Ok, what would stop me (or any one else)

[Ratslayer]

Rev. George, what your proposing could happen. There really aren't any real barriers in place to prevent this from happening. There isn't need, in my opinion, because a person who did this would be reigning over very few people during their time as crown. Then they would have no respect and probably never allowed to fight in a crown again. So what would you gain by cheating? A title that none would respect, six months (or four) of hell and a reputation you could never overcome unless you changed your name, your kingdom, your armor, your consort and well your entire existence. So no rule is in place to prevent this from happening, just a large group of people who's participation allows you to be crown.

Kelwin

[Larissa]

I am horrifed that this was brought up, but since it has been I will speak as I was Avery's wife and consort at the time, and stood at his side through all this.

Avery and Edward entered the field. Avery attempted to greet Edward as a friend, they had some bad personality issues, and tho Avery was always open, friendly and generous towards Edward, I suppose Edward just didn't feel he could return those gestures of welcome. Keep in mind Avery was in his early 20s and Edward near 40. That is additional perspective that deserves merit.

Edward was fighting in a very disturbing way. Avery actually jumped and rolled out of a few very frightening advances from Edward. I was holding our tiny baby and quite terrified. This was almost 18 years ago. It will always be fresh in my mind.

Avery called a hold and removed his helm, attempting to reason with Edward about the fight, he felt it was out of control and unsafe, he felt Edward was displaying real rage upon the field. I will back him up in this with my last breath. I was standing upon the field at his side, and trust me, I have a memory that is eternal.

Avery walked off the field and left the list of his own accord. We left after the final round which was very sedate, and won by someone we both loved, Brion Thornbird. We left to our hotel as I had become ill from the tension and upset, and I honestly feared Edward and his temper.

The next day we met friends in Circus Circus, one of them Yaroslav the Persistant who asked if we would be at the circles of peerage that day after breakfast. Avery declined saying please give our apologizes, my Lady is ill, and I was. I wasn't long from childbirth and the stress of the day took it's toll upon me.

The vile ugliness of the next year of manipulated politics not only scarred my belief in the honor of some crowns and some men, but took it's toll upon Avery and I as well. The grief and pain we endured as a result of what I know to this day to be a day of shock and horror to him as well as many of our friends and loved ones in Caid.

God Bless Duke Guy of Castle Kirk and other brave knights of Caid who fought to free my husband from the ridiculous circus that ensued that year.

It tore apart the very friendship which was the foundation of our Marriage, not our of any fault of his or mine, but because we were young and innocent of the ways some choose to manipulate and hurt, we learned our lessons well sadly. I belived in his honor that day and all days before and after and always will. Tread carefully when you speak of this, because I watched the political wants of lesser men tear his very heart apart. And I will defend him with all I have.

If you find this offensive I do not apoligize to you. In fact I insist that if you continue you speak of this here in a public forum, you consider what this memory has done to me, on the nearing even our son's 18th birthday. and consider what some evil men will do for their own goals sake even in a game based upon courtesy and chivalry.

Conviction, without Compassion becomes Cruelty..

Duchess Larissa Alwynn Clarewoode of Aquitaine, OL, Op
Queen to Avery 1 of Caid
Queen to Elric 1 of Atenveldt
Queen to Duncan 1 of Ansteorra

[Morgan]

I'm curious too. In Ansteorra, Ducal Perogative means you can withdraw anytime from a crown without loss of honor. When it's USUALLY is when a Duke faces someone they would be happy to bend a knee to, and they feel that they've done their part in ensuring the quality of the list, they withdraw. It's considered an honor to be "Ducaled out to" here.

I've heard something about kingdoms (ENTIRE hearsay) that allow Dukes to ENTER tournies at any time, which they do when "bad things" are going on, they get rid of the "bad things" and then they withdraw.

[Koredono]

If someone enters Crown, and is blatantly cheating, it is within the Crown's right to throw them out on the spot (actually they can throw anyone out for anything they like pretty much).

And yet, I've never heard of this being done, let alone seen it done; perhaps banning them in future Crowns, but never throwing them out in the middle of a Tourney. For that matter, I've been involved in Crowns where the Crown knew before the Tourney started that so-and-so was almost certainly going to be "thick" (and yes, this is based on first-hand knowledge, conversations I've had with sitting royalty before their Crown started), and yet accepted their letter to fight in Crown anyway.

Also, I've been led to believe that this is true *until* the finals, that if you toss out one of the combattants at that point, the entire tourney must be re-fought. Now, this solves the problem of making sure that someone who's cheating doesn't win, but it is also grossly unfair to anyone else who did well in the tourney, and a logistical nightmare.

[Hrogn]

I'm curious too. In Ansteorra, Ducal Perogative means you can withdraw anytime from a crown without loss of honor. When it's USUALLY is when a Duke faces someone they would be happy to bend a knee to, and they feel that they've done their part in ensuring the quality of the list, they withdraw. It's considered an honor to be "Ducaled out to" here.

I've heard something about kingdoms (ENTIRE hearsay) that allow Dukes to ENTER tournies at any time, which they do when "bad things" are going on, they get rid of the "bad things" and then they withdraw.

I was referring to the SCA legend about how Dukes can ENTER and LEAVE Crown lists at any point. I thought that everybody had heard the one about the Duke who armoured up and sat next to the Crown list fields throughout Crown to make sure it was clean. Then after some guy he considered a rhino loses out, he takes off his gear with some mention of how he guesses he won't need to enter the list today and returns to his camp.

Maybe just urban legend around here and nowhere else. My apologies if that is true.

Hrogn

[Morgan]

I'd heard that too - not the urban legend, true or not, but the notion of it being legal.

[Koredono]

I got to thinking about the "explaining SCA blow calling" thread, and got to wondering, aside from my good intentions and honor, what would stop me from entering crown list and just shucking blows till i got a crown on my head? Now I have to be able to throw a blow that wont be shucked, which I'm certain I could (esp witha 2 handed weapon) and I'd have to have enough painkillers, armour, or nerve damage to withstand the beating of a dozen pissed off A-game fighters cranking it to 14, but other than that-

What stops a person? What would stop a person from doing that to advance thier agenda? could they then ensure that only thier buddies could fight in crown (or jsut weigh the contest in thier favour- counted blows to 100, must fight lefthanded, etc)

Essentially what keeps a coup from happening?

-+G

In reality, absolutely nothing, barring being too injured or tired to inflict a telling blow on an opponent, or direct intervention from the Crown or marshallate. Of course, being at least a 'B'-list fighter helps considerably, otherwise you'll just never land a blow at all on some opponents.

People have spoken of 'social pressure' and such, but for the person who wants to win that badly, especially if they hang out with a group that prizes apparent success on the field above all other considerations, attempts at ostracization will have little to no effect. I've seen it with my own eyes: those who have clearly gotten there by being thicker and not being the best combattant on the field that day (in at least one case, significant damage to both helmet and body armor that was not there when the tourney began), and because there was no intervention, a lesser man was given accolades that day he had not rightfully earned.

[morristh]

I have heard the rumor man times that some kingdoms are run by the Ducal Perogative principle. The way it works is that in kingdom X, if you want to be King and have never been, then you had better be acceptable to the Dukes. Cause if not, many will fight to keep you out, then withdraw after the job is done. I have no idea if this really works this way or not, but it certianly would be easy enough to do I would think. Dukes dont usally get there by accident.

Tim

[Koredono]

I'm curious too. In Ansteorra, Ducal Perogative means you can withdraw anytime from a crown without loss of honor. When it's USUALLY is when a Duke faces someone they would be happy to bend a knee to, and they feel that they've done their part in ensuring the quality of the list, they withdraw. It's considered an honor to be "Ducaled out to" here.

I've heard something about kingdoms (ENTIRE hearsay) that allow Dukes to ENTER tournies at any time, which they do when "bad things" are going on, they get rid of the "bad things" and then they withdraw.

I was referring to the SCA legend about how Dukes can ENTER and LEAVE Crown lists at any point. I thought that everybody had heard the one about the Duke who armoured up and sat next to the Crown list fields throughout Crown to make sure it was clean. Then after some guy he considered a rhino loses out, he takes off his gear with some mention of how he guesses he won't need to enter the list today and returns to his camp.

Maybe just urban legend around here and nowhere else. My apologies if that is true.

Hrogn

I'd heard that that was in fact the case in the West, but nowhere else, and wondered whether it was also the case in An Tir. And the stories I've heard have had Dukes (but no names given) actually entering a Crown after its begun, 'taking out' someone bad, then retiring the field because they didn't really want to be king again, they just didn't want 'so-and-so' to be king (for whatever reasons).


For those who are curious, the other definitions of Ducal Prerogative I've heard are:

Originally, it was the right to not fight in Crown, having done his duty for his kingdom by sitting the throne twice already

Later, it allowed one to basically have the 'last word' in a curia or order meeting, as a sign of respect for the experience of having been on the throne (at least) twice.

[Caspar]

<snip>

I think one of the things that must be kept in mind, when discussing active marshalling, especially when it's "all on the line" like Crown, is that people are going to be a LOT more picky about what they do or don't take.

Something that would have been "Yeah.. I'll take that" in practice, or melee, will become "Nope.. not quite there.." though those watching might not notice it.

<snip>
Maeryk

What? A shot is either good or its not. I don't get to base my calibration on what is at stake do I? Man, I keep doing this SCA thing all wrong

Caspar

[Maeryk]

What? A shot is either good or its not. I don't get to base my calibration on what is at stake do I? Man, I keep doing this SCA thing all wrong

Heh. FInd someone in your local group who has fought crown. Go over to them at practice, and play a few "practice" rounds with them. Then ask them to play with you like you are fighting the finals in crown.

Then come back and tell me "a good shot is a good shot".

Honestly, I chalk it up to adrenaline.. just the same as the guy you play with night at practice might shrug what he takes at practice in a tourney against you, and not even _REALIZE_ he is doing it.

I might, in practice, take a shot because I was _STUPID_ and allowed it in, even if it was iffy on force. I probably would NOT do that in a tourney, unless it was _good_ on force.

Maeryk

[St. George]

Boy was I lead to believe otherwise-

My apoligies.

Alaric

[Larissa]

Thank you for apologizing, I means a great deal.

Simple written words here cannot even in a meager way express the horrible pain, anxiety and loss surrounding that time in Avery's life and in mine.

Most of us who were there do not speak of this incident as it caused so much hurt in many lives.

We just think of the wonderful reign that Brion had with Alessandra and I keep in my heart my remembrances of Caid as the place which taught me about grace and beauty, and good traditions.

If you ever want to hear the unabridged addition, come look me up with a large bottle of tequila and some salt and limes, but the bottle better not say Juan or Jose on it, because I am a tequila snob.

Much affection,

Larissa


"Boy was I lead to believe otherwise-

My apoligies.

Alaric "

[Mord]

Your Grace, Larissa,

I, too, did not know the entire story. I am sorry if I have opened up an old wound with my praise.

Mord.

[Larissa]

Thank you, it is one that will never heal, but it is the one that taught me the true evil that people can create.

For Avery's sake, consider that we have been divorced for over 15 years now, and how many men can say that an ex wife would come to his defense so soundly.

That event in my life taught me to never pull any punches, to speak my mind openly so as never to be mistaken, and most importantly that not everyone plays in the SCA for the sake of the courtesy and chivalry we are supposed to hold so dear. It is an oath to some, a mask to others.

I have kept silent all these years because to bring all of what happened to light would show many soiled hands in this. And for me, it wasn't worth the burden of what these disputes and happenings do to those players in the communities we create with so much love. There are in other words, too many people, very kind innocent people who deserve to go on playing without these dark clouds.

Larissa

[Aaron]

Good!

It sounds like there are adequate checks and balances, just in case!

I like that.

Your friend,

-Aaron

[Alcyoneus]

I once watched a Crown Tourney in which after the file blow was accepted, in a room of about 300 people, 1 person clapped.

[freiman the minstrel]

The problem with the scenario that you suggest is that the MiC could say that, but the fighter can then appeal...to the crown who's standing right there. It's his Crown Tourney, afteralll. Therefore, it would still be up to the crown, not his representative.

I agree Morgan.

The question did specifically ask,

"but where exactly in the rules can the M.I.C. cite to back up the card pull?"

And I did include,

This is probably why The Crown is always present at Crown List.

You are, of course, correct. The crown is right there to receive the appeal.

I can think of a couple of scenarios where the King's Marshall might be needed to do the job without the king being involved, either because he (or the queen) was felt that it was better to just say "We choose not to hear an appeal" or perhaps because he was away at that particular moment.

If (just as a "for instance") the king were in Iraq, that marshal would probably be honored to stand between Her Royal Majesty and an adrenaline hyped fighter who felt like she stood between him and a crown.

It's just stupid scenarios, but the rules would cover that.

I was just answering the question. And at this point, we're splitting those hairs quite thin.

f

[Aaron]

I once watched a Crown Tourney in which after the file blow was accepted, in a room of about 300 people, 1 person clapped.

Ouch...now THAT is social pressure.

I've really enjoyed tournaments where at the end I'm cheering for BOTH worthy fighters, and they're full to the brim on honor.

I've seen shots accepted, and all the Champion has to do is not say anything and they've won...and they say, "M'Lord, that was slightly flat/tippy/nothing on it....can we try again."

I LOVE those fights where it is that level of grace, sportsmanship and honor.

I saw that more than a couple of times at West Crown. It was neat!

Honestly, I chalk it up to adrenaline.. just the same as the guy you play with night at practice might shrug what he takes at practice in a tourney against you, and not even _REALIZE_ he is doing it.

I'm one of those.

If I'm not actively focusing on feeling the shots, I won't feel anything but the higher end shots.

I'm telling all my opponents that I'm a bit thick now, and ask them to throw a good shot, and if it lands and I don't know, just inform me and I'll accept it. I pray to God that I'm not a rhino, and instead just a bit thick and oblivious.

-Aaron

[Alcyoneus]

I once watched a Crown Tourney in which after the file blow was accepted, in a room of about 300 people, 1 person clapped.

Ouch...now THAT is social pressure.


-Aaron

One person is said to have told him, "I'll talk to you again after you've won your first Crown."

[losthelm]

sir Thorstenn

I have met a few people in the socity that recived there belt with out the approval of the chiverlry.
when asking about there pertisipation I was told that they where elivated at the whim of the crown.


Please explain, maybe you worded it wrong ??? I received my belt with the honor of the council and Crown.

[Murdock]

"What? A shot is either good or its not. I don't get to base my calibration on what is at stake do I? Man, I keep doing this SCA thing all wrong

Caspar "

Your doin better than me LPD


"jus keep punchin' Appollo"

[Christian1095]

I think it all comes down to how we win and retain our renown.

Very few are willing to go up to someone after a bout and say "WTF" in regards to their callibration. There is a small group of people that I have asked to do so if they ever see that sort of thing from me. And that committment goes both ways. However, there is a bunch of years of trust built up there. I don't presume to have that sort of bond with everyone.

In that past, I've had the ugly talk where I have said that I thought a person's callibration is out of alignment with everyone else's... but that's a lot different that "Hey Bob, quit cheating please" - There are really only two or three cases where I've had that discussion in the past couple of years..... so it's a trigger you don't pull lightly. And there is no guarantee that you'll have a positive effect on the individual either.... If I can't change their mind... why waste my energy.... eventually they will learn.

If a guy is being thick in the lists (or should I say, I perceive his callibration to be higher than the norm) - not fighting him really dosen't fix the problem. It just leaves the next guy to put him down. So, I suck it up, swing for the bleachers and put my faith in God that wrongness won't be rewarded. But if I quit the field without fighting him, sure I'll send a statement, but it's using a nuke when the guy's leg armor could just suck and not be allowing him to take blows -- so what sort of damage would I do to his renown if I'm wrong and he's just having a bad day? That being said, a couple of bad days and you're renown is trashed....

Also, very few people stop a bout and ask about a shot that they perceived as having landed. If they do, our culture is to think "what a whiner" and discount their character.... Again, if I ask how something came in during a fight, it's going to happen at practice... I really just have to trust my opponent to do right in tourney.... That being said, there are some folks whose head I just don't target.... instead I focus my attention on their ribs/arm/shoulder.... It leaves me less disappointed if they don't take it. I will attempt to take what I normally do and throw tonnage at places that don't have much armour. Just because I don't think I can fix them, dosen't mean that I have to lay down to them either.

Along those lines... I've heard it said that "the only one who can judge a blow is the man in the armour" - I'll buy that for one shot... (I once had a night where Duke Ragnarr COULDN'T HIT ME IN THE LEG HARD ENOUGH... I was aware of it and so was he... we never got angry though because it was such a freak thing.... At one point, I stuck my leg out and watched him deliver a really stout blow... but I NEVER felt it... We chalked it up to weirdness and it's never happened again) So for the one time strange thing... sure I can't be the judge.. strange things happen.... However,there are those fighters who cause that statement to be made over and over again.... WE (our culture) do very little to affect thier behavior and perhaps this is something we should change... But, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has a duck's bill and yellow feathers... well at some point we need to be better about calling it a duck.... (note, that's DUCK not DUX ) And I think many have been called foul in private but are ignorant of thier renown... Think about it... What knights in your kingdom are thick? What Unbelts? Have YOU told them what you think? Their renown is known even if it's not spraypainted in John Deere Green on a watertower... By that same token, MY renown is known much better to others than it is to me... so it's up to me to act right....

Ultimately, here is what I'm left with.....
1. I will try very hard not to be a cheater.

2. I will foster what I consider to be right thinking behavior in those who train with me.

3. If I find that I've missed a blow (which I'm sure will happen from time to time.... nobody is without fault) it is my DUTY AS A KNIGHT AND AS A HUMAN to do what I can to make it right. That might mean that I march up to the MOL table and ask to have the bout given to my opponent... It might mean that I search them out later and make a public apology... It might mean that I find their Lady and apologize to her... whatever is necessary to make things right.

4. When asked, I will give my opinion to a fighter about MY perception of thier renown. Where possible, I will give actionable feedback.

Just my $0.02

Sir Christian
~Atlantia~

[Kilkenny]

<snip>

I think one of the things that must be kept in mind, when discussing active marshalling, especially when it's "all on the line" like Crown, is that people are going to be a LOT more picky about what they do or don't take.

Something that would have been "Yeah.. I'll take that" in practice, or melee, will become "Nope.. not quite there.." though those watching might not notice it.

<snip>
Maeryk

What? A shot is either good or its not. I don't get to base my calibration on what is at stake do I? Man, I keep doing this SCA thing all wrong

Caspar

I don't think you're quite understanding, Caspar. There are many combattants who compete for Crowns who are highly skilled at this game. When they compete in Crown tournaments (or whatever tournament it may be that gets their full focus and attention) they bring their top game. This doesn't just mean that they are striking with precision, speed and power, it also means that they are acknowledging blows with a similar precision.

A blow that in practice might be accepted largely because they should have blocked it better in Tourney might not be accepted because, iffy block or not, the blow didn't land good.
My point being that it is not necessarily a "higher" calibration, so much as it is a more "exacting" one.

Gavin

[Kilkenny]

If someone enters Crown, and is blatantly cheating, it is within the Crown's right to throw them out on the spot (actually they can throw anyone out for anything they like pretty much).

And yet, I've never heard of this being done, let alone seen it done; perhaps banning them in future Crowns, but never throwing them out in the middle of a Tourney. For that matter, I've been involved in Crowns where the Crown knew before the Tourney started that so-and-so was almost certainly going to be "thick" (and yes, this is based on first-hand knowledge, conversations I've had with sitting royalty before their Crown started), and yet accepted their letter to fight in Crown anyway.

Also, I've been led to believe that this is true *until* the finals, that if you toss out one of the combattants at that point, the entire tourney must be re-fought. Now, this solves the problem of making sure that someone who's cheating doesn't win, but it is also grossly unfair to anyone else who did well in the tourney, and a logistical nightmare.

Koredono, you have better information than this. Remember that Aethelmarc was part of the East, and a certain Crown in the Debatable Lands.

Gavin

[Lachlann]

If (just as a "for instance") the king were in Iraq, that marshal would probably be honored to stand between Her Royal Majesty and an adrenaline hyped fighter who felt like she stood between him and a crown.
f

Frieman I can think of entire households who would also stand up in that scenario, I can also think of a certain minstrel who would be leading that charge..

Lachlann

[Marvin]

I think it all comes down to how we win and retain our renown.

Exactly what I was thinking and...

That being said, a couple of bad days and you're renown is trashed....

I've seen it gone after two questionable calls in one tourney...

You just said everything I was thinking, and a whole lot more.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

When I watch a tourney, I often see the last two guys fighting in a way that is not very similar to what I have seen the rest of the day.
Sure, they are the finalists- they are the best out there.
But sometimes calibration goes through the roof. Not cheating- suddenly the game has changed. This is bullshit.
The discrepency is there. Where is the problem? Are the less-skilled not capable of hitting hard enough?
I mean, was every blow that was taken by those who have been eliminated of the quality required in the last round? Have the finalists kept their opponents from taking blows that were not of the caliber expected during this final round?
Sir x and Sir Y are the finalists. They start going all out. It's amazing to watch. They are struck many times- big bangs. BIG bangs. No good, no good, no good.
Now, have both these knights won all of their fights with the quality of blow that they are now expecting? The monster-perfect blow? Every guy they beat all day- they hit them with the exact blow now required when the prize is on the line?

This doesn't always happen, but when it does it looks bad. Nobody is cheating, but if the blow expected by the best should be delivered by the best, and this is also not always appropriate- which is why it probably happens in the first place. So, force-levels and calibration must be situational.

I am sure that Duke Michael expected exactly the type of blow he delivered in the recent Atlantian Crown Tourney. He is famous for his predictability.

[cblackthorne]

If someone enters Crown, and is blatantly cheating, it is within the Crown's right to throw them out on the spot (actually they can throw anyone out for anything they like pretty much).

And yet, I've never heard of this being done, let alone seen it done; perhaps banning them in future Crowns, but never throwing them out in the middle of a Tourney. For that matter, I've been involved in Crowns where the Crown knew before the Tourney started that so-and-so was almost certainly going to be "thick" (and yes, this is based on first-hand knowledge, conversations I've had with sitting royalty before their Crown started), and yet accepted their letter to fight in Crown anyway.

I saw it done at the second (or maybe third) Outlands Crown Tournament. A knight had been ignoring blows for most of the day. They were so blatant and obvious that the crowd started to show disapproval. Finally, the king stepped onto the field and told him he was out.

Thats the only time Ive ever seen it done.

[Christian1095]

I am sure that Duke Michael expected exactly the type of blow he delivered in the recent Atlantian Crown Tourney. He is famous for his predictability.

That being said, Duke Michael maybe threw 15 blows all day and I didn't see anything ever really hit him at all. There was one pass where I acutally saw something make contact with Michael. Jonathan Blackbow threw a shot at Michael's back. Mike rolled into the shot and picked it up high on his shield - not a total block, but enough to render the blow insubstantial (from my viewpoint)... then threw tonnage at Jonathan which was accepted without complaint. If that expectation of equallity in blow force was there, I certainly didn't see it because nobody came close to delivering a blow to His Grace in any of the fights I saw.

Sir Vitus, I attempt to throw much harder than I take. My hope is that by doing so I will have a more positive experiance within this activity. Any opponent is more likely to take "Good + 30%" than just good. My goal is to give you something YOU feel good laying down to.... Wether I go just at that level or 50% in excess of what you need - the end result is that you feel good calling me the victor. Also, by throwing harder, I don't get my feelings hurt when my opponent says "Light" nearly as often. Regardless of wether this is the right way to be or not... it's been an effective strategy for me.

Sir Christian
~Atlantia~

[blackbow]

clarification only...

...actually that shot at the back was a fake. The shot that made contact was the one into his face from the bardiche but he was fading away from it while throwing a wrap shot, both things I'd never seen His Highness do, so I just assumed he wouldn't do either of them. It was pretty funny afterwards... I walked up to His Grace and said "wow, Your Grace, I didn't know you knew HOW to throw a wrap shot." He laughed about as loudly as I've ever heard him laugh at anything.

But yeah, I think there were all of two people that laid stick on him that day. So I'm happy.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

I am sure that Duke Michael expected exactly the type of blow he delivered in the recent Atlantian Crown Tourney. He is famous for his predictability.

That being said, Duke Michael maybe threw 15 blows all day and I didn't see anything ever really hit him at all. There was one pass where I acutally saw something make contact with Michael. Jonathan Blackbow threw a shot at Michael's back. Mike rolled into the shot and picked it up high on his shield - not a total block, but enough to render the blow insubstantial (from my viewpoint)... then threw tonnage at Jonathan which was accepted without complaint. If that expectation of equallity in blow force was there, I certainly didn't see it because nobody came close to delivering a blow to His Grace in any of the fights I saw.

Sir Vitus, I attempt to throw much harder than I take. My hope is that by doing so I will have a more positive experiance within this activity. Any opponent is more likely to take "Good + 30%" than just good. My goal is to give you something YOU feel good laying down to.... Wether I go just at that level or 50% in excess of what you need - the end result is that you feel good calling me the victor. Also, by throwing harder, I don't get my feelings hurt when my opponent says "Light" nearly as often. Regardless of wether this is the right way to be or not... it's been an effective strategy for me.

Sir Christian
~Atlantia~

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Duke Palymar once won an huge Midrealm Crown list without being struck once.
I have no doubt that Duke Michael did exactly as you have described. Bedford is famous, of course, for being at the extreme end of the ability scale when it comes to the amount of force he can produce. I have no friggin' idea how he does it, or how he teaches other people to do it.
He is also famous for being hard to "kill". Since he throws nothing but "tonnage" and takes nothing but the same, I have always felt it sort of silly when people complained about him. Of course, he has shaken many brainpans in his time, and some people just never get used to that.
I have been hit a few times so hard that I have suffered instant migraine headaches. Have I ever done this to anyone? I am not sure, but nobody has ever complained to me about a sword blow to the head. To the legs- yes, but that was when my arms were twice the size they are now.

But I am not so sure that Duke Michael's approach and philosophy are exactly healthy for SCA combat when it comes to keeping lots of people in the game. I know that Duke Paul B/Paul Porter has worked very hard to make sure that what we do does not get watered down, and tried to make sure that we retain some degree of martial legitimacy in the face of the limitations of our weapons, but my problem is that in my 20 years I have seen maybe 100 people in my town alone give up fighting because of problems with force- when they finally encounter a High Gamer they say "F**K THIS!"

Now, many of us say "We don't want the type of person who would complain about that, anyway."

So it's hard to reconcile all of these views and appraoches.

[SirCathal]

I have the opposite problem. I always call light shots when i probably shouldn't because i'm a new fighter and just learning. I would rather leave the field too soon than get a bad reputation. I worry about my calibration more on the practice field because I'm trying to get it "Right".

In regards to the topic ... noone can stop you from doing that. However, logic dictates that by employing those tactics (not taking blows) you have proven NOTHING by your fighting. If you can't win it the right way .. why even bother playing?

[Caspar]

I don't think you're quite understanding, Caspar. There are many combattants who compete for Crowns who are highly skilled at this game. When they compete in Crown tournaments (or whatever tournament it may be that gets their full focus and attention) they bring their top game. This doesn't just mean that they are striking with precision, speed and power, it also means that they are acknowledging blows with a similar precision.

A blow that in practice might be accepted largely because they should have blocked it better in Tourney might not be accepted because, iffy block or not, the blow didn't land good.
My point being that it is not necessarily a "higher" calibration, so much as it is a more "exacting" one.

Gavin

Firstly, please forgive me for being a bit disingenious. I made my comment quickly, and posted it from a stance of niavete that was feigned. Actually I have fought in 2 crown lists myself here in Meridies finishing 3rd a couple of years ago, and 2nd in our most recent. Personally, I actually probably have a higher calibration in practice, (especially when training other fighters, forcing them to throw a bit better and more precise) than I do in Tourneys. Because the stakes are so high in a Crown tourney , I try to be more cognizant and aware of everything that might be good and try to call shots aggressively. Perhaps I never will win a crown list fighting in this manner, but if I do win, I hope to do so in a way that no opponent, spectator, or video tape will have issue with it. Please note that I am in Meridies and am fully aware that OUR WAY (TM) is very much at odds with the rest of the world. I can't apologize for my birth or training, but I will not presume to tell anyone that I am right in this and they are wrong.

Sir Caspar
Meridies

[SirCathal]

I don't think you're quite understanding, Caspar. There are many combattants who compete for Crowns who are highly skilled at this game. When they compete in Crown tournaments (or whatever tournament it may be that gets their full focus and attention) they bring their top game. This doesn't just mean that they are striking with precision, speed and power, it also means that they are acknowledging blows with a similar precision.

A blow that in practice might be accepted largely because they should have blocked it better in Tourney might not be accepted because, iffy block or not, the blow didn't land good.
My point being that it is not necessarily a "higher" calibration, so much as it is a more "exacting" one.

Gavin

Firstly, please forgive me for being a bit disingenious. I made my comment quickly, and posted it from a stance of niavete that was feigned. Actually I have fought in 2 crown lists myself here in Meridies finishing 3rd a couple of years ago, and 2nd in our most recent. Personally, I actually probably have a higher calibration in practice, (especially when training other fighters, forcing them to throw a bit better and more precise) than I do in Tourneys. Because the stakes are so high in a Crown tourney , I try to be more cognizant and aware of everything that might be good and try to call shots aggressively. Perhaps I never will win a crown list fighting in this manner, but if I do win, I hope to do so in a way that no opponent, spectator, or video tape will have issue with it. Please note that I am in Meridies and am fully aware that OUR WAY (TM) is very much at odds with the rest of the world. I can't apologize for my birth or training, but I will not presume to tell anyone that I am right in this and they are wrong.

Sir Caspar
Meridies

Won't it mean THAT much more to you if you do win ... knowing that you made every effort to call a good blow if one happened. Or winning through such great defense that your opponents were unable to get a good shot. I know it would be in my case.