The Armour Archive

[quote="Alcyoneus]
The other guy ALWAYS takes harder shots.
[/quote]

Congratulations, the SCA apparently is the inverse of the rest of the world.
There was actually a scientific study to prove that "the other guy always hits harder" as in playground fights, etc. They set pairs of people up with little levers across each other's thumbs. They instructed each privately to let the other press on their thumb, and then press back with the same amount of force. Neither participant knew the other's instructions. The levers had pressure gauges which only the scientists could read, and the people always escalated the pressure until they had to quit. Both people in every pair thought that the other had been instructed to press harder.
So while most people think the other guy hit them harder, we think we hit them harder.
Now I'm tempted to try and test this theory, but instead of levers and thumbs, do it at practice. "You hit him, then let him hit you..."
Maybe two trials, one with unbelts and one with knights.

yeah, the flash gordon babe is pretty hot too. Both of them are invited to eat crackers in my bed at any point in the future. Hell, Bring Adrienne Barbeau in for the 80's trifecta!

Thank YOU! Adam.

That retrocrush site is interesting, but WTF is "retro" about Kirsten Dunst?

Not to put too fine a point on things but...We all hit too hard at times. It's a result of several factors. Usually when we are excited, we tend to hit harder. If we have issues with the opponent we have drawn we tend to hit harder. If we have decided for some reason that we simply will not lose to so-and-so, we hit harder (I have seen this a lot, don't even try to deny that it happens).
So we are all guilty of doing it at some times. As for altering weapons so that they hit harder or fly faster...drilling out your rattan will not get you the desired result of hit harder. Sand bags? Never heard of that one. Lead weights in swords...seen them in handles but never in points. Seems to me that it retards the weapon, not augments it.
As for the old vaccuum and glue story...yeah...it works. But the sword is REALLY heavy. It throws like a pig and hits like a truck...it also f*x up your wrist. In the old days we used to do mace heads with toilet paper, linoleum and metal epoxy in the heads. We also did mace heads that were just rubber mallet heads. Again, they hit like a train, but flew like a rock.
There have been other such less than successful innovations. The old elmer's glue and pantyhose re-inforced swords lasted longer but they were much heavier and took forever to make. Other arcane things like fiberglass resin and epoxy were tried, but no joy. They all made for heavy swords that tired out the fighter and were no fun to use.
These days, I use just plain old rattan with two layers of strapping tape over it and then duct tape. There is some strength from the tape and that's all I really need. I blow through a sword about every six months. To me it comes down to a matter of "If you want to hit harder, practice throwing shots faster. Speed equals power. But if you want to fight well, work on shot placement."
I hear "the other guys hit harder" all the time. It all bollocks. There are harder hitting groups/kingdoms, but not to the degree IMHO that folks seem to think. I usually catch myself saying that when I have lost a sloppy or unsatisfying fight and I am looking to blame anything but my own performance for losing...yeah, I do it too.
I just try not to make it a habit. Face facts, we are all human and we all hate to lose. but we have to accept that someone had to win the fight...this time was thier turn...next time is ours.

Baron Hamish

Morgan wrote:That retrocrush site is interesting, but WTF is "retro" about Kirsten Dunst?

Not only that, but where was PJ Soles? I declare that site to be invalid without PJ Soles!

Too many years ago, in a far away and different time a fellow named Cameron (in Caid) hollowed his rattan, [when it wasn't specifically against the rules and when rattan tree trunks were all the rage] and added a portion of lead shot. He preferred striking with the upper end of his sword

He was discovered by accident.. during an attempted attack the tape plug in the tip fell apart and the gallery was showerd by shot... oops!

After much discussion it was determined that he didn't violate the Rule, but had to replace his weapon in order to continue and pending Rulings would not be allowed to employ said weapon enhancement system

Cameron, in later years, has lamented that he should have drilled a hole through the pommel end and not the tip

Hibernicus
LEG IX HSPA

DWolfhunter wrote:Not to put too fine a point on things but...We all hit too hard at times. It's a result of several factors. Usually when we are excited, we tend to hit harder. If we have issues with the opponent we have drawn we tend to hit harder. If we have decided for some reason that we simply will not lose to so-and-so, we hit harder (I have seen this a lot, don't even try to deny that it happens).
So we are all guilty of doing it at some times. As for altering weapons so that they hit harder or fly faster...drilling out your rattan will not get you the desired result of hit harder. Sand bags? Never heard of that one. Lead weights in swords...seen them in handles but never in points. Seems to me that it retards the weapon, not augments it.
As for the old vaccuum and glue story...yeah...it works. But the sword is REALLY heavy. It throws like a pig and hits like a truck...it also f*x up your wrist. In the old days we used to do mace heads with toilet paper, linoleum and metal epoxy in the heads. We also did mace heads that were just rubber mallet heads. Again, they hit like a train, but flew like a rock.
There have been other such less than successful innovations. The old elmer's glue and pantyhose re-inforced swords lasted longer but they were much heavier and took forever to make. Other arcane things like fiberglass resin and epoxy were tried, but no joy. They all made for heavy swords that tired out the fighter and were no fun to use.
These days, I use just plain old rattan with two layers of strapping tape over it and then duct tape. There is some strength from the tape and that's all I really need. I blow through a sword about every six months. To me it comes down to a matter of "If you want to hit harder, practice throwing shots faster. Speed equals power. But if you want to fight well, work on shot placement."
I hear "the other guys hit harder" all the time. It all bollocks. There are harder hitting groups/kingdoms, but not to the degree IMHO that folks seem to think. I usually catch myself saying that when I have lost a sloppy or unsatisfying fight and I am looking to blame anything but my own performance for losing...yeah, I do it too.
I just try not to make it a habit. Face facts, we are all human and we all hate to lose. but we have to accept that someone had to win the fight...this time was thier turn...next time is ours.

Baron Hamish

Feel free to ignore this, but here's an interesting little question: Does the SCA hit too hard in general?

There are two force components in any strike with the edge of a sword: force perpindicular to the target, and force tangential to the target. These two forces are on a disconnected, sliding scale. You can have a blow with a lot of both, a lot of one, or even none of one.

Because the latter force (tangential to the target, i.e. a slice) has absolutely no value in SCA rattan combat our fighting systems tend to emphasize the generation of the former force. In other words: we are developing combat systems optimized for clubs, not swords.

jester wrote:Because the latter force (tangential to the target, i.e. a slice) has absolutely no value in SCA rattan combat our fighting systems tend to emphasize the generation of the former force. In other words: we are developing combat systems optimized for clubs, not swords.

Considering that we have the presumed armor of chain... I'd say "rightly so." And no.. we aren't hitting too hard.

Malcolm

Considering that we have the presumed armor of chain... I'd say "rightly so." And no.. we aren't hitting too hard.

Calibration has certainly gone up a bit in my 12 years. I doubt there is any way to avoid that, truth be told, as skill levels go up, so does calibration. Not that anyone is rhinoing or specifically sledge-hammering.. although I'm sure both happen on occasion.. but all it really takes is one or two REALLY hot sticks who require what they consider a "good stout blow" and that is incrementally higher than everyone else is used to, and trickle down means just about everyone will soon ratchet up to that notch.

good thing/bad thing? Depends. Are people in "minimums" getting hurt with any regularity? If not, probably not a bad thing.

When people start pissing blood after bouts, losing teeth, or having severe joint problems/bone issues from combat, then its getting too hard.
I havent really noticed it getting to that point.

Maeryk

this remids me of the fighter's definition of whining.

"Light!Light!Light!EXCESSIVE!!"

The only way to lower calibration would be to enforce a standard of armor where everybody is wearing the same gear. Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
Not likely. If everbody who fought in the SCA was armored exactly to the standard we set in the bylaws, calibration would likely be lower.

Or not. In the end it sort of depends on how polite a fighter is and how much pain he can stand. The best way to raise calibration, however is to up armor standards and to foster a "win" dominated fighting program.

Barin Hamish

but.. Hamish... where do you get the concept that we aren't fighting to WIN? Geez..if that's the case, I need to pull the rebar outta my swords.

DOH..inside voice.. INside voice.



Malcolm

Shameless wrote:but.. Hamish... where do you get the concept that we aren't fighting to WIN? Geez..if that's the case, I need to pull the rebar outta my swords.

DOH..inside voice.. INside voice.



Malcolm

Good grief... Shamey... wanna remember to log outta my machine next time?

Malcolm

knoch wrote:The only Thing I see hollowing out a Rattan sword for would to put a lead weight in it to slide from one end the other. Like a Dead blow hammer. So when you hit the surface all the force is transmitted to in a single blow. I have also heard that in the early days of the SCA. That they would wrap Mase's with lead, or attach Vacums to the ends of rattan swords and siphon Elmers glue up it. But these were justr Rummors

from Knoch

Actually they're not rumors. The siphon of elmers glue actually occured along with motor oil by one individual. Back when I first started back in 1980 in the East Master Feral had confiscated at least one weapon with lead in the blade portion of the sword.

What was more common at the time was to use that technique in the hilt of the sword to make a better counter balance to the blade. It wasn't to 1981 that i saw the first lead cast pommel weight made. The individual who cast them (God I wish I could remember his name.) cast them arround a two or three inch lag bolt that could be screwed into the hilt of the weapon. He had two styles one was a traditional Brazil nut style while the other was a three lobed viking style pommel.

As to the lead tape in the head of mases that is also not a rumor. In fact the first Figthers manual PUPLISHED BY THE SCA had directions that included the use of lead foil in the head. Does any old timers out their still have their copy mine was stolen from the individual that I loaned it to and I never replaced it.

Godfried

Um, gots me a question here since I'm new to the SCA......

I see nothing wrong with this (as a CA) I was told to shoot anyone with a white belt, crown (with permission), shiny helm and anyone giving orders or who looks important. It destroys the enemys command system and leaves them unorganzied and without a leader

In a mixed battle with CA and melee going on, is an archer REALLY going to call out to a crown, "You majesty(highness, whatever), may I have permission to shoot you" ? How does that work? Wouldn't the "commander" of the opposing army have already asked permission to strike the royal army? Cuz personally, if I was a CA, I know I'd be head hunting. Cut off the head, kill the body and all that...... of course, I like to be a punk on FPS comp games and snipe people from across the board......

About 10 years ago a friend of mine bought a full suit of used armour and wepons from a guy and when we stripped down the mace it had 1/4 inch thick lead plates in it. the armour was pretty though

As far as Danzig goes I heard he was a little cockwaffle in person, my piercer met him and asked him for a few autographs, glenn threatend to break them if they were bootlegs...even though the bootlegs were sold through the misfits feind club

Keltoth wrote:Um, gots me a question here since I'm new to the SCA......

I see nothing wrong with this (as a CA) I was told to shoot anyone with a white belt, crown (with permission), shiny helm and anyone giving orders or who looks important. It destroys the enemys command system and leaves them unorganzied and without a leader

In a mixed battle with CA and melee going on, is an archer REALLY going to call out to a crown, "You majesty(highness, whatever), may I have permission to shoot you" ? How does that work? Wouldn't the "commander" of the opposing army have already asked permission to strike the royal army? Cuz personally, if I was a CA, I know I'd be head hunting. Cut off the head, kill the body and all that...... of course, I like to be a punk on FPS comp games and snipe people from across the board......

I am preatty new to the SCA to but when I had just joined I was told at my first war that I wasnt suppose to shoot any royalty without permission. I didnt know how it worked so I asked someone from my group and they told me that somebody would ask for us so I just went out and tried to shoot the royalty

[quote="Dmitriy"]Think about it.. hollowed out rattan hits harder? Not unless you fill it with lead. quote]

Or ball bearings/b-bs... which do make it hit harder, but I recall one person using this was caught when the tip popped open and the bearings were flung all over the field...

Most of the dangerous things have been tried at some point in SCA's history, which is why we now have rules against.

One of my husband's Squires has an old 6 lb resin soaked sword in his garage somewhere, not used, just kept as a piece of SCA history...

-Juliana

We have hollow rattan.. its called bamboo! And if capped properly, its light as hell and hits like a truck. (We had a couple of pieces of one specific type we were screwing around with in hopes of getting it in as an alternate weapon material).

Problem with bamboo is it tends to shatter and shard pretty bad.. unlike Rattan.

Maeryk

Maeryk wrote:We have hollow rattan.. its called bamboo! And if capped properly, its light as hell and hits like a truck. (We had a couple of pieces of one specific type we were screwing around with in hopes of getting it in as an alternate weapon material).

Problem with bamboo is it tends to shatter and shard pretty bad.. unlike Rattan.

Maeryk

The rattan back in the ol' days seemed more dense. It was also quite thick and there were no weight maximums. 5 lb swords were not uncommon. So people filled the "hollow" with resin or lead. And some even lasted with a hole drilled and ball bearings...

Some of the rules out here can be traceable to a particular person ...

the Cameron of Caladoon rules..

Juliana

Cameron would never fill a sword with ball bearing, water, mercury or any other sliding material.

He has never gone out of his way to push the limits of acceptability in SCA combat (or anywhere else for that matter)

Alaric

DukeAlaric wrote:Cameron would never fill a sword with ball bearing, water, mercury or any other sliding material.

He has never gone out of his way to push the limits of acceptability in SCA combat (or anywhere else for that matter)

Alaric

he he he... Though he's much much more PC than he was when he was younger... You got to meet the nicer kinder more mature Cameron.

He was laughing with me the other day on how many of our fighting rules were created just for him - He was always pushing the limits - in EVERYTHING.

Gotta love him.

-J