The Armour Archive

Hi all,
I'm being stationed outside of Abilene so I figured I would check out the Ansteorran Marshal's handbook. Pretty straight forward except for one thing, quarterstaffing a weapon is expressly forbiden. Umm, ok, what is quarterstaffing a weapon?

Quarstersaffing a weapon is using a polearm holding it at the the end with one hand and at about one quarter of its lenght (hence the name). As opposed to halfstaffin, where you hold the weapon at two points roughly eguidistant from its center. Holding a weapon quarterstaff generally makes it more difficult to controll.

Quarterstaffing as refered to in the manual is using both ends of the weapon offensively. Basically like using a staff as a weapon, and attacking with both ends.

Robin Hood meets Little John and they beat eachother with both ends of long sticks = quaterstaff.

Think about fighting with a Pugil stick.

IE: You can "smack" with the head only, and poke with the tail only.. no whippy whippy dodge parry block TWANG stuff..

basically to keep you (or this was the theory when it was written) from accelerating an arm, say, down with the head of the weapon and then rapidly ending it's downward movement with an upswing from the bottom.

It's meant to be a safety measure.. I think it is a kinda pointless rule.. but that's just me.

Maeryk

Nice 14th century kit.

When are you heading this way? It is always nice to have new folks to beat on us.

Regards,
Richard
Ansteorra

Well, how much damage would an unbladed staf do to someone in "socital armour"?

You can't intentionally haft your opponent after all, right?

Can't?

Shouldn't.

I was wondering about this, and it looks like I might be part of the reason for this rule. I am not positive about the rule, or what quarterstaffing is, but I do have this safety tip/anecdote.

I was fighting an honorable opponent in Memphis a couple of weeks after we decided to use butt spikes, and after we did away with the ninety degree rule.

My opponent had just built a great mace (about six feet long) and equipped it with a butt spike. It was a really cool looking weapon, and he wanted to try it out. I volunteered.

He had it inverted (butt spike foreward) and was poking at me with it, when I charged in. He then buttstroked me with the mace head. The weapon blew straight through my sword guard, knocked my center grip sheild aside, and very forcefully laid my head over. It was the very, very first and last time that weapon was ever used in that manner. I understand he ripped it apart after that, and made a nice, gentle greatsword.

It had torn one of the two muscles that extend down diagonally from the back of the neck, and my head stayed that way for three days. I almost quit fighting after that.

perhaps that is why quarterstaffing (If I am correct in the definition) is banned.

freiman

Did you take the shot?

Bedlam wrote:Did you take the shot?

Well, it wasn't clean.

I actually did, We had both been concerned about the shot, but didn't really think that I was hurt. I actually fought two more opponents before I realized that my neck still hurt, and the marshall pulled me out.

come to think of it, I would probably have kept fighting. I didn't realize that I couldn't lift my head up.

I guess I am stupid sometimes.

f

Clean shouldn't matter if it hit with sufficient force.

Bedlam wrote:Clean shouldn't matter if it hit with sufficient force.

Frieman was kidding, you do know that right ?

Lachlann wrote:

Bedlam wrote:Clean shouldn't matter if it hit with sufficient force.

Frieman was kidding, you do know that right ?

I have fought with a 6 ft maul for many years. "clean" is not one of the adjectives I would use to describe how it hits... Crushing, smashing. crunching, 'Thud', 'how did I end up on the ground' ... those are the sorts of descriptions that usually get used to explain how it hits

On the other hand, IIRC there is some sort of injunction in SCA rules against "Pike Mauls" Every so often somebody tells me "You can't use that weapon, it's a PIKE MAUL! EEEEeeeee!"

As I understand, a pike maul is putting a mace head on the butt end of a pole weapon (instead of a butt spike) and using it in the 'quarterstaff' (ie both ends striking) fashion. You can generate a lot of force that way...
If I fought my Maul inverted (Oar style), technically I supposed I would then be using a short spear with a "Pike Maul"

For what it's worth, I've never used my maul in inverted style (like Frieman described) to avoid being accused of using a "Pike Maul". And to avoid breaking my friends

Anyone know what the Society rules say about pike mauls? I looked it up about 15 years ago when I first built the weapon, but haven't really checked since

Brucer

Back in the dim reaches of history, just before we banned "quarterstaffing", I was marshalling a fight between a fellow aptly named Hagar the Bear, who was fighting with a reversed glaive (butt spike forward) against a fellow named Alfric, who weighed about 180 pounds, and was wearing nearly full plate.

Hagar swung the back end of the glaive, striking Alfric just under the right edge of his helmet, and lifted him about 14 inches off the ground, straight up, whereupon his chinstrap broke, and he flipped over.

Yes, it was considered a safety issue to ban that usage.

Paulb

I am intrigued....

I fight 7' Pollaxe (I'm 6'2") mostly with a que lead, (ie Butspike forward) both thumbs to centre, right hand back choked up to the axe/mallet, axe forward in line with my right hand knuckles.. (Jeu de la hache)

I often thrust with the que, step in and throw a right cross with the head.

I also choke up to the que tip with my left hand, and then throw a long cut with the axe to the hip, sliding my right hand all the way up to meet my laft at the que end.

Would this be frowned upon where you are fighting?

I have yet to have an opponent complain of excessive force, but I am very aware of having to keep the weapon under control.

It's a seven foot lever. But no more inherently dangerous than a 9' fiberglass spear.

Is this not more of a control issue than a prescription of weapons one?

Robert of Canterbury wrote:I am intrigued....

I fight 7' Pollaxe (I'm 6'2") mostly with a que lead, (ie Butspike forward) both thumbs to centre, right hand back choked up to the axe/mallet, axe forward in line with my right hand knuckles.. (Jeu de la hache)

Robert, I think I fought you using that weapon last March. At no time did I feel like I was in jeopardy from you using that weapon. I would have recalled that. I do think I blocked using my sword, and while you hit stoutly, Cadugan hits harder with a single sword.

I think it's both a control issue and a weapon issue. In Drachenwald, you were forced to specifically authorize using a great weapon (and with you I am guessing you used that axe), while in Meridies, any new fighter can authorize with a sword and sheild and then use any weapon they desire.

The usage has never been banned in D'wald because it has never been a problem. If you abuse that axe, or I abuse my Assegi, then they will make a different rule. As it is, Maestro Aethstan (and Max before him) don't like to make rules to correct problems that don't exist yet.

And by the way, I think that the paralell hand thing probably steals a lot of your power on C-blocks and cross checking. My opinion, your milage may vary.

No, the incident in Auduvon park in Memphis was just a fluke, and an experiment that failed. It doesn't work real well in that culture.

freiman

Robert of Canterbury wrote:I am intrigued....

I fight 7' Pollaxe (I'm 6'2") mostly with a que lead, (ie Butspike forward) both thumbs to centre, right hand back choked up to the axe/mallet, axe forward in line with my right hand knuckles.. (Jeu de la hache)

I often thrust with the que, step in and throw a right cross with the head.

I also choke up to the que tip with my left hand, and then throw a long cut with the axe to the hip, sliding my right hand all the way up to meet my laft at the que end.

Would this be frowned upon where you are fighting?

I have yet to have an opponent complain of excessive force, but I am very aware of having to keep the weapon under control.

It's a seven foot lever. But no more inherently dangerous than a 9' fiberglass spear.

Is this not more of a control issue than a prescription of weapons one?

Last I knew the sliding your hand (aka "pick-axe swing") was explicitly prohibited in the East Kingdom. Other than that we're very liberal about how one may use the weapon. Nothing illegal about your guard or the "right cross" attack here. And yes, potential for enormous power when one brings the head around from the back like that... but also tremendous control.

Gavin

Maeryk wrote:IE: You can "smack" with the head only, and poke with the tail only.. no whippy whippy dodge parry block TWANG stuff..

basically to keep you (or this was the theory when it was written) from accelerating an arm, say, down with the head of the weapon and then rapidly ending it's downward movement with an upswing from the bottom.

It's meant to be a safety measure.. I think it is a kinda pointless rule.. but that's just me.

Maeryk

We experimented with striking with both ends of polearms here in the East many years ago, while Atlantia was still part of the East. When I say striking I mean slash, smash or poke with either end of the weapon.

Experiment involved two of our top people with polearms, Sir Tojenarum Grenville of Devon and Master Vissevald Selkirkson.

They used the style against opponents who agreed to face it, and after a very short time came back with the opinion that it was overly dangerous. Simply too easy to deliver very forceful blows at extremely high frequency. Particular nightmares considered didn't involve arms, but things like knocking a helm off with one end and hitting the bare head with the other before realizing the helm has gone.

It's also very probably the case that the combination of impact and speed of repetition increases the likelihood of concussion. Move the arm this way, stop it suddenly, ok, it might hurt. Do that to the brain and it's much worse.

As an aside, I've long believed in separate authorizations for different weapons forms. At the very least, two handed weapon should be an authorization of its own. They're very different from weapon and shield, and the differences are fully capable of getting people hurt on either side fo the weapons.

Gavin

OK, quarterstaffing is using both ends of the weapon to smash or cut? No worries there.
I'll be leaving Germany in February and getting to Abilene early to mid-March. Should be going to events sometime in May, depending how long it takes mama military to get our stuff across the water.

May
19-21 Guardian of the Tor - Dragonsfire Tor (Stephenville, Tx)
26-29 Steppes Warlord - Steppes (Dallas, TX) *PED*


These two events are going to be end of May. The first one is only like 140 miles from Abilene. The second is the largest tourney in the Kingdom in a year, so a good place to meet a LOT of Ansteorran fighters. 240 miles from you, on the opposite side of the DFW metroplex.

matthijs wrote:Quarstersaffing a weapon is using a polearm holding it at the the end with one hand and at about one quarter of its lenght (hence the name). As opposed to halfstaffin, where you hold the weapon at two points roughly eguidistant from its center. Holding a weapon quarterstaff generally makes it more difficult to controll.

That would be news to me - I tend to shift my grip around betwen the end first quarter, center, and thrid quarter of the shaft quite actively. My hands are rarely more than 18 inches apart.