur to me.
...........................There I'd go again.

Boards are not a zero-sum gain, just because one board is found by someone, doesn't mean that the other one loses.

Durin Bloodaxe wrote:Because you're the head honcho you feel the need to belittle another site thats competitive with your own?

That's certainly professional.

Sorry..shameless plug there...forgive me.

He isn't the head honcho, he started this, but JT owns the computer it is on, so he is the one we send tribute to.

Hey, kettle!

No, I don't feel like forgiving you. There isn't any need, I just have a question I would like you to answer. If I went on Arador, and started posting about how the AA was better, had better quality questions, answers, sliced bread, and made 'shameless plugs' what would happen? From the guidelines I quoted, it seems to be against the rules.

I've only recently gone back to Arador, so I had to reregister, and think the format is much better, and more user friendly. But in my brief time back, I've noticed something.

You, an assistant moderator, have come onto a board you consider to be a rival (it's not a competitor, JT isn't going to lose money if someone goes to Arador), and criticize the AA, and the SCA. I found another moderator criticizing the SCA over on Arador. ("Well, dont observe something you see in the SCA as authentic...any organization that allows fighters to wear plastic armour, or armour made out of old carpet should be a suspect place to look for authentic/historical info on *any* equipment.") Is it just the two moderators I've noticed, or is this standard? I would call it "pooping in one's messkit", it will gain you friends only among those who are proud only of the fact that they aren't SCA, and it will drive away people from the largest group of users of the forum.

BTW, I don't think you have to worry about JT censoring you for criticizing the forum, he's very much a 'marketplace of ideas' kind of guy. Unless you post links to porn (Without warning people, certainly. I don't know about links with warnings.) he isn't likely to do anything. He would probably encourage you to keep vulgarity to a minimum.

The moderator youre speaking of is in fact me, as you should have noted by the name (real names by the way, we dont post on condition of anonyminity like many on the AA) in the post, and the name in the signature of my posts here.

I'm done with this thread...all of you SCAdians have already made it obvious your feelings and opinions are set in stone concerning this website and the SCA organization. I didnt come here intending to convert anyone...I simply added my comments to the original topic Abaddon started, and granted they were based on limited interaction and experience with the SCA, but everything was blown out of proportion and the flames started on all sides to some degree. Were my comments hasty and in some cases unsupported? Perhaps, but you cant sit at your keyboard and tell me everyone else conducted themselves with the utmost professionalism.

This site is most definitely beyond a shadow of a doubt pro SCA, so naturally the majority of the posters will flock to defend their group. Good for you...at least your convictions if not your knowledge and open mindedness is strong. I asked serious questions to help dispel the myths I perceived about the SCA, I was willing to listen to more informed and learned people than myself about the SCA (some of you I have mailed privately, and I thank you for the answers you gave) and its positives. I still feel its not the group for me at this time. I am more interested in the historical points of the dark & middle ages than I am in sport combat or the intracacies of court.

I still think both Arador and the Archive have their place, and its good there are 2 forums where the various types of "medievalists" can go to do their thing. The comment about the SCA being great because people can learn as much or as little as they want certainly does have merit, I just personally feel people should take a more proactive interest rather than a passive one.

I'm sorry a lot of you feel I'm an idiot, or a schmuck, or an ass, or whatever it is youve labled me as, but as has been said by many of you already, it doesnt really matter does it, because the Archive, the SCA, and Arador will all continue on regardless of whats contained in a post or what someones opinion is.

Should anyone be in the Lakes Region of New Hampshire, or even the Nashua/Manchester area, I would still like to hook up with SCA (or just anyone who's interested really, SCA or otherwise) folks who would be interested in combat (I prefer more realistic rebated steel, but rattan or wasters is better than nothing I suppose) or discussing arms, armour, the Viking Age (my main area of interest and specialty). I'd also be open to veteran SCAdians showing me the good things the group has to offer. I *want* to be shown things that will trash the notions I have.

Greetings Durin,

I'm sorry you don't feel like the SCA is for you, or feel welcome in it. I know I've learned alot since joining the SCA, although I still have a whole lot to learn.

I'm grateful that I'm a part of an organization that gives me the opportunity to learn while participating. My garb isn't completely period and neither is my armor. I'm working on getting better, but I have a long way to go.

I've been fortunate enough to have alot of teachers within the SCA that have helped me with my fighting skills as well as armoring and yes... history.

What I like most about the SCA is that I can be a part of it while learning. No one expects me as a newcomer to walk on the field in completely period armor or garb. As time has gone by my armor and garb have improved and will improve further. I'm sorry that this aspect of the SCA so offends you. I'm sure that if I would have been born with the knowledge of what is period and what isn't my initial armor and garb would have been much better.

There have been alot of negative posts in this thread about the SCA. While I'm sure no organization is perfect and that there is always room for improvement, all I can say is that I love the SCA and I'm glad I found it. I'm truely sorry that you can't see it the way that I do.

And so you don't feel like I'm hiding behind a screen name...

Living my dream,

Agnes Moray
Gleann Abhann

Crystal Monaghan
Lafayette, LA.

Durin Bloodaxe wrote:The moderator youre speaking of is in fact me, as you should have noted by the name (real names by the way, we dont post on condition of anonyminity like many on the AA) in the post, and the name in the signature of my posts here.

You're right, I didn't pay that much attention to the names.

There is no condition of anonymity here. You can use any name you want, no one is going to say anything whether you use your name, a personna name, the name of a famous politician or porn star. This is the internet, I don't know if David Womble is your real name, or whether you are really the British Prime Minister. The reason we often use some name other than our birth names is because it might be the name we are most likely to meet each other by.

I would like to note that you did not answer my questions.

surprised? he didnt answer my questions either.

regards
logan

Alcyoneus wrote:

Durin Bloodaxe wrote:The moderator youre speaking of is in fact me, as you should have noted by the name (real names by the way, we dont post on condition of anonyminity like many on the AA) in the post, and the name in the signature of my posts here.

You're right, I didn't pay that much attention to the names.

There is no condition of anonymity here. You can use any name you want, no one is going to say anything whether you use your name, a personna name, the name of a famous politician or porn star. This is the internet, I don't know if David Womble is your real name, or whether you are really the British Prime Minister. The reason we often use some name other than our birth names is because it might be the name we are most likely to meet each other by.

I would like to note that you did not answer my questions.

There seems to be some sport among non-SCA members to take shots at the SCA for this and that. Durin made broad generalizations which are, in my experience, untrue. I can make broad generalizations, but I qualify it with "in my experience". I understand that they may be wrong and try to convey to others that they might be incorrect. Durin didn't even try. I suspect he will still read this thread to see what people are responding to his last post. If so, he needs to understand this:

The SCA is many, many things. There are those of us within the SCA who would like to see certain changes. There are those in the SCA who want things to stay the same. However, as part of the SCA, we have to enjoy the SCA itself, otherwise we would not play. With all the different aspects of medieval life, you have chosen to bash the one area we don't even PRETEND is accurate. Your assertion, as quoted by Alcyoneus, is proof that you have a very poor regard for the SCA in general. It also shows me that it didn't really matter if you had a bad experience or not, you don't like the SCA. That's fine. But you took a giant dump in our game. We know it has flaws, but insults (whether they were intended as such or not) do no good. When those insults were pointed out, all you said was "see, I knew I was going to get flamed. Poor pitiful me, the SCA is picking on me again". Dude, grow up!

The SCA is what you make of it. I bitch about the SCA as much as anyone (more than many ). But I see its warts from the inside, and I'm trying to help change them. Your bitching does nothing except say that you're better than us, and that none of the SCA folks really care about scholarly pursuits. Like I said before, grow up!

Bran

mattmaus wrote:

brewer wrote: It's my experience that, in many cases, that any education takes place at all is entirely incidental.

I uh.... I'm not trying to flame you. Really I'm not.

But you're wrong.

Because of the SCA and my participation in it I have learned:

(snip)

I'm not trying to flame you either, but if you had actually read up the thread, you'd have known we were discussing SCA demos -- i.e., the shows some SCA groups put on for outside people -- not what the SCA teaches its participants.

Not to belabor this, but Mr Bloodaxe has the typical anti-SCA ignorance. Either he's had a brief and bad experience or simply basis his knowledge on the hearsay and rhetoric from other biased sources (or both). The result is that he has an us-vs-them mentality and perhaps feels a need to put the SCA down to give a self perceived credibility to his group.

Bloodaxe wrote:The goals and ideals that are supposedly represented are very shallow and weak.

And so I must ask where is the honor or humility in your posts sir? If they are there, I missed them. I would argue, that like most of the Living History zealots, you have turned me off to your group simply because you as a member have poorly represented it with your bitter diatribe. Personally, I love the SCA because we encourage each other to better ourselves about our knowledge of the past and our actions in and out of garb. If the SCA demanded it - I'd go elsewhere.

Dreffan has extended an olive branch for you to come and get educated so that you may have an informed opinion about us. I hope you possess the humility required to put aside your prejudices and glean what he's offering. If you can - I think it would be benneficial to all. If you cannot, it would be a waste of time. It is now up to you.

Sorry if this post is sharp, but it is meerly a repose to your comments.

I have e-mail many of you privately (or will shortly) concerning this entire thread. It is senseless to continue discussing it, because we've all ceased to discuss (if we indeed ever began) this, and its now like you said, a "me vs. them" mentality...thats not what i was trying to get accross in the beginning...if I came accross that way, I have no explanation, other than thats how my words came out. I did indeed have a few bad experiences with the SCA...however, as was pointed out, the individual makes the SCA, not the label of the organization....the individuals I was exposed to were not the sorts of people I wanted to be with, nor were the activities they were engaging in. At the time I had no idea how indicative of the rest of the organization these people were. I generalized on purpose in some instances because I dont know their names or what kingdoms/baronies they belong to.

I still feel many of you are biased, and the simple fact many of you came at me like a pack of rabid wolves coming accross a wounded deer speaks volumes in support of some of things I've said and felt. Those of you who mailed me privately and were willing to discuss things, thank you, I do appreciate it. There is obviously nothing further I can say at this point to redeem myself or make any of you see why I said what i said...even though many of you said so yourself there were things you didnt like and wanted to change. I just sit here wondering why many of you chose to condemn how I went about it, when by your own words you feel the same way i do to some degree.

I never attacked anyone personally, nor did I condemn any barony or kingdom....I dont know any of you personally. Hence the generalizations based on my already admittedly limited expereinces..I never said my comments were all inclusive. So there was no reason for any of you to take the tones you did. I dont recall being incredibly nasty and hateful to anyone here. I simply stated what had happened to me in past experiences with the SCA. In hindsight, I suppose I should have realized that individuals were what i should have concered myself with, not a broad pre-conceived notion of the oraganization as a whole. I do apologize for that. Maelgwens post helped with that. Thank you.

I do intend to get in touch with Muttman and those he knows locally. I am interested in learning the truth at what the SCA has to offer. I'm not saying its still going to be a group I'll wholeheartedly embrace, but I will look into it further.

brewer wrote:I'm not trying to flame you either, but if you had actually read up the thread, you'd have known we were discussing SCA demos -- i.e., the shows some SCA groups put on for outside people -- not what the SCA teaches its participants.

You are correct.

The primary purpose of any SCA demo is to recruit. The SCA demonstrates what the SCA does. The most noticable activity of the SCA is rattan sport combat. It makes more noise, it takes more space, and it's pretty impressive to watch as an outsider. If I hadn't as a wild eyed youth seen the SCA guys beating on each other with clubs, I'd have never been exposed to the things that I have learned. Where as, at the age of 16, any exposure to a LH group would have likely come with an essay to write after a feild trip.

Sweeping generalization mode on!

The overall tone of this post, and many of the 'anti-sca' (which really isn't accurate either) follow ups to it, seems to be that because the SCA doesn't preach pure historical fact at it's demos it can't possibly be an educational group.

Sweeping generalization mode off!

The SCA and the LH groups (big surprise) work differently! I would be willing to put money on the idea that Average Joe will learn a lot more about history and how things were really done at a LH demo than he would at an SCA demo. LH is more geared towards instant education. By god you're going to learn from us, and if you think it's neat and want to join up that's cool too.

The SCA wants to bait you into the club with whatever it takes to pique an interest (and lots of young guys and girls get pretty excited by rattan combat). From that point your educational path begins. WHAM BAM! Look what we can do, and theres this other stuff too.

LH is a hard sell on learning, and a soft sell on fun. The SCA is the oposite, with a soft sell on the education bit, and a hard sell on the fun side.

If they were smart pills, LH would be the 1000mg maximum strength shot in the arm. Honestly it's a little too intense for some. The SCA is 10mg pills dispersed over the course of time. A little easier to swallow, but not as effective.

Some people never buy the whole package. They show up on weekends and club each other over the spun dome helmet. A lot of them eventualy decide that they want to look better, or that a helmet with glancing surfaces might be better than the pos that they have.

Frankly, the SCA started off and has always been about a bunch of goombahs who like to wear funny clothes and have overdeveloped agression glands. At some point they figured out "hey this learnin history stuff is pretty cool!" and educating themselves becomes a secondary hobby. The SCA educates internaly.

LH groups (and I'm generalizing on my experience with members here on the archive, please DO correct me if I'm wrong) tend to be much more self educated to begin with. I would guess that the average newbie to a LH group is by far better read than the average SCA newbie. The LH newbie allready likes learning and researching and reading etc. NOW he wants to expand his mental knowledge into the physical realm. Education is allready a primary hobby and the living hostory bit becomes a secondary hobby as a means to share knowledge with others. LH educates externaly.

Sorry... I'm rambling and babbling and probably come of as argumentive (which I don't mean to).

Try to see it this way:
(an over simplidied synopsis of the last 4 pages)

"Your group sucks! My group rules."

"Our group doesn't suck, you're talking out your ass you twit."

"Hey, what are you attacking me for?"

Thats how its come across.
Does that clear it up as to why some are upset at your posts?

Anyway, I'm sure I'll see you at some near point in the future and we can show you the SCA through fresh eyes. Then if you think it sucks, you'll be able to say so in an educated manner. I have a feeling that you'll find somethings that you really like.

mattmaus wrote:
The SCA wants to bait you into the club with whatever it takes to pique an interest (and lots of young guys and girls get pretty excited by rattan combat). From that point your educational path begins. WHAM BAM! Look what we can do, and theres this other stuff too.

LH is a hard sell on learning, and a soft sell on fun. The SCA is the oposite, with a soft sell on the education bit, and a hard sell on the fun side.

If they were smart pills, LH would be the 1000mg maximum strength shot in the arm. Honestly it's a little too intense for some. The SCA is 10mg pills dispersed over the course of time. A little easier to swallow, but not as effective.

Some people never buy the whole package. They show up on weekends and club each other over the spun dome helmet. A lot of them eventualy decide that they want to look better, or that a helmet with glancing surfaces might be better than the pos that they have.

Frankly, the SCA started off and has always been about a bunch of goombahs who like to wear funny clothes and have overdeveloped agression glands. At some point they figured out "hey this learnin history stuff is pretty cool!" and educating themselves becomes a secondary hobby. The SCA educates internaly.

REALLY well put!

Very well said. I'm serious. All of us got defensive. You at least have to admit that. I am perfectly willing to be open minded about the SCA...all i said was that my experience with it to date (and I repeatedly said it was a limited experience) was unimpressive and rather negative. I know that wasnt representative of the entire organization, but the folks and events I WAS exposed to did NOT make me feel welcome, or interest me. As one of the other posters surmised, yes, that was a few years ago, and I all but gave up trying to learn more. I have mailed a few of you here over the last year or so trying to hook up with locals. I dont recall who I mailed, or how long ago, or what I said, but I either got no responses, or I got repsonses that said sure, I'd love to hook up, but then no contact info was given, or there was no follow-up on their part. I've posted both here and on Arador in the past looking for like minded people to spar with (not necessarily in an official SCA capacity). I didnt get anywhere. I believe I even posted on the Stonemarche site once I was a local guy looking to hook up, but not immediatly become affiliated with teh SCA. I didnt get any replies thru that route either.

Then, at a few Ren faires I went to in Carver Mass, Connecticut, Portsmouth NH, Rochester, NH and one at Fort Dumm in Vermont I met a few SCAdians and tried to hook up with them, and was all but snubbed. The market day event i went to in Rockingham Park in Salem, NH a few years ago was another bad experience. I also witnessed at the CT faire a SCAdian actually charging people to fight him. How do I know he was in the SCA (or at least claimed to be)? I asked him if he knew about the group, and he replied oh yes, I'm a long time member. He talked to me as if I was a red neck who knew as much about the middle ages and arms and armour as I would about being a neurosurgeon. Some of the merchants at that market day event I mentioned treated me with what was indignancy at worst, apathy at best.

Thats why I cant understand why you folks cant at the very least see where I'm coming from. I didnt ask you all to agree with or support what i said. You say the SCA isnt all like the expereinces I had. Fine, but by the same token, did it ever occur to any of you that the organization may not all be as honorable and chivalrous and open armed as some of you or your local groups may be? I've seen an awful lot of posts here on the Archive regarding stolen armour and fraud at many events. That doesnt sit well with any of you does it? I know its not really relavent to this topic, but I use it just to illustrate my point 4 lines above.

Was I crass and judgemental, looking back over the posts, yes, I guess I was. Did I generalize in the wrong places? I suppose so. I'm only human. I dont want to point fingers anymore and say I was right you are wrong..that wasnt the intention originally. I didnt come here with the motive of "Hey, look at all these schmucks, I'm gonna start some shit with these goombahs, and promote my ideals and the website I frequent." If you think that, I dont know what to say. After the 1st run of replies, yes I got annoyed and defensive and the tone got progressively more negative...many of you are just as guilty however. But thats besides the point.

I just want to start fresh...I have tried to set things right with many of you via e-mail, and take what i said however you want. I just dont know how I can prove to you folks I'm not as bad or ignorant as you think i am. I've spent a long time learning about arms and armour, and the viking age in particular, and my being asked to be a moderator at Arador was an awesome thing for me that emant a lot. I came from an RPG/LARP background and I spouted off even more nonsense than you could possibly imagine a few years ago when I 1st started lurking here and on Arador. I've come a long way, trust me. And I'm not so deluded as to think I dont have a much further way to go.

Incidentally, I never claimed to be part of any group. I never said Group A was better than Group B...that was something a bunch of you just assumed and tossed into the mix. I am not a member of any LH group or any sort of medieval group. I do my research and my armouring on my own time as a hobby, and hook up with other armourers and researchers when i can.

With all that being said, what can I do to start over? What do I have to say or do to make you all not want to club me like a baby seal? I've already said I'm willing to expose myself again to people and events and dismiss the pre-conceived notions I have. What else can i do?

I'm just trying to end this on a positive note, so we all dont keep adding fuel to the fire.

Durin Bloodaxe wrote:With all that being said, what can I do to start over? What do I have to say or do to make you all not want to club me like a baby seal? I've already said I'm willing to expose myself again to people and events and dismiss the pre-conceived notions I have. What else can i do?

I'm just trying to end this on a positive note, so we all dont keep adding fuel to the fire.

I still want to club you like a baby seal. Although, I could say the same for my closest friends who also enjoy donning armor and fighting with sticks.

Durin, I think you have come a long way from your first post. In that post you wanted everyone to prove to you that the SCA wasn't all the negative things that you claimed it to be. If you want to start over, I guess I could ask that you prove to us that you have an open mind, but that isn't fair either. Just like it wasn't fair to demand of the SCA to prove to you that we are good people.

The best thing that could happen now is for you to give it a try. Don't let a few negative people keep you away from a good time and possibly a learning experience. And if you find that the SCA isn't for you, then at least you gave it a try.

Take care,
Odo
aka Joe LaCroix

Damn. I was really wanting to club you like a baby seal.

I'm working on the reply to your email, but it will be later tonight probably.

Ask questions. Answer questions. Try not to be confrontational in statements of your opinion. Most of your problems are in the way you presented your opinion. You don't have to agree with me, or anyone else, on this board. If you write "I'm better than you", people will take offense.

I've been in the SCA for 20+ years, would you like a list of the assholes I've met in it? How about the great people in it? It's a longer list.

Remember, if you say something on a bulletin board that 5 people disagree with, all five may tell you why, and they may not all be the exact same reason. It is still five separate, individual disagreements, not a 'dogpile' or anything else. You expressed your opinion, each of them expressed theirs.

In short, behave here, just as you would expect someone to behave on Arador. Follow the Golden Rule, its pretty much universal.

mattmaus wrote:

brewer wrote:We were discussing SCA demos -- i.e., the shows some SCA groups put on for outside people -- not what the SCA teaches its participants.

You are correct.

The primary purpose of any SCA demo is to recruit. The SCA demonstrates what the SCA does. The most noticable activity of the SCA is rattan sport combat. It makes more noise, it takes more space, and it's pretty impressive to watch as an outsider. If I hadn't as a wild eyed youth seen the SCA guys beating on each other with clubs, I'd have never been exposed to the things that I have learned. Where as, at the age of 16, any exposure to a LH group would have likely come with an essay to write after a field trip.

True. Others had posited that some SCA demos were indeed displays of the medieval in action, a position which I did not dispute. I was disputing the position that most SCA demos were so constructed.

I am glad you found the SCA. It is a supremely fun and invigorating hobby, which I enjoy greatly. I just like to quibble the details.

mattmaus wrote:Sweeping generalization mode on!

The overall tone of this post, and many of the 'anti-sca' (which really isn't accurate either) follow ups to it, seems to be that because the SCA doesn't preach pure historical fact at it's demos it can't possibly be an educational group.

Sweeping generalization mode off!

Mode noted.

mattmaus wrote:The SCA and the LH groups (big surprise) work differently! I would be willing to put money on the idea that Average Joe will learn a lot more about history and how things were really done at a LH demo than he would at an SCA demo. LH is more geared towards instant education. By god you're going to learn from us, and if you think it's neat and want to join up that's cool too.

The SCA wants to bait you into the club with whatever it takes to pique an interest (and lots of young guys and girls get pretty excited by rattan combat). From that point your educational path begins. WHAM BAM! Look what we can do, and theres this other stuff too.

LH is a hard sell on learning, and a soft sell on fun. The SCA is the oposite, with a soft sell on the education bit, and a hard sell on the fun side.

Very well said. Different strokes for different folks, as goes the vernacular.

Enlightened LH folks readily admit that the SCA do things that LH can never hope to accomplish. The pomp and circumstance surrounding a Coronation (or just a Court), for example. The gathering of people in candlelight for an evening meal is rare in LH circles, especially of the amounts of people at even a smallish SCA event. The putting on of entertainments during those meals is never seen. The amounts and varieties of foods on the menu is seldom seen.

When I first attended an event with the C15 group with which I play (Grey's), there was general astonishment that I could write using oak gall ink and a cut goose quill on laid paper. the guys in Grey's stood round and sighed "Cool." Even the guy who is supposedly the Steward of the household! This is something I learned in the SCA, and brought with me to medieval LH.

mattmaus wrote:LH groups (and I'm generalizing on my experience with members here on the archive, please DO correct me if I'm wrong) tend to be much more self educated to begin with. I would guess that the average newbie to a LH group is by far better read than the average SCA newbie. The LH newbie allready likes learning and researching and reading etc. NOW he wants to expand his mental knowledge into the physical realm. Education is allready a primary hobby and the living hostory bit becomes a secondary hobby as a means to share knowledge with others. LH educates externaly.

AFAIK, you're right. It is a myth that LH participants spring wholly formed from the head of Zeus. Most begin slowly, if nor no other reason than the expense involved. But the vast majority of raw recruits come armed with distinct knowledge already amassed.

Like the SCA, LH groups foster the growth and expansion of that knowledge, especially if it is an area in which existing group members have little or no expertise (see the quill pen example, above). Unlike the SCA, there is an unspoken (and often spoken) expectation of having some knowledge of the period being portrayed, because our primary focus is external, and everyone should be able to answer basic questions posed by the public. At the very least, the LH newbie must know how to direct a question at a knowledgable member of the group.

Pertaining to the topic, I maintain that, at a public demo, the SCA should maintain the same standards of representation as LH, if they are purporting to be displaying facets of the Middle Ages. If it will be a recruiting demo, then that should be explicitly stated: "This is the SCA. We study the Middle Ages, but what you see here is not necessarily representative of actual medieval things." That is all I feel need be said.

You see, in most SCA demos I have observed or in which I have been involved, the SCA represented SCA activites as medieval activities, and while the SCA activities have significant worth, they are not necessarily medieval. The fellow calligraphing a "scroll" (what an offensive term) with a steel nib and Quink, even if he's using a medieval exemplar, is not representing the Middle Ages; he's representing the SCA's activity which approximates a medieval craft. See what I mean? I'm not denigrating the SCA's activities. Far from it; I practice many of them, within the SCA. I just rail against misrepresentation.

Well this thread lasted a lot longer than I had thought it would.
Lot of interesting takes on things. I know people feel stongly about things, but let's keep the blows above the waist though, shall we?
I wasn't trying to start a flame-war. Really.

Reading through the posts, a few questions sprang to mind.
If the SCA is primarily a scholarly body devoted to learning more about the middle ages, why do we not invite groups outside the SCA to do demos for us?
I do not mean that we might just appear coincidentally at the same faire that a LH group is at, both of us doing demos...I am derscribing a situation where we acknowledge that other groups may have knowledge or expertise that we may benefit from and invite them to do a demos for us exclusively. I am wondering if this is simply a function of how we possibly think of ourselves as the only experts worth learning from, or is it simply the way the local groups are structured that it is hard to get enough people together to make inviting an outside expert to give a class, demo, or lecture, worthwhile. Usually how I have seen it work in the past is that an independent group will offer a class speciallizing in this or that aspect of medieval combat, cooking, armouring...what have you, and those with sufficient interest in the area sign up for it.
Most of the time the greatest number of students are members or sometime-players in the SCA.
It seems to me that any organization as large as the SCA should have some internal apparatus for the continuing education and training of its members. Most of our scholasticism is done on our own. But for hands-on stuff, that sure is a hard way to learn. Granted, there are skills that one can only learn by doing, but it certainly helps to have an expert guide your first and most crucial steps. Otherwise it is setback after setback until the only thing that you end up learning about a craft is how much you hate it. But there are any number of people in the SCA that have done very detailed and accurate studies of their particular fields of interest or skill. I do not see why these people should be so hard for the SCA BOD to recognize.
I do not see why they could not be sent out on a "progress" of some sort where they travel from kingdom to kingdom, barony to barony to set up classes and demos at pre-planned events like a Baronial War, or Crown Tourney. They could be invited only to the larger events so that way their travel expenses and renumeration could be reimbursed out of the site-fees. This way we could get a chance to see what other Kingdoms are doing and share intellectual resources a little more.
Itinerant trainers. This is not a new concept. Many organizations have them. Why couldn't we? Money? The money is there, and with a little planning and thought you could determine where it was worthwhile to send your instructors and where it was not. I would imagine that in economic times such as these, this would be considered a great gig if it merely paid a living wage. Traveling around, meeting new people, teaching classes about a subject you love?

Again this goes back to the way the SCA is structured. Who has responsibility for training new members? Does training come from the top down? How are new members trained and what are they taught? Does the SCA support scholasticism and the continuing education of its members? Or is it simply a club where people do as they please and learn as they will, and the direction of the group is not determined by anyone?
I think that right now all standards in the SCA flow from the bottom up rather than the top down.

Abaddon wrote:Again this goes back to the way the SCA is structured. Who has responsibility for training new members? Does training come from the top down? How are new members trained and what are they taught? Does the SCA support scholasticism and the continuing education of its members? Or is it simply a club where people do as they please and learn as they will, and the direction of the group is not determined by anyone?
I think that right now all standards in the SCA flow from the bottom up rather than the top down.

I have to agree with you there. People can pick and choose what to learn, and that is really cool. However, there is no mechanism in place to encourage education. Some may say that the Order of the Laurel does, but I personally contend that the Order is an instrument of education that doesn't always get used for that. Many of the folks I know would rather have the title Sir than Master...but most of my friends are fighters, so that is part of it right there. The Laurels teach those who are interested, which is wonderful. But there is nothing to encourage them to become interested in something. I've seen to many SCAdians wandering through thier SCA life swinging a stick with no interest at all in anything with the Middle Ages. What little the learn is incidental. They may pick up a few things about armour because they have to wear something, they may pick up a bit about clothes since they can't run around naked, but on the whole they don't really learn anything about the Middle Ages.

The folks on this board aren't part of this crowd, so there is no need to cite yourself as an example that this is wrong. These folks aren't even the majority, but there is a significant number of them. This makes it neither right or wrong, but it is still there.

The SCA claims itself as an educational organization, dedicated to researching and recreating the Middle Ages. Somewhere along the way, people started adding "as it should have been" to the end. This was probably in response to no one wanting to have a plague victim persona or something equally horrible, but it has been used as an excuse by some to do whatever. We've all heard the phrase "if they'ld have had it, they'ld have used it". This thinking is wrong. Sure they would have used microwaves and radios, but they didn't. So what DID they use? That same phrase is used to justify plastic armour, spuntop helms, and other monstrousities. The "top" of the organization has done nothing to discourage this on the whole. Sir Conal in Meridies and Duke Logan in Atlantia are two examples of folks who have, but I believe we can agree that they are the minorities. These two valiant knights went in a direction that was not the popular choice, to be certain, in an effort to encourage a bit of education. Their actions were a great start, but more would be needed for us to ever really consider ourself scholarly.

I don't really know how. I don't really think that the SCA wants to change, though it will probably happen slowly. It will be folks like Sir Conal and Duke Logan who will do little things and then, when people are used to that, will do more. It will also probably be thanks to people like Murdock and Josh, who do as they say others should, and look cool in thier kits doing it. Others will follow them.

Top down or bottom up alone is probably not the answer, but instead a joint effort. I just wonder if it will ever happen.

Bran

Bran Mac Scandlan wrote:

>>>SNIP<<<
The SCA claims itself as an educational organization, dedicated to researching and recreating the Middle Ages. Somewhere along the way, people started adding "as it should have been" to the end. This was probably in response to no one wanting to have a plague victim persona or something equally horrible, but it has been used as an excuse by some to do whatever.

>>>SNIP<<<
Bran

(Emphasis mine.)

The phrase: "as it should have been" has been associated with Scadia since we first bumped into its minions in '69 or '70. It was originally from a critique of T.H. White's The Once and Future King; that great amalgam of Arthurian, romantic and Victorian/early 20th century medievalist traditions. I suspect that this was not coincidental, and if you asked most of the early members of the SCA about it, they would note the book, and its outlook (not to mention its resulting popular literary and dramatic offspring which became a major influence in the culture of the ‘60s) were factors in their own view of the middle ages and their personal and organizational goals.

On the other claw, I could be wrong; just some observations based on 35 years in this racket.

If the SCA is primarily a scholarly body devoted to learning more about the middle ages, why do we not invite groups outside the SCA to do demos for us?

That's an excellent idea, Abaddon. I've been thinking that it would be a good idea to do a similar thing, if I can ever get an East Kingdom Academy of the Rapier into this neck of the woods--Bringing in some non-SCA experts on the rapier would have a great effect, methinks, on the local rapier community. For A&S activities this sort of influx would be excellent, and would also show other groups that the SCA has members who are interested in their activities too.

But there are any number of people in the SCA that have done very detailed and accurate studies of their particular fields of interest or skill. . . . I do not see why they could not be sent out on a "progress" of some sort where they travel from kingdom to kingdom, barony to barony to set up classes and demos at pre-planned events like a Baronial War, or Crown Tourney. . . . Why couldn't we? Money? The money is there, and with a little planning and thought you could determine where it was worthwhile to send your instructors and where it was not.

I don't think, however, that this is possible. The reason being: The money really isn't there, or at least it isn't in the BoD's hands. The BoD only buys insurance, sends out membership cards, and determines Society laws. Kingdoms and smaller, local groups do everything else. Most the money actually goes through these smaller groups hands, without ever being seen by BoD.

In other words, a Kingdom or a local group could ask a teacher to come in, and could pay them or take care of their transport, but there is not central body that could send experts around to teach. Even Tournaments Illuminated is a separate body. And SCAdians complain enough about the non-member surcharge and the cost for SCA membership, I doubt you'd convince someone who doesn't do A&S to pay an extra 25 cents per year to get some teachers to come out to events that he'd have to pay to go to anyway (as worthy as the idea might be).

Another thing you mentioned: Is the SCA teaching top-down or bottom-up? Well, it might not seem like it's bottom-up, but it really is: What interests the student is what teachers will teach them. If you're not interested, you don't learn. We might wish to bemoan this, but frankly the truth is that you'll turn some off people from the SCA if you tell them that you'd like to teach them about history. They start calling you a period maven for such behavior, and we all have only so much time to devote to teaching anyway--This is, after all, a hobby. Why spend time trying to convince a reluctant student that they should learn from you, when you can teach the very eager students who want to know all that you know, and who always have more questions to ask?

Your ideas are thoughtful and very well-meant, and I think the first one is very do-able. Frankly I wonder why SCAdians haven't done it yet! But we don't need to change the SCAdian system of teaching to a bottom-up system, because it already is--The student finds the teacher.


Best,

Domenico

brewer wrote:True. <wicked application of edditing implements that go snicker snack>tation.

(content removed for the sake of not reading pages of redundant text)

I am pleased with this exchange. Thank you for your time in discussing this with me.