The Armour Archive

If you were setting up an inter-group medieval event centered on the era 1300 to 1500, and you had to lay down guidance for resolution of formal deeds of arms, how would you go about it? Keep in mind that you are trying to establish a certain aesthetic of combat--an aesthetic that isn't addressed in the combat rules for the SCA, the ECS, or other groups for whom combat is a central attraction.

This is a crosspost from the Interpretation Forum. I felt on the spot to give my feelings about how to go about this, so I wrote:

"I agree with Chef. If people think they can show up with a Del Tin and just start whacking away at someone they have never met and who they aren't familiar with it is a recipe for disaster. Maybe the smart thing to do is to get to know each other, do some drill, do some WMA teaching and learning together, and build foundations before building a roof. Baston clubs are a different thing--I am not so worried about those.

Regarding the fighting aspect, I really want to de-emphasize the combat aspects in preference of a more balanced approach. There is overmuch emphasis on bashing at each other in medieval re-enactment/living history. I have to make this clear--this is not an event focusing on combat. I would rather see one really well done deed of arms than a dozen half-assed ones. I realize that I am taking a huge burden onto my shoulders and I have to make some difficult guesses at what will be acceptable and pleasing to those who want to engage in chivalric combat (I am likely to be one of them!), but here is what I am envisioning:

Any foot combats that would be done has to be done according to the way medieval fighting and contests of arms were done in the era from 1300 to 1500. There is a lot to be said about this, but to summarize:

Weapons will be arms of peace: rebated steel weapons with a minimum 1mm edge (no burs, cleanly polished and filed), or leather-covered wood (any suggestions as to species?) or leather-covered rattan baston clubs made in the medieval style a'la Rene.

The armor must be a complete garniture or harness in substance, not just appearance. No basket hilts. No bargrills (YES, I KNOW THERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF THEM JUST TRUST ME). Steel finger gauntlets or mitten gauntlets appropriate to the later-era harnesses. Harnesses at the earlier range supposed to be pre-finger gauntlet will use finger gauntlets.

No formal duels or single combats between men of "low degree." ie: footsoldiers, men at arms, or infantry; only men of cote portrayed as such may conduct deeds of arms. Men of "low degree" can go out behind the tents and stab one another if they wish over their dice games gone badly or some camp follower they don't care to share or what-have you.

Combats will not be done with acted out wounds or fighting from the knees, unless someone trips. Combats will be done either to blows counted by a King of Arms selected by both combatants, or they shall be until the King of Arms selected by both combatants throws down a baton and says "Enough!" Or until one of the combatants raises his hand and says "I yield!"

There shall be no clear "winner" determined by the combatants (unless one of them yields, then it is somewhat clear) but the renown of any combatant shall be bourne and testified to by the witnesses by word of mouth, song, or other means.

Any mounted combats would be done in accordance with the IJA ruleset or other established mounted combat ruleset agreed upon by any chevaliers present and desiring to do mounted combat.

Tell me if I am far off the mark with this one."

How would you go about it?

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

Nice.

100 people have read this and Rod Walker is the only one to respond (probably because I put in the IJA mounted combat rules as the default--though it's really up to the mounted combatants)?

Either what I proposed blows monkey-sack and everyone'e embarrassed or it's so crazy it's stunned you all.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

I am a little confused what you are asking. Are you asking how I would go about setting up rules for fighting at an event like this? Or, how would I go about setting up an event like this?


If combat rules is what you are after The first thing I would do is locate the combat rules for all the major LH, WMA, and Rebatted Steel fighting groups you think will come to this event. Then compare and contrast, armour requirements, blow acknowledgement, target areas, etc. For each group. Design your combat regulations around those. Then after that submitt the rules to each group and see if they would consider them accpetable (no reason to just make up some rules only to find out the groups you want to come won't because they don't like the rules).

-Edited to Add-------------------------------------------------------------
Set up a time prior to the fighting for "training" (this can be the day before or a couple hours prior) making sure everyone is familiar with the current rules and calibration expected. They don't train, they don't fight.
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Once the combat rules are set then move onto format. Which it looks like you are a good handle on already. Set up certain scenarios and gather an educated sounding board to bounce ideas off of.

Then set up garb and aesthetic requirements. "as authentic as possible" really isn't a good explaination. Look at the big events like Hastings and TFBO there is literally a list of acceptable materials and styles as well as options available for garb, camp, harness, etc.


If you are asking how you should go about doing an event like this, first find a site. You can have the greatest idea in the world but with out a site it is useless. Then find out about insurance and how much that will cost, look at amenities (baths, toilets, food, water, etc.) and whether or not you will need to "truck them in". I know you are looking for a medieval atmosphere with camping and such, but certain items will need to be near by for use, especially if you plan on having horses. Once you have a site and all your "costs" laid out for the event then calculate how much the event will cost based on attendance 50, 75, 100, 150, 200 people. Then send out feelers and see what kind of interest there is for this and when the best time to hold it would be. Add up the total amounts of "yes I would goes" and subtract 1/3 and you can get a half way decent idea of what your attendance might be barring things like weather.

Sorry, I was out behind the tents playing dice and didn't get a chance to read it all.

What it looks like you are looking for is a LH style tourney with WMA rules. I am not sure what the overall appeal would be to people. It's one thing for me to sit here and say "Wow, great idea!" It's another for me to push for an event that I don't have the kit or camp to participate in.

I actually had started a response earlier but deleted it because I wasn't sure I could be constructive. The thing is, I don't know what the "aesthetic of combat" your trying to achive is. I think what you've proposed sounds like workable system but I can't tell you if it will achieve your aesthetic goals.

Weapons will be arms of peace: rebated steel weapons with a minimum 1mm edge (no burs, cleanly polished and filed), or leather-covered wood (any suggestions as to species?) or leather-covered rattan baston clubs made in the medieval style a'la Rene.

That would be very neat. Not so keen on live steel, but leather covered rattan baston clubs would be -oh so neat-

Ah, okay, I am getting the idea: I haven't defined the question well enough.

I am going to address questions about the proposed customs of combat here, and the other things relating to event administration that InsaneIrish brought up elsewhere.

Okay, here is what prompted my foray into this: Some folks interested in a living history/high fidelity re-enactment/display indicated that they would be interested in doing some sort of combat. I thought that such would be possible, but in essence a new set of expectations about how to go about it ought to be proposed.

I wanted to not limit participants to choreographed or semi-choreographed combats, but at the same time I didn't want to say "Go ahead and bring your duct-taped rattan." It's not that kind of event. So, the general premise that I put forward was that if two combatants were to agree, they could use rebated steel or leather-covered bastons a'plaisance.

The purpose is to simulate a'plaisance combats to a set goal, either number of blows struck, or submission--as they were fought in the middle ages from 1300 to 1500. The combats would be overseen by a King of Arms agreeable to each combatant who would have supreme oversight of the combat, to stop it, or to count blows, and to in general officiate. Someone who has some referent power and who knows enough about chivalric combats to understand where these things ought not to go.

As far as I know, no acting out of wounds was done in the middle ages in a'plaisance combats, and combatants were pretty much free to strike as they pleased, provided the King of Arms did not decide that the combat had "gone to far"--a delightfully vague standard that has nothing to do with modern obsessions with exacting perfection in boundary setting!

Here are my suppositions:

1. There really is no provision in any of the high fidelity re-enactment groups that I know of for any kind of non-cooperative chivalric contests of arms.

A. When rebated steel weapons are used, they are used according to agreed upon principles and strike angles. You can see an example of one such set of rules here: http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ulti ... 4&t=000019

B. There is very little discussion of the use of baston clubs in chivalric combat, though I heard that they were used at Leeds.

C. Traditional unmodified SCA rattan combat is not seriously considered. There is considerable cultural resistance to the presence of duct-taped weapons, and to acted out blows among the LH/re-enactment community.

D. There is little or no provision that I am aware of in the WMA community for full speed uncooperative harnischfechten.

2. Rather than establish "rules" it seems better to establish customs and allow the combatants to utilize existing adaptations of the various existing rulesets as it pleases them both. To be blunt, it is rather probable that those interested in chivalric combat are going to come from the group that does it the most, the SCA, so there is a broad set of already accepted assumptions for them to use as a foundation in their combat. However, rather than have combatants go at their combats from the traditional SCA format assumptions (ie: combatants standing in line waiting for a herald to call their name to the field to participate in a double elimination tournament or bearpit or other commonly used modern solution for moving large amounts of participants in and out of a field), it seemed necessary to suggest these historical observations:

A. Formal Combats (Deeds of Arms) were done between two or more men at arms of the gentry class or up; "Men of Cote." What is this? Two well armored men at arms with personal heraldry depicting at least the esquire class.

B. Deeds of Arms were at least semi-formal affairs with some kind of pre-arrangement, even if it is so little as to say "I think you look at me too directly, meet me upon the field in an hour to satisfy honor." With a smile, of course, in this case, because it is merely a pretense.

C. Men of Cote wear full harness to Deeds of Arms, even a'plaisance. The armor must be actual armor. There isn't much need to go further, especially among those who understand living history or high fidelity re-enactment. I could define material specifications all day long and someone would find a backdoor--as I will here demonstrate by attempting to provide a road that those who get it will follow to its logical conclusion:

i. All harness worn must provide full body, head, and limb coverage to include shins and hands appropriate to the era of harness depicted and replicate or approximate a harness depicted in iconography (brasses, illustrations, effigies, statuary, or other art). Persons bringing out of the ordinary harness should bring a printed copy of the iconography justifying it for the education of all present.

ii. Steel plate (stainless, mild, or spring), steel mail (stainless, mild, or spring--butted or riveted is equally acceptable), splinted leather defenses, textile armors (cotton, fustian, linen, hemp, or silk), brass, bronze, soft or hardened leather are acceptable materials.

iii. The addition of modern or ahistorical protective gear beneath layers of accurately depicted foundation garments or completely hidden by harness is optional at the wearer's discretion (for example a body bracelet for protection of the kidneys and lower vertebrae).

iv. The absence of complete harness hidden by textile shells is not permitted; simulation of complete harness achieved by use of a textile shell or covering garment is not permitted. Use of purely ahistorical torso armor covered by textile shells is not permitted.

v. Modifications of medieval harness made to suit SCA combat conventions is unauthorized: no bargrills, no basket hilts, no shield baskets.

vi. Armor construction techniques which are standard modern practice are acceptable: welded helmet construction, welded cop and poleyn construction, machine riveted mail, machine sewing, are acceptable.

vii. No aluminum, plastic, or titanium shields. No plastic, rubber, or other modern shield edging. Plywood shields are acceptable provided the nature of the material is concealed by leather, cloth, or paint.

viii. Footwear of modern appearance is prohibited. Welt soles are permissible, provided the footwear presents the approximation of medieval footwear existing from 1300AD to 1500AD

D. Blow calling and calibration are un-necessary. Combatants either yield or are stopped from further combat by the King of Arms.

E. Acted out wounds is prohibited and universally considered by medievalists to be ahistorical practice.

F. Falling down will be either due to actual distress or accident, not to simulate "death" or "stunning."

G. Steel weapons will be rebated steel weapons with edges of at least 1mm, clean and without burs, made by a manufacturer acceptable to both combatants. Men at arms desiring to do combat with rebated steel weapons are responsible for determining the acceptability of their desired weapon before expecting that it will be acceptable to their opponent.

H. Wooden weapons will be either wood or rattan bastons made in the fashion suggested by King Rene, covered with thin unhardened leather, to simulate either a mace or a sword. The length of such bastons shall not exceed thirty-six inches in total in any cased.

I. Combatants shall before each contest agree upon what shall be permitted, and not deviate from those permissions given.

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I have addressed a number of points which were brought up but know that some were missed.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

P.S.: Agreed on the "training" aspect. All combatants must discuss agreed upon conventions and practice in harness before the competetive event in order to establish an agreement about how the combat will be conducted.

I had not replied further because, while I think it's well-conceived, that's not "my game...." It *seems* to me that this is simply a typical SCA event with different equipment and engagement rules presented within a slightly compressed timeframe. While I think you guys have a great game, and I'm definitely Society-friendly, I would have no reason to attend such an event.

For the specific game you propose, I think it's well-considered.

I propose that the reason why you think this way is because of this discussion of rules, even to provide for the unlikely event that some sort of a'plaisance combat would occur. If I may ask, what is "your game?"

Let me assure you that I am trying to establish a rendevous for pre-settlement re-enactment/living history and the emphasis shall remain in that direction.

If I want an SCA event, I can have one; they are amply provided without trouble or cost to myself except for the gas to get there and attendance fees. This is something to satisfy my interests outside the SCA. However, I want to make it accessible to those in the SCA who are also interested in high-fidelity re-enactment.

There are very few organized groups west of the Rocky Mountains involved in high fidelity re-enactment or living history, let alone representing the era from 1300-1500. I expect very little response but it seems to me that a first step is necessary.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

Jehan de Pelham wrote:No formal duels or single combats between men of "low degree." ie: footsoldiers, men at arms, or infantry; only men of cote portrayed as such may conduct deeds of arms. Men of "low degree" can go out behind the tents and stab one another if they wish over their dice games gone badly or some camp follower they don't care to share or what-have you.

Jehan I would almost be willing to be one of these "lesser men", many the times been when I thought a good mugging would improve our game, although the lady I am currently seeing, well any that I have ever dated, would be a bit peeved if I said " Baby, would you mind acting the part of a strumpet so I can stab that guy a few times?" Unless of course she thought he really deserved it.

Yeah! There's fun to be had by everyone--even (or especially!) the camp followers!

Lachlann, you're a man who I respect implicitly because of our shared experience on the anvil of virtue. What do you think of these rules of combat, not as a heavy weapons combatant in the SCA, but as a man who knows something about the middle ages and chivalric culture? Tell me how they can be better.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

For our group we are trying to work out a combat system that keeps the intensity and random actions of SCA fighting yet appears to be much more historically accurate. IMO a believable combat involves the speed and intent of the combatants to do violence to one another... But I am not too familiar with all the fighting styles out there...

I have been working with rattan, shaved and rasped to emulate a sword, soaked in glue to keep the strands tight and strengthen the blade and painted to represent a gilt silver tournament sword. After the hilt the sword goes from 1" to roughly 5/8" and is shaped as a sword. The hilt and pommel are from Mandrake Armoury and have another that I have made made myself.

I know in the LH circles Rattan is a heresy- but I am an SCA Knight too.. and have found Rattan to be very combat friendly.
This sword hits like a ton of bricks as the force is concentrated. It looks the part and feels the part as the glue adds weight and takes some of the "whip" out.

It does chip up and doesnt last as long as taped rattan and will break eventually.
Its also a less expensive option for fighting weapons.
We plan to really put this weapon into fighting to see "if" it will work out long term, this is not set in stone in our group but on in the experimental stage...

The realistic overall feel of the struggle of accurately armored Nobility is what we are wishing to ultimately achieve. So I am sure the search will be ongoing...

Henri

Close helms only yes ?
Since you assume that many if not most of your people will be SCA can I suggest a morning training run, weapon familiarization time if you will. I have been tempted many times to try steel combat but worry that muscle memory would lead me to throw a shot that would cause real injury.

I would tighten your armour materials a bit, I would not allow soft leather as the main armour. For example, I will be attempting a Buff Coat here in the future and while it does not fit your timeline at all, it would be acceptable in many LH units, but it is simply not heavy enough to reliably stop full power blows from steel weapons.

Thank you for removing acted out wounds, and letting the combatants simply fight until they have had enough. Maybe do counted blows sometimes, even though the way we have done it it is almost to submision anyways.

I love the idea itself and am sorry you moved far away to where I cannot come play at this.

I hope that these deeds and duels would be fought with full blazonry and the pomp they deserve, maybe even sending your herald to another's camp to deliever a handwritten challenge to that...person...... who intrudes his base born self upon the company of his betters and should be whipped back to the kennel from which he crawled to sleep with the rest of the curs...
oops sorry, got carried away.

Jehan, don't get me wrong: you've done a very nice job.
In terms of "my game," the folks I study were knights, and courtiers, and occasionally "light" cavalry (I despise that term -- the Cumans were more than willing to duke it out at close quarters, and judging by 1205 Adrianople, quite capable of it as well) who were knights and courtiers (!!)... but the cult of chivalry was only loosely adopted in East Central Europe once you're out of Bohemia and Silesia, and then primarily with huge royalist overtones, and characteristics that very clearly do NOT fit into the Anglo-French models. So a purely chivalric gathering is something difficult to shoehorn the personae into. I could show up as a merchant or a peasant, or even an "are you lost?" burgher, I suppose, but none of my fighting personae would have a reason to be there.

Now, it might be quite possible to remedy that in two directions that I can think of off the top of my head, and probably more as brighter heads than mine weigh in:

1. Provide a vague historical venue alongside which this is going to occur, and agree to "fudge" the attendees' actual timeline, vaguely how MTA handles things. Therefore, you can provide a generalized locus, and your folks showing up are still generally within a specific timeframe. (The other part of my game, is that it's living *history.* I want that historical hook... that's 5/6 of the fun for geeks like moi)
2. Open up the class distinctions, without muddying them. This could *easily* be done, for example, if various lords were raising companies or organizing affairs for an upcoming campaign: you get plenty of justification for folks to play at combat, no matter what their social station, along with quite a bit more reason for camp followers of various levels of respectability to be there.

I was severely p'o'-ed at not getting to go up to play with Halvy's folks (well, insofar as you can be p'o'ed at somebody losing her Mom), and would enjoy getting to play more... so long as I can justify the time and money to the wifey unit...

Russ, okay, cool. What you're saying is that it's wrong place wrong time in terms of the premise. If I can ask what era and culture are you into portraying? early 13th century? I agree that the eastern european cultures pretty quickly trail off into non-chivalric warrior cults--it's not a good matchup for the play. I want to keep this focused so that unity of purpose and aesthetic is not diluted.

I wish I had video of our days we spent at the Age of Chivalry Renaissance Faire in Las Vegas earlier this month. Days filled with getting in armor for the parade, walking around a bit talking with wide-eyed children, back to camp to play at the tables (backgammon) for replica coin, enjoy some music played by Owain Phyfe, enjoy a fine plate of meats and cheeses and fruits, have about a beer or three, fire the trebuchet a six or so times, take off the armor for an afternoon rubdown and some toilet in preparation for dinner, then a great dinner with music--that sort of thing. Not one little bit of combat in the whole time. Yes, a martial camp. No, very little emphasis on combat.

I don't want to give off too much of the impression that this gathering is about gentry-based chivalric sport. It was originally conceived as an opportunity for the few groups just east to west of the Rockies to get together and see what it's all about, and to have a good time doing our own thing. If you could imagine a medieval faire, concentrated on Europe from Poland to England without the public, but with each other as the patrons, that's about it. Civilian impressions are much more do-able, and I find the attraction to portraying a man at arms, the lemming-like insistence on doing it even if it's done so incompletely as to be odd, unexplainable. It seems like the best approach is to get the soft kit and then over time obtain the armor until one can do a good infantry impression, perhaps a levyman or a town militiaman, or house troop, and then onward and so on until a complete decently equipped man at arms kit (which is really the whole armor with somewhat of an excuse to have armor of less quality, and less adornment), and eventually a gentry-based kit. So, Russ, your "lost burgher," provided you're interested in this sort of thing and you have something interesting to share in the context of living history/high-fidelity re-enactment and you're good company, would be perfectly at home and welcome (from about as far east as feasible).

Chivalric combat would be one possible pastime, and possibly a good afternoon bit of entertainment, but frankly I don't know too many people who could meet the harness requirements (which are intentionally strict), and this segues into a response to Lachlann's comments.

Yes, I agree. Soft leather as a main armor is not correct...I was intending it as a component material, for example as straps, or as a camail attachment, or some such. You and I know that the proper full harnesses of the time were at the earliest time considered (1300AD) mail-based with joint protection in plate and a hardened leather cuirass, and by the latest time (1500AD) a full and complete harness with only a few vulnerable points. Yes, close helms only.

Regarding the possibility of drill, this was never out of the picture--in fact the whole chivalric combat topic was brought up because some folks said that they thought that if there wasn't even the possibility of some full speed non-cooperative free-play it would be a little boring. My initial concept was that perhaps there would be some I.33 or some Harnischfechten training if an instructor was available. Maybe some discussion about tacticals to be done in the future. That was it at first and now there's this whole discussion, which I find welcome but only one aspect of the whole thing.

I personally love the idea of some Fiore grappling being taught, and getting it to the point where some bouting could take place, even without weapons. I'm not askeered of the whole wrasslin' thing--my Wednesday mornings are Gracie JiuJitsu chokefests with my fellow staff officers. And really, there's not a lot of reason that anyone should be scared; men of goodwill and without intent to harm one another don't break their toys. In a pinch I could teach some basic Gracie, that could be a hoot in medieval clothes!

On the training SCA fighters to work with rebated steel--I am going to leave that one to someone else. I haven't done it before, and it's a little beyond the scope of the class to retrain anyone. That's why I thought it best to conceptually accept both rebated steel and baston clubs--just not in the same combat: both cultures can get what they want with what they are familiar with, under their own agreements. And this leads into discussion of Henri's methods for finding that balance.

Yes, rattan is combat friendly. It has a mass to volume ratio that is forgiving. That's why I thought that a rattan baston club sheathed in thin leather might be a really good compromise. The rattan is hidden beneath the leather, a 2" peice of rattan shaved into a hexagonal club (angles eased), with 4-6 oz leather sewn into a sheath, whetted good, and stretch-pulled over the club then allowed to dry.

I want to address the aversion that living history folks have toward combat; it's probably because groups like the SCA have become so combat-centric that they've allowed just about any armor that meets the technical specifications of the marshal's handbook to be allowed onto the field--and from a friendly, inclusive standpoint there's every reason in the world to do that. There is nothing inherently "wrong" or "incorrect" or "out of place" with chivalric combat in a living history setting; it's just that from the standpoint of deep medievalists it is almost always done in an artificial manner that is ahistorical. Not that I can speak for all living history persons, but this is the impression I get.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

I think you have an opportunity to have some fun rules around stabbing each other over dice games gone bad out behind the pavilion. You might draw some more people in. And it would be a good opportunity to do some study on unarmed combats like talhoffer and libieri. Just an idle thought.

Absolutely! Those individuals who leave their armor behind could participate in the unarmored combat training and perhaps even contests later in the week. It's a great idea. Just need to find credible instructors.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

Jehan de Pelham wrote:I personally love the idea of some Fiore grappling being taught, and getting it to the point where some bouting could take place, even without weapons. I'm not askeered of the whole wrasslin' thing--my Wednesday mornings are Gracie JiuJitsu chokefests with my fellow staff officers. And really, there's not a lot of reason that anyone should be scared; men of goodwill and without intent to harm one another don't break their toys. In a pinch I could teach some basic Gracie, that could be a hoot in medieval clothes!

There is no shortage of folks who can demonstrate the basics of Fiore grappling in the Rocky Mountain area. And there is an outstanding instructor in Ft. Collins if you are willing to put up with a little rigor in your training. If no one else is available I've been studying the material for two years now. I'm no expert, but I can point folks in the right direction.

Regarding your statement (which I have put in bold type) above, I agree 100%. But the question of intent is a very large one. The SCA suffers from lack of intent. We have guys who believe they are fighting to the death taking the field with guys who are fighting for glory. I think that you will have people showing up with misconceptions. Educating people as to the nature of this particular chivalric event is going to be perhaps your greatest hurdle. And I have occasionally grappled with my fellow students in the Rocky Mountain Historical Combat Guild, and it is energetic and fun, but we all understand the limits and have demonstrated control and earned the trust of our fellow combatants. A group of strangers will have no trust, no history, and probably have no common understanding of what the rules and goals are.

Not a criticism, just an observation.

Plenty of potential. I like the way you clarified your idea... previously, I thought you were basically talking about running an overglorified Pas...

Personally speaking, I could run from 1300-1430, in terms of available personae, and have the kit to come out as a low-level guardsman or the like almost immediately, though some of my clothes would look a bit exotic. Hell, I could be a firebreathing, rabble-rousing Hussite peasant preacher, if it came to that. (I'm good company: I just come across a lot harder in print than I do in person. Conversely, feel free to bang on me if you think I'm being a jerk: you're probably right.)

It's not just chivalric-vs.-everybody else, though, or shouldn't be, imho... ymmv.... think about the Nicopolis campaign. The pre-occupations of the Franco-Burgundian nobles were seen as a kind of madness outside of their very specific inter-dynastic context... so you'd find Silesians, Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, anybody who was used to fighting against *other civilisations,* behaving in quite the knightly fashion, very happy to spend time with western knights on their reisen into pagan lands, but who would be *appalled* at the notion that one's Marshall should be at the head of the van wasting his time dealing with rabble skirmishers, rather than kept in reserve in order to strike the actual decisive blows against the enemy's men of quality...

I don't know how most American LH is done combatwise. We certainly have zero aversion to it in my Hungarian group... but at the same time, we do it with a "refined sport" mentality, aiming into armor, and playing very much on a competitive but "you have done enough" mentality rather than the way we'd play SCA-style (which I've done, just not enough of). Control really is an issue. One very good way of diluting the reflexes back and forth (I have to do this in my martial arts salle when distinguishing between impact and edge weapons), is to strongly encourage blows with a visibly apparent cut... where the LINE of the cut on the body, as opposed to merely the impact, is visible.

If your camp is set somewhere that allows for a cosmoplitan atmosphere (say, a Church Council, where you have folks from everywhere under the sun, along with all their retainers and entertainment), you'd get that "fair" mentality you're looking for, along with all kinds of potential for mayhem/hilarity -- with the play naturally evolving out of the "why on earth do you carry that silly (weapon X)?" "Oh, yeah? And your Mother fulls wool on Sunday!" "No, no, no! A priest who is in sin can NOT administer the sacrament validly! Have at you, heretic!" "Quick, quick, m'lord! Brother Meynard's going after the Utraquist students again!"

I like the idea Jehan. Of course the location thing might be an issue. You would have to find a location that is large enough for the potential amount of people, and one that will actually allow such an event. Are you a member of Rocky Mtn Guild? Is this something you would consider holding in CO?
Maybe you should contact some people from various WMA groups and get their take on the idea. You could always start with the ones listed on the Chicago Swordplay WMA map http://www.chicagoswordplayguild.com/wm ... s_map.html

I think it might have the potential to be something as large as the Racine event this year, but designing it so that it is appealing to all groups with a basic armor requirement. A lot of WMA practicioners dont have a lot of armor.
Rebated steel would be nice, but hard to regulate. A weapon inspection would be required like with other fight groups. I have never seen a leather covered wood sword though. I would figure a nice waster from some place like Purpleheart Armoury would be sufficient. Once you start going to rattan it will begin to be like other reenactment groups. I wont get into comments I made about that (which I regret making becuase I was enjoying my homemade mead a little too much at the time), but I think the more realistic you make it, the larger the crowd you might be able to attract.

I just think it might be a little too big to attempt right off. Perhaps start with something small that has the potential to expand as the years go on.

Mike

Wasn't Brian Price involved in a similar effort with some European societies to allow inter-group play? This was a few years ago, but you might want to tag him and see what he has worked up. With regards... AoC

I think that Russ may have hit upon a good "scenario". If I recall, there were two "armies" that met up in after taking different routes to Nicopolis.
It could be the camp where the forces (Franco-Burgundian and allies) joined together.
I would expect the place to have quite a diverse selection of people. While I am not well read on this subject, I seem to recall English, Franco-Burgundian, and "German" troops along with Native forces.
Also, perhaps AEMMA might have rules that could be helpful.

Jester: I absolutely understand your concerns. My experiences are with people who have a generally homogenous culture (the Army) and also have good reason NOT to want to break one another. I can see how strangers could be a problem. Best to incorporate training, discussion, slow work, then close to the end of the event go into free bouting--under the watchful eye of everyone involved. The keystone of this is to lay the foundation of the intent of this thing, both before the event and before each training session: there will be no declared winner, this is a friendly application of martial technique where learning the basics is the primary goal, not competition. It needs to be said that if things go wrong, the whole process gets set back, possibly for years. I would like very much to be put in touch with the instructor you mention. If he is interested in participating, then his input to the whole grappling aspect of this event will be respected and invaluable.

How do you think it best to proceed in building that base level of consensus and trust required to do free bouting in grappling?

Russ: The "setting" or overarching "premise" of the gathering is something which I have not spoken of yet, but my thinking is that it could be a crossroads festival in honor of whatever saints' day it happens to fall on. A gathering of persons for a variety of purposes: celebration, waystopping on pilgrimage, noblemen and retinue travelling between manors, and of course any merchants and mercantile activity which might spring up where-ever people gather. This is a vague enough yet defined enough premise that it has some applicability to most portrayals. In the end however, it might very well be best to avoid discussion of "premise" in depth in case someone believes that the "premise" doesn't apply to them--the actual premise is to provide a venue where persons interested in, capable of, and desirous of setting up a high fidelity portrayal and exchanging notes and information in a rustic, aesthetically pleasing setting can do so. And what it becomes is more a matter of what happens and who comes. I hope you appreciate that getting too wrapped up in "premise" might tip potential participants over the edge of not participating--insofar as the groups participating are high fidelity re-enactment/living history groups, I think a big tent in the 1300-1500 milleu (just before the HYW and just after the WoR) serves the interests of the most.

That said, I can think of a perfect premise for your portrayal to be present, as a itinerant preacher/cleric from the pre-Hussite lands on pilgrimage and to hear Wyclif speak--or perhaps Wyclif himself, haranguing the assembled crowd!

I appreciate the comments on "living history-style" combat. Things to think about. I think that the outlines posted by Bob Reed here http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ulti ... 4&t=000019 make some good sense as a common philosophy and foundation, but I would have to see it in action.

Mike: Location is a lynchpin, agreed. The event has to have a high enough "pain to pleasure ratio" to make it worth it. That said, I am talking about a nine or ten day event spanning between two weekends. That can make it worth it to make a pretty lengthy trip. I know that I don't mind driving from Colorado Springs, Colorado to Las Vegas, Nevada (a twelve hour trip) to spend five days with my Compagnons in a very sub-optimal setting--ten days in a rustic setting would be great! With the good company of other groups of like mind? Paradise!

The setting must in my mind be a rustic setting (unless someone knows a setting which is concentrated around buildings which are appropriately designed and constructed), with services reasonably close so as to make occasional logistical trips worth the trouble. Shade, some shelter from the wind, relatively flat, temperate climate, grassy ground and some natural beauty seem to me pre-requisites for a site--an event held on high desert scrub is just, well, it's painful. Locating it centrally to the groups participating is also absolutely required. For now I am looking at sites within 12 hours of Las Vegas, Nevada, because right now the group that I am most confident in is in Las Vegas, Nevada--this certainly ranges into Colorado. As additional groups express solid interest site selection becomes better informed, but more limited. Colorado is a blessed land with regards to natural beauty.

I agree that not many WMA practicioners will have the harness required to safely and accurately do armored free play--this a term I have heard used to refer to it. However, if we go with a three-legged stool as regards combat: grappling by unarmored and armored persons of all types, blossfechten by persons wearing infantry and sub-noble harness, and harnischfecten being done by persons with gentry-level harness, there is something for everyone to do as regards combat--and combat is but one facet! The bigger question is do WMA practicioners have medieval soft kit for a portrayal appropriate to the era that their art comes from? Harness can come later if their interest is piqued.

On rebated steel, I thought it best to leave this to the practicioners--I know that groups have internal agreements and rules as to how they approach this and who is qualified to do harnischfecten with rebated steel. A wooden waster like the one that Purpleheart makes is indeed a respectable article and simulator. However, I would like to see some slight modifications made to one, address the potential for splintering, and two, to add just a little decrease in the hardness of the weapon, especially for use in non-cooperative unchoreographed free play. Rattan has a huge stigma among WMA practicioners, but it is very forgiving from the weight to volume standpoint and made into a hexagonal baston a'la Rene, and covered with 4-6 oz leather, it could be made to be inoffensive.

As far as its size indicating success--It will be what it will be--and as it is, so be it. If it has virtue, it will continue. If not, not. A group of thirty persons gathering for this event would be great--more is fine, a hundred in camps and individuals with even one good merchant offering authentic gear would be wildly successful to my mind (heck, I might have to look into opening up a one-event H.E. Franchise!). But if it's just my friends and I being ten to a dozen medievalists camping in kit, sparring and doing a little WMA self training, enjoying playing at the tables (backgammon) for Grunal Moneta replica coin, drinking a beer or three, listening to Owain Phyfe play live, firing le doight dieu (a third-scale trebuchet) and building a set of firing tables for it, perhaps riding if we choose to have an outfitter bring horses, and enjoying our pastime and comparing notes, it will be a success, we will take pictures and post them, and it will be repeated, and people will be invited for the next such gathering.

Sir Alfred: Thank you! I will certainly seek the advisement of Sir Brian. He certainly has led some ways into this territory in years past. Count Rhys has already contacted me privately with some very very sound advice.

Gethin: Can you tell me more privately about this Nicopolis event in history? It seems interesting.

To all both posting and reading: This discussion this far has been very thought provoking and encouraging, and I appreciate the input and the discourse. What do you think about the concept of such a gathering, and what personally would you like to see in such a gathering?

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

Jehan,
I respect your enthusiasm and I have wanted to see something like this for awhile. If it takes off, I would love to attend and I'm sure my students would as well. Geographical location is another big thing. It would be great if it was something I could drive to, but I don't honestly expect that to happen.
I would say just run with it and see where it goes and what other interest you get. Test the waters with some of the other WMA groups to see what they think.

Mike

I can do a variety of portrayals: no need to accomodate me specifically... I think the point is that having something to hang it on will draw more people from the LH side out: a Saint's day fair would work very well... material compromises are what they are. I think most wasters are too heavy, and would actually prefer rattan to most of what I've seen there. Similarly, even if I had appropriate harness for a couple of teh portrayals I could do... well, even in full harness with rattan, nobody's going to want to play against a Taborite War Flail.

Ahh, I misunderstood the soft leather then...all well and good.
If I could do this I would be more than willing to be a "lowly warrior" playing at dice and doing my best to avoid the eye of my troop seargent. Extra detail comes to those who are seen! Or maybe even be the seargent looking for those slackers that are behind the tent playing cards and other games of chance.
Of course its all in the timeing and location but thats how my life runs these days, plan and hope for the best.

Well, here is what I think: I think that a tipping point on this sort of thing is near. Someone has to just lay it on the line and make something happen. Look at the history and the current state of "playing medieval." And let's be blunt.

The SCA does a great job of erecting a big tent and those who do chivalric combat within the framework of the SCA really capture a certain spirit of non-cooperative full speed striking, but there are other deficiencies. I say that there is true and deep worth in the give and take of hard blows under the SCA Rules of the Lists.

Renaissance Faires are derived from Southern California hippy culture--which was wonderful!--but now they have become corporate schemes for the most part--sellers of chintz and lies. And besides, they aren't the right era for those interested in the late middle ages--where it is at, from my standpoint.

Living History is wonderfully adept at applied research--groups dedicated to nailing down portrayals and looking like they have stepped out of paintings have inspired me for years, and led me to this point, but they are scattered, precious jewels, like too little butter spead on toast.

WMA practicioners are technical experts, book readers and deep thinkers, practicioners of the technical and even applied aspects of medieval martial arts, but much of their activity, though of very great merit, lacks soul. It doesn't touch the aesthetic.

Merchants are getting to the point now where they understand the medieval aesthetic. They understand how to translate illustrations, paintings, statuary, effigies, and brasses into something physical--to create the physical objects that make the impression.

There is a growing stable of musicians out there to establish a background sound and entertainment focus. Groups like Wolgemut exploded onto the U.S. scene five years ago, and continue to wow audiences. Bards like Owain Phyfe hit, sink and spackle the nail, so to speak. Ensembles like Cantiga capture the mood and aesthetic sufficiently to transport one back in time. And these are just a few musicians out there, plying their trade.

I hold, personally, that all one must do is hold onto all of these concepts loosely, use them as ingredients, and a wonderful pottage can result. As I like to say: "Gather unto you all that is good, and all that sucketh, repel far away from you and all you own."

Mike, I am going to approach WMA groups and salees in the west. I would appreciate you and other WMA practicioners helping me out and vouching for me, if you have a voice in that community. Though I have been very active here, the WMA community doesn't know me from Adam. I personally think that the WMA community could profit considerably by engaging in a little re-enactment/living history. How do I get in touch with the WMA groups and salees in the U.S.?

Russ, your taborite war flail would scare folks off! But probably not as much as a war waggon! I personally think this sort of event might really please you. To me it sounds like you have a penchant for capturing a certain flavor, which would be interesting and appreciated.

I don't know how to resolve the rattan issue. It's a dang forgiving material...I think the best way is for people to make leather-sheathed bastons out of the stuff. Just skip the duct tape. Just because folks are using rattan doesn't mean they have to use incorrect practice. There is a lot of evidence that medieval deeds of arms were undertaken with "safe practice"--ie: combatants would aim for armored areas or slash and swing their weapons rather than adopt the accepted lethal method of the day--thrusting.

I say this: if more than a pair of people show up with correct full harness--outside of my own Compagnons ( http://www.mron.org ), I'll drink three healths to them, anyway--and we'll figure it out on the spot! I'm not slow on my feet, and the kinds of people who build full and complete harnesses have passed through so many siftings that they think pretty much the same anyway.

If there's one thing that gives me hope, it's that perhaps, if the fates allow, when I come back from Iraq, in the spring of 2007, or if I can figure out when my mid-tour leave is going to happen, in the summer or fall of 2006, we can have an event that draws the best of each world together in what we find common.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

P.S.: Lachlann, I think you'd have a blast! I am thinking of folks who have had training in grappling having a safe "ask word" and a safe "assent word" for impromptu unscripted, unchoreographed grapples. For example, some infantrymen who have all been through the grappling training and done some free bouting are rolling knucklebones out behind the tents--all dressed to the part, mind you!--and one of them has been having the worst of it...he looks to the fellow whose dice have been good, jerks his head up with a grin, says "Rassle?" The other says "Yeah!" and the two just go at it, with their fellows present watching to make sure that things go well, and to assure those who come upon it that indeed this is an agreed-upon event.

Alas, some day my appearance < both field and civilian > will allow me to participate.

Sixtus

Sixtus, you have got to be kidding me. Your soft kit is great, and your armor is within a stone's throw if not there already, for a 1300-1340 kit, isn't it?

PM me.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

The following is tongue in cheek:

Perhaps if you have women attendees who normally fight in WMA or SCA, they could be common women having a catfight out back of the tents? Or perhaps a spunky lass forcefully spurns someone who's getting too fresh with her?

Did women ever use the quarterstaff?

This is a good start, I think. Repel what sucketh, gather what is good. I definitely hew to the opinion, though, that no hard and fast rules should be made up regarding materials for smacking each other around... imho a rough guideline like "no sharps" and "stay with period materials" (which is in some ways a pity, b/c Lance Chan out in Hong Kong really does make excellent boffers), would be a better way to start out. There are some wasters I don't want getting swung anywhere near me without full harness on, and others that are every bit as safe as your average bit of rattan, and maybe safer (splintering seems only an issue to me for large engagements)...a lot more fun may be had by more folks, if they each bring their ideas of safe gear, and let them all stew together.

Jehan de Pelham wrote:Sixtus, you have got to be kidding me. Your soft kit is great, and your armor is within a stone's throw if not there already, for a 1300-1340 kit, isn't it?

PM me.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

But what you don't realize, I have Ti, plastic, polyester velvteen all over my stuff . Trust me , when I say I don't fit, I realy don't

Sixtus: Oh, it's too bad about that. I know that one major hurdle for people who are interested and who primarily participate in medievalism in the SCA is going to be people who have very complete kits in the SCA knowing that their material choices, though fine and even superior for the SCA, are inappropriate for a high fidelity or living history venue. I hope in the case of people whose soft kits are there, or close, that they won't consider the fact that their hard kit won't work a dealbreaker--there's lots to do in living history besides engage in combat.

Flittie: That could be fun! I don't know too much about the quarterstaff and its use in the middle ages. Was there a manual of instruction proper to the era from 1300-1500?

Russ: Agreed! This was my initial position, basically to allow people to bring their stuff and decide among themselves, to find consensus and increase understanding.

I have received private communication suggesting that it's important not to make the mistake of thinking that just because the rules and concepts I have suggested differ from those used by the SCA, that they're any more accurate--a position I absolutely agree with. The customs and concepts given come from a variety of sources, from a variety of eras within that 1300-1500 timeframe, and formal combats changed fairly dramatically within that time.

So, let it be said that in this, too, from my limited understanding I impose artificial combinations of several conventions of combat! That said, the aesthetic is improved I believe, and as long as we examine the texts we have from the times and always increase understanding, instead of relying on these base premises which help to provide a common starting point, error can be reduced and hewing to a compromise just because it is easier may be lessened.

I have also received a PM discussing the different WMA styles which could be addressed and which would give attendees who are interested in learning about WMA an outlet, no matter how they come, from basic soft kit to full harness: grappling for people of all armor levels from unarmored to fully armored (though I would not be willing to grapple with someone in full kit if I were unarmored), blossfechten ("shirt-fighting") for those in soft kit and those in infantry harness, and harnischfecten ("armored fighting") for those who have the proper full harness. I have received some pointers on possible instructors for each of these arts, and I'll ask them if they might be interested.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

I've grappled with men in full harness while in softer kit. No.Fun.(tm)