The Armour Archive

I'm thinking about using a katar in my off hand as a parrying weapon. I'm trying to get out from behind that huge sheild but swinging a sword in my left hand is somewhat reminiscent of Jerry Lewis on crack. The madu was a lot of fun, but it got too familiar and comfortable so I'm looking for something that's gonna make me fight my ass off just to stay even. Batu said he'd weld up the handle for me and I was thinking of using about a foot and a half of rattan for the blade part. I'm gonna put a point on it and edges, but it's gonna be mostly a parrying stick. Any thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks

Animal Weretiger wrote:I'm thinking about using a katar in my off hand as a parrying weapon. I'm trying to get out from behind that huge sheild but swinging a sword in my left hand is somewhat reminiscent of Jerry Lewis on crack. The madu was a lot of fun, but it got too familiar and comfortable so I'm looking for something that's gonna make me fight my ass off just to stay even. Batu said he'd weld up the handle for me and I was thinking of using about a foot and a half of rattan for the blade part. I'm gonna put a point on it and edges, but it's gonna be mostly a parrying stick. Any thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks

I was gonna say that weapons that allow you to punch are not allowed. But it appears that ain't the case anymore. Be nice.

Jester, can you eloborate on this?

Yah Jester. I'm not sure what you mean either.

Some kingdoms had rules that prohibited weapons that allowed you to punch with them. The idea was that a weapon that allowed you to get your entire body-weight behind a 2" wide striking area was a bad idea. It also raised the spectre of people having daggers attached to vambraces (as, indeed, one version of the katar does) while holding swords. Things like shovel-handled spears were also forbidden.

I'd have to dig deep into my highly disorganized archives to find specific references but it's not really necessary. I couldn't find any rule prohibiting such weapons at the Society level or in a quick search of the Atlantian rules.

A quick google search gives us:

Outlands, Obsolete
Weapons that allow the fighter to punch (in which the line between the body to the weapon along which force travels is unbroken, rather than a thrust, in which the line between the body and the weapon is angled) are forbidden. Examples of forbidden weapons include, but are not limited to "warboards", knight's shields, punch daggers, and shovel handle spears.

West Kingdom, 2001 (No idea if this is still current)
d. Grip, Guard, and Pommel
(2) No sword shall be designed so that the grip is perpendicular to the blade (i.e., a khatar or punch-dagger).

I recall, and I believe there's been a thread (at least a thread) on the AA, that punching Shields were outlawed Society wide some time ago.

That's distinguishable from a punching weapon, such as a Katar. I know that about 4 years ago one of my squires made up a pair here in the East and took them to the marshalls. There didn't appear to be any generic ban on the form of weapon, although there was a good deal of concern (I believe rightly) about making sure they were constructed with adequate safeguards.

I would ask your kingdom Earl Marshal.

Gavin

Kilkenny wrote:I recall, and I believe there's been a thread (at least a thread) on the AA, that punching Shields were outlawed Society wide some time ago.

That's distinguishable from a punching weapon, such as a Katar. I know that about 4 years ago one of my squires made up a pair here in the East and took them to the marshalls. There didn't appear to be any generic ban on the form of weapon, although there was a good deal of concern (I believe rightly) about making sure they were constructed with adequate safeguards.

I would ask your kingdom Earl Marshal.

Gavin

That's a misconception, Your Grace. The Society level rules require that shields designed for offensive used be approved you your kingdom marshallate. The relevant rule (from the Marshals Handbook, Online) is:
IV. Use of Weapons and Shields
D. Deliberately striking an opponent’s head, limbs, or body with a shield is forbidden, unless that shield is designed for use as a weapon, and is approved by the Kingdom Marshallate

I figure this is a great place to use the two handed thrusting tip From Mandrake. I love the single handed tip on my saber. I could imagine the objection to a shovel handed spear, but this is gonna be about a foot and a half long. I dont think I'm gonna go around hurting people with it. I'd really like to give it a try though. Especially with my new gauntlets from uilleag! I love those things!

Animal Weretiger wrote:I figure this is a great place to use the two handed thrusting tip From Mandrake. I love the single handed tip on my saber. I could imagine the objection to a shovel handed spear, but this is gonna be about a foot and a half long. I dont think I'm gonna go around hurting people with it. I'd really like to give it a try though. Especially with my new gauntlets from uilleag! I love those things!

Just check your kingdoms rules on punch daggers if you use it at SCA events. They might have length and type restrictions or may be outright illegal there.

Also, if you are looking for something different to try, you might try Iron cross style sword or dagger in your off hand. Basically invert the sword/dagger so that it points down and fight with it that way. That is the way I fight Florentine. It is easier for me to block and I don't have to worry about swinging with my off hand but I have a thrusting tip there to keep them honest.

Also a small buckler will greatly improve your sheild work.

I could be wrong, but I think offensive shields are illegial. Now would a "katar" fall into that catagory? I'm not sure. I think i'll ask Timoch and see what he says....

Nah. It's a dagger, not a sheild. No where near the mass.

only question I would have is about the hand guard, whiether that would count as part of the weapon and not as "armour". You'd think it would be like a basket hilt (i.e. you can block with it and not call it as a blow...)

I don't know. It's a good question. Since it's not a european weapon, i'd never use one, but that's me....

jester wrote:

Kilkenny wrote:I recall, and I believe there's been a thread (at least a thread) on the AA, that punching Shields were outlawed Society wide some time ago.

That's distinguishable from a punching weapon, such as a Katar. I know that about 4 years ago one of my squires made up a pair here in the East and took them to the marshalls. There didn't appear to be any generic ban on the form of weapon, although there was a good deal of concern (I believe rightly) about making sure they were constructed with adequate safeguards.

I would ask your kingdom Earl Marshal.

Gavin

That's a misconception, Your Grace. The Society level rules require that shields designed for offensive used be approved you your kingdom marshallate. The relevant rule (from the Marshals Handbook, Online) is:
IV. Use of Weapons and Shields
D. Deliberately striking an opponent’s head, limbs, or body with a shield is forbidden, unless that shield is designed for use as a weapon, and is approved by the Kingdom Marshallate

sigh.

Why is it that something has to be "a misconception" ? In the event that they've revoked the ban, which of course is always possible, it changes not the fact that there was one instituted. Circumstances being reasonably well known to me, I don't feel that I suffer from any misconception here whatsoever.

History.. we have it in the SCA too.

Gavin

I was thinking about making a hardened leather cover tor the barwork Batu is gonna make me. As for blocking with it? Not on purpose. It's still my hand in there. Not a good idea.

Seems like it would be ok to me....

Years ago I saw a fighter make a pata or sword sized katar for SCA fighting. He had welded up a tubular basket hilt with the crossbars for punching and then welded a section of pipe (maybe 3-4" long) to the front with a big lag bolt sticking up through the center that he could screw the rattan blade into. He wasn't a very practiced or fast fighter and it didn't seem to work well.

I'm staying out of the legal or not side but I'd be willing to fight one.

Hey Animal, make a punching axe. They are a ton of fun.

Make a 3'-4' bearded axe and hold the axe up by the top so that the beard comes down over your fist.

You can then put thrusting tips on the top and bottom if you like too. Jab the guy like a madu if you want and if he gets in close, give him a left cross with the blade. It doesn't get much more fun than that.

For even more fun, make two and get a buddy who also has the same. Then it is time for a little Norse boxing. You'll like it, I guarantee.

Hrogn

Ya know, I made one of those and used it for about a year. I called it 'Stabby' because I killed more people with the buttspike than I ever did with the blade. I'm just looking for other fun things to do. The katar seems like a real blast.

I fought with a guy live steel who used a pair of Katar,(we called him the dextrous little bitch! ) the blades themselves were only about 10 to maybee 12 inches long, and the gaurds were probably 7 to 8 inches down the wrist from wherethe grip bar was. They covered probably a good 3- 3 1/2 inches over the leagal target area. I bet they would just hold it on the honor system, if you got hit in the legal area.

You gotta be damn fast with those things, I could never use them!

Heres a pretty good pic of him...or 2

Seen once at pennsic about 3 yrs ago on a fighter an he had a sheild .. stood out because of how he was holding it .. so i got a bit of a look ...

A formal combat with matched short swords and thrusting shields.