The Armour Archive

I.E. ones that can be struck. Please respond with your Kingdom's name. Thanks.

All Midrealm archers are full combatants -


Dilan

Sorry for the delay, I had to pull out my Marshall binder (have heavy, combat archery and thrown all in one notebook). The Meridian Combat archery manual reads that "All Authorized MWC's (Missile Weapon Combatants) within the kingdom of Meridies will be considereed Heavy Archers and are subject to being struck while engaged in melee" On a side note, what are the technical rules to *shields*? Aka, if I take a 2" piece of wood, bend it to look like a bow and perhaps put a string on it, can I use it as a shield if I am an archer persona (in SCA)?

AEthelmearc does - since archers have to wear Society minimum armor (exc. for 'archer gauntlets'), and they're on the field, well, they're targets for any legal blow, like everyone else. We also have CA as being just another heavy weapons form, like weapon & shield, or polearm, or spear, so any CA going on the field is an authorized heavy fighter.

Now, since you can't can't do a full draw from less than 10' (a real problem for crossbows), or block or strike with a bow, we've been training the archers to drop, yield, and die defensively, if they don't want to take a chance on getting struck, like what might happen if they try to run away or something.

Caid does too apparently, as does Trimaris...

The only kingdoms that have non-contact kill archers (proximity-kill) are:

Drachenwald
An Tir
West
Lochac

and atlantia is the only one with touch kill archers

You can also check this out on my website:

http://www.combat-archery.com/archertypes.htm

An Tir and West are getting more and more full contact archers, less proximity kill. I believe the West is planning on phasing out the proximity kill ones.

I strongly believe that if Atlantia would go to full contact archers that it would greatly help combat archery there and it will increase the repect of the archers. and this is me speaking.. the one who fought that change for what 10 years?? before I moved to a full contact kingdom and saw how much better it is, being full contact.

Tessa, Princess of AEthelmearc

Your Highness, with your permission I am going to, if I may, forward this to our Knight's email list...

Please feel free. I'll be Atlantia Coronation this weekend, too.. if anyone wants to talk to me in person about it.

I figure since I've fought all three styles (for years for each), proximity, touch kill and full contact.. I can easily discuss the pros and cons of each. and which are better accepted and included with the rest of the fighters.

We are also working on an idea which may help your crossbow archers switch from one weapons form to the next. I can talk to you more about that either this weekend or at Blackstone.

Tessa, Princess of AEthelmearc

I have one little note to add about An Tir. I believe that even though one can be a "proximity kill" archer, they must still wear full-contact heavy armour on the field even though they do not get struck.

Avalon (the Japanese Avalon) doesn't fight with quiet the same system as the SCA, but it is close. We share the same safety standards. At our current stage of development, archers are considered entirely support troops. They are sworn to a particular fighter, and must do everything they can to support that fighter, because when he is slain, they are considered routed and driven from the field.

Later on, we will have heavy combat archers as well, and still later yet we will have free "heroic" archers. But all of that will be a while from now.

Tessa you forgot Ansteorra and our lovely little red pheons. Here you have the choice of heavy archer (meaning you can and will get hit) and non-contact with pheons on your helm. We do not have many of these. Most of our archers fight on the field or list so getting hit is nothing new. All our heavies have to have a basic armoured chiv authorzations anyhow. Last time I looked we only had one person that was not a heavy archer. Something about a neck problem so he cant be hit.

Yep, An Tir has non-contact archers. From what I understand here, 'Yeoman' simply means you can hit the archer in many kingdoms? In An Tir, 'Yeoman' is a baronial title given to accomplished combat archers who serve the Barony in war etc. Yeoman are considered to be on an equal level with Baronial Sergeants (heavy fighting).

~Wil

As much as I'd love to be able to hit an archer thats been hunting me all day I am totally in support of Non-contact war Archery.

There are several people who would love to strap on Armour and fight heavy but can't due to medical conditions. We even have a guy that fights from a wheel chair. Non-contact War Archery allows them to come out and take part in a very cool aspect of the sca.

I'm not opposed to Heavy archers. I just don't want to see AnTir shift to Contact war archery only and mess with peoples fun.

Sir Angar

Angar tell them to come on down to Ansteorra. We have two people that I am friends with that both fight from wheelchairs. And I do mean fight. You will not want to get hit by Richard or Fearghus. Both can pack a wallup. Fearghus also does combat archery and both are decent threats at the butts.

Meridies has full-contact archers. Furthermore, in Gleann Abhann, I know very few people that are "combat archery only" authorized. All but one that I know are dual-authorized, and most are fairly skilled at heavy combat.

Broinnfinn

I think it's awesome that they are able to fight heavy. The fellow I'm speaking of has ms and could not. My point is there are people out there who cannot fight heavy because it is either physically impossible or medically unsafe. I find that the joy they feel just taking the field and being a part of a battle greatly outweighs my inconvienience of not being able to strike them. Why take that way from them?

I know a guy who builds the most amazing crossbows. He has outfitted and trained over twenty noncontact archers. They are a devistating force on any war field. He also has a degenerative bone condition and can't risk heavy fighting. His belief in the SCA "dream" is as strong as anyones. He will never be king or a knight but he is a leader and a Warrior who is feared for his prowess on the war field. Why take that away from him?

I would ask her Highness Tessa to consider the wellfair of all of her Subjects before she dismisses Non-contact Archery

Sir Angar
AnTir

Wil wrote:Yep, An Tir has non-contact archers. From what I understand here, 'Yeoman' simply means you can hit the archer in many kingdoms? In An Tir, 'Yeoman' is a baronial title given to accomplished combat archers who serve the Barony in war etc. Yeoman are considered to be on an equal level with Baronial Sergeants (heavy fighting).

~Wil

True, but it is a Kingdom Title for An Tir, but the Yeomen, Sergeants, Gallants & Courtiers are all sworn in fealty to their Baronesses and thru them to the Crown of An Tir. The Trials in An Tir put this is a different level category than just a "fighting" rank as it is in many other kingdoms.

Iain Ruadh
(Sergeant of both An Tir (Barony of Blatha An Oir) and the Midrealm)

Agnar, the thing to remember is that that Society rules clearly state that non-contact archers are allowed. That is a given that can not be taken away. Now the individual kingdoms are allowed as to how that will be determined. I believe what HRH Tessa is doing is changing the rules to allow heavy combat archers. I could not find a copy of the Aethermarc's marshal handbook so I can not determine that they only have non-contact archer now. Hopefully Tessa will enlighten us on this. Non-contact can mean anyone approaching within 10'. touch kill, etc.

As far as the people you have mentioned a hardy Vivat to them. Any who in whatever capacity can help the marshal sports deserve that. But the one thing that most forget is that anyone on the field must be able to take and/or recognize a good blow. Hopefully that will never happen but they must be aware that it might. Any who intentionally hit those designated as non-contact should be punished. Overall we are all here to have fun. Lets please try not to break our friends.

Angar Skeggason wrote:I would ask her Highness Tessa to consider the wellfair of all of her Subjects before she dismisses Non-contact Archery

Sir Angar
AnTir

Sir Angar, combat archers in my Kingdom, AEthelmearc were full contact archers before I moved here. I'm not doing away with non contact archery here, we don't do that now. See my list above for those kingdoms that still allow it.

Atlantia, currenty does touch kill (not proximity like An Tir). I strongly believe it would be better for them to go full contact. Having fought for a number of years, touch kill and full contact.. I've actually been hit less often as a full contact archer than I was as a touch kill and the average fighter war leader tends to give you more respect if you are full contact.

I don't know if I would try to encourage Atlantia to go to full contact if they were what I consider to be true non contact (proximity kill). Since they are touch kill and that doesn't work well with the surrounding kingdoms being full contact, it would be easier and better, IMO if they switched to full contact. I also believe (having lived in Atlantia for many years and authorizing CA in '84 there..and conducting over 300 CA authorizations there. Many years of training and teaching archers there, etc) that full contact would be a much better choice for Atlantia than "touch-kill".

I am a combat archer and I have been for many years. If I thought non-contact would be better here, I would encourage a switch to it, but we have a different fighting culture here than An Tir. We haven't been doing CA in AEthelmearc for ~ 30 years and as proximity kill archers, like An Tir has. Here that would be an unwelcome change. It works for an Tir and that is a good thing (I've visited An Tir twice now and even fought as a combat archer at their Autumn War last year), but just because that works for An Tir does not mean that it would work well in other areas. If you want me to expalin this better, I'll be happy to do so.

Being Society CA marshal for a couple of years meant I got to spend a lot of time talking to archers in each kingdom about what worked or didn't in their kingdom and why. I also spent a good bit of time, traveling as much as I could to other kingdoms, so I could see their combat archery first hand, meet their archers, etc, etc. That along with my personal experience, etc.. means that I feel I have a very good feel for CA in each kingdom and it's pros and cons.

I hope that helps explain my opinions and original posts better. If it doesn't let me know. I'm always happy to exchange helpful questions and emails.

Tessa, Princess of AEthelmearc

iaenmor wrote:You will not want to get hit by Richard or Fearghus. Both can pack a wallup.

People who move around by using their arms...

iaenmor wrote:Agnar, the thing to remember is that that Society rules clearly state that non-contact archers are allowed. That is a given that can not be taken away. Now the individual kingdoms are allowed as to how that will be determined. I believe what HRH Tessa is doing is changing the rules to allow heavy combat archers. I could not find a copy of the Aethermarc's marshal handbook so I can not determine that they only have non-contact archer now. Hopefully Tessa will enlighten us on this. Non-contact can mean anyone approaching within 10'. touch kill, etc.

The AEthelmearc Marshallate policies are buried in http://www.aethelmearc.org/downloads/lawandpolicy/aethelmearc_officer_policies.pdf, though they're in the process of a re-write with publication probably within the next month or so, and will be getting their own document online at that time; the only change made relevant to CA is we now require marshals in CA combat zones to wear appropriate eye protection, and strongly encourage throat protection as well.

iaenmor wrote:As far as the people you have mentioned a hardy Vivat to them. Any who in whatever capacity can help the marshal sports deserve that. But the one thing that most forget is that anyone on the field must be able to take and/or recognize a good blow. Hopefully that will never happen but they must be aware that it might. Any who intentionally hit those designated as non-contact should be punished. Overall we are all here to have fun. Lets please try not to break our friends.

That is exactly the reason why AEthelmearc has no 'light' archers - we feel that combining light archers and heavy archers on the same field could constitute a danger to the light archers, and given how minimal the armor requirements are to begin with, and the fact that anyone may always choose to drop defensively and yield, anyone who cannot risk taking a blow, or cannot physically wear armor, is probably too much of a potential danger to themselves to be on the field; I realize that this does mean excluding some who might wish to participate, but remember that this is a sport where we run around and club each other with large sticks - it has some inherent danger of physical damage, and must be recognized and treated as such.

"People who move around by using their arms..." Yep they do. You will see them at Gulf Wars on the field. I believe Richard uses a sports wheelchair and Fearghus has an electric one. Both seem to get along allright to me. Now we have helped Richard by giving him a push so he can catch up once in awhile but most of the time he mossy's along buy himself. Doesn't seem to have a problem finding a fight either.

I've seen/met one of them (whichever is associated with Earl Duncan). Anyone who pushes themselves around with their arms isn't going to be weak.

That would be Richard. Nice guy and packs a wallop.

My squire brother.

Yah, a few years ago one of our guys fought at Pennsic in his wheelchair. His health has since made that impossible. But when he fought he meant it. I've also scrapped that guy from down south with one leg. I fought him as hard as I would anyone else because I think it wolda insulted him had I done otherwise. And after talking to him it really wasnt in my heart to do that.