The Armour Archive

How do heavy-archers, mediums, what ever you call them defeat the hand protection rules in the US?

I can't imagine using a bow with a heavy guantlet is all.
Specially with them there golf-tube arrow thingys

Tanks!

Randall

From the official rules at http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/archery/missile_combat_plus_supplement.pdf

Full-Contact Combat Archers shall wear an “Archer’s Gauntlet'' on the hand which is
used to pick up and draw arrows. The hand in which the bow is held shall meet the
minimum Society standards for hand protection for a fully armoured, heavy weapons
combatant. The “Archer’s Gauntlet'' shall be a minimum of a hockey glove with the
fingers cut off, so that the back of the hand and the wrist are protected. Other gauntlets
such as demi-gauntlets may be used in place of the “Archer’s Gauntlet'' described above,
so long as they provide equivalent or greater protection.

[quote]A Full-Contact Combat Archer may become a regular combatant provided that he/she
is authorized as a regular combatant and does two things:
· Discards his/her bow in a safe manner, so as not to cause a hazard, and replaces
it with an approved weapon/weapons and/or shield.
· Either changes his/her “Archer’s Gauntletâ€Â

Archers are allowed by Society rules to wear two archers half gauntlets. Some kingdoms require more than this as is their right. Check with your marshals to find out what is allowed in your kingdom.

Griffin please note this change.
"The only exception to this rule shall be those missile combatants equipped with the
"Archers Gauntlet'' All missile combatants may wear an archers gauntlet on both
hands. Full hand protection is recommended for an archer's bow hand, and whenever
conditions place the hand holding a throwing weapon at risk of being struck. The
"Archer's Gauntlet'' shall be a minimum of an ice hockey glove with the fingers cut
off, so that the back of the hand and the wrist are protected. Other gauntlets such as
demi-gauntlets may be used in place of the "Archers Gauntlet" described above, so
long as they provide equivalent or greater protection."

I actually wear a full gauntlet on both hands, but they're Kydex so the weight isnt' an issue (note: I've handled very good steel gauntlets that were just as light, and even more protective, than my Kydex ones, but those cost 4 - 6 times as much).

Also, when shooting, I slip the fingers free from the top straps in the gauntlet on my draw hand (to better grip the nock), and then secure them back under the straps before entering melee combat; it actually works quite well, except for the fact that I'm not a very good archer. :-\

See now, I was under the impression that you could either be an archer or be a heavy fighter, not both. Is this in fact the case? I would love to start a melee with my bow, case the bow, draw my saber and close. I dunno who was telling me, but for some reason I thought you couldnt do that.

I am more than aware of the rules, I am more curious as to how people implement them as I imagine drawing a bow with either kind of arrow with a guantlet would be difficult, specially on the release.

Thanks Kore that does help.

Animal, Some kingdoms have different rules on if they allow "medium" or Heavy Archers, best check with a local marshal. Lochac didn't allow for them while we where part of the Westm now we be on our own people are exploring these strange creatures.

Thanks all
Sir Randall
Aneala/Lochac

You can use the guantlets as a shelf that you can fire off of. Most archers will wear a half guantlet on the string hand with just your glove exposed. No different than using a tab or archers glove. Shooting the tubular stuff may require that you cant the bow slightly. Kinda of a pain to grasp the arrows but with practise.

Animal Weretiger wrote:See now, I was under the impression that you could either be an archer or be a heavy fighter, not both. Is this in fact the case? I would love to start a melee with my bow, case the bow, draw my saber and close. I dunno who was telling me, but for some reason I thought you couldnt do that.

It's in "experimental" locally. They were/are calling it "yeoman" archers, where basically you can do just that. Fire, fire, fire - out of ammo, ditch your bow (safely), draw a weapon and go fight. Unfortunately, the "ditch your bow safely" portion was sounding like you had to put it outside of the melee area (out of the sidelines).

I want to do it, too.

I wear finger gauntlets made by John Gruber.

In the very rare event I am not myself shot before running out of ammo I hand my crossbow to a henchman, take his spear and proceed while he takes the bow out of bounds and then returns.

Nissan Maxima wrote:I wear finger gauntlets made by John Gruber.

You left out "beautiful and amazing" in your description of those mitts. They are fantastic!

In the very rare event I am not myself shot before running out of ammo I hand my crossbow to a henchman, take his spear and proceed while he takes the bow out of bounds and then returns.

Hmm. Now that's not a bad idea at all. Could do a "designated runner" type thing.

iaenmor wrote:"The only exception to this rule shall be those missile combatants equipped with the "Archers Gauntlet'' All missile combatants may wear an archers gauntlet on both hands. The "Archer's Gauntlet'' shall be a minimum of an ice hockey glove with the fingers cut off, so that the back of the hand and the wrist are protected. Other gauntlets such as demi-gauntlets may be used in place of the "Archers Gauntlet" described above, so
long as they provide equivalent or greater protection."

I knew something sounded off to me about this statement. Coming from the Meridian combat archery handbook: "a. A full gauntlet is required on the 'bow' or 'stock' hand of archers.
b. At least a half gauntlet with leather glove underneath is required on the 'string' or 'trigger' hand of archers."
Just a general reminder, check your kingdom rules as they can be more stringent than Society rules.

Animal Weretiger wrote:See now, I was under the impression that you could either be an archer or be a heavy fighter, not both. Is this in fact the case? I would love to start a melee with my bow, case the bow, draw my saber and close. I dunno who was telling me, but for some reason I thought you couldnt do that.

I don't know who told you that either, but the gist of the rules as they've stood for several years (at least in AEthelmearc, and I'm sure it's also been legal at Pennsic) is that if you are using a bow, and want to switch to a melee weapon, you need to do the following:

1. not block with the bow, or even be holding the bow when you're striking with a melee weapon;
2. either hand the bow off to someone else, or put it on the ground flat (I suppose you could unstring it and put it on your back or something, but that'd take a lot of time);
3. make sure that your hands are properly armored for melee combat (i.e. if you're shooting with a half-gauntlet, either switch to a full gauntlet, or put the half-gauntlet in a basket hilt or some such)

If you have any other questions, you know where to find me.

tlast wrote:

Nissan Maxima wrote:I wear finger gauntlets made by John Gruber.

You left out "beautiful and amazing" in your description of those mitts. They are fantastic!

Nissan Maxima wrote:In the very rare event I am not myself shot before running out of ammo I hand my crossbow to a henchman, take his spear and proceed while he takes the bow out of bounds and then returns.

I guess that's more important with a crossbow than a handbow; I just drop my bow and draw my katana (unless it's a limited-access battle, like a bridge or castle, and I've cleverly brought a bigger weapon to switch to, and can get the bow out-of-bounds and pick up the other weapon safely.

tlast wrote:Hmm. Now that's not a bad idea at all. Could do a "designated runner" type thing.

Maybe I should get a henchman for that ...
then again, maybe I should take squires at some point too ...

Why? Is there some reason that a bow, if properly constructed to stand up to melee combat and NOT USED TO STRIKE ANYONE, can not be used as a proper "shield"? I was brainstorming ideas, and to be totally period, I would have a bow as a blocking *thing*, and a shortsword as that is what happened when english archers were engaged. Lets compare, bow/or/life, bow/or/life??? The only suggestion I have heard, besides crafting it to be bigger than an 1 1/4" at any given diameter is to *attempt* to take a 5-6 ft of Thick rattan and tiller it down until you have a rattan bow. Not sure if this would work for actually shooting but for blocking??? Is there any reason why not Marshalls?

OswynHaddock wrote:Why? Is there some reason that a bow, if properly constructed to stand up to melee combat and NOT USED TO STRIKE ANYONE, can not be used as a proper "shield"?

In this case you're not actually talking about a bow, but a "bow-shaped parrying object". I don't see why you wouln't be able to use one of these.

The only suggestion I have heard, besides crafting it to be bigger than an 1 1/4" at any given diameter is to *attempt* to take a 5-6 ft of Thick rattan and tiller it down until you have a rattan bow. Not sure if this would work for actually shooting but for blocking??? Is there any reason why not Marshalls?

You'd have difficulty getting a "parrying bow" that you could actually shoot because if you could tiller rattan in a manner that would make it shaped properly, with "legal" thicknesses for it and it could shoot (and pass a bow inspection), I believe it would most likely have too heavy a draw for SCA combat use. But I don't see why an "unstrung bow" made in this manner couldn't be used as a parrying device. It would be unusual - but illegal?

yes, bows can not be used as blocking devices. It's specified in the rules. If you have ever seen a bow break, with the string flying thru the air you would understand.

It is not worth the increased safety risk, to allow people to block with bows. It would add confusion to allow archers to block with some, but not all. Right now the rules are simple.. you may not block with a bow and you may not intentionally target a bow.

If you want to have something to block with try a stabelin/framea.

You can work with your household or fighting unit and have one or more person take your bow/crossbow off the field. Crossbows may not be left on the field. Several areas are also experiementing with "crossbow slings" which show great promise and will give archers even more options when switching weapons.

You are allowed to carry a shield slung on your body, so once you've safely discarded your bow/crossbow you can use your shield and/or arm yourself with a weapon that you can block with.

Animal, Atlantia currently has touch kill archers but they are experiementing with yeoman/full contact ones. You were told what is current in your kingdom.

Just FYI.. half gauntlets are usually used over full gauntlets.. nothing to do with weight, everything to do with teh fact that full gauntlets are much more likely to cut your bow string and/or get caught on it. I can explain this at length if anyone wants to know the reasons archers usually have archer guantlets or half gauntlets.. or good leather gauntlets, etc..

Tessa, Princess of AEThelmearc

OswynHaddock wrote:Why? Is there some reason that a bow, if properly constructed to stand up to melee combat and NOT USED TO STRIKE ANYONE, can not be used as a proper "shield"?
I was brainstorming ideas, and to be totally period, I would have a bow as a blocking *thing*, and a shortsword as that is what happened when english archers were engaged. Lets compare, bow/or/life, bow/or/life??? The only suggestion I have heard, besides crafting it to be bigger than an 1 1/4" at any given diameter is to *attempt* to take a 5-6 ft of Thick rattan and tiller it down until you have a rattan bow. Not sure if this would work for actually shooting but for blocking??? Is there any reason why not Marshalls?

There are several problems, which I'll try to cover:

The first is that making a bow at least 1 1/4" thick would be real tough; in conversations I've had with bowyers, they could not think of any way of making such a bow functional, at least not for SCA combat. And if you tried to make such out of rattan it just wouldn't work at all - rattan just doesn't flex in the right way for a bow.

The second is the concern over the string being under tension - given the amount of power that a bowstring has in potential, and even more when being drawn, there is some belief that if the string were to come off during some sort of blocking maneuever, near the face, it could cause an injury (the string being less than 1 1/4" thick)

Now, if you had a stick (rattan if you're considering striking someone with it), at least 1 1/4" in diameter, that looked like a bow, with a string *not* under (significant) tension, then IMO, you could use it as a blocking object. But that's not a bow, that's just a vaguely bow-shaped stick.

So we're still at "you can't block with a bow", because there's no way to make something that's functionally a bow for combat archery and fulfills the various safety requirements.


As for having to compromise persona 'reality' with SCA combat regs, well, it's something all of us have to do, and many of us even with something as focused as CA.

Koredono wrote:There are several problems, which I'll try to cover:

The first is that making a bow at least 1 1/4" thick would be real tough; in conversations I've had with bowyers, they could not think of any way of making such a bow functional, at least not for SCA combat. And if you tried to make such out of rattan it just wouldn't work at all - rattan just doesn't flex in the right way for a bow.

Why does the bow need to be 1 1/4"? Shields dont need to be. I believe that rule applies only to items you plan on hitting someone with. If the problem is the idea of its point slipping into an eye slot, cant you just put a cap on the ends?

Hedinn wrote:

Koredono wrote:There are several problems, which I'll try to cover:

The first is that making a bow at least 1 1/4" thick would be real tough; in conversations I've had with bowyers, they could not think of any way of making such a bow functional, at least not for SCA combat. And if you tried to make such out of rattan it just wouldn't work at all - rattan just doesn't flex in the right way for a bow.

Why does the bow need to be 1 1/4"? Shields dont need to be. I believe that rule applies only to items you plan on hitting someone with. If the problem is the idea of its point slipping into an eye slot, cant you just put a cap on the ends?

Shields are not required to be 1 1/4", because due to the arc, it won't penetrate more than 1/2" into a visor. If you had a protrusion on your shield, it'd need to be padded. But the cap on the ends is an interesting idea.

I think a simple answer to why you can't block with a bow is simply that, in theory, the rattan swords are to be considered to be metal and bows are not. Steel + Wood = No more bow and probably no more arm. Can you imagine an archer attempting to hold his ground with nothing more than a yew stave against a fully armed man-at-arms who's swinging 3 feet of sharpened steel? Personally, I'd have run off long before that.

tlast wrote:Shields are not required to be 1 1/4", because due to the arc, it won't penetrate more than 1/2" into a visor. If you had a protrusion on your shield, it'd need to be padded. But the cap on the ends is an interesting idea.

The points could. Does the Middle require them to pad them to 1.25", or was that just a rumor?

There are no non-contact archers in Calontir. I use an xbow, and wear full gauntlets because if you get close, I am grabbing my 9' spear, or GS, and beating you down.

Those are my 'back-up' weapons.

Alcyoneus wrote:

tlast wrote:Shields are not required to be 1 1/4", because due to the arc, it won't penetrate more than 1/2" into a visor. If you had a protrusion on your shield, it'd need to be padded. But the cap on the ends is an interesting idea.

The points could.

I've even seen this happen; mind you, it was self-inflicted, but still caused what was probably a concussion (it was a very long time ago, and we luckily had well-trained medical personnel on site)

Alcyoneus wrote:Does the Middle require them to pad them to 1.25", or was that just a rumor?

I'm pretty sure that's just a rumor, given that every year at Blackstone Raids and AEthelmearc War Practice we have to bounce some shields from the Midrealm that show up because they have no edging on them whatsoever, and these shields are clearly not brand new (actually, I think we got the same person several years in a row with the same shield), who always claim "But it's legal at home", at which point we point to the Society Armor Standards B.1

Society Armor Standards wrote:Shields shall be edged with leather or other padding, or constructed in such a way as to minimize the damage to rattan weapons or other fighters.

and then tell them that if they've been allowed to use it at home, I'd like to meet their marshal so I can have their warrant pulled by their KEM (who is often at one or both of these events); they always back down at that point, of course.

Alcyoneus wrote:There are no non-contact archers in Calontir. I use an xbow, and wear full gauntlets because if you get close, I am grabbing my 9' spear, or GS, and beating you down.

Those are my 'back-up' weapons.

Similar to what I do, though I use a yumi, and usually have my katana as back-up, which often suffices.

it may provide some insite to talk to experianced archery marshals or those that do a lot of target shooting at clubs.

the discription of a bow drasticly failing can be quite explicit.

expecialy if its an expencive bow thats faily new.