The Armour Archive

The following is personal opinion, so feel free to tell me I'm completely wrong. And I might well be.

From what I've seen, the rattan combat community is largely done with significant experimentation. Perhaps it's just a phase in an ongoing cycle, but the push is for standardization and retrenchment. While the rattan community refines an existing rule set I see people in the rapier community discussing ways of pushing the boundaries of their study. They talk about ways to move away from foils and even schlagers to blades that are more accurate representations/recreations of period weapons. They talk about ways to bring their rules for competitive combat closer to simulating actual conditions. They talk about pushing their studies of historical manuals ever earlier. Not everyone, and certainly they disagree in some areas. But it seems that a portion of the folks who are movers and shakers in the rapier community at the Society level talk seriously about these ideas and work, slowly, to make them happen.

I hear talk about how cut and thrust combat (the re-tooled Sidesword program) will eventually allow simulation of some forms of combat going back as early as 1300. The marshallate wants nothing to do with period combat studies (gladly turning that over to the A&S community, and thank heavens for that in my opinion). Jousting? Knights were involved but it's an equestrian activity at heart; and the equestrians keep submitting bids to get out from under the marshallate (and I believe the marshallate supported at least one of those bids).

Rattan combat, armored combat if you prefer, is the flagship martial activity of the SCA. And it is perhaps unfair to compare growth and experimentation in activities that are, at best, 1/3 the age of rattan combat (i.e. they are going through rapid early growth that rattan combat once went through). And it is also true that the armored combat community continues to make strides in appearance and some folks are really pushing some serious study of chivalry. But it seems that much of the rattan community is content with things the way they are and have no further desire to innovate.

Just my thoughts.

Personally, I think that the SCA armoured combat rules are great, with the following exceptions:

1. Kneeling and 'removing' arms. It's pointless. It's LARPish.
2. No counted blows (usually). This would work perfectly to help weed out the 'lucky shot' factor, and promote the use of more than one 'signature shot'. It would also go great with the removal of kneeling, taking a leg or arm shot as a kill shot (since it would be).

Orazio wrote:Personally, I think that the SCA armoured combat rules are great, with the following exceptions:

Actually I think the rules are pretty darn good. From a safety stand-point alone the rules have been remarkably succesful and they are sufficiently common-sense based that folks can get on the field in a very short time. 12,000 authorized armored combat participants (an estimate the SEM provided a few years back) is pretty good testimony to the effectivness of our rules.

But the marshallate (the people in charge of martial activity within the SCA) seems to have little interest in doing anything but refining those rules.

"1. Kneeling and 'removing' arms. It's pointless. It's LARPish.
2. No counted blows (usually). This would work perfectly to help weed out the 'lucky shot' factor, and promote the use of more than one 'signature shot'. It would also go great with the removal of kneeling, taking a leg or arm shot as a kill shot (since it would be). "

Isn't that pretty much the same point?

But thats not gonna happen because too many people count on the rules as they are to win fights in a way they are comfortable with.

The single easiest thing we could do to dramatically improve the historical accuracy of our fighting and solve a host of other problems with no saftey rules or armour requirement changes is to change to a counted blows standard instead of the moronic looking "acted wounds" simulation we have now.

But no matter how much it makes sense, no matter how much more accurate for _all_ periods of armoured fighting it is, no matter how much it saves knees, gett rid of problems like "weaither to yeild advantage" " cork screwing" ect, no matter how much better it looks, we will not change due to the SCA trump arguement....

"We always duned it dat way" (with accompaning drool and blank stare)

We had a king's champion tourney that was 3 counted blows, no acted wounds. It was greatly popular. I'd like to see more of it, that's for sure. Change is slow, but I think it's cool that we do have people who WANT change.

Although I haven't actually fought in the SCA, I'm getting my gear together and have seen a few fights. Personally I think counted blows is a much better idea than acted wounds(although this can be fun sometimes). Because no matter what you aren't going to act the wound like it's actually a wound. It also tends to look silly sometimes. I think combat should be geared towards recreating tournaments, as it is much more practical and easier to recreate than "actual combat". We could even use a "weighted" point system with blows to vital spots counting more points than blows to extremities.
Just my thoughts on what I'm looking forward to when I finally hit the field.

I prefer the counted blows routine myself (see my challenge to all baronial champions or their representatives).

To be honest, in northern Atlantia, we practice this way anyway. It's wrong for the game, but at practices we generally reset after a leg blow. (Mostly because the indoor sites we use don't allow people to kneel in armor.)

No one falls down in tournaments when they're "killed". They just call "good" and walk off.

Why not just say we're trying our best to recreate period tournaments with weapons of peace / wooden batons and we're countng blows - even if it's to the first blow?

At least, thank God, I've never seen anyone hop on one foot instead of kneeling after a leg shot...

I don't see a need to do much more than refine current SCA heavy rules as they work well for what thye are designed for- which in my opinion is to create a reasonably safe martial sport that allows participants to explore/experience ideas about medieval martial culture.

I do think knee fighting will eventually go away though but not for at least 10yrs.

The fact that the counted blows format for single combats is becoming more common -and with the SCA's blessing- proves that we are moving in the right direction.
The original Tournament Companies had the right idea. More people should worry about their kit and gear, as opposed to worrying about combat styles that may never be safe enough to try with the intensity that we are all addicted to.
We still suck in the presentation department.

A divergence or schism might happen in SCA fighting.

One group might head toward “historically as close as we can get skills (HAC)â€Â

"At least, thank God, I've never seen anyone hop on one foot instead of kneeling after a leg shot...
_________________
Kevin of Thornbury, OP "

Man, I hadnt thought of this in a while. Back when I lived in Pittsburgh there was this guy that did that. We all called him the Suzuki Samurai because he'd roll when you ran into him. Gawd that was just rediculous.

Aaron wrote:A divergence or schism might happen in SCA fighting.

The divergence has been occuring for a while and in a haphazard manner. It's just doesn't affect the SCA that much, if at all. The people interested in HAC, being a very small minority, have been going to other organizations and, frequently, continuing their SCA participation. Let's face it, our fighting, exactly as it is right now, is tremendous fun. But I was flat out told by a KEM, in regards to an activity almost exactly like the current Period Combat Studies proposal, that such activity had no place in the SCA and I should find another organization to play in. [EDIT TO ADD: I should note that my experience is just that, my experience. I have heard from other folks in other kingdoms that this attitude exists there. Still other folks have said that their kingdoms embrace such activity. YMMV]

Aaron wrote:It has been brought up to me that the HAC might be draining from the AB and eroding War Fighting skills. If we erode the war fighting skills of the kingdom, are we committing treason by doing Pas de Arms, jousting, etc…?

Anybody that makes this suggestion, that conflates the local branch of a corporation with an imaginary kingdom and suggests that people engaging in activities the corporation was designed to support is "committing treason" needs to take a step back from our game and get back in touch with reality.

I like counted blows better my self.

"We still suck in the presentation department."

Whats this "we" stuff white boy?



You going to Border Raids V?

jester wrote:Let's face it, our fighting, exactly as it is right now, is tremendous fun.

Yep!

-Aaron

Kevin wrote:At least, thank God, I've never seen anyone hop on one foot instead of kneeling after a leg shot...

It is permissable.

I've seen Sir Kief in Ansteorra hop around all over the place! (but he only has one leg;-) )

Alcyoneus wrote:

Kevin wrote:At least, thank God, I've never seen anyone hop on one foot instead of kneeling after a leg shot...

It is permissable.

I've seen Sir Kief in Ansteorra hop around all over the place! (but he only has one leg;-) )

Oh, I didn't say it wasn't permissable... I just think it's like two cowboys eating pudding.

And while I haven't met Sir Kief, I have seen him in a Rose tourney at Gulf Wars. (I think my last GW was IX? X?) I have no issues with him.

Didn't we discuss this exact same subject about 3 or 4 months ago?

Vebrand

I think you will see the influence of specialized subgroups making the biggest impact on the SCA fighting culture. I saw this influence emerge with the rise of multiple 14th century Pas d'Arms group in Caid and the West during the 90's. I am referring to groups like the Company of Saynte George, Sons of Lorelei, La Famila and others that support the Pas sub-events and also promote more authentic appearing camps. If you were to visit one of these Pas d'Arms I wager you would see some of the most authentic-looking combat pageantry currently in the SCA.

Such groups are great at the ethic of inspiration by deeds. You view one of these Pas and you cannot fail to be impressed. I think there is influence there and the influence is spreading.

I believe the same same thing could happen with regards to Early Period personna in the SCA by starting Homeric Spear Duels and other such things as sub-events at SCA Wars---complete with appropriate period pegeantry.

Well, that's my 2 groats...

Cheers,
Tim

Vebrand wrote:Didn't we discuss this exact same subject about 3 or 4 months ago?

Vebrand

Your memory is better than you think. We discussed this subject 3 years ago, and 2 years ago. I started both of those threads. I am trying to track opinions over the course of several years. (I am also attempting to track the number of authorized combatants to see if Rapier is experiencing greater growth than Rattan.)

You can see those threads at:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=12276
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=12449

Interestingly, while people have continued to claim that the Rattan/Armored community is open to change and experimentation, I haven't seen any. Possibly this is because such discussion in the Armored community tends to take place on lists limited to marshals or members of the Chivalry; so I wouldn't be aware of it. What efforts I have seen have been limited to refinement of the existing rule-set and an emphasis on improving appearance.

The question is what do you consider growth? What standard are you using that determines the growth.

The fact that Pas de Arms are and counted blow tourneys are becoming more popular is that growth?

Do you consider that half-swording is growth or not?

Do you consider the standards of apperance in several kingdoms growth or not?

It seems you may be looking at growth form your point of veiw and thus the growth can only be measured by your own personal scale varied on what you consider growth.

Vebrand

I think the counted blow scenario for tourneys is step in the right direction.
I certainly prefer them.

As to the rattan vs rapier community, Something of note - The rapier community grows from two sources - those new to the SCA and previously rattan fighters who can no longer (for health reasons) withstand the rigors of heavy combat. It is possible that such a source for the influx has an impact on the more "forward thinking" of the rapiers vs the rattans.

jester wrote:so feel free to tell me I'm completely wrong.

Jester, you are just completely wrong.
But not about this...

Vebrand wrote:The question is what do you consider growth? What standard are you using that determines the growth.

The fact that Pas de Arms are and counted blow tourneys are becoming more popular is that growth?

Do you consider that half-swording is growth or not?

Do you consider the standards of apperance in several kingdoms growth or not?

It seems you may be looking at growth form your point of veiw and thus the growth can only be measured by your own personal scale varied on what you consider growth.

Vebrand

I have only my personal scale to work with, and I make no claim that it is correct. I look at what I see and tell you what I think it means.

The move towards events that more closely model examples from within our time period is nice. The strides being made in appearance are nice. Halfswording is an interesting experiment that a fair number of people fought for years to convince the Society to try. But they are, ultimately, refinements. The marshallate is charged with responsibility for all martial arts activities in the Society yet it concentrates on one area and ignores the growth occuring in other areas. Worse, there is a perception (right or wrong) among some of the adherents of those other activities that the marshallate actively hinders the growth of those activities out of bigotry. They view the marshallate as an adversary to be overcome.

So, from my point of view I don't see rattan combat doing anything particularly new or bold. I could well be wrong.

Future of fighting in the SCA?
More of the same.

More of the masses following the simple and totally SCAdian rule set quite happily.

More of the splinter groups tweaking the rules to fit their fancy at pocket and whim tourneys, and acquiescing to the masses for big events.



MHO

"I believe the same same thing could happen with regards to Early Period personna in the SCA by starting Homeric Spear Duels and other such things as sub-events at SCA Wars---complete with appropriate period pegeantry."

Hmmm odd that the "early period" personas aren't doing that.

Wonder why?

Well i actually don't wonder why, i think i know why but thats another thread.

As an aside "Early period" is an awful catch all Scadian term. EP seems to mean anytime before "those poofters over there". Norsemen? Not EP they're low medieval, as are Normans and Anglo Saxons. Greek Hoplites? Maybe but thats the Classical period. Romans? Which era Republian? Imperial? Christianized? There are those that do personas from those historical eras well.

Apparently "early period" is an odd time when warriors wore weight belts and used enormous oval centergripped shields and fought in only in double elimination lists. They also seem to travel alot and end up wearng buzubands with lamalar with a spagenhelm and shovel greaves, and tunics wih lots of knot work and amber neclaces and harness boots. Apprently to confuse their enimies as to their country of origin and time of their life.

If you do a Homeric sper dule thats just the Greco Roman personas, a Humalgang (sp?) thats just the Norse, and so on. So you'd end up with most "EP" personas left out. BUT the point is moot since most EP personas would not fight in what we think of as lists anyway.

Murdock wrote:"I believe the same same thing could happen with regards to Early Period personna in the SCA by starting Homeric Spear Duels and other such things as sub-events at SCA Wars---complete with appropriate period pegeantry."

Hmmm odd that the "early period" personas aren't doing that.

Wonder why?

Well i actually don't wonder why, i think i know why but thats another thread.

As an aside "Early period" is an awful catch all Scadian term. EP seems to mean anytime before "those poofters over there". Norsemen? Not EP they're low medieval, as are Normans and Anglo Saxons. Greek Hoplites? Maybe but thats the Classical period. Romans? Which era Republian? Imperial? Christianized? There are those that do personas from those historical eras well.

Apparently "early period" is an odd time when warriors wore weight belts and used enormous oval centergripped shields and fought in only in double elimination lists. They also seem to travel alot and end up wearng buzubands with lamalar with a spagenhelm and shovel greaves, and tunics wih lots of knot work and amber neclaces and harness boots. Apprently to confuse their enimies as to their country of origin and time of their life.

If you do a Homeric sper dule thats just the Greco Roman personas, a Humalgang (sp?) thats just the Norse, and so on. So you'd end up with most "EP" personas left out. BUT the point is moot since most EP personas would not fight in what we think of as lists anyway.

Yeah I was talking about Ancient Greek and related cultures; from Mycenaean times through Classical. So, a Pas d'Arms formatted as an Illiad themed duel, within the rules of the SCA, with attendant pomp, circumstance and pageantry. This could also include Roman type gladatorial combat---done within SCA rules.

So when I call this "Early" with regards to SCA, should I be saying "Ancient" instead?

Cheers,
Tim

HMMMMMM................ good food for thought.


Let me see. So by your view rattan combat has not changed because the basic rules are not changing. It many ways this is true. From one who started playing in 1983 rattan combat has greatly changed. Yes the basics are still the same but the look, feel, and type of combat has greatly changed.

Now I could say the basic rules for rapier are the same as they were 10 years ago. Since the basic rules are the same and any changes, to borrow a phrase, are refinements. Thus rapier is just as stagnant as heavy combat.

The biggest thing I see on this thread and other like it is the "I want it my way now" or "the SCA must change now". From people who are well meaning but don't have the wish to work in the system to make the changes so they sit on the sideline and throw bombs. I have seen the changes over the years and if you go back just 10 years you will be amazed how far SCA combat (rapier, seige, and heavy) have come along the historical lines. Go back 20 years and many of you would be throwing a fit about how wrong everything is. No the SCA is not going to change overnight but it is changing and being molded by people on a daily basis.

Those who held the rare Pas in the early 90s were the ones who started people seeing things other than a standard tourney and standard formats. The push for half-swording is only a few years old yet people wanted it to happen over night. They did not want to wait for it to be vetted and written in a way to work with the SCA system. Instead I saw many who wanted the SCA to change to their way.

Those people like Asbjorn who are blazing a path with historical combat are the ones who will make the changes because they see how to work those tourneys with the SCA context. They will also be the ones 20 yrs from now that the new guys are talking about when they say “those old guys are stagnant and won't change, and heavy fighting is not moving forwardâ€Â

Timothy_D_Finkas wrote:Yeah I was talking about Ancient Greek and related cultures; from Mycenaean times through Classical. So, a Pas d'Arms formatted as an Illiad themed duel, within the rules of the SCA, with attendant pomp, circumstance and pageantry. This could also include Roman type gladatorial combat---done within SCA rules.

So when I call this "Early" with regards to SCA, should I be saying "Ancient" instead?

Cheers,
Tim

Probably the best bet would be to be more precise in wording in general.

The whole SCA combat arena would benefit from it.

Blanket terms when describing instances of combat whatever the time period can be problematic. Better a 14th century German judicial duel, a 10th century Icelandic holmgang, or a skirmish in 5th century Brittian.

But our basic culture commits the most egregious violation. What the SCA describes on a weekly basis as a tournament does not particularly resemble any instance of combat labeled as such in period of time we draw from.

I was purposefully calling for a somewhat narrower timeframe to be sure, but to put too fine a point on something like this within the SCA context COULD make be an event of ONE PERSON. My thought is better to be an ancient omnibus at start, then refine as energy and attention is gained.

Tim

Orazio wrote:Personally, I think that the SCA armoured combat rules are great, with the following exceptions:

1. Kneeling and 'removing' arms. It's pointless. It's LARPish.
2. No counted blows (usually). This would work perfectly to help weed out the 'lucky shot' factor, and promote the use of more than one 'signature shot'. It would also go great with the removal of kneeling, taking a leg or arm shot as a kill shot (since it would be).

YES!!! If there were only two things to get rid of in SCA combat I would call for these to go first.

jester wrote:

Orazio wrote:Personally, I think that the SCA armoured combat rules are great, with the following exceptions:

Actually I think the rules are pretty darn good. From a safety stand-point alone the rules have been remarkably succesful and they are sufficiently common-sense based that folks can get on the field in a very short time. 12,000 authorized armored combat participants (an estimate the SEM provided a few years back) is pretty good testimony to the effectivness of our rules.

But the marshallate (the people in charge of martial activity within the SCA) seems to have little interest in doing anything but refining those rules.

Yup. And well stated too. There IS a synergy to maintaining the status quo or only making small changes. It is what most want. Not just the Chiv or the marshallate.

Learning and practicing the theoretical interpretations of medieval texts is NOT the same as fighting tournaments with arms of peace. Even when we do more "documentable" moves in the context of our combat, it becomes something else than fighting tournaments with arms of peace. We then mix the documentable move with the undocumentable move, which poisons the feel of *totally accurate and documentable* activity that some are yearning for. It really can't be both things and satisfy those who are worried about the opinions of scholars. When I am fighting with arms of peace in deeds of arms on foot, I do NOT care about the opinions of scholars. I am studying an entirely different aspect of medieval martial culture- combat as knightly sport. NOT modern sport- but medieval sport. If I want to work some period moves into my regular fighting experience, thats fine, but the fact that I am not actually trying to kill people with sharp weapons changes what I am doing into something else. I would not use moves that kill in tournaments, this would damage my reputation and possibly get me into serious trouble (in the period context.)
It's all about what we are trying to do.
-V

"Yeah I was talking about Ancient Greek and related cultures; from Mycenaean times through Classical. So, a Pas d'Arms formatted as an Illiad themed duel, within the rules of the SCA, with attendant pomp, circumstance and pageantry. This could also include Roman type gladatorial combat---done within SCA rules"

Now that would be neat, they hald a Red Tower like that once.

but "early period" is just another vague amorphous SCA term.

Murdock wrote:"Yeah I was talking about Ancient Greek and related cultures; from Mycenaean times through Classical. So, a Pas d'Arms formatted as an Illiad themed duel, within the rules of the SCA, with attendant pomp, circumstance and pageantry. This could also include Roman type gladatorial combat---done within SCA rules"

That would be cool. Small Gray Bear hosted a Pas de Arms during a Kingdom A&S in which you had to challenge the greek Gods in combat with chosen weapons. I was Hades and the matched weapon was poleaxe

Vebrand