The Armour Archive

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:PS- all change in the SCA is autocratic, if some individual doesn't make a change (and usually take a hit of crap for it) it never happens.

I'm gonna print that out and frame it. Brilliant!

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:PPS- Again we see specious changes to the rules coming out Meridies/Glenn Abhann. There is certainly a pattern to their deviancy from the rest of the SCA. Why do they appear to be so far out of whack from the rest of the culture?

Maybe we're deviants?

Honestly, I don't think Gleann Abhann is all that different. I play lots with Calontir and Ansteorra and find little if any difference. Maybe I'm not fighting the right people...

Uric, you might want to take that thought to another thread, It's about time for another pitchfork and torch party for the SEM. We're getting overdue.

i totally disagree. anyone can make mere contact. it takes skill to deliver a solid, intentioned blow (thrust or not).

logan

Thorstenn wrote:Killing somebody with a single handed sword to the side of the helmet is just as silly. Please try to remember that armor was created to stop wounds or death from occurring in battle.
As far as face thrusts go, it takes MORE skill to touch to the face than to slam somebody.

Marvin wrote:My best guess is that William thinks knee fighting is silly and that knee walking is sillier still. I regard it as an incremental change for the better, but nowhere near as far as I would like to see it go. However, I'm not the EM and I don't have to balance my preferences with pragmatism.

Just to try and clear up a few erroneous assertions, Sir William did not just spring this on the Kingdom without the potential for discussion. He sent out the proposed Marshall's Handbook to all of the Knights at least, and I am sure there were others who received it. Of all the people who read it, or said they read it, none of us noticed the change. So, while there could have been discussion, there wasn't because we are all a bunch of non-reading stick jocks.

The first I heard about it was at last weekend's Fighter Collegium when someone who had been legged approached me and asked about the new rule. I went to Sir William and we discussed it. His intentions, as I remember them, was to make it MORE realistic, not PERFECTLY realistic. He knew there would be no way to stop fighting from the knees, it is too ingrained. What he was trying to stop was the RUNNING CHARGES from the knees.

I know that if my thigh was layed open to the bone or broken, it is highly unlikely that I would be able to kneel and continue fighting. However, since that is the convention we fight under in the SCA, that is where we start. As unlikely as that occurrence is, the likelyhood of me being able to walk forward on my knees is even lower. His compromise is to say that you are not dead because your leg was taken, but you have to keep the knee of the affected leg grounded. Theoretically, not that bad of a compromise.

Practically, however, I think it would be a nightmare. You will end up with chorus lines of legged fighters hopping across the field to reform. If you throw a killing blow, but your knee comes off the ground, the shot wouldn't be good. We will have battles where each side has several people alive but spread out across the field out of range of anyone else.

My personal opinion is that we should leave it at the status quo, but it is under discussion now for re-evaluation.

Radu
Kiralya Gleann Abhann

I agree that anybody can make contact with a slash or the side of a thrusting tip, but it does take more skill to throw a fast, intentional thrust that gets past a fighter's defenses and stops just as it touches the face without taking his head off. It is much easier just to blast through. Especially with a 9' spear.

Radu

dukelogan wrote:i totally disagree. anyone can make mere contact. it takes skill to deliver a solid, intentioned blow (thrust or not).

logan

Thorstenn wrote:Killing somebody with a single handed sword to the side of the helmet is just as silly. Please try to remember that armor was created to stop wounds or death from occurring in battle.
As far as face thrusts go, it takes MORE skill to touch to the face than to slam somebody.

Moose wrote:---------
His intentions, as I remember them, was to make it MORE realistic, not PERFECTLY realistic. He knew there would be no way to stop fighting from the knees, it is too ingrained. What he was trying to stop was the RUNNING CHARGES from the knees.
-------
Radu
Kiralya Gleann Abhann

--- = edit

Yeah, I figured it was something along those lines. As I said, my direct line to the EM's brain doesn't seem to be working today.

As for Running Charges - damn. I have a hard enough time doing that on my feet.

Radu: "it does take more skill to throw a fast, intentional thrust that gets past a fighter's defenses and stops just as it touches the face without taking his head off. It is much easier just to blast through. Especially with a 9' spear."

Not wanting to derail the thread (and I appreciate your explanation of the rule's genesis -- especially the part about illiterate knights ), but your stated scenario only assumes the best and worst of all situations.

I can hold my point at my opponent's shield rim and "pop" the acknowledged equivelent of a "directed touch" blow, rendering nearly any opponent "defenseless". By contrast, I cannot generate the same amount of force with this technique that a "normal" blow would require; the mechanics are insufficient, and I would have to compensate by increasing the range -- and proportionately increasing my opponents' opportunity to defend.

To land a blow of "ideal" force, to my mind, requires equal skill whatever the level assigned. So the perfect blow you describe -- a "fast, intentional thrust that gets past a fighter's defenses and stops just as it touches the face without taking his head off", is equal in difficulty to "a fast, intentional thrust that gets past a fighter's defenses and strikes with exactly the required amount of acknowledged force without taking his head off". What makes the second blow more difficult overall is that there is no "shorthand" to generating the credible amount of force demanded. Simply stated, for all but the gods who walk among us, this minimum energy tranlates into a greater minimum range or more "telegraph", both factors that can be used to the defender's advantage.

Is it easier to just "amp up" the thrust than it is to control it? Yes -- and I have no pity for those who do, and would very much like to see them sanctioned for it. Is it also easier to "choke up" on the shot and tap your opponents out, rather than throwing credible blows that land with no power? Absolutely. But these are much harder to detect and sanction, and IMnsHO, cheapen the game even worse than the first. For my part, I would rather rely on the goodwill of my opponent and ask that he "do his best" without breaking me than risk turning this into a game of "tag".

With respect,

Alfred of Carlyle

OK...I typed in the text from the book. Rather than derail this thread any further, though, here's the thread link.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=53439

knock yerselves out

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:If someone wants to be prgressive, than they should be ballsy and dump fighting from the knees altogether.

You can do it on an individual level though.

If I don't fight from my knees and you don't fight from your knees, and your friends don't fight from thier knees, suddenly we have a movement...

(I feel so 60's now...)

Asbjorn

I don't fight from my knees

I see a lot of folks state how knee fighting is too ingrained to be changed, but because I don’t fight from my knees personally, I get a lot of feedback from respected fighters that they think knee fighting is silly. In this thread alone we have at least two Dukes (since not everyone posts their titles) who think it doesn’t model reality well.

I honestly think that if an EM was to propose to get rid of it, perhaps replace it with a “one blow and doneâ€Â

ok ill add to that.

im a duke
i love fighting
i love fighting from my knees
i very rarely have to fight from my knees
i very very rarely lose from my knees
i feel sca sport combat is a sad portrayal of actual fighting
i feel that sca sport combat doesnt attempt to claim its actual fighting
i feel that sca sport combat is a unique and staisfying style of combat that includes fighting from ones knees.

regards
logan


[quote="Asbjorn Johansen"]I see a lot of folks state how knee fighting is too ingrained to be changed, but because I don’t fight from my knees personally, I get a lot of feedback from respected fighters that they think knee fighting is silly. In this thread alone we have at least two Dukes (since not everyone posts their titles) who think it doesn’t model reality well.

I honestly think that if an EM was to propose to get rid of it, perhaps replace it with a “one blow and doneâ€Â

While I applaud the attempt at trying to make a more realistic rules set, I would second the idea that they should just do away with the fighting from the knees and just call the leg shot a killing blow. It is simple and easy to manage in a melee/battle situation. In truth, this will be the result of the rule anyway, as people fall on their sword once the battle leaves them behind. Of course, at least with this rule they would have the option of swinging the stick a few times while the battle is in their vicinity. Don't know about the crawling though.

Incidently, a few folks have called for going to counted blows. It's a fun rules set, but you should be aware that it comes with disadvantages as well, and those disadvantages are exacerbated in a battle situation:

a) sloppy technique: people start getting wild, and stop calling their own bad blows (flat, or whatnot).

b) sloppy blow calling: There is a tendency in counted blows -- particularly in melee counted blows -- to not notice shots to the body so much.

c) It less clearly delineates the differences between the living/wounded/dead. While this isn't necessarily such an awful thing, it does make it easier and more tempting to shrug off that final blow. A person takes two hits, then moves off elsewhere and stays in the fight. Some people might have trouble resisting.

Don't get me wrong: a counted blows battle would be a hoot. We just need to keep in mind that it could have some problems as well.

carlyle wrote:
YOWSER!! Your Excellency, with all due respect, this is so wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin!! Yes, this is often the appearance of how something happens at a kingdom level, but it in no way reflects how changes are instituted at the Society level that are then expected to be adopted by all kingdoms. Finger gauntlets, hardwood spears, padded/unpadded polearms, arming the elbow inside the shield, "directed touch" -- the list is endless, and all are the result of a SEM influenced by a small portion of the fighting community, usually from his own kingdom, and even more likely from his own cadre. We are an autocratic society at every point; we are a failure as a "grass roots"-driven culture.

It may only be an experiment, and it may be a GA thing now -- but woe betide us all should it be adopted on the premise of being "more realistic", and then, when a GA SEM is appointed, he decides that such a "sensible" rule should be adopted Society-wide. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder who protects us from our well-intended EM's ...

With kindness,

Alfred of Carlyle

Sorry was off the AA all weekend. Alfred I have great respect for your opinions but most of the things you mentioned above were rules adopted by one Kingdom and spread to others well before the SEM put them in to law. They became law because they were adopted by so many Kingdoms that it was natural for the SEM to adopt them. A few above are not SCA wide even now, but authorized in several Kingdoms. As I have moved from Kingdom to Kingdom numerous times I have encountered local rules that outlawed something in one Kingdom but allowed in another (i.e. unpadded glaives). The SEM does have great influence and the authority to make changes but all in all most of the changes I have seen were allowed in multiple Kingdoms well before the SEM put them into law.

With respect,
Vebrand

Ulric,
Never thought you would kick up this kind of storm did you

If you want my straight opinion on the rule I will give it. For some of the reasons above I am not fond of it. I understand what Sir William is trying to do and applaud the idea of looking at different things. I also know William and he is a really good guy. He and I won a two man tourney together at Diamond Wars a couple of years back. I think limiting the movement will make those on the knees to be sitting ducks for great weapons and spears. Like written before; what happens if at the end of a melee you have four or five left fighting and they are all on their knees and out of range of each other?

As far as counted blows goes I like the format. Is the SCA ready for a crown to be fought with counted blows? Not sure if it is, but one will never know until some one does it.

Vebrand

Vebrand wrote:Is the SCA ready for a crown to be fought with counted blows? Not sure if it is, but one will never know until some one does it.

Vebrand

Ealdormere did this very thing for their last Crown Tournament, won by Count Aaron, and in the receding past, they held a Principality Coronet Tournament in that fashion, won by (now) Duke Roak.

My only fear with the counted blows system is that it could stifle skill progression. I figure out how to throw a killer leg shot, and not much else, and as long as I can block, I can probably win every fight I compete in.

Varus - East

Saint-Sever wrote:

carlyle wrote: I would hope that an experienced MD would be able to discern as much.

With respect,

Alfred of Carlyle

An MD is not likely, IMO, to be more than academically aware of what human beings are capable of immediately following massive trauma. Even ER docs see their most of their patients 20-30 minutes after the injury has occurred.

Ask a cop, firefighter or combat medic what people are routinely capable of after severe wounding. The answer might surprise you-- it would be an argument more in favor of not acting wounds out all.

One of my favoriates - this guy was a true warrior:

http://www.medalofhonor.com/JohnBobo.htm
Vietnam War Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
2nd Lt. John Paul Bobo, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve

CITATION:

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. Company I was establishing night ambush sites when the command group was attacked by a reinforced North Vietnamese company supported by heavy automatic weapons and mortar fire. 2d Lt. Bobo immediately organized a hasty defense and moved from position to position encouraging the outnumbered Marines despite the murderous enemy fire. Recovering a rocket launcher from among the friendly casualties, he organized a new launcher team and directed its fire into the enemy machine gun positions. When an exploding enemy mortar round severed 2d Lt. Bobo's right leg below the knee, he refused to be evacuated and insisted upon being placed in a firing position to cover the movement of the command group to a better location. With a web belt around his leg serving as a tourniquet and with his leg jammed into the dirt to curtain the bleeding, he remained in this position and delivered devastating fire into the ranks of the enemy attempting to overrun the Marines. 2d Lt. Bobo was mortally wounded while firing his weapon into the main point of the enemy attack but his valiant spirit inspired his men to heroic efforts, and his tenacious stand enabled the command group to gain a protective position where it repulsed the enemy onslaught. 2d Lt. Bobo's superb leadership, dauntless courage, and bold initiative reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.

Marvin wrote:Every kingdom has funny rules and conventions.

I believe the East follows Society min re: Conventions of Combat.

D. Sebastian wrote:

Marvin wrote:Every kingdom has funny rules and conventions.

I believe the East follows Society min re: Conventions of Combat.

D'oh! I mis-typed. The word I was looking for is "customs". Every kingdom has different customs on the field.

No matter how many times I re-think what I type, I still manage to get something wrong. Sorry 'bout that.

D. Sebastian wrote:

Saint-Sever wrote:

carlyle wrote: I would hope that an experienced MD would be able to discern as much.

With respect,

Alfred of Carlyle

An MD is not likely, IMO, to be more than academically aware of what human beings are capable of immediately following massive trauma. Even ER docs see their most of their patients 20-30 minutes after the injury has occurred.

Ask a cop, firefighter or combat medic what people are routinely capable of after severe wounding. The answer might surprise you-- it would be an argument more in favor of not acting wounds out all.

One of my favoriates - this guy was a true warrior:

http://www.medalofhonor.com/JohnBobo.htm
Vietnam War Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
2nd Lt. John Paul Bobo, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve

CITATION:

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. Company I was establishing night ambush sites when the command group was attacked by a reinforced North Vietnamese company supported by heavy automatic weapons and mortar fire. 2d Lt. Bobo immediately organized a hasty defense and moved from position to position encouraging the outnumbered Marines despite the murderous enemy fire. Recovering a rocket launcher from among the friendly casualties, he organized a new launcher team and directed its fire into the enemy machine gun positions. When an exploding enemy mortar round severed 2d Lt. Bobo's right leg below the knee, he refused to be evacuated and insisted upon being placed in a firing position to cover the movement of the command group to a better location. With a web belt around his leg serving as a tourniquet and with his leg jammed into the dirt to curtain the bleeding, he remained in this position and delivered devastating fire into the ranks of the enemy attempting to overrun the Marines. 2d Lt. Bobo was mortally wounded while firing his weapon into the main point of the enemy attack but his valiant spirit inspired his men to heroic efforts, and his tenacious stand enabled the command group to gain a protective position where it repulsed the enemy onslaught. 2d Lt. Bobo's superb leadership, dauntless courage, and bold initiative reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.

And in period there are examples of people continuing to fight while wounded.

Jaques Lalaing fought on, and won (by grappling) when he was spiked in the wrist and lost the use of his hand.

A French squire, stabbed in the thigh during the jousting portion of a deed (for which wound the judges resoundingly criticized his opponent), continued to fight in the dismounted portion of the deed until the judges (the ranking nobles) decided that he was bleeding excessively and halted the combat.

In the Coup de Jarnac, Jarnac's opponent continued to fight despite being hamstrung. He bled to death.

For my part I don't give a rats ass if Armoured Combat is accurate so long as it allows for folks to try to be accurate. Forcing people to change the way they play inevitably creates backlash, regardless of how well intentioned or even necessary the change may be.

Once upon a time, I was part of a mock amphibious invasion in southern Sicily. (during the Libyan crisis in '86)

Some grunt Marines were asleep in a meadow of comfy tall grass.

One of the 5-ton truck drivers thought that selfsame tall grass meadow looked like a nice shortcut, despite his orders to stay on the road and follow the truck in front of him.

He ran one of the Marines over with the rear wheels. The guy got up and ran about 10-15 meters, still fully zipped in his sleeping bag, before he dropped dead. The MD on scene said he was clinically dead as soon as the rear wheels rolled off of him. I guess no one told him.

Now, having said that, I do NOT like fighting from my knees in Dagorhir or the SCA. IRL, I would only want to do that if my life depended on it. That is one of the many reasons I love mounted combat. No kneeling.

dukelogan wrote:i agree that a good number of our rules are far from realistic. my point is that we have created a very unique set of conditions. one of those conditions involves things like being hit in the leg causes the penalty of having to fight from your knees. has nothing to do with the reality of a tournament setting im sure.

if the argument were made that in a european tournament during the middle ages it can be assumed that a strike to the leg hard enough to break it would probably be cause for someone to yeild the fight, i would be ok with that reasoning. i just hate when we try to validate rule changes based on assumptions like when it is suggested that a mere touch to the face with a thrust would make someone unable to continue a fight.

we seem to create new rules at the drop of a hat and i find most of them hard to understand. if we could please just worry about changing rules when they are required for the safety of the participants i bet most of us would be happy.


regards
logan

I'm going to take exception to something here. First of all, where did you come to the conclusion that we give up the use of our leg because it is broken ? Wounded, injured, no longer functional, yes, but broken ?

Secondly, the comparison you make between leg and face seems to ignore the fundamental distinction between the two areas - one is presumed armored and one is presumed unarmored - and the basic presumption of our overall rule set, that were the weapons and the armor real, the blow was sufficiently hard to do injury to the person.

Under our rules it is perfectly sensible that a blow to the armored leg must be harder than a blow to the unarmored face.

Gavin

D. Sebastian wrote:

Marvin wrote:Every kingdom has funny rules and conventions.

I believe the East follows Society min re: Conventions of Combat.

The East uses Society minimum conventions for armour and weapon standards. We have additional combat conventions. They need to be rewritten, and will be, as soon as the new Society level handbook is book is available.

http://eastkingdom.org/Law/earlmarshal.pdf

Asbjorn

I understand that knee-fighting really serves one specific purpose- it provides drama for the crowd. "Oh crap! He's legged! He's armed! He won anyway! Woo-hoo!"
I am just over it. I keep finding myself moving towards Living History, and away from conventional SCA stuff. I just don't fight in any situation where I will have to get on my knees to do it. It's stupid. I don't like stupid. It makes for ugly fighting, and most indoor sites are damaging to expensive knee armour. I just ain't into it.
I get alot of crap for not fighting as much as I used to, but when I have the situation I want I prove to be as tough as ever. It's about inspiration, and the vision I have in my Froissart-soaked head doesn't include knee fighting, or switching hands, or swinging a poleaxe with one hand.
Nope.

i never came to that conclusion. where did i say that that is what i believed? what i said was that if someone were to suggest that the reason for a new rule calling a person bested in tournament would have been based, by suggestion, that a leg was broken then sure. but that is not what has been suggested. as such i dont buy into it.

and what i said about the face deals solely on some fo the ridiculous arguments i have heard time and time again that if mere contact were made with a weapon, even a light thrust, to the face the person struck would be disinclined to continue the fight. hogwash.

not sure why that was unclear but i hope that has cleared it up.

regards
logan

Kilkenny wrote:

dukelogan wrote:i agree that a good number of our rules are far from realistic. my point is that we have created a very unique set of conditions. one of those conditions involves things like being hit in the leg causes the penalty of having to fight from your knees. has nothing to do with the reality of a tournament setting im sure.

if the argument were made that in a european tournament during the middle ages it can be assumed that a strike to the leg hard enough to break it would probably be cause for someone to yeild the fight, i would be ok with that reasoning. i just hate when we try to validate rule changes based on assumptions like when it is suggested that a mere touch to the face with a thrust would make someone unable to continue a fight.

we seem to create new rules at the drop of a hat and i find most of them hard to understand. if we could please just worry about changing rules when they are required for the safety of the participants i bet most of us would be happy.


regards
logan

I'm going to take exception to something here. First of all, where did you come to the conclusion that we give up the use of our leg because it is broken ? Wounded, injured, no longer functional, yes, but broken ?

Secondly, the comparison you make between leg and face seems to ignore the fundamental distinction between the two areas - one is presumed armored and one is presumed unarmored - and the basic presumption of our overall rule set, that were the weapons and the armor real, the blow was sufficiently hard to do injury to the person.

Under our rules it is perfectly sensible that a blow to the armored leg must be harder than a blow to the unarmored face.

Gavin

Vebrand: "most of the things you mentioned above were rules adopted by one Kingdom and spread to others well before the SEM put them in to law."

Let's see, where to start...

Finger gauntlets -- the famous "must wrap and touch" insanity: In about 1981, I and a few others (four in total) made and used finger gauntlets in the style of the 14th C. brigandine-cuffed "wisby" gauntlets. We labored under the tutelage of Valerius Paencalvus and Will of Wiltshire, two Laurel armorers renowned for their reproduction quality work.

We fought non-stop with these guantlets for three years and with all weapons forms without injury in the Middle Kingdom and at Pennsic -before- the rule was instituted.

When the change became effective, there was no opportunity for comment, no grandfathering, and no grace period. It just happened. To the best of my knowledge, there were no serious injuries reported, no chronic "history" of recurring injuries, no movement of kingdoms graduating to similar conventions -- nothing that we could immediately point to to explain the change.

The SEM at the time was a Western duke.

Hardwood spears -- or how the East nearly lynched the SEM: Seriously, they burned him in effigy at Pennsic (or so he told me)! This actually happened shortly after the finger gauntlet ban, but under a different administration.

The East had been fighting for many years with hardwood-shafted spears. Again, there was no history of injury above and beyond what was accepted for rattan-hafted spears.

The SEM, however, was not from the East; he was from a kingdom (Calontir) that faced the hardwood-hafted weapons annually at Pennsic, but did not allow them themselves.

Admittedly, while the practice was not widespread, there was no "movement" to prohibit them among the kingdoms. At the most, it could be characterized as one kingdom explicitly allowed them, and several had not progressed to that level (remembering that there were all of 7 or 8 kingdoms at the time).

To the best of my knowledge, the primary reason to introduce the rule was to enforce an arbitrary consistency.

Covering the inside of the elbow under a shield -- armor "creep", or looking for that "visual" balance: This was an adjustment made to the ruleset entirely by fiat by the SEM (I don't even remember who was in office at the time). To the best of my knowledge, it was not a part of any kingdom-level convention east of the Mississippi.

Padded and unpadded polearms -- or, He That Hath the Power Maketh the Rules: Were you active when two successive administrations effectively reversed each other, apparently driven by the local prejudice of their local kingdoms' conventions?

It was a lesson in lunacy, and the arguments were equally crazy. Each group argued that their system must be "safer" because it's what they used and the opposite system must be inherently more dangerous because they weren't familiar with it.

Apparently nobody took into account that both factions had been using their preferred forms for over a decade with no measurable difference in injury (except maybe to their ability to think logically, and then they were both equally afflicted).

"Directed Touch": This is the maddest of the mad. Western-rite kingdoms (and a few Eastern-rite ones, as well), easily representing a third or more of all fighters, have been using "positive force" rules for decades. No one has ever produced a single injury report, let alone a history of injuries, that indicate any group is at any more risk than any other.

Yet despite the lack of evidence and clear lack of support from at least a half-dozen kingdoms, an SEM -not- from one of these kingdoms felt it necessary to impose the rule anyway.

Subsequent SEM's (one that, while from a western-rite kingdom, was apparently a really good guy but not a very strong administrator) have continued down this path to the point that, in at least one kingdom, it has since been openly dismissed by that realm's Crown and assembled knights.


Vebrand, I do not pretend that my evidence is complete, or that any of the above wasn't introduced out of the best of intentions. But to color these changes as the culmination of some sort of grass roots movement belies the complete surprise felt by myself and my peers when they were announced, as well as the rather severe outcry (or outright rebellion) that resulted when they were instituted.

With respect,

Alfred of Carlyle

[quote="dukelogan"]ok ill add to that.

im a duke
i love fighting
i love fighting from my knees
i very rarely have to fight from my knees
i very very rarely lose from my knees
i feel sca sport combat is a sad portrayal of actual fighting
i feel that sca sport combat doesnt attempt to claim its actual fighting
i feel that sca sport combat is a unique and staisfying style of combat that includes fighting from ones knees.

regards
logan


I'll second that opinion.

PaulB

Alfred I concede the SEM made the rulings but must say the ones listed above were not new to many Kingdoms when the SEM made his rulings. Most of what you say except directed touch were outlawed or made legal in several Kingdoms well before the SEM made the move. He may have allowed his local prejudice to play a part but for a lot of the society it was nothing new. I remember people wondering why the East was so upset about the hard wood shafts being outlawed because most people had stopped using them. I remember people talking about the game of trying to see how many you could break at Pennsic.

Unpadded glaives, Siloflex swords, and fiberglass spears were all started well before the SEM said allow them. As far as the armor under the shield I remember being told way back in the early 80s that I would have to yield a fight if I didn’t have armor on my left arm and lost my right arm. It was standard to have armor on both arms for everyone even if it wasn’t a written rule. This is my point. A lot of it was standard well before it was written. When it was written, people said OK and went on.

The directed touch rule was a top down rule that when stated did not cause a stir at all. The problem came in trying to define the rule and the numerous interpretation of the rule. Then it spun out of control as to what it was and what it is. People still don't really know across the society. The anti-bounce back device on arrows was a top down rule but after a Gulf Wars right before that the uproar was pretty great to put something in place.

With true respect,
Vebrand

Vebrand,

I feel that we are presenting seperate points of view based largely on our personal experiences. As our backgrounds have little overlap, what we anecdotally recount describes very real differences in what was considered "standard". In effect, I think we are representatitve of the very problem I am trying to describe. Relying primarily on their own experiences, I do not believe that the SEM's have historically endeavored to actually determine what the prevailing direction was, or even what was the majority practice. Rather, they instituted rules that, while representative of their local conventions, wound up contradicting accepted, safe, and well-established practices elsewhere.

For example, because of my intimacy with the finger gauntlet rule, I have some knowledge that there was no "wrap-and-touch" convention anywhere east of the Mississippi (and in several parts more westerly, since Calontir conventions were still largely derived of Midrealm regulation). There was no prevailing "movement" to speak of. The only thing I can even surmise is that the central West Kingdom lacked a native "hockey" culture, so they quickly evolved to basket hilts. These were clearly more protective than any guantlet they were aware of, and the standards of "safety" they applied reflected this experience. It only made sense that, if it worked for them, it would work for everyone else -- despite what other regions might be experiencing.

The padded vs unpadded poles is another such discussion. The West has used unpadded polearms since day one. The Midrealm has always had padded polearms. At the time the dispute arose, both had established comparable safety records in their respective regions. Now, neither of these realms were actually represented in the actual dispute (I believe it was Atlantia and Outlands? I could be in error on this). But there was no "starting point" in either example -- these were the -only- conventions these two kingdoms had ever known, and neither were considering re-evaluating their rules. At least from my perspective, there was no "movement" by the collective kingdoms that was being represented by the SEMs, nor any effort by either of them to even establish which convention was truly the majority practice.

Your description of elbow armor under the shield pretty much reflects my experience -- up-and-until you describe how fighters simply fought with the armor under their shield as a matter of course. In the Midrealm, it was a -very- common practice to bring the extra armor (elbow -and- gauntlet) to the list edge in the event that the fighter was struck in their shield arm and had to switch. And as far as I can determine, this was also common practice in the West. There was no expectation that the fighter would have to yield; perhaps this was a local convention where you were at. And in both examples, it is -still- the practice with regards to hand protection.

Directed touch came into being while I was in the West. I believe the SEM was from Calontir (was it Siridean?). I can say with some authority that this particular rule has been an issue in this kingdom since the day it was instituted. Or, perhaps I can say it isn't an issue, because it is largely ignored -- but it was -never- accepted and, from all I can tell, will never gain acceptance here. It may have been "quiet" where you were, but it petted the cat backwards here from the very beginning.

In the end, I concede that we may have to simply agree to disagree on how we think things work. But realize that, when I started, the minimum armor was a helm, gorget, and kneepads. The Midrealm required hockey gloves or better; Meridies was content with welding gloves. From my perspective and experience, every rule that has since come down calling for increased armor or restrictions in technique have, by-and-large, had the appearance of rule-by-fiat, without consensus or consent, without dialogue, without evidence, and entirely at the whim of the current SEM. Some of these rules have been sensible (reducing the eyeslot to 1" from 1.25", for example), but they were equally autocratic. I have no sense that this has ever been an effect of kingdoms "evolving" of their own account, with the SEM simply "capturing" the trend into a more "standard" format. But this is only my take on things, and I wholly admit your mileage may well vary (but you're still wrong ).

With kindness,

Alfred of Carlyle

Logan: "i feel that sca sport combat is a unique and staisfying style of combat that includes fighting from ones knees."

PaulB: "I'll second that opinion."

Two words: strawberry dinosaurs.

carlyle wrote:Vebrand,



Directed touch came into being while I was in the West. I believe the SEM was from Calontir (was it Siridean?). I can say with some authority that this particular rule has been an issue in this kingdom since the day it was instituted. Or, perhaps I can say it isn't an issue, because it is largely ignored -- but it was -never- accepted and, from all I can tell, will never gain acceptance here. It may have been "quiet" where you were, but it petted the cat backwards here from the very beginning.

In the end, I concede that we may have to simply agree to disagree on how we think things work. But realize that, when I started, the minimum armor was a helm, gorget, and kneepads. The Midrealm required hockey gloves or better; Meridies was content with welding gloves. From my perspective and experience, every rule that has since come down calling for increased armor or restrictions in technique have, by-and-large, had the appearance of rule-by-fiat, without consensus or consent, without dialogue, without evidence, and entirely at the whim of the current SEM. Some of these rules have been sensible (reducing the eyeslot to 1" from 1.25", for example), but they were equally autocratic. I have no sense that this has ever been an effect of kingdoms "evolving" of their own account, with the SEM simply "capturing" the trend into a more "standard" format. But this is only my take on things, and I wholly admit your mileage may well vary (but you're still wrong ).

With kindness,

Alfred of Carlyle

LOL..........

I thinking the samething last night. We will end up agreeing to disagree. Nothing new for some of our diccussions, but I am still always right


With respect,
Vebrand

carlyle wrote:Vebrand,



Directed touch came into being while I was in the West. I believe the SEM was from Calontir (was it Siridean?). I can say with some authority that this particular rule has been an issue in this kingdom since the day it was instituted. Or, perhaps I can say it isn't an issue, because it is largely ignored -- but it was -never- accepted and, from all I can tell, will never gain acceptance here. It may have been "quiet" where you were, but it petted the cat backwards here from the very beginning.

In the end, I concede that we may have to simply agree to disagree on how we think things work. But realize that, when I started, the minimum armor was a helm, gorget, and kneepads. The Midrealm required hockey gloves or better; Meridies was content with welding gloves. From my perspective and experience, every rule that has since come down calling for increased armor or restrictions in technique have, by-and-large, had the appearance of rule-by-fiat, without consensus or consent, without dialogue, without evidence, and entirely at the whim of the current SEM. Some of these rules have been sensible (reducing the eyeslot to 1" from 1.25", for example), but they were equally autocratic. I have no sense that this has ever been an effect of kingdoms "evolving" of their own account, with the SEM simply "capturing" the trend into a more "standard" format. But this is only my take on things, and I wholly admit your mileage may well vary (but you're still wrong ).

With kindness,

Alfred of Carlyle

LOL..........

I thinking the samething last night. We will end up agreeing to disagree. Nothing new for some of our diccussions, but I am still always right


With respect,
Vebrand

Saint-Sever wrote:An MD is not likely, IMO, to be more than academically aware of what human beings are capable of immediately following massive trauma. Even ER docs see their most of their patients 20-30 minutes after the injury has occurred.

Ask a cop, firefighter or combat medic what people are routinely capable of after severe wounding. The answer might surprise you-- it would be an argument more in favor of not acting wounds out all.

Hear, hear! When I first started reading this thread I was taken by two thoughts. The first was, "I'll bet that MD hasn't done a lot of time in an ER." The second was "Cool! I'll be leggin' 'em all over the field and leaving 'em to decorate the landscape like daisies!"

I'm good at leg blows.

I'd recommend that some reading be done about the forensic evidence in the bodies recovered from the mass graves after the Battle of Wisby - in which it was shown that guys stayed in the game after some pretty horrific damage.

I'd say that the goal of providing more realism is not served by this proposed rule. I'd say that if you've been hit hard enough to lose your ability to stand, and moving - however uncomfortable - provides a way to stay alive, you'll do it. I'd recommend that the good doctor walk downstairs to ER and talk to some of the cops about how guys with leg wounds can't move.

Then scrap this silly rule.

from the GA KEM on the Gleann Abhann Fighter's group:

Greetings All,
I'll attempt to answer some of your questions.
Given the feedback I've received, I've removed the provisions regarding
walking on the knees. We'll return to the original rule.
**removing extraneous content regarding other rules from his email here**
William


Thanks

Adam.

Rhyance Llew ap Llewellyn wrote:Hear, hear! When I first started reading this thread I was taken by two thoughts. The first was, "I'll bet that MD hasn't done a lot of time in an ER."

I'd recommend that the good doctor walk downstairs to ER and talk to some of the cops about how guys with leg wounds can't move.

Actually, our Earl Marshall is an ER Doctor. He has spent plenty of time in the emergency room forming his opinions.

While there are many instances of heroic efforts on the part of wounded combattants to accomplish astounding things, you have to remember that they are heroic and astounding because they are rare. That is why they are reported and glorified. It does not happen every time. Not by a long shot.

However, he set the rule back to the SCA standard for ease of use.

Radu

Somewhere in the darkest, foulest recesses I harbored the evil image of some rules-lawyering fighter subverting the good Earl Marshal's intent by laying down and "log-rolling" his way to a new location.

You'll have to excuse me -- the nice man in the white coat says it's time to adjust the straps on my jacket, so I have to go now...

AoC

Moose wrote:

Rhyance Llew ap Llewellyn wrote:Hear, hear! When I first started reading this thread I was taken by two thoughts. The first was, "I'll bet that MD hasn't done a lot of time in an ER."

I'd recommend that the good doctor walk downstairs to ER and talk to some of the cops about how guys with leg wounds can't move.

Actually, our Earl Marshall is an ER Doctor. He has spent plenty of time in the emergency room forming his opinions.

What an amazing coincidence - my predecessor in Æthelmearc as KEM is an ER doc as well! I'll have to float this question by him, and see what his opinion is.