The Armour Archive

On another thread I read that the Society Earl Marshal is planning on Making 1/2 cuff Gauntlets illegal?

I am not talking about 1/2 gauntlets, but gauntlets that only have 1/2 a wrist cuff on them. The ones that only protect the outside of the wrist.

Like the ones shown here:
http://home.mchsi.com/%7Elynebaker/hands/gauntlet.htm


Is there any truth to this? And if there is, what is his reasoning for it?
Have there been any safety problems with them?

I also have run across that ruling in the mid realm. I had to add a metal spander to the inside of my clamshells. Saw marshals checking for that in hand protection at the last several events. guess wrist shots are more prominant that we thought.

oh, and Irish, with you being in Calontir ...and Calontir lovin' the greatsword so much...seems 300% hand protection would be something you all would strive for!

What is being discussed is wrist protection and what that needs to be. What has been put forward is that the whole wrist needs to be covered, weather it will have to be covered by the cuff of the gaunt, a vambrace or a combination of the two remains to be seen.

What other thread did this come from?

Ceddie wrote:What is being discussed is wrist protection and what that needs to be. What has been put forward is that the whole wrist needs to be covered, weather it will have to be covered by the cuff of the gaunt, a vambrace or a combination of the two remains to be seen.

What other thread did this come from?

It came from Uilleag's leather gauntlet thread on the armour board. It was only said in passing, not discussed.

So, have there been safety issues with the 1/2 cuff gauntlets?
I am all for safe gear. But, I am not for increased armour requirements that are not warrented.

Why was a full wrist cuff proposed?

Have you ever caught the end of a sword on your wrist? It hurts! It has happened to me on rare occasion. It happened twice one day (long time ago) and I was done for the day.

The wrist is supposed to be covered, and the handbook doesn't specify only the outside of the wrist...

Alcyoneus wrote:
The wrist is supposed to be covered, and the handbook doesn't specify only the outside of the wrist...

Yes, as a matter of fact it does.

"5. Hand and Wrist Armor:

The outer surfaces of the hand and wrist of both arms must be covered by one or a combination of the following:

a. A metal basket hilt with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, a vambrace or partial gauntlet shall cover the remaining portions of the hand and wrist.
b. A gauntlet made of rigid plates; either lined with padding or closed cell foam, or designed to transfer potentially injurious impact to the surfaces being grasped.
c. A gauntlet of heavy leather lined with closed cell foam or heavy padding. (Note: A hockey glove is considered to be the equivalent, but looks blatantly modern, and their use is discouraged.) Trimaris does not allow a hockey gloves.
d. A shield with a shield basket or equivalent. (Note: a shield alone is NOT sufficient, since it covers only the back of the hand but not the fingers or thumb.)
e. Street hockey gloves are NOT equivalent. Street hockey gloves may be used in tandem with a demi-gauntlet and basket hilt. Street hockey gloves may also be used behind a shield in tandem with a shield basket."

That is the way I read it to Ceddie.

That ONLY the back of the wrist is required to be protected. Not the inside of the wrist.

Of course protecting the whole thing is smart but not required.

this is the whole point of the rule clearification! I read it one way, you read it the same way Alcyoneus sees something else different. We NEED a set of rules that are clear and to the point.

Hey Alcyoneus, I didn't mean to be that blunt to be a jerk, I was useing that post to make the point about the different ways the rule could be read.

As often as I get hit on in the wrist area and as valuble as my hands are to me, I would not fight without a full cuff.

Having a modicum more wrist flexibility is not worth permanent damage.

Given the vulnerability of the area, I am surprised that it is not a hard cast rule. (I interpret the rule the only the outer hand/wrist must be covered.)

Ceddie wrote:Hey Alcyoneus, I didn't mean to be that blunt to be a jerk, I was useing that post to make the point about the different ways the rule could be read.

No problem it is just a matter of exactly how you read it.

Outer surface of the hand and wrist or Outer surface of the hand and wrist.

then,
A metal basket hilt with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, a vambrace or partial gauntlet shall cover the remaining portions of the hand and wrist.

Realistically, even though I wear a 1/2g with in addition to my basket hilt, with a full cuff, I can still get hit on the back side of my wrist. It is a very difficult area to cover, and still have mobility in the wrist.

In fact, if you look at many period gauntlets, the inside of the wrist is not protected, especially in the 16th century. You have some protection in the late 15th, but it changes at the end.[/b]

Ceddie wrote:

Alcyoneus wrote:
The wrist is supposed to be covered, and the handbook doesn't specify only the outside of the wrist...

Yes, as a matter of fact it does.

"5. Hand and Wrist Armor:

The outer surfaces of the hand and wrist of both arms must be covered by one or a combination of the following:

a. A metal basket hilt with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, a vambrace or partial gauntlet shall cover the remaining portions of the hand and wrist.
b. A gauntlet made of rigid plates; either lined with padding or closed cell foam, or designed to transfer potentially injurious impact to the surfaces being grasped.
c. A gauntlet of heavy leather lined with closed cell foam or heavy padding. (Note: A hockey glove is considered to be the equivalent, but looks blatantly modern, and their use is discouraged.) Trimaris does not allow a hockey gloves.
d. A shield with a shield basket or equivalent. (Note: a shield alone is NOT sufficient, since it covers only the back of the hand but not the fingers or thumb.)
e. Street hockey gloves are NOT equivalent. Street hockey gloves may be used in tandem with a demi-gauntlet and basket hilt. Street hockey gloves may also be used behind a shield in tandem with a shield basket."

The way that reads to me is the whole wrist. That said I would fail a gauntlet that didn't cover the whole wrist. If i'm wrong they can take it up the chain.

Anybody got a collection of official injury reports caused by wearing such gauntlets?

I'm looking for debilitating stuff here, something that causes significant lasting damage, like a lost eye or a shattered elbow would -- not something equivalent to a broken rib (eyes and elbows have to be covered, ribs don't).

No?

Ok then. In that case, it should be up to the wearer.

It says outer surfaces of the hand and wrist, not the entire hand and wrist or the whole hand and wrist or simply the hand and wrist which would imply the whole thing. But they went out of the way to say the outer surfaces of the hand and wrist. Which to me says that you don't need to cover the inside of the wrist just like you don't need to cover the palm of the hand.

Anyway what if your vambrace covers it? why does it have to be covered be the cuff of the gauntlet?

Dmitriy wrote:Anybody got a collection of official injury reports caused by wearing such gauntlets?

I'm looking for debilitating stuff here, something that causes significant lasting damage, like a lost eye or a shattered elbow would -- not something equivalent to a broken rib (eyes and elbows have to be covered, ribs don't).

No?

Ok then. In that case, it should be up to the wearer.

amen

Amen again... if it's not debilitating, it should be up to the fighter.

I say we make a rule to stop rules unless a rule has been made that breaks another rule.

Whatever.

Odo

EGG gauntlets only cover the top and sides of the wrist; I have never been hit on the inside. The rule is unlclear; I have always read it as the top of the hand and wrist, and haven't been questioned on the gauntlets in over 5 years of wearing them..

This seems stupid to me.

Look, I play this game. I know it hurts. I know that people sometimes get hurt. I wear armor to safer, but if I wanted to be Safe, I would play a different game. Getting hit with sticks is never going to be Safe. To try to make it so is stupid.

It it isn't life threatening, then I think that it should be the fighter's choice.

I also think that there is a type of person who just likes to make a new rule so that they can say they make the rules.

I hope that our SEM isn't one of those people.

(Please note, I DO have full bells on my gaunts and half gaunts. I have in the past made my living playing guitar, and I might need to again)

freiman

Dmitriy wrote:Anybody got a collection of official injury reports caused by wearing such gauntlets?

I'm looking for debilitating stuff here, something that causes significant lasting damage, like a lost eye or a shattered elbow would -- not something equivalent to a broken rib (eyes and elbows have to be covered, ribs don't).

No?

Ok then. In that case, it should be up to the wearer.

Actually, I would not even go so far as this. If someone could show a significant number of minor injuries, I would be willing to consider a rules change. If it is significant enough to be reported, then I am willing to consider it.

But, we also need to consider that this may not be a rules change, just a rules clarification, or even a rules enforcement. For several years, this rule read virtually the same as it does today, but in Ansteorra it was interpreted as not requiring a half guantlet with a baskethilt. It took an SEM stating definitively that the wrist had to be covered before Ansteorra started enforcing it that way.

Even if the SEM considers this a clarification rather than a change, I think that he should show a history of injuries that would have been prevented by a full bell cuff.

We have been doing this long enough that I feel that most if not all rules changes should occur in response to actual injuries, rather than in response to percieved risk. Some percieve a risk to be greater than it really is. The only percieved risk that I would be interested in listening to is one that is caused by a rules change. For example, fiberglass spears, when they were introduced, may have presented risks which the rules at the time did not cover. In this case, to wait until actual injuries occured would be irresponsible. On the other hand, to decide that some new risk exists from the same rattan weapons that have been used since before I joined 20 years ago is ridiculous.

Oh, and in case it makes any difference, I only wear and make full cuff gauntlets.

I am on the SEM's Standardization Committee and we are currently reviewing the wording of the rule.

I always thought that this meant that the entire wrist had to be protected by something. But I see where it could be interpreted differently.

Richard

cool! how do i get on that committee?? i got a few things to say!

regards
logan

sarnac wrote:I am on the SEM's Standardization Committee and we are currently reviewing the wording of the rule.

I don't think they swap recipes for babies on that board.

Odo

ps> what is the sauce used for bbq'd baby?

dukelogan wrote:cool! how do i get on that committee?? i got a few things to say!

regards
logan

sarnac wrote:I am on the SEM's Standardization Committee and we are currently reviewing the wording of the rule.

i just slather them in butter as they suckle sweet cream from a bottle. then some garlic and pepper and i throw them in my grill.....

yeah, and i would make a bad sem anyway. too much like responsibilty and all. but i would still like to make them hear my opinions.

regards
logan

Odo wrote:I don't think they swap recipes for babies on that board.

Odo

ps> what is the sauce used for bbq'd baby?

dukelogan wrote:cool! how do i get on that committee?? i got a few things to say!

regards
logan

sarnac wrote:I am on the SEM's Standardization Committee and we are currently reviewing the wording of the rule.

I think we should start checking armour for armpits, and the inner crooks of elbows, and the back of knees and ....

Oh wait, no, those are stupid rules too.

You get appointted by your Crown and then get subscribed to the list...

then you get bored to tears like the rest of us.

dukelogan wrote:cool! how do i get on that committee?? i got a few things to say!

regards
logan

sarnac wrote:I am on the SEM's Standardization Committee and we are currently reviewing the wording of the rule.

That's only because it takes me 3 or 4 paragraphs to type what you sum up in a line or two.

Asbjorn
(EK representative)

Not trying to sidetrack the discussion, but this topic sounds similar to the requirement Meridies starting *enforcing* a year or two ago. That is, the requirement for padding in demi-gauntlets.

From the Meridian handbook:

7. Hand and Wrist Armor:

ii. A basket hilt made of rigid material with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, supplemental protection (usually in the form of a half-gauntlet of metal or heavy leather backed with foam) is required to cover the back of the hand and wrist, including the lowest joint of the thumb.

According to the above, it appears that you don't need padding if you wear a metal demi gauntlet. The words "usually" and "or" are used. It never definitively says you "shall" use foam.

I wore unpadded demis for years. And before I started, other Meridians wore unpadded demis for years. All of the sudden, now it is required because of how a certain person(s) interprets the rule.

In summary, the rules are sometimes written poorly. Also, it appears that there is a trend of too much emphasis being put into regulations instead of personal responsibility.

Leaving out chunks of armour (that are not required by minimal standards) so you can swing the stick faster will possibly get you hurt. Everyone should know that and do it at their own risk.

dukelogan wrote:i just slather them in butter as they suckle sweet cream from a bottle. then some garlic and pepper and i throw them in my grill.....

yeah, and i would make a bad sem anyway. too much like responsibilty and all. but i would still like to make them hear my opinions.

regards
logan

mmmmmmmm yummy.......I mean that is despicable!

Odo

Logan,

Looking through the members list and introductions, I don't see any reps from Atlantia. The chairman of the Committie is Sir Kief av Kiersted. He is a very easy going, straightforward guy. Duke JoeAngus is the list wrangler. I could send you a PM with their e-mails, if you like.

Regards,
Jean Richard
One of the Ansteorran Reps

why hell, we are the biggest criminals in the world and we break all the rules constantly. why on earth are we not on this list making sure that our evil ways live on forever??

i would love to have their contact info and would be happy to assist in any way i can.

regards
logan

Jean Richard Malcolmson wrote:Logan,

Looking through the members list and introductions, I don't see any reps from Atlantia. The chairman of the Committie is Sir Kief av Kiersted. He is a very easy going, straightforward guy. Duke JoeAngus is the list wrangler. I could send you a PM with their e-mails, if you like.

Regards,
Jean Richard
One of the Ansteorran Reps

IMO its about time to get in a new SEM...

After the last pooha at pensic about face thrusting with 9 footers where breezes where considered good by the marshalate, ive reached my limit.


anymore rules monering and we will be subject to inspection while armoring, hands on cup inspection since our word isnt good enough, and possibly full steel only rules..


next you'll be required to buy an M1 abrams and foam mat the barrels...


I used to think being an adult meant YOU are responsible for YOU...

Reactive airbag armor as Society Minimum.

Alcyoneus wrote:Reactive airbag armor as Society Minimum.

Hey we already have proactive airbags.