The Armour Archive

Tournament: Try not to let it get trapped in the first place! Since that obviously hasn't worked, use the haft as a lever and bull rush, taking your opponent off balence. They won't be able to throw a good shot while they are. They should 'flap', attempting to regain their balance, loosing their hold on your haft. Recover, disengage and reset. There always is the previous mentioned just letting go, a cheesy respose to a cheesy tactic.

Melee/War: If you've got support and are attacking, as above. If not, and carry a back up weapon like a dagger or short mace, as above but dropping a hand to draw the weapon. Push the haft up as high and into this weapon shoulder as you can. If alone and in the open, draw back-ups and go two-weapon. I say this as I carry a broadsword (left hip), shortsword (small of back) and dagger (right hip) when fielding with a pole. You also can have a squire with a bow shoot the pud. Then it's easy to pick up your pole.

Trystan of Anglesey wrote:

Ceddie wrote:What is so dark side about it? All he needs to do is let go and slap me in the head for getting inside so tight.

What if he doesn't let go? What then...?

Then he gets a free E-ticket. the intent is NOT to hurt him, it's to get him off of the weapon. If you WANT to hurt him, that is easy but it also is a different hobby. If you give him a little spin he should let go, if not give a bit more, he should come off, depending on his ballance and the amount of effort he wants to make you use, he will decide how much of a ride he gets.

Aaron wrote:

blackbow wrote:

Olaf Haraldson wrote:Blackbow, trapping a pole weapon is not illegal. Trapping, grabbing, etc. the BLADE of a weapon is forbidden, but grabbing onto a haft or handle is acceptable by society standards.

Just one of the reasons I love the 2" rattan Scramsax in my belt sheath.

Sorry if I misunderstood what the original question was, but the word TRAPPING is different from GRABBING.

GRABBING a haft/etc is fine with your HAND. TRAPPING is a completely different animal. TRAPPING is pinning the weapon by shoving it under your arm/shield and is illegal under any circumstances.

So are we talking about TRAPPING or GRABBING? The original post I saw read about TRAPPING.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

Could you cite evidence, please?

-Aaron

Sure. Glad to.

SCA Marshal's Handbook, available online, rev. 2001.

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/com ... ndbook.pdf

III. CONVENTIONS OF COMBAT

Section B. Behavior on the field

Rule 6. Any behavior that takes deliberate advantage of an opponent’s chivalry or safety-consciousness, or that takes deliberate unfair advantage of an opponent, is prohibited.

But I know what you're saying... "that doesn't specify anything against trapping." So here ya go.

IV. THE USE OF WEAPONS AND SHIELDS

A. Weapons shall be used in accordance with their design (i. e. spears may only be
used for thrusting, axes for striking along the edge of the blade, et cetera).

2. The blade of a weapon may not be grasped at any time, nor may it be trapped
in contact with the fighter’s body as a means of preventing the opponent’s use
of the weapon. Neither may the blade of a fighter’s own weapon be grasped to
enhance the block.

[bolded by me for emphasis]

Hope that clarifies TRAPPING vs. GRABBING. Section B clearly defines what cannot be grabbed and, by exclusion, permits GRABBING a weapon haft. But Section A rule 2 clearly disallows TRAPPING.

Edit:

yes, I see that the rule specifies that you can't TRAP the blade and makes no mention of the haft. Ironically enough I'm forced to resort to Dante's phraseology: If you TRAP my polearm and claim that you're trapping the haft and that that makes it all right, you're cheesy. And I will, in tournament, either A) simply let go of the polearm, and be cheesy in return, or B) get it back in a way that is perfectly consistent with the rules as written. If you're dumb enough to trap my polearm or spear in a melee, I WILL get it back right there on the spot, assuming I am able, and I WILL do it in a way that is perfectly consistent with the rules as written. Whether anybody thinks that way is brutish and lacking in skill is their problem. Personally I find bumrushing somebody with an unbreakable shield, and trapping weapons, to be lacking in skill as well.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

So...
It's not illegal, just cheesy? Section two clearly disallows trapping... of a BLADE. How is bumrushing you and getting hold of your weapon cheesy? I should set back at your range and let you hit me? Hells no... I'm going to get in your lunch and hit you till it is good, that's kinda the way it works. If you have to get rid of me in a somewhat brutish manner... good on ya, I had it coming. This is a contact sport.

If someone traps my axe, or my spear... oh fun!! Then that's one hand they're not using, and out comes the scramsax. Or the hand axe. or the sword from it's scabbard. I like to keep my options open.

Olaf Haraldson wrote:So...
It's not illegal, just cheesy? Section two clearly disallows trapping... of a BLADE. How is bumrushing you and getting hold of your weapon cheesy? I should set back at your range and let you hit me? Hells no... I'm going to get in your lunch and hit you till it is good, that's kinda the way it works. If you have to get rid of me in a somewhat brutish manner... good on ya, I had it coming. This is a contact sport.

If someone traps my axe, or my spear... oh fun!! Then that's one hand they're not using, and out comes the scramsax. Or the hand axe. or the sword from it's scabbard. I like to keep my options open.

Olaf:

With a typical heater shield I don't think it's possible for you to trap the haft of my weapon against your body without trapping the blade (of a polearm). No, I don't expect you to sit back and let me pound you. But you can easily get close without trapping the weapon. That's the whole point (pun not intended but boy they sure are getting out of hand ). I completely agree with the last two sentences of your first paragraph though. But you'd be surprised how many people I run into (pun intended) that don't. & thus the problem.

JB

If I grab the haft of your weapon and you let it go, I would be happy to accept your yield. Don't expect me to give it back because a hold is called.
You can put your hands back on it and we can resume the fight but if it keeps up it's a yield.

It is against the rules IMHO to release your weapon to avoid getting hit. I think all kingdoms have the "a fighter cannot render themselves helpless" rule. Lumps in with the "I'm not looking at you so you can't hit me!!!" rule and the "If I keep falling over you can't hit me!!' rule.

-BigJohn

blackbow wrote:Edit:

yes, I see that the rule specifies that you can't TRAP the blade and makes no mention of the haft. Ironically enough I'm forced to resort to Dante's phraseology: If you TRAP my polearm and claim that you're trapping the haft and that that makes it all right, you're cheesy. And I will, in tournament, either A) simply let go of the polearm, and be cheesy in return, or B) get it back in a way that is perfectly consistent with the rules as written. If you're dumb enough to trap my polearm or spear in a melee, I WILL get it back right there on the spot, assuming I am able, and I WILL do it in a way that is perfectly consistent with the rules as written. Whether anybody thinks that way is brutish and lacking in skill is their problem. Personally I find bumrushing somebody with an unbreakable shield, and trapping weapons, to be lacking in skill as well.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

I have grabbed MANY hafts and TRAPPED many hafts. I do not consider this unchivalrous, or cheesy. I consider this a good use of range and footwork. If you thrust me with a polearm and it goes under my arm and I clamp down on the haft then you made the mistake of throwing the shot to deep. Why am I cheesy for capitalizing on that? Now, if you can wrench it way causing the blade to "slide" across my arm, then I will take that arm as a shot since it would probably have cut me severely. I have grabbed spears in melee before, yanked them out of others hands and put them behind the line. I do not consider this cheesy. I consider this a good tactic against a bunch of spearmen.

Do you consider shield hooks on spears or shield snatching cheesy to?

Good point there... I wasn't thinking about trapping against the body... I avoid that, largely because I've been knocked pizzling upward as a result. I do tend to grab hafts and handles quite a bit, and have no problem with my opponent getting a bit physical at that point...

And so people don't think I'm one of these hulking Northern brutes who like to beat on smaller fighters... Yeah, I'm huge, but only in my mind. I weigh in at between 120 and 130 without armour. I do have a taste for the close physical game, but Ian McD and a few others are slowly helping to break me of that...

InsaneIrish wrote:

blackbow wrote:Edit:

yes, I see that the rule specifies that you can't TRAP the blade and makes no mention of the haft. Ironically enough I'm forced to resort to Dante's phraseology: If you TRAP my polearm and claim that you're trapping the haft and that that makes it all right, you're cheesy. And I will, in tournament, either A) simply let go of the polearm, and be cheesy in return, or B) get it back in a way that is perfectly consistent with the rules as written. If you're dumb enough to trap my polearm or spear in a melee, I WILL get it back right there on the spot, assuming I am able, and I WILL do it in a way that is perfectly consistent with the rules as written. Whether anybody thinks that way is brutish and lacking in skill is their problem. Personally I find bumrushing somebody with an unbreakable shield, and trapping weapons, to be lacking in skill as well.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

I have grabbed MANY hafts and TRAPPED many hafts. I do not consider this unchivalrous, or cheesy. I consider this a good use of range and footwork. If you thrust me with a polearm and it goes under my arm and I clamp down on the haft then you made the mistake of throwing the shot to deep. Why am I cheesy for capitalizing on that? Now, if you can wrench it way causing the blade to "slide" across my arm, then I will take that arm as a shot since it would probably have cut me severely. I have grabbed spears in melee before, yanked them out of others hands and put them behind the line. I do not consider this cheesy. I consider this a good tactic against a bunch of spearmen.

Do you consider shield hooks on spears or shield snatching cheesy to?

If I hook your shield and yank it away, you're not out of the fight. If I take your spear away and keep it, you're out of the fight, and you drove too far to sit out of the fight just because somebody took your spear. If I ever end up with a weapon, assuming it's a res battle, I either give it back after a minute or two, or somebody from the other side declares themselves dead (or calls a very temporary, short-range truce), and comes and asks for their weapon back, and I give it to them. And I've been on both sides of this many times. For me, it's not about being able to go "neener neener, you can't fight any more because I got your spear", it's about keeping score ("a leg is as good as a kill...and a lost weapon is as good as a leg"). If it's a non-res battle, though, tough noogies, but it won't last for long.

JB

"Trapping is illegal under any circumstances."

I too would be crious to know where you get this from, unless it is an interpretation of the wrestling rule:

IV.A.
3.Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponent's torso, limbs, shield, or weapon's striking surface, blade, or head is prohibited.

I think that the specification of "striking surface, blade" and "head" here implies the exclusion of a haft from this rule.

Cheers

Aeth

i might not have read the other answers correctly... but how about stepping on the outside of your pole, and use the guy who's hooked it, to disrupt his own shield line or his friends fighting.

you are big and strong, so when someone grabs your pole and sticks it close to his body, he has just provided you with the means to move him around on the battlefield.

hope this makes sense...

adamstjohn wrote:"Trapping is illegal under any circumstances."

I too would be crious to know where you get this from, unless it is an interpretation of the wrestling rule:

IV.A.
3.Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponent's torso, limbs, shield, or weapon's striking surface, blade, or head is prohibited.

I think that the specification of "striking surface, blade" and "head" here implies the exclusion of a haft from this rule.

Cheers

Aeth

Hey - I could be wrong. All I know is that a lot of the marshals have themselves a shitfit whenever anybody's weapon gets trapped.

Then again, a lot of the marshals have themselves a shitfit whenever anything happens outside what they consider the norm.

JB

Ironically enough I'm forced to resort to Dante's phraseology

adamstjohn wrote:"Trapping is illegal under any circumstances."

I too would be crious to know where you get this from, unless it is an interpretation of the wrestling rule:

IV.A.
3.Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponent's torso, limbs, shield, or weapon's striking surface, blade, or head is prohibited.

I think that the specification of "striking surface, blade" and "head" here implies the exclusion of a haft from this rule.

Cheers

Aeth

Thanks for that quote, Aeth. I'd be willing to bet that trapping a weapon would very quickly end up in a wrestling match. But if you read the sentence again... "Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping..." I don't think the specification of striking surface, blade, and head were to imply the exclusion of a haft; I think they were to specifically include those areas that, if otherwise not listed, might have been interpreted as subject to being able to be grappled/wrestled/trapped, even though it's obvious to a lot of people that grappling the striking surface of a weapon might not be the best way to go.

Goody. Yet another gray area for the SEM to interpret or reword.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

My pollaxe can trap your sword arm, and allow me to place it where I want it.

Is that illegal?

-Aaron

should be as long as it's the weapon thats trapped not the arm but people will cry it is a gray area and nobody likes losing offenceive capabilitys it does also limit yours unless you are in a melee then it can just be evil when your friends pay attention.........oh aaron when did you come over to the pole side of the force....

edit to clarify

critter wrote:aaron when did you come over to the pole side of the force....

Just about the day I landed in Japan. It just "clicked".

-Aaron

Aaron wrote:My pollaxe can trap your sword arm, and allow me to place it where I want it.

Is that illegal?

-Aaron

generally the marshals see that as grappling/wrestling. If you manipulate the weapon that's attached to the arm, that's fine.

jonathan blackbow

blackbow wrote:

Aaron wrote:My pollaxe can trap your sword arm, and allow me to place it where I want it.

Is that illegal?

-Aaron

generally the marshals see that as grappling/wrestling. If you manipulate the weapon that's attached to the arm, that's fine.

jonathan blackbow

I have to disagree here - my interpretation of the Society rules (and it's the most common interpretation in my kingdom) goes something like this:


You can place your weapon anywhere you like against any legal target area of your opponent, including his shield and weapon, and use your weapon to control him in most any way you like, so long as you don't strike an illegal blow in the process (which includes striking him if you've disarmed in in single combat, or if you've caused him to become prone).

You may place your shield against *only* his weapon or shield, and attempt to control as above.

You may place you body against his shield or *haft* or other non-striking portions of his weapon (including quillons, guards, basket hilts, &c), and attempt to control as above.

You may grab and hold onto the *haft* or other non-striking portions of his weapon (including quillons, guards, basket hilts, &c), and attempt to control as above.

You may never try to control your opponent's body with your body (directly) or your shield.

IMO, the wrestling / grappling restrictions only come in to play when you grab on to your opponent's body.


Now, YMMV in yor kingdom, but that's the way I was taught, and seems to be pretty much the rule in most every place I've gone.

Koredono wrote:

blackbow wrote:

Aaron wrote:My pollaxe can trap your sword arm, and allow me to place it where I want it.

Is that illegal?

-Aaron

generally the marshals see that as grappling/wrestling. If you manipulate the weapon that's attached to the arm, that's fine.

jonathan blackbow

I have to disagree here - my interpretation of the Society rules (and it's the most common interpretation in my kingdom) goes something like this:


You can place your weapon anywhere you like against any legal target area of your opponent, including his shield and weapon, and use your weapon to control him in most any way you like, so long as you don't strike an illegal blow in the process (which includes striking him if you've disarmed in in single combat, or if you've caused him to become prone).

You may place your shield against *only* his weapon or shield, and attempt to control as above.

You may place you body against his shield or *haft* or other non-striking portions of his weapon (including quillons, guards, basket hilts, &c), and attempt to control as above.

You may grab and hold onto the *haft* or other non-striking portions of his weapon (including quillons, guards, basket hilts, &c), and attempt to control as above.

You may never try to control your opponent's body with your body (directly) or your shield.

IMO, the wrestling / grappling restrictions only come in to play when you grab on to your opponent's body.


Now, YMMV in yor kingdom, but that's the way I was taught, and seems to be pretty much the rule in most every place I've gone.

My mileage has, indeed, varied. But I like your interpretation.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

Ha! I remember this - back from when I was just a bachgen. A fellow named Oberon thrust a halberd at me simultaneously with my thrust of a naginata to him. Both of us parried - don't ask me how. Instantly we were corps-a-corps, nose-a-nose, almost tete-a-tete.

I abandoned my naginata and wrapped my left arm snake-like, around his halberd, between his hands. He tried to get it free. Not the ghost of a chance. Meanwhile my right hand had snaked back to my belt behind my right hip to grab my dagger in the classic "dudgeon' grip. I was still in front of him, but my right hand was behind him.

I got in three hard thrusts to his left kidney region before he even realized I had the dagger.

Always have a dagger.

Rhyance Llew ap Llewellyn wrote:Ha! I remember this - back from when I was just a bachgen. A fellow named Oberon thrust a halberd at me simultaneously with my thrust of a naginata to him. Both of us parried - don't ask me how. Instantly we were corps-a-corps, nose-a-nose, almost tete-a-tete.

I abandoned my naginata and wrapped my left arm snake-like, around his halberd, between his hands. He tried to get it free. Not the ghost of a chance. Meanwhile my right hand had snaked back to my belt behind my right hip to grab my dagger in the classic "dudgeon' grip. I was still in front of him, but my right hand was behind him.

I got in three hard thrusts to his left kidney region before he even realized I had the dagger.

Always have a dagger.

You've got to be careful with that, though - a close friend that I often do spear duelling (one on one) with always carries a back-up sword on him. Most engagements we kill at normal spear range, but reasonably often we close to sword / dagger range, and I've drawn his sword and killed him with it, probably more times than he's drawn and killed me with it. For a while, he intentionally stopped wearing it when we were doing single spear work, 'cause he was tired of getting killed with his own sword in a spear fight

Simple. Let go of it. Under SCA tourney rules, he has to give it back to you.

You have just deliberately disarmed yourself. Your options are to draw a backup weapon or yield.

2. The blade of a weapon may not be grasped at any time, nor may it be trapped
in contact with the fighter’s body as a means of preventing the opponent’s use
of the weapon. Neither may the blade of a fighter’s own weapon be grasped to
enhance the block.

I read this as saying that the blade not be trapped, not the entire weapon. The rest of the ruling seems to only refer to instances of contact with the blade.

Noe wrote:

Simple. Let go of it. Under SCA tourney rules, he has to give it back to you.

You have just deliberately disarmed yourself. Your options are to draw a backup weapon or yield.

Nope, not under SCA rules - if you are unarmed (which, BTW, if you have a sheathed back-up weapon you are *not* unarmed) in single combat, "Hold" is called, and you are allowed to retrieve your weapon; there are those who might think disparaging thoughts of you if you were to do this, especially with any regularity, but it is the way the rules are written.

Now, some places have rules like if you drop your weapon a certain number of times you must yield (often the same places that have the 'backing into the list ropes a certain number of times and are you're legged or dead' rules), but that's not a Society rule.

Noe wrote:

2. The blade of a weapon may not be grasped at any time, nor may it be trapped in contact with the fighter’s body as a means of preventing the opponent’s use of the weapon. Neither may the blade of a fighter’s own weapon be grasped to enhance the block.

I read this as saying that the blade not be trapped, not the entire weapon. The rest of the ruling seems to only refer to instances of contact with the blade.

Correct - you grab on to, or trap against your body, any non-striking surface of a weapon. And the only exception to the second part of that rule is if you're in a place where 'halfswording' is legal, and is applicable to the situation.

So basically anytime I don't like how the fight is going, I should drop my weapon so we have to reset? Yucko.

Noe wrote:So basically anytime I don't like how the fight is going, I should drop my weapon so we have to reset? Yucko.

That is, in fact, the way the rules are written but some (many? most?( kingdoms have rules to the effect of "if you become disarmed [x] times during a bout, you must yield". And it has no effect in melee - if you become unarmed, well, it just sucks to be you (which is why I always have at least one back-up weapon in melee, and have gotten good at taking away opponents' spears and polearms and then using said weapon against them).

To be honest, I very rarely see this happen (marshalling ~20 years, *way* less than once a year in tourneys, I'd say probably a half-dozen to a dozen times total) - most fighters are so focused on the bout that should the relevant situation arise that the conscious thought of "if I drop my weapon, it'll be to my advantage, or at least remove my present disadvantage". More common things I see are a) someone fighting two-weapon intentionally dropping a weapon, and while their opponent is momentarily distracted, killing them with their remaining weapon, or b) someone who's lost an arm while fighting with a two-handed weapon, dropping that weapon and drawing a one-handed back-up weapon to continue the fight.