Ok, what would stop me (or any one else)

[Koredono]

Also, I've been led to believe that this is true *until* the finals, that if you toss out one of the combattants at that point, the entire tourney must be re-fought. Now, this solves the problem of making sure that someone who's cheating doesn't win, but it is also grossly unfair to anyone else who did well in the tourney, and a logistical nightmare.

Koredono, you have better information than this. Remember that Aethelmarc was part of the East, and a certain Crown in the Debatable Lands.

Gavin

I'm quite aware of that particular Crown, You Grace; even though it was before my time, I have heard many many of the stories.

All I can say it what was told me to at the time (of one of the incidents I'm thinking of) by our then-Earl Marshal: that if the Crown threw out one or both of the finalists, that the Tourney would have to be fought again from the beginning, without the two original finalists allowed to compete, and that simply did not seem feasible to the Crown. They may have been mistaken, or the rules may have changed in the intervening years, I don't know which.

[Apollonian]

snip

But I am not so sure that Duke Michael's approach and philosophy are exactly healthy for SCA combat when it comes to keeping lots of people in the game. I know that Duke Paul B/Paul Porter has worked very hard to make sure that what we do does not get watered down, and tried to make sure that we retain some degree of martial legitimacy in the face of the limitations of our weapons, but my problem is that in my 20 years I have seen maybe 100 people in my town alone give up fighting because of problems with force- when they finally encounter a High Gamer they say "F**K THIS!"

snip

I wonder how their expectations were set to begin with. It seems to me that this may be resolved by setting proper expectations. In my own kingdom, I have learned that when a new fighter is brought in by the "big boys" they stay longer more often than someone who's introduced to SCA fighting by, for lack of a better term, "lower echelon" fighters.

I have seen my share of flakes and "alka-seltzer boys", as well. The ratio of people Sir Finn and I have put in armor to those that have stayed is at least 10 to 1, and is not unlike the ratio of others I have talked to. They didn't stay because I think it was too much work for them to keep at it and "not winning" felt too much like losing, but we always set the expectation that this was full contact and you had to stand with the big boys.

[Hrogn]

snip

But I am not so sure that Duke Michael's approach and philosophy are exactly healthy for SCA combat when it comes to keeping lots of people in the game. I know that Duke Paul B/Paul Porter has worked very hard to make sure that what we do does not get watered down, and tried to make sure that we retain some degree of martial legitimacy in the face of the limitations of our weapons, but my problem is that in my 20 years I have seen maybe 100 people in my town alone give up fighting because of problems with force- when they finally encounter a High Gamer they say "F**K THIS!"

snip

I wonder how their expectations were set to begin with. It seems to me that this may be resolved by setting proper expectations. In my own kingdom, I have learned that when a new fighter is brought in by the "big boys" they stay longer more often than someone who's introduced to SCA fighting by, for lack of a better term, "lower echelon" fighters.

I have seen my share of flakes and "alka-seltzer boys", as well. The ratio of people Sir Finn and I have put in armor to those that have stayed is at least 10 to 1, and is not unlike the ratio of others I have talked to. They didn't stay because I think it was too much work for them to keep at it and "not winning" felt too much like losing, but we always set the expectation that this was full contact and you had to stand with the big boys.

But you also don't really want everyone to stay. The game isn't cut out for everybody. Some people just don't have the mentality to enjoy it. And for the sake of the game, we are better off to have those people move on than we are to water down our game to a place where they are happy. Because if we water it down, then it won't be interesting to the competitive natured people who excel at it now. Full contact martial arts aren't everybody's cup of tea. We need those people to self-sort when they join or we are just wasting their time before they meet up with a uber-duke bringing the "A" game in a tourney.

Now I am not saying we should beat the snot out of the newbies. We certainly shouldn't. But they do have to understand that over time, the game will progress to a full contact sport where they will be getting hit hard with bats. And they should be ok with that or this probably isn't the right sport for them.

Hrogn

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

Its the same in my experience. I'm very fortunate with the ratio of guys I bring in staying as opposed to the ones that dont. But still, out of 5 people that try it maybe 2 stick. And you know what, that's fine. The ones that stick are the ones that want it. I'd rather have ten guys with heart than 50 without.

[Heairn]

I'd rather have ten guys with heart than 50 without.

Quoted for Truth!

Malcolm

[Heairn]

I'd rather have ten guys with heart than 50 without.

Quoted for Truth!

Malcolm

[Kilkenny]

I don't think you're quite understanding, Caspar. There are many combattants who compete for Crowns who are highly skilled at this game. When they compete in Crown tournaments (or whatever tournament it may be that gets their full focus and attention) they bring their top game. This doesn't just mean that they are striking with precision, speed and power, it also means that they are acknowledging blows with a similar precision.

A blow that in practice might be accepted largely because they should have blocked it better in Tourney might not be accepted because, iffy block or not, the blow didn't land good.
My point being that it is not necessarily a "higher" calibration, so much as it is a more "exacting" one.

Gavin

Firstly, please forgive me for being a bit disingenious. I made my comment quickly, and posted it from a stance of niavete that was feigned. Actually I have fought in 2 crown lists myself here in Meridies finishing 3rd a couple of years ago, and 2nd in our most recent. Personally, I actually probably have a higher calibration in practice, (especially when training other fighters, forcing them to throw a bit better and more precise) than I do in Tourneys. Because the stakes are so high in a Crown tourney , I try to be more cognizant and aware of everything that might be good and try to call shots aggressively. Perhaps I never will win a crown list fighting in this manner, but if I do win, I hope to do so in a way that no opponent, spectator, or video tape will have issue with it. Please note that I am in Meridies and am fully aware that OUR WAY (TM) is very much at odds with the rest of the world. I can't apologize for my birth or training, but I will not presume to tell anyone that I am right in this and they are wrong.

Sir Caspar
Meridies

ahh.. When it comes to whether one chooses to call generously or closely it's a matter of preference, and right and wrong really shouldn't be involved.

I recall a good friend of mine some years ago who fought in several Crowns - at one point he asked me what I thought he should do in order to improve his performance in Crown. I told him, in essence, that he needed to increase his intensity - he responded along the lines that doint so would make it less fun, and he didn't want it to be less fun. Within a year or so, he had won Crown on *his* terms, and I really felt quite proud of him for that.

Part of my initial response comes from too many years of hearing the sideline voices calling people names when they've got zero basis for it. It's left a bad taste in my mouth.

Gavin

[raito]

It seems likely to me that the reason that those brought in by the 'higher' fighters, is that they are given the straight dope on what it is we do prior to actually doing it -- the selection may be taking place before those persons ever hit a list (and certainly Animal counts as 'higher' for this purpose, and likely others).

'Lower' fighters might not do such a good job of that.

I also suspect that the 'higher' are better about getting novices equipped and suchlike.

I recall a trip or two out to the backwoods of Northshield, where people essentially trained each other. In one particular case I recall, I blocked the other persons' first half-dozen or so blows, just to get a feel for how experienced they were. Then I laid in with a simple blow, and moderate calibration for us. Their eyes got really, really, big. We stopped and had a little talk and training.

Actually, I just fought that same person a couple weeks back. No more problem. It was quite enjoyable.

And yes, like others here, I try to keep what we do from getting watered down, as many (most who don't fight) want it to be. It is not for all, nor should it be. I want what we do to be transparent and accessible, not easy. Some people don't get that those are not the same things. Hell, there's people out there who think armour should be cheaper so more people can fight! On them, I use my Formula 1 argument: "I want to do Formula 1 racing. Someone should make it cheaper so that I can do it."

[Hew]

In the one crown tourney that I was able to witness, there were two opponents that were rhinohiding when they fought each other, sometime before the quarter-finals, IIRC. The King called a hold and approached the two to give them a quiet but very visible "talking-to". No cards pulled, and nobody tossed out of the list, but they behaved themselves after that.