The Armour Archive

I got to thinking about the "explaining SCA blow calling" thread, and got to wondering, aside from my good intentions and honor, what would stop me from entering crown list and just shucking blows till i got a crown on my head? Now I have to be able to throw a blow that wont be shucked, which I'm certain I could (esp witha 2 handed weapon) and I'd have to have enough painkillers, armour, or nerve damage to withstand the beating of a dozen pissed off A-game fighters cranking it to 14, but other than that-

What stops a person? What would stop a person from doing that to advance thier agenda? could they then ensure that only thier buddies could fight in crown (or jsut weigh the contest in thier favour- counted blows to 100, must fight lefthanded, etc)

Essentially what keeps a coup from happening?

-+G

well honor for one and the fact you would lose all respect as a fighter playing that way. not to mention if you dont play nice no one will play with you.

its simmalare to the few knights that recived there belt with approval from the order.
the royalty loses the respect of the order and the recipiant gains only the title and looses what respect they had from the order.

Social ostracism, probably.

Or... if you're not the least bit sneakty about it....

getting your green card pulled by the M.i.C. to the cheers of the crowd.

If someone enters Crown, and is blatantly cheating, it is within the Crown's right to throw them out on the spot (actually they can throw anyone out for anything they like pretty much).

The real problem arises when a really skilled fighter uses a "get out of jail free card," and shucks off one good blow. In an average fight between two top fighters, each is really only going to get one or two chances to hit the other, and if one blows off a shot, then he is that much more likely to win. If he is otherwise the best fighter in the tournament, the he will likely win the day. Likewise, that is why it is that much more likely that a top fighter with a higher calibration (even if he or she calls shots consistently, but consistently high) has a bigger chance of winning than someone who has a lower calibration, but the same skill level.

Alaric

Alaric is right. It only takes one.

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:If someone enters Crown, and is blatantly cheating, it is within the Crown's right to throw them out on the spot (actually they can throw anyone out for anything they like pretty much).

The real problem arises when a really skilled fighter uses a "get out of jail free card," and shucks off one good blow. In an average fight between two top fighters, each is really only going to get one or two chances to hit the other, and if one blows off a shot, then he is that much more likely to win. If he is otherwise the best fighter in the tournament, the he will likely win the day. Likewise, that is why it is that much more likely that a top fighter with a higher calibration (even if he or she calls shots consistently, but consistently high) has a bigger chance of winning than someone who has a lower calibration, but the same skill level.

Alaric

Having marshaled my share of Crown Lists, the "shucking" of blows is something that is carefully watched for in my experience. Usually there are 2 marhsals in a list and at the end of each tournament round the marshals confer about who saw who did what. Marshals are occasionally relieved if they're tired, not paying attention, or the like.

In one particular fight in a Crown, the two combatants had a reputation for being stubborn. At first, the earl-marshal of the kingdom watched the fight, then the rest of the chivalry, then the royalty, and finally, the consorts of the two fighters. It was a long fight, but the pressure of being watched by so many often has its consequences.

I sincerely hope that I never have to marshal any fight like that again. But you are right, Rev, you probably could cheat and shuck blows to win Crown--just remember that what you put out comes back at you twice as fast and three-times as hard.

Mord.

losthelm wrote:
its simmalare to the few knights that recived there belt with approval from the order.
the royalty loses the respect of the order and the recipiant gains only the title and looses what respect they had from the order.

Please explain, maybe you worded it wrong ??? I received my belt with the honor of the council and Crown.

well honor for one and the fact you would lose all respect as a fighter playing that way

Nice, but I had said:
got to wondering, aside from my good intentions and honor, what would stop me from entering crown list and just shucking blows

*I* wouldnt do it, but the question is, since everyone is so against active marshalling ("dont call blows for fighter" "only the person being hit can call the blow" ETC) what stops a person from taking advantage of that culture?

-+G

Video. There are people that have practically died from embarassment when they saw themselves on tv later...

"People who want to win Crown in the worst way, often do..."

It is kind of like speeding. Go 5mph all the time, and you will eventually get caught. Go 30-40 mph over, and someone sees you...if you keep going, after the flashing lights appear in your rearview mirror???

And in this game, everyone has a 'radar gun', and is willing to express their opinion about whether you are going 5mph over the limit on a regular basis.

Video. There are people that have practically died from embarassment when they saw themselves on tv later...

"People who want to win Crown in the worst way, often do..."

It is kind of like speeding. Go 5mph all the time, and you will eventually get caught. Go 30-40 mph over, and someone sees you...if you keep going, after the flashing lights appear in your rearview mirror???

And in this game, everyone has a 'radar gun', and is willing to express their opinion about whether you are going 5mph over the limit on a regular basis.

Well that's the case if you are ALWAYS "thick". But what if I (hypothetically) were to thicken up just for crown?

It would eb like driving the speed limit all the time, except for once, when I went 90 over. Oh- and everyone is of the opinion that we all should choose our own speed.

-+G

Not entirely. It is more a case of 'reasonable and safe for the road conditions". There may not be an 'absolute' speed limit, but there is a customary one. Sign says 55, everyone drives 65, seldom does anyone get ticketed. Drive 90...

Drive 67, when the tolerance for the radar detectors is +/-5mph, you will probably get away with it.

BUT you can never tell yourself you won fair&square, you didn't earn that hat on your head, someone else did...

mattmaus wrote:Or... if you're not the least bit sneakty about it....

getting your green card pulled by the M.i.C. to the cheers of the crowd.

I'll play to the "Dark Side" here...but where exactly in the rules can the M.I.C. cite to back up the card pull? And prove it was the case, and not just a couple of "missed shots"?

-Aaron

I have actually heard people who watched others on video fighting in crown bitching up down and sideways that someone "cheated" to win. (bitching from folks not in the tournament).

I think one of the things that must be kept in mind, when discussing active marshalling, especially when it's "all on the line" like Crown, is that people are going to be a LOT more picky about what they do or don't take.

Something that would have been "Yeah.. I'll take that" in practice, or melee, will become "Nope.. not quite there.." though those watching might not notice it.

That is just a side note to point out that even the best marshals in the world, standing there watching, cannot necessarily tell what is going on.

Now, in the case of someone getting whomped in the ribs hard enough that they cry out and lurch for a moment, then stand back up and go "no".. or someone who gets upper chested with a spear and says "uh-uh" and then gets worked all the way down to a cup shot, with same spear, in incremental distances down the breastplate.. yes, the marshall might be able to call BS on the fight.

Maeryk

Aaron wrote:

mattmaus wrote:Or... if you're not the least bit sneakty about it....

getting your green card pulled by the M.i.C. to the cheers of the crowd.

I'll play to the "Dark Side" here...but where exactly in the rules can the M.I.C. cite to back up the card pull? And prove it was the case, and not just a couple of "missed shots"?

-Aaron

You are assuming there has to be a rule to perform the action. In the case of Crown List, if the MIC has enough of an issue, all the really have to do is get the Crown on his side and then the Crown can do whatever They wish.

Odo

As has been said, Alaric has the right of it entirely. But if the crown is unwilling to pull a person out, then the answer is "injury."

Kings will throw combattants out of Crown. In Caid, Duke Edward and Duke Avery were having such an atrocious final round that King Dietrich threw them both out of Crown, and crowned the third place entrant, Brion Thornbird as his successor.

Alaric

All it takes for evil to win is for good men to sit back and do nothing.

Aside from the intervention of the Crown or the marshallate, "injury," the only thing I can think of is armour failure or your consort removing her consent. I would imagine that if a fighter was rhinoing bad enough and appeared to be choosing that path to victory so of the past Queens just might say something to your consort about whether or not she wants to be Queen "that way." If she withdrew her consent to be your consort you are no longer eligible to enter the list and probably would not be allowed to continue.

And then if enough complaints reached BoD then they could overturn the list and instruct that another one be fought. You might win the day but you might not ever take the throne.

All just possibilities....

Aaron wrote:

mattmaus wrote:Or... if you're not the least bit sneakty about it....

getting your green card pulled by the M.i.C. to the cheers of the crowd.

I'll play to the "Dark Side" here...but where exactly in the rules can the M.I.C. cite to back up the card pull? And prove it was the case, and not just a couple of "missed shots"?

-Aaron

well, Aaron,

I don't know about each kingdom's specific rules.

I do know that "My field, my rules." carries a powerful sway, and it is hard to beat that one, even though I cannot find a particular quotation in the twenty or so seconds I glanced at the RotL. I would definitely listen to the MiC.

I did find this.

SCA RotL number 3

All fighters must be acceptable to the Sovereign and Consort,

And

SCA CoC Section A paragraph 2

When not otherwise directed by The Crown, The Crown's representative on the Field in all matters dealing with Society Combat is the Earl Marshal, and , by delegation, Warranted members of the Kingdom Marshallate.

So, if I am reading this right, any warranted marshall can pull any fighter's card, by saying "I am The Crown's Warranted Representative, and you are no longer acceptable to the Sovereign and Consort".

I don't believe I have ever heard of that happening, but it seems the rules are pretty clear. The incident would have to be very, very blatant, and even that wouldn't please everybody.

If it did happen, there would be a huge stink. There would probably be a court of chivalry, and a huge bit of factional infighting. A whole bunch of people would have no fun in their game for a while, and some (if not most of them) wouldn't come back. If the incidents weren't both nauseatingly blatant, and captured on video, it would be worse.

Thank goodness social pressure, good will and honor usually are enough.

This is probably why The Crown is always present at Crown List.

I hope you understand how hideous it would be.

f

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:
The real problem arises when a really skilled fighter uses a "get out of jail free card," and shucks off one good blow. In an average fight between two top fighters, each is really only going to get one or two chances to hit the other, and if one blows off a shot, then he is that much more likely to win. If he is otherwise the best fighter in the tournament, the he will likely win the day. Likewise, that is why it is that much more likely that a top fighter with a higher calibration (even if he or she calls shots consistently, but consistently high) has a bigger chance of winning than someone who has a lower calibration, but the same skill level.

Alaric

OH! I've done that (accidentally). I fought (now sir) Leto Darkhorse in the first Gleann Abhaine Warlord Tourney, and he hit me good, for some reason, I kept fighting for like three or four more blows, then the feeling caught up. I sort of mentally went "Oh Nuts!", opened up a hole, and whispered "Hit me again, I'll die". I didn't block, he didn't complain.

He gave me a beer later.

I felt so stupid.

f

Aaron wrote:I'll play to the "Dark Side" here...but where exactly in the rules can the M.I.C. cite to back up the card pull? And prove it was the case, and not just a couple of "missed shots"?

-Aaron

In a nutshell, the Marshall in Charge of any given event can basicly warn you, then pull your card for anything they consider to be unsafe behavior. It's what the Marshalls/cards are for.

There is a process in which you can appeal to either the KEM or crown... basicly just "Hey he pulled my card and I think it's bunk". (please don't ask me to cite page numbers, but I'm pretty sure it's all there in the marshalls handbook)

Don't confuse the SCA with the real world. You're not innocent until proven guilty. The MIC can pull the card first, and then explain why later if he needs to. In the current scenario, the likelyhood of him needing to is slim.

In general combat it's not going to matter if you shuck a blow here or there.

In a crown list, if an obviously unskilled or less skilled fighter is shucking blows like mad, it will probably start off "Hold! Milord, it appeared that several blows landed on your mellon, what do you think of these shots?" then "Hold! Milord, it appears that you are deliberately ignoring blows and this is the second time we've talked, consider this a warning." "Hold! Give me your card and get off the field."

Personaly, I don't think that any Marshall would WANT to do this. I've never had a disagreement with a marshall about anything personaly. Once I did have a weapon questioned, more casualy than anything (brand new single handed warhammer) "Wow! That's kinda stiff." I've seen a few disagreements with marshals... usualy about weapons. I honestly feel that they don't want to be dicks about it. At least around here, most of the people who marshall are also fighters. They know what it's like...

Further, if a MIC pulled a card without good reason, HE'S the one left wearing the asshat.

Again, keep in mind that we are referring to a pretty drastic situation (taking crown by rhino hiding like a sumbeech), involving pretty blatant dissregard for the rules.

Brandr wrote:
And then if enough complaints reached BoD then they could overturn the list and instruct that another one be fought. You might win the day but you might not ever take the throne.

Dear lord, you don't want to go down THAT path.

The problem with the scenario that you suggest is that the MiC could say that, but the fighter can then appeal...to the crown who's standing right there. It's his Crown Tourney, afteralll. Therefore, it would still be up to the crown, not his representative.

freiman the minstrel wrote:
SCA RotL number 3

All fighters must be acceptable to the Sovereign and Consort,

And

SCA CoC Section A paragraph 2

When not otherwise directed by The Crown, The Crown's representative on the Field in all matters dealing with Society Combat is the Earl Marshal, and , by delegation, Warranted members of the Kingdom Marshallate.

So, if I am reading this right, any warranted marshall can pull any fighter's card, by saying "I am The Crown's Warranted Representative, and you are no longer acceptable to the Sovereign and Consort".

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:Kings will throw combattants out of Crown. In Caid, Duke Edward and Duke Avery were having such an atrocious final round that King Dietrich threw them both out of Crown, and crowned the third place entrant, Brion Thornbird as his successor.

Alaric

Alaric, were you there? Brion told me that what happened was that those two Duke's were having a horrible *semi-final* round, and that he'd (Brion) had won his semi-final, as was waiting on the outcome of that round.

Dietrich was going to throw them both out, but Brion really didn't want to be crown in that fashion, so they managed to get the two Dukes to re-fight their match, one of them one, and then Brion managed to defeat the winner in the final.

JP,

I have never heard that Brion actually won the tournament by his own hand.

Maybe all I ever heard was Caidan scuttlebutt, but his/your version is totally different from the version from what I heard. In fact what I was told was that in the three way final that Brion had already lost his fights and was out of the tournament.

In answer to your question, I wasn't there, and if I am wrong, I'll happily state so. I'll see if I can't get back in touch with Avery and ask again how he recalled it happening.

Alaric

Jean Paul de Sens wrote:

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:Kings will throw combattants out of Crown. In Caid, Duke Edward and Duke Avery were having such an atrocious final round that King Dietrich threw them both out of Crown, and crowned the third place entrant, Brion Thornbird as his successor.

Alaric

Alaric, were you there? Brion told me that what happened was that those two Duke's were having a horrible *semi-final* round, and that he'd (Brion) had won his semi-final, as was waiting on the outcome of that round.

Dietrich was going to throw them both out, but Brion really didn't want to be crown in that fashion, so they managed to get the two Dukes to re-fight their match, one of them one, and then Brion managed to defeat the winner in the final.

Whatever the details of the Crown Brion won, I'm intimately familiar with a Crown tournament in which a finalist was thrown out of the tournament and another fighter resurrected from the semi-finalists to take his place.

It resulted in a massive schism within the kingdom that lasted several years (and in some quarters never healed) and the birth of a new medieval recreation society.

The Crown made the determination to eject the fighter on safety grounds. He had managed to strike his opponent across both kneecaps while the fellow was kneeling on the ground.

As to the basic question at hand - while marshalls may not judge blows, they are responsible for safety and following the rules of the list. There's a level at which failure to acknowledge demonstrates an incompetence to be in the lists at all - remember the authorization process ?

It's also the case that the Crown could, within Their rights, eject a fighter from the tourney at any point as being unacceptable. That might buy them an incredible headache ( I know it did in the instance I mentioned) but it *is* within Their rights.

Now, if you had a combattant fighting with the support of the Crown and choosing to blatantly ignore blows.... ugggghhhh.

Gavin

Ok, this is getting interesting, if more sinister-

So, as king, I could, at the last minute toss out a person who had made it to the finals? just on my whim and word? Cool... So I get to pick my successor! (Nota bene- I'm NOT accusing this si what happened in the afforementioned case, only that it could happen in the future)

I also could find a buddy, tell him to Rhino his way to crown, and that I would prevent his ejection and/or toss out opponents who might be trying to stop the travesty (Duke bob, you are attempting to injust Lord sam. You are no longer acceptable to the Crown, get off my field, winner by disqualification- Lrd. Sam the bruised)

-+G

Thats why BOD exists and all crowns are subject to them. This prevents abuse of power.

Rev. George wrote:Ok, this is getting interesting, if more sinister-

So, as king, I could, at the last minute toss out a person who had made it to the finals? just on my whim and word? Cool... So I get to pick my successor! (Nota bene- I'm NOT accusing this si what happened in the afforementioned case, only that it could happen in the future)

I also could find a buddy, tell him to Rhino his way to crown, and that I would prevent his ejection and/or toss out opponents who might be trying to stop the travesty (Duke bob, you are attempting to injust Lord sam. You are no longer acceptable to the Crown, get off my field, winner by disqualification- Lrd. Sam the bruised)

-+G

Yes. One could. Just as with many other things within our Society we rely on people being honorable. It is not possible to make, much less enforce, specific rules against all the wrongdoing that people might conceivably commit. Our organization is the better for not trying to do so, IMO.

Now, would there be ramifications to doing such a thing ? Absolutely. One should expect the BoD to be called in before the end of the Finals of the tournament. The reigning Crown might well be removed, the Heirs dethroned and an new tournament held under the auspices of a Regent appointed by the BoD.
The reigning Crown might find a heap of fealty chains at Their feet, and the Heirs (if they ever assumed the Thrones) might find those chains there still. Both fighters, the King who supported the rhino-ing Prince, and the Prince, could expect severe social ostracism which could take various forms of expression.

Gavin

freiman the minstrel wrote:
OH! I've done that (accidentally). I fought (now sir) Leto Darkhorse in the first Gleann Abhaine Warlord Tourney, and he hit me good, for some reason, I kept fighting for like three or four more blows, then the feeling caught up. I sort of mentally went "Oh Nuts!", opened up a hole, and whispered "Hit me again, I'll die". I didn't block, he didn't complain.

He gave me a beer later.

I felt so stupid.

f

I've done that before too. More than once. I try not to make a habit of it, though.

Two Words: Ducal Perogative

Kilkenny wrote:As to the basic question at hand - while marshalls may not judge blows, they are responsible for safety and following the rules of the list. There's a level at which failure to acknowledge demonstrates an incompetence to be in the lists at all - remember the authorization process ?

This has been the primary basis of my statements.

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:Kings will throw combattants out of Crown. In Caid, Duke Edward and Duke Avery were having such an atrocious final round that King Dietrich threw them both out of Crown, and crowned the third place entrant, Brion Thornbird as his successor.

Alaric

Good for him!

Mord.

Hrogn wrote:Two Words: Ducal Perogative

I'm curious - what does 'Ducal Prerogative' mean in your neck of the woods? I know what it meant originally and know what it means in 'Eastern Rite' kingdoms (East, Æthelmearc, I'm pretty sure Atlantia and the Middle as well), and neither of those definitions seem to have any bearing on the subject, so clearly it means something very different to you; could you elaborate?