High Fidelity Medieval Combat Rules

[Jehan de Pelham]

Russ: Agreed. I had the experience of grappling with someone not in armor who had chosen to act drunkenly and start a fight a few years ago, and I look back on it fondly now that nothing has come of it and he wasn't seriously hurt. The fellow had lost before it even started; there are so many incidental movements in harness which can be harmful to someone not in harness that it isn't funny.

Here is a question that we haven't really discussed: How do the men at arms present here feel about the customs of combat that essentially make the chivalric combats either counted blows, judged by the King of Arms, or timed, or until someone touches the ground with something other than their feet, or until the King of Arms throws down his baton and says "Enough" or some other variation?

To everyone else: Do you see serious mental or cultural blocks to accepting this sort of combat?

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Russ Mitchell]

Ours was "enough" or acclaim. Usually "enough." It keeps the atmosphere VERY friendly.

[Murdock]

dude i'd totaly go



For those miltary portrayls that are popular and base, perhaps shooting at the butts??? Or drills with the bill and pike???


i dunno. Just throwing that out there.

[Kel Rekuta]

Well, here is what I think: I think that a tipping point on this sort of thing is near. Someone has to just lay it on the line and make something happen. Look at the history and the current state of "playing medieval." And let's be blunt.

The SCA does a great job of erecting a big tent and those who do chivalric combat within the framework of the SCA really capture a certain spirit of non-cooperative full speed striking, but there are other deficiencies. I say that there is true and deep worth in the give and take of hard blows under the SCA Rules of the Lists.

***** snipped for relevance

WMA practicioners are technical experts, book readers and deep thinkers, practicioners of the technical and even applied aspects of medieval martial arts, but much of their activity, though of very great merit, lacks soul. It doesn't touch the aesthetic.

This might explain the lack of response to your question.
Please explain why students of historical martial arts should be interested in expending resources of time and material to present an "aesthetic" portrayal to your satisfaction? Your hobby is not our hobby. The soul of historical martial arts IMHO, is uncovering facets of daily life based on the treatises that survive, from many masters.

Conversely, why do you spend such an inordinate effort and expense accumulating the accessories appropriate for the portrayal of a 14thC gentleman but are disinterested in the fighting techniques of the period? You clearly have a solid grasp of the material culture and I suspect, a better grasp of chivalric literature than I've managed in almost thirty years of study. But why such distain for the students of documented techniques and concepts of personal combat recorded in period treatises? I would think these studies are more relevant than the cut and colour of your garments, the chair you recline in, the pavillion you live in so many weekends each year because fighting skills reflect prowess. Am I wrong? Or is it all about the bling?:? The soul you seek is empty to me but I will not ridicule or hinder your pursuit of it.

John, I played SCA for 23 years. I've still got the toys, the clothes and a few parchments from my time there. They aren't much use in the study of historical martial arts. (actually, the shoes are... ) However, the trappings are extremely useful when demonstrating HEMA to the public. Not all of our students have them but each is encouraged to obtain appropriate garments, at least. The "aesthetic" lends credibility. I'm sure you'll agree.

Finally, I'm at a loss as to why you want to include grappling in a plaisance combat at such an event. It is very risky even for well trained combatants. More importantly, it violates the friendly intent a plaisance combat implies. I like your idea of counted blows with rebated weapons, perhaps including thrusts provided combatants are familiar with each other and that both have appropriate visors and mail reinforcement to their harness.

We have several years of experience with full speed un-choregraphed, respectful but unco-operative combat within AEMMA. We generally fight a plaisance because we are friends. When we fight a' outrance there is no malice because we are friends. Its just that one of us will go down or yield. I would not dream of inflicting that on someone I did not know accepted the risk and trusted their safety to my hands, as I do to them. You can't develop that five minutes before you meet someone on the field. Please don't inflict that risk on people interested in exploring beyond SCA Rule of the List. Let them get a little experience with steel in a familiar format like a counted blows Pas.

Its very, very late and I should try to sleep now.
The soapbox is now available..

[Jehan de Pelham]

I need to respond more in-depth, but let me first express my regret that my perception of the different ways to approach medieval combat has offended you.

I'll respond more later, and I'll provide answers hopefully to your satisfaction.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Jehan de Pelham]

Posted in Interpretive Re-Creation as a new topic.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=52006

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Halvgrimr]

Jehan

One more piece of friendly advice from someone who has done what your trying to do (albeit a different time frame)

I know you are a gentlemen, you've proven that time and again, but I wouldn't be to concerned with 'stepping on the toes' of others.

I mean no offense to anyone but if you carry thru with this, its clearly you doing all the planning and coordinating so its really your show and you set the tone of the event.

You do not have to cater to everyone's needs, especially folks that in reality probably wont even make it to the event, and while this is hard to figure out at first (especially when your doing a nation wide event) you will begin to get a feel for people and their interest soon enough.

I was hounded relentlessly in the beginning stages of TFBO.

I wanted as many folks and groups to come as possible.
Then the 'special requests' started flowing in.

"we think this should happen"
"we wont come unless we are excluded from rule X"
"we don't like so and so therefore we wont come unless they are banned from the event"
"our egos are much to big to have to cowtow to someone else's rules, so unless ours are used, we aren't coming"
"We aren't coming because you suck because you wont change X"

I felt real bad at first.
I tried to figure out how to make everyone happy.
I soon found that this was impossible.

So this is what I did.

1) We decide what we (Norsa) wanted to do.
2) We made as much of this public as we could, a year a head of time in some cases. In our opinion this left no room for 'I didn't know X' to be a problem at the event.
3) We announced the event and its standards publicly, to as wide an audience as we could. In doing so we said "We really hope yall can join us but we understand the not everyone will be pleased with the standards we have layed out. Its regrettable but we understand.
4) Even after this we tried to encourage all the folks that had issues to come out and give it a chance (some did, some didn't)
5) Come event time we enforced everything we said we would.
6) We tried to host an event that would be one that folks would remember and come back to next time.

Ya know what?
Folks came
Folks came from 14 different states (and from across the pond)
Folks came and had a good time.
Folks came and had a damned good time
Folks said they would come back again.
Folks came that didn’t want to leave!

So in the end we meet the only 2 goals we set.
1) to have a memorable event
2) to have an event folks would want to return to

Its was a stressful road but it was well worth it in the end IMO.

Remember, your the boss.
Take and ask for advice, but in the end its your show, do what you think is best, not what some goob you have never meet (and probably never will meet) thinks is best.

You seem to have a good head on your shoulders so I think you will do well once you get past the overwhelming feeling that planning this sort of event can induce.

Halv

ps: remember, its your circus, your the ringmaster, everyone else is a crazy little circus freak:)

[Doug Confere]

I study WMA and also history to do an accurate portrayal. I feel that if I'm going to study a culture and represent a man who would know how to fight, I should know how to fight. I feel it goes both ways. Living Historians should study the manuals if htey want to do a good portrayal, and the martial artists should care about the culture they're learning from and I think it's a good thing for them to study that culture.

Doug

[knitebee]

After much reading (This and the relating post make for a short book) and far more thought it occurs to me. Unless someone qualified and willing steps forward to teach and over see combat why not restrict combat to between those of an individual camp. Let me explain; First of we are talking about the potential of a west coast LH event that has never been before there for hold back the riegns a little and dont jump to far into the deep end of the pool.
If there was an open eric for fighting to take place in that can be used by any of the groups/companys attending it would
1. Keep combat between those of simular training and back ground.
2. Give all attendies a taste of some differnt potential rule sets for the event as a whole to work twards in the future.

As such I'd propose that any and all such company that attend and want to present combat have to supply there own marshel for both there fighters and the viewers safety. If some one outside a company wanted to spend the time through the week to train with and be autherized by the company to compete on the field with them then so be it.

This is not a longterm solution but a starting place that could give a far better road map to the future of combat in such an event.

I know that for myself, I'm trained with rebate blades but under a restrictive rule set of my group that could lead to potential issues and safety concerns if I was just randomly set ont eh field with others of other training and rule sets. There are things that aren't allowed within my rule set that I therefor dont have to watch for or counter that could easly happen.

Besides as has been stated many a time over Jehans post this event would be far more about living the life than combat, so take it slowly on the combat and work up to a well organized safe combat regiem in the future.

On the same note I'd like to throw this out there for those that are more inclined to the martial side of an event. I went to the Vegas faire that Jehan has mentioned, as part of my group (ECS) and planned like most event to spend a good amount of my time fighting. I wound up living the weekend as an armourer not a fighter, with between practice and combat less than 20min on the field. Guess what it was one of the most fun events I've been to do to two things: #1 I lived the part I play, that of an armourer. It was fun to spend time discussing the details of what I do and how I do it with people, letting people try one bits and pieces I had, instilling what knowledge (not allways a lot, but hey) I have in them, and reparing armour (the worst part of an armoueres job). #2 was do to Jehans company and there gracious welcome at there camp. It was a blast to just sit around in a camp that looked the part filled with peole that looked the part, it was other than at my tools the one place in that particular faire that I felt I "fit in".

So with all that I can summerize it with the cliche of "Let those that can, do" So if there are those at such an event that "can" put on a show of arms safetly let them "do" so, but remember this event is as much about living the life as ANYTHING else.

Brian
(aka Brizio de Corizzaio de Marone)

Re Vera, Cara Mea, Mea Ni Refert

[Kel Rekuta]

I need to respond more in-depth, but let me first express my regret that my perception of the different ways to approach medieval combat has offended you.

I'll respond more later, and I'll provide answers hopefully to your satisfaction.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

Understood. I'll join you there. I regret omitting an emoticon in the subject line. That omission darkened the tone of my rebuttal. Mea culpa.

Also, I think knitebee has the right answer to your question. I'd really enjoy the event he suggests.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Brian: You make good sense. Let's all meet up and see what we have.

I still want to encourage those who want to try chivalric combat to do so, under the concepts listed above. I imagine that combat will not be a major emphasis, but training might. I believe that doing chivalric combat has a place in high fidelity re-enactment and living history, and that we know enough to replicate it in a way that hasn't been done often enough.

But that said, those who wish to participate in the event but whose harness doesn't meet the requirements for full harness appropriate to their chosen era will still have much to do, as Brian can attest. It's an interesting experience to do applied medievalism without having to worry about harness and combat and so forth--very relaxing.

Murdock: I would be totally stoked if you did come! I know you have been fighting the good fight down there in Alabama, and I think that we could have a fun time. Your suggestion above is a very good one (and I'm sorry I didn't respond to it sooner!). Those who are doing non-noble portrayals--and believe me, most folks doing living history do! --can do a variety of other things, shoot at the butts, play games, listen to music, trade notes, engage in discussions about history, and so on. I firmly believe Jeff Hedgecock's assertion that to try to portray a knight is folly, just due to the precious materials and panoply that such a wealthy portrayal would demand--not to mention the horses!

Halvgrim: Very sound advice. I have the benefit of having sixteen months to plan this event. Nothing is set in stone, though I plan on taking all the advice that I have and proposing something that makes good sense. And when I do, I agree, I ought to be circumspect about the "advice" I receive afterwards. Such an event cannot be all things to all people, and a very good saying comes to mind: "Vote with your hands." The people attending are going to decide what kind of event it is.

My goal is to provide a venue which should be attractive to many different types of persons whether they like hawking, or coursing with hounds, or horse activities, or chivalric combat, or firing a trebuchet, or listening to music in a rustic wooded setting, practicing theatrical combat presentations, tacticals, discussion of various topics of interest to living history and high fidelity re-enactment, or taking and giving WMA instruction, or what-have you! Once the unterbau is settled, then those making the long drive can make it as they wish.

Until the first trucks pull into the site, it's all dust and shadows. When we are there, looking each other in the eye, we'll know what to do. I will publicize it as much as I can as far ahead as I can, so that everyone who might like to have an opportunity to attend, and who can manage a high fidelity kit and portrayal appropriate to the era from 1300-1500AD and camp in a primitve setting, can.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Murdock]

"I would be totally stoked if you did come!"


so would i

" I know you have been fighting the good fight down there in Alabama,"


i've been doing somethin, dunno if thats what ya'd call it though.


"and I think that we could have a fun time. Your suggestion above is a very good one (and I'm sorry I didn't respond to it sooner!)."


sokay


i make so few good suggestions i just figuered no one noticed

" Those who are doing non-noble portrayals--and believe me, most folks doing living history do!"


well they kinda have to. I have most of whats on yoru esquire list and it took me bout 5 years to get, and that was trying really hard and having help and people discount stuff to me! Besides shouldn't 80% or so of the population be commoners?


"-can do a variety of other things, shoot at the butts, play games, listen to music, trade notes, engage in discussions about history, and so on."

" I firmly believe Jeff Hedgecock's assertion that to try to portray a knight is folly, just due to the precious materials and panoply that such a wealthy portrayal would demand--not to mention the horses! "

I think he's mostly right. It's night impossible for the 15th century, i think it's not quite as impossible for the 14th since so much of the equipment is comparitively cheaper to buy. I think you can get a "snapshot" of a 14th century knight though. You could get the field harness and appropriate arming clothes and personal accessories( livery collar, clothes, badges ect), but that would only be good for standing in line at a military time line or perhaps for showing school kids a "costume". IMO that would'nt be real LH.

I don't think you can really get the encampment, tac, furniture and all the other odds and ends without spending a fortune to portray a 14th century knight. Man at arms.... esquire... maybe. I still need a horse though.

[morristh]

It would take me many years I am afraid to have a full fighting kit for this type of event. However, I think I could put together a reasonable archers kit. Or maybe Clergy Show up as a Bishop

Tim

[Jehan de Pelham]

Tim: I know we're getting away from Combat somewhat, but people interested in portraying clergy are welcome. We have friends who portray trappist monks (so they have a cover for their brewing!). If you can really manage the pimped out clothing that a Bishop would have, by all means. You would need a lot of precious-metal embroidered silks and so forth...I don't know that you would want to bring that stuff to a crossroads wayside camp.

Murdock: You're dead on. The list of stuff that I generally suppose to be correct for an esquire to have--I still don't have! And this was getting on to two years ago now that I started. So, I believe that the center of gravity in living history and high fidelity re-enactment is the non-noble portrayal--the archer, the man at arms, the specialist troop or civilian hireling--the folks who exercised the many trades and crafts that were done in the middle ages. I get totally stoked when I see people doing pottery in medieval clothing, on a olde style foot powered wheel, or sawing away at wood, or working metal in a field setting.

And for people who do non-noble portrayals, what martial outlet is there? Should there be an emphasis on martial activity in living history and high-fidelity re-enactment? Many seem to feel, no--and when you look at how medieval re-enactment has been an exercise in futilely trying to portray men and women so far beyond our means to portray it isn't funny you can see that there has been some misplaced emphasis. In many of the cases that you can find, there is at least somewhat diminished emphasis on the martial portrayals, though generally speaking there seems to be a void between civilians and men of cote--not too many folk seem interested in portraying the "grubby infantrymen" although it is easy to find examples. This de-emphasis on noble chivalric martial culture permits emphasis on the cultural and material aspects of the wider medieval society. And this is a good thing.

At the event proposed, there is an outlet for those desiring to do chivalric combat. Those who portray a civilian or non-noble military person, though they are being asked not to try and do a chivalric deed of arms in non-noble harness, still have other outlets--grappling, tacticals, and WMA instruction if a trainer is present. The archer's main business is loosing shafts, so they will have that outlet--all one needs is a large designated field for that.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

P.S.: I have put polls in the Off Topics Forum to do some market research and polling on bearable drive times and event fees for such an event.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=51888

and

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=51890

[morristh]

Tim: I know we're getting away from Combat somewhat, but people interested in portraying clergy are welcome. We have friends who portray trappist monks (so they have a cover for their brewing!). If you can really manage the pimped out clothing that a Bishop would have, by all means. You would need a lot of precious-metal embroidered silks and so forth...I don't know that you would want to bring that stuff to a crossroads wayside camp.
John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

Well I think I could start as a parish Priest and work my way up I need to investigate this area more. I am familiar with Tridentine period vestments, but no so much of the earlier stuff. Portraying a clergyman, while in real life being married with lots of kids would be fun I think. A fighting Bishop for this would be so cool, and cost like a gazillion bucks. I so need to win the Lotto

Tim

[Jeff J]

And for people who do non-noble portrayals, what martial outlet is there? Should there be an emphasis on martial activity in living history and high-fidelity re-enactment? Many seem to feel, no--and when you look at how medieval re-enactment has been an exercise in futilely trying to portray men and women so far beyond our means to portray it isn't funny you can see that there has been some misplaced emphasis. In many of the cases that you can find, there is at least somewhat diminished emphasis on the martial portrayals, though generally speaking there seems to be a void between civilians and men of cote--not too many folk seem interested in portraying the "grubby infantrymen" although it is easy to find examples.

Actually, in LH camps, most of the people portray common infantrymen. Partially because portaying nobility realistically isn't possible without vast sums of cash. The best that the high-end can do is "gentlemen", or some sort of "Captain"-ish rank. Most of our guys actually prefer to be common archer/billmen of Yeomen rank or less. We don't have the desire to be "lordly". Also, the bit about being "grubby" is a modern mis-perception regarding the hygene of common medieval persons, and I'd have thought you knew better.

There are plenty of martial activities for our lower-status combatants. Sword practice, archery contests, etc. It's as important for the common man as it is the nobility - perhaps even moreso, as levvies might need that practice.

We also have non-martial activities, but as most of the men prefer to portray martial impressions, it occasionally makes it difficult to include those non-martial impressions in a valid scenario. Often, the scenario is that the armed men are escorting the women to a new household, faire, place of safety at a time of war, or some other semi-plausable place.

Pretty girl in the last pic. It's a pity her clothing suffers from the common medieval reenactor women's clothing problem of being ill-fit. [rant] Ladies, make your clothes FIT, dammit! Look at some artwork! Your clothes are not supposed to look like you are wearing bags! [/rant]

PS - And, Jehan! Get that Richard III boar badge off the shoulder of your early 15th C kit! They didn't wear them there and the guy isn't even born yet!

[Jehan de Pelham]

Jeff, you're awesome. Thanks! : )

We're in complete agreement.

I was talking specifically about certain groups--if you go about looking for groups you can find a lot of supposed "knights" out there.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Jeff J]

Jeff, you're awesome. Thanks! : )

We're in complete agreement.

I was talking specifically about certain groups--if you go about looking for groups you can find a lot of supposed "knights" out there.

Yup - we agree that I'm awesome!

As for all of those guys in crappy gear claiming to be "Knights" - well, they suck!

It's good to see that you are getting some good feedback here regarding safe steel combat. It can be done. I've been using blunt steel for combat for about 15 years. To date, I think I've drawn blood once - with a half-speed thrust which broke the skin on a hand that should have had a gauntlet on it. I've blackened an eye on a fellow with a fist to his face, (who should have had his visor down) and dropped someone with a thrust that skipped off of the shield and went to the unprotected "family jewels". The common thread here is that in each case, the mandated protective gear was not being being properly used.

[Murdock]

"How do the men at arms present here feel about the customs of combat that essentially make the chivalric combats either counted blows, judged by the King of Arms, or timed, or until someone touches the ground with something other than their feet, or until the King of Arms throws down his baton and says "Enough" or some other variation? "

Going back to that


Make the variatuios options of a challenge? Sommething like a tree of Charlemange. Challenger gets the method and challenged gets choice of weapons.


The lack of the option of having people portray a common soldier in the SCA is a lacking. It would have given people with different goals a different bar and a diferent path.

Tim, get monks robes and sword and buckler and be the priest fron i-33

[Jehan de Pelham]

Yeah, you're a teen dream date.

The comment about "grubby infantry" was a term of speech--I know that medieval hygeine wasn't "ye olde annual scrapings with ye oyle." Though if you don't think that the rank and file got pretty grubby after a couple of days on the march then you haven't served time in history's cleanest Army.

I can't remember: Are you in agreement with Chef de Chambre about the lighter rebated weapons being safer than the heavier ones? This is in relation to the measurement of edge thickness? He favors a lighter sword that necessarily has a thinner edge (1mm) rather than a crowbar at 2 or even 3mm.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Murdock]

i'd say lighter would give more control and be safer.


Safest would be the 2mm aluminums from like Valentine or Holy wood combat center.

[knitebee]

I'll chime in on the differences between light and heavy rebated swords. do note this is far more personal opinion than experiance. A thicker heavier blade (such as the ECS I'm part of uses) hit like crowbars, they dont flex and absorb much of the force of a blow. A thinner blade will bend more and absorb a portion of the force of a blow. A thinner blade is allso far more telling to th user on how a blow fell, hit even slightly flat and the blade flexes and skips off the target. A thicker blade with less flex to it will just smash into what ever its hitting regardless of how square on the hit is. One draw back I can see to thinner blades is that a thrust couldslide to a joint in the armour and the blade flex enough to let the tip slide between the plates (Just like half swording is intended to do).

Thats my 2c of oppinion on the subject, I'd like to hear from those with more experinace on it though.

Brian

[Jehan de Pelham]

Brian: I agree that the thicker blunts seem way off. I know that Chef de Chambre feels that thinner edges permit blade geometry that makes for a lighter sword--and a lighter sword seems safer to me. The ECS stick swords seem strange to me.

Murdock: I don't know that it's wise to formalize any tournament proceedings. It might give chivalric combats too much gravitas in an event meant to focus on all aspects. Now, if the combatants brought some chivalric combat props like that, and hung them from trees on their own, then that's on them and I certainly wouldn't disagree. What I want to avoid is the idea that there's going to be anything like a tournament that resembles what we're used to.

I agree totally that the assumed noble role in the SCA causes some strange frictions. There are lots of people who don't want to do that, and there are lots of people who can't do that. It would be interesting and super cool to see more really well done men at arms kits, especially if they got in the habit of seeking to get hired by well dressed men at arms!

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Jehan de Pelham]

This is an example of one kind of harness that would be acceptable for chivalric combat. This one would be state of the art for Agincourt, with the addition of a helmet (transitional great bascinet or hounskull) and finger gauntlets. It is probable at this time that the rerebraces might be fully enclosed, and there might be a mail haubergeon still in use, or voiders, but it is certainly complete as it is.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Mike F]

Mmmmmm. Agincourt.

Neat harness.