The Armour Archive

Being a bit of an enthusiast it pisses me off when people come up to me and say negative stuff about I.33, like how it is poor with regards to fighting technique. I shrug it off without much argument and keep looking at what people have interpreted the techniques to mean. However, as I get more and more into the system I'm taking basic techniques I think have promise and questioning ones that look way too complicated to pull off unless your opponent is a willful partner in a drill exercise.

For example, if you are familiar with I.33 and I know there are several here who are, take the technique of I beleive one of the deceptions, where you encircle both of your opponents arms with your own sword arm and proceed to pull them offbalance. This seems really overcomplicated to me and a small percentage chance of pulling this off. Has anyone ever done this in the assault/freeplay if you know the move I am talking about?

I think it is healthy to question all things and just because this text is 700(?) odd years old doesnt mean the authors of this text were masters of their art.

Just some thoughts.

I don't particularly like the grapple with the sword arm (see it here: http://freywild.ch/i33/i33cen.html pages 35-36)
because if you fail to grapple his buckler arm then he will hammer the back of your head. This is, in my opinion, a very aggressive gambit that strongly commits you. That said, I don't think it's unlikely. If you are in the position depicted at the top of page 35 and you (the priest, on the right with the hanging guard) enter and raise your sword (as is depicted elsewhere in the manuscript) then it becomes very easy to fold the elbow of your sword arm over his arms. The key is to get close and I think the best way to do this is to excute your entry as a shield punch to his face. This will have the additional benefit of stunning him and making it less likely that he will get his buckler arm free.

I'll let you know how it works in freeplay.

jester wrote:
(SNIP)

The key is to get close and I think the best way to do this is to excute your entry as a shield punch to his face. This will have the additional benefit of stunning him and making it less likely that he will get his buckler arm free.

I'll let you know how it works in freeplay.

Ow. I don't wanna play with you!

Just kidding! I've taken occasional buckler shots to the face of my rapier helmet in VERY non-SCA WMA stuff. The "pulled" buckler bashes let me know quite well that I would not be a "functioning combatant" for at LEAST a few seconds after that happens sans-helmet.

I.33 is still hard to interpret. Anyone got a spare time machine? Oh, and a language translator, too!

Kevin O'Shaughnessy

Like any other technique, encircling the arms requires the correct situation. You can't force the opportunity, but it definitely doesn't require a willing partner to accomplish. Your sword is underbound which is disadvantageous for you. To change the play to your advantage you must transfer his bind to your buckler and enter before he can follow his attack through.

As your sword hand is now free but in a difficult position to form a thrust or cut, you must apply available alternatives. The priest demonstrates generosity by not smashing the scholar's teeth with his pommel but instead slips the pommel over the scholar's arms. After enveloping his arms, the priest turns counterclockwise drawing the scholar off balance. Sounds complicated? Well yes. Fencing is an art, it takes practice and timing.

To my experience, what makes the play work is the scholar's willingness to create a strong overbind to his right. As this is the best place for him to be, he will often go there. The priest has to be sensitive to the bind and poised to enter. He cannot retreat in this play. These things happen in bouting. It isn't easy to keep perfect distance when playing at speed. The concept here is to grapple once the swords are bound out of the play. Same thing with the play on pages 23 & 24 of MS I.33.

Without grappling, a great deal of medieval combat is overlooked or at best misunderstood. I don't pretend to be a scholar of this manuscript but the principles demonstrated within are perfectly in line with later works, both German and Italian. Its dead sexy stuff to play with. The bonus is that it may be done with or without harness. It just doesn't work well with sticks (rattan or hickory) because you can't feel what your companion is doing from the bind. Still, its worth exploring as there are many valuable lessons that can be transferred to SCA sword and board by a clever student.

Have fun!!

For truly weird technique check out page 18. The text makes reference to countering the scholar's actions by going under the arm. Always puzzled me how the priest was going to get to the 1st Ward. But there is an alternate explanation, broad as daylight, in the Jorg Wilhalm manuscript. See it here: http://guerriers-avalon.ovh.org/wilhalm.html in the sequence illustrated by images 203v (the durchtreten, compare with page 18 - upper) and 204r (with the sword under the arm). It appears that the priest (or the scholar for the I.33 says that either can execute the actions) executes a schutzen, sweeping the scholars sword down and to the right in a counter-clockwise motion[Edit: or perhaps does this after his sword has been swept in a clockwise motion to his right by the scholar]. From there he folds his right elbow over the scholar's arms (folding his own sword under his arm in the process) and snaking his left arm around the scholar's torso as his right foot passes behind the scholar's legs. A mess to write, but it makes sense to me because it fits perfectly into the posta lungha -> porta di ferro sequence I have internalized in my Fiore studies.

Kevin O'Shaughnessy wrote:

jester wrote:

I.33 is still hard to interpret. Anyone got a spare time machine? Oh, and a language translator, too!

Kevin O'Shaughnessy

There are excellent transcription/translation and interpretation books available as a package deal at Chivary Bookshelf. Not a big investment for a couple good resources to study period material. And no wait for a time machine to be built....

PS. John, you're a violent guy! Stunning the scholar with a shield knock to the face will put your left foot in farther. How do you do the turn counterclockwise after enveloping his arms? It seems you'd have to pass your right foot all the way around your left. Kinda tough if the left is forward, no?

Please let me know how it plays out when you try it at practice. Always looking for another point of view.

Cheers!

Kel Rekuta wrote:

Kevin O'Shaughnessy wrote:

jester wrote:

I.33 is still hard to interpret. Anyone got a spare time machine? Oh, and a language translator, too!

Kevin O'Shaughnessy

There are excellent transcription/translation and interpretation books available as a package deal at Chivary Bookshelf. Not a big investment for a couple good resources to study period material. And no wait for a time machine to be built....

PS. John, you're a violent guy! Stunning the scholar with a shield knock to the face will put your left foot in farther. How do you do the turn counterclockwise after enveloping his arms? It seems you'd have to pass your right foot all the way around your left. Kinda tough if the left is forward, no?

Please let me know how it plays out when you try it at practice. Always looking for another point of view.

Cheers!

I don't advace the left foot. I do a deep accressare so that my right foot is advanced. To me the sequence works like this:

I am underbound on the left, right foot forward. I drop my point and lift my pommel to protect my head as I enter in.

I enter in with a deep accressare (advancing my right foot). The mnemonic (from SCA training) is "step on his balls". My buckler protects my hand and I try to put both the buckler and my sword hand into the opponent's face.

I fold my right elbow over his arm. I find that mnemonic trick very important. If I try to move the sword, the technique doesn't work, even in practice with a willing partner. If I forget about my sword and move my elbow it works like a charm. I internalize this by picturing an elbow strike to my opponent's face. This also makes the counter-clockwise pivot (a volta stabile) an integral part of the action. I find that I slip in a small accressare as I do the elbow strike, forward and to my left.

In practice this has worked really well. The opponent is off balanced, potentially stunned (repeatedly), and you are working inside his guard. We haven't been set up with the safety equipment to try this in free play.

I have used the sword-arm grapple in free play, and I've come to some conclusions about it.

1. Aggression. In my experience, this is the single most needed factor in unarmoured swordplay. Kill the other guy. Now. In practice, if you do this grapple aggressively (and of course, you don't try it until the correct position presents itself), even if it doesn't work, you'll still be in a position to fight, usually with your opponent trying to regain his balance to your right.

2. As the manual says, watch his buckler for a shield-bind, and adjust your approach accordingly.

3. The instant you have the sword arm around your opponent's arms, execute a hip throw. You may even want to start the throw before you have the grapple, by starting to push your hips toward his. This way, even if he's quick enough to make you miss his arms, you'll 'butt-check' him far enough from you to regain a ward.

jester wrote:
I don't advace the left foot. I do a deep accressare so that my right foot is advanced. To me the sequence works like this:

I am underbound on the left, right foot forward. I drop my point and lift my pommel to protect my head as I enter in.

I enter in with a deep accressare (advancing my right foot). The mnemonic (from SCA training) is "step on his balls". My buckler protects my hand and I try to put both the buckler and my sword hand into the opponent's face.

I fold my right elbow over his arm. I find that mnemonic trick very important. If I try to move the sword, the technique doesn't work, even in practice with a willing partner. If I forget about my sword and move my elbow it works like a charm. I internalize this by picturing an elbow strike to my opponent's face. This also makes the counter-clockwise pivot (a volta stabile) an integral part of the action. I find that I slip in a small accressare as I do the elbow strike, forward and to my left.

In practice this has worked really well. The opponent is off balanced, potentially stunned (repeatedly), and you are working inside his guard. We haven't been set up with the safety equipment to try this in free play.

Interesting! You begin this description with what appears to be less distance between the players at the bind. Either that or you can do one hell of a deeper acressare than I can manage! That's why I assumed your left leg was forward. I see how your interpretation plays out and I like it. Thanks for detailing it. I am curious how your buckler covers his blade after you leave it to strike his face with both hands. Just taking advantage of the vor?

Mine is a little different being at wider distance. I leave my blade down, soft in the bind to keep him interested while I cover his blade and buckler with my buckler. Passing forward with the right foot into the centre space, is as you suggest, stepping onhis balls? If so, I drop my pommel over his wrists much like you drop your elbow over his elbows. It turns out pretty much as you say, except my blade circles over his buckler and sword creating a temporary safety if he pulls up. (And since Murphy is my God, he almost always does.) All this happens while turning to the left with volta stabile. My sword arm encircles both of his drawing his wrists to my chest allowing my buckler to drop out of the way to my left inside. Momentum from my volta drags him off balance.

Pretty wordy for something that happens in three fencing times... Bind/cover > enter/wrap > turn/drag

Aside from slight timing and hand position issues, I think we're on the same track. The face attack from closer distance is quite a deal closer. No one will give a moment's thought to cutting you when he sees a buckler zooming up his face. Great stuff! I will play that one out soon....

"This seems really overcomplicated to me and a small percentage chance of pulling this off. Has anyone ever done this in the assault/freeplay if you know the move I am talking about? :"

To answer the basic question does a double armbar work?

Absolutely, it's in BJJ and we also teach it as a weapon retention technique in PPCT. You can break elbows like that. It's also fairly easy to throw from there

Murdock wrote:we also teach it as a weapon retention technique in PPCT. You can break elbows like that. It's also fairly easy to throw from there

What is PPCT? Murdock dude, we gotta hang out sometime and mess around with this stuff.
-Mag

PPCT

Is pressure point control tactics, it is a series of techniques desingned to maximized officer safety when apprehending suspects. It covers weapons retention, tactical hand cuffing, escort and offednder control techniques as well as a limited number of offensive techinques.

It also teaches a graduated level of force application philosphy called the "force continum". It sets guidelines on what types of action an officer may take when presented with a particular level of resistance or non compliance.

I got instructor certified several months ago.

I have pulled this off a number of times. For me it usually happens as I traverse to my left as Im cutting down to my opponents right wrist or the right side of his head. If he parrys that the result means that our hilts are usually quite close together (my traverse has put me in close at grappling range on my opponents right). From this bind its very simple and quick for me to kind of hook my pommel around his guard as I wrap both arms. At the same time I can either ram my hips into his to get him off balance for the throw back over my knee or give him a nice buckler smash to the face. I dont think its on of those things you can just plan from the begining but if you find yourself in a tight hilt to hilt bind on his right side, you are in prime position to pull this off.

Oh and to all the I.33 naysayers... they are full of crap! To the people that know how to do it, this stuff is very vicious, very fast and very effective.