Pennsic "The Warriors of History Tourney" (U3)

For those of us who wish to talk about the many styles and facets of recreating Medieval armed combat.
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron »

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:
Aaron wrote:Fighting from the knees just seems weird to me.
-Aaron


You still fight from your knees? Why give up one perfectly good leg?


Because I lack the comedic timing and style of John Cleese to be able to hop on one leg and fight. ;)

-Aaron
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Post by D. Sebastian »

Murdock,

Beautiful kit.

What is the time period/ location?
Is it based on any references in particular?
Do all the parts plausably go together ?
Looks like non-modern foot-wear, am I correct?
:D
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D. Sebastian
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Post by D. Sebastian »

Counted blows is a good way of doing a tourney. However, what we are doing is very ambitious and we are trying to encourage as many participants as we can. The vast majority of SCAdian fighters are comfortable with the current ruleset. Therefore, we're focusing on the primary goal of documenting your kit and encourageing/inspiring excellence. (Your kit is inspiring). And 2 winners will be chosen. One on martial prowess, and the other by popular choice.


Some ideas we're floating for the future:

We are considering having a "theme" each year (all pre 17th Cent personas fighting in a Roman Gladitor style, or Counted blows, or Italian Bridge, or etc, or combinations of those, etc);
or

Having a part of the event where we break up into like timeperiod groups and each group fights a theme that trys to be in keeping with those groups (4th cent kits and earlier - Roman Gladiator; 12th Cent kits and later - counted blows; etc) then the winners get toghther for "finals".
also

Allowing the 2 winners to recommend the next years format.


But we want to KISS it this year, and REALLY focus on the documentable kit aspect of the idea.



Murdock wrote:no offense ment

" We endeavor to show that SCA martial prowess and a high level of historical accuracy need not be mutually exclusive. Rather than make a special style tournament/competition, we chose to keep the focus on the wonderous level of armour accuracy. "

How is that inconsistant with the use of counted blows rules?

The style is argueably more difficult than the standard rules set since the one shot kill is eliminated, the hed for a leg trade is eliminated, as well as various other scadianisms. It requires more stamina, the ability to throw many effective combos, and the willingness to be struck several times. The standard rules encourage one very fast opening shot of fight ender.

The standard rules in many ways discourage the wearing of the very equipment you are attempting to get one the field, in favor of an modern a-period set of equipment not represntative of any period. They defiantely discourage the use of many weapons, other than sword and shield and on medieval styles like SCA 2 stick, sword and inverted greatsword, and SCA "madu".


That being said i will likely try to attend irregardless of the particular rules set, it sounds like fun if the spirit of the list is enforced. The victory conditions however, will greatly influence what weapon i select.
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Post by carlyle »

Murdock -- That toddler is going to need more ducttape to be list legal...

(and stop pushing on the counted blows. You're right, of course, but this project is beyond planning and is now in the execution phase. Work with them on next year's format, and let's see what happens with this one)

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Post by Cet »

The standard victory conditions don't bother me too much. I'm seeing it as a nice complement to Asbjorn's tourneys which, except for plate and mail, stress period victory conditions and have no appearance requirement.

One former let the any fighter regardles of kit get a taste for alternate victory forms and the later will hopefully help demonstrate that accurate armour isn't a insurmountable obstacle to success in standard SCA armoured combat.
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Post by freiman the minstrel »

I'm in, if I qualify for admission.

My maille has the wrong rivets for my period, and I use a bar grille helmet. I also have some footwear problems, but I am unwilling to give up good foot protection.

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Post by Oswyn_de_Wulferton »

Freiman, if you look back (1st page), I believe that D. Sebastian said that they are really looking for maille. I dont have the money to do riveted right now so I am planning on making a butted hauberk (I know, but when you are in college and money is really tight but you have lots of free time, its a start to looking better), and he said that from spear range, it all looks a lot alike. So I think you are ok, judging from his last post.
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D. Sebastian
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Post by D. Sebastian »

At 'a spears throw', most maile is acceptable.
Unless its made from key rings or pop-tops, its prob ok.


:wink:

Get me a pic of your kit freiman.
Let me know time/place and etc.

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Post by Brennan mac Fearghus »

On counted blows, and other more historic victory conditions...

What Carlyle said is true. We are well underway with this project. As Di Sebastian said, we are examining many other avenues for the coming years, but wanted to go with a "SCA standard" rules tournament for the first go round for a few reasons:

1) To focus on the wonderful harnesses we hope to see present
2) To encourage as much participation as possible
3) Because most of us who are organizing it are new at this, and it's easier to get our feet wet this way.

I really do appreciate everyone's input, and it is all being filed away for future improvements. This year, though, we really just want to get the tournament off the ground.

Thanks, all, for your support. I'm looking very much forward to seeing you all there.

Any questions, you can contact Di Sebastian at mattyd@mattyd.com or me at brennan@saphyne.com.

Thanks again. :D
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Post by Murdock »

"What is the time period/ location?"

The the rig is late 14th century. From about 1375 to 1395.

"Is it based on any references in particular?"

Several pieces are based on those from the Chartres Cathederal. The body armour is from the Churburg collection, the #14 as opposed to the ever SCA popular but over represented Churburg 13. Charles Dubois coat underneeth.

The older pic the arms and legs are based on those seen in effigies such as John de Argentine 1360.

The currnet rig is more based on the museum pieces mentioned and effigies such as George FelBridge 1400, Robert Swynboprne 1391, William Echingham 1387.

"Do all the parts plausably go together ?"

Yeah, as does the clothing underneeth. The whole thing is contemporary and geographically consistant.

"Looks like non-modern foot-wear, am I correct? "

I think i'm wearing my old alistair shoes in most of the pictuers. I also have a set of revival's low boots. But yes. Working on mail soralets.

should also have a rivited male haubergon by then.

Last thing i'll say on this.

"1) To focus on the wonderful harnesses we hope to see present
2) To encourage as much participation as possible."

The people who can pull off the rig, they will show up anyway.

With standard rules your gonna get someone trying to sqeak by with hidden plastic or just a kidney belt and some hidden stuff.

Yall are gonna have to be willing to say, go play in another list to the sportys, or thier gonna try and wiggle thier way in. I've seen it in "plate and mail lists" over and over. Just not those run by Asbjorn.

Don't worry about how many folks you have in it. Worry about getting who you want in it.

I think yall will pull off a fine list in the end.

oh and thanks for the "vote" your Grace Alaric, i missed that one.
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freiman the minstrel
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Post by freiman the minstrel »

D. Sebastian wrote:
At 'a spears throw', most maile is acceptable.
Unless its made from key rings or pop-tops, its prob ok.


:wink:

Get me a pic of your kit freiman.
Let me know time/place and etc.

mattyd@mattyd.com


Look, I said IF I qualify. I have some real problems with the kit. I don't want to sound like I am wearing a living history rig. I am trying however.

I am shooting for a Saxon in Mercia in about the forth quarter of the seven hundreds. I have only one old pic of the rig, and it has changed since then.

BEFORE YOU LOOK AT THE PIC, I have the legs to replace the ones in the shot, but I don't have the pants to cover them yet. I have some real footwear issues, but I am trying to solve them. The bazubands are an SCAism, but they work just as well covered by the tunic as over it. The new sheild is edged with rawhide, rather than garden hose. The gorget has been replaced with something a lot lower profile. I am working on it, and it will be better by August.

But what you are doing is exactly what I think ought to be done. You are encouraging a period appearance on the field by offering a carrot, rather than some attempt at a stick (so to speak). I want to support you in this endevour in any way possible, and if I have to spend a few pfennigs to do it, I will.

anyway, here's the pic.
[img]http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3576/fight0325ax.jpg[/img]
Sorry it isn't better.

freiman
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Post by Brennan mac Fearghus »

Freiman, responded via email.

Thanks.
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Post by SirAngus »

Why do I see people here always posting that period armor isnt competitive? Good period armor IS highly competetive. I have spring steel armour that weighs less than plastic or aluminum armour that I have worn and it fits me so well that it doesnt bind me at all...

I'm also not the only one who recognises that bargrills are just a safty factor... right? The are ment to represent an open faced helmet... we just like our noses not all mushed up :P If I can pretend that a rattan stick is a sword, then I can also pretent that my bargrill doesnt exist....

My hat is off to you VDK. This is an excellent endevour. If I can get the enchanted listfield going this pennsic, would you like to have the tournament there? As of yet I have not heard from the marshal in charge to know if we can actually have a field... As soon as I do, I will post here and start to organise what will be needed, wanted and provided!
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Post by Winterfell »

I have always considered the bar grill on my helm to be liket the ones used in behords and described by Rene of ANjou.
But that's just me.
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Post by armoradict »

I love this idea and you have my full support. I hope that it is successful and becomes a tradition. I can't make pennsic this year, but if you have it next year as well, count me in!
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Post by Vladimir »

This sounds like a great idea. Though since I cannot document the use of leather for lamellar or for bazubands I may not qualify.

10th century Varangian Rus


http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bd_vladim ... pg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bd_vladim ... pg&.src=ph


I have to use 2 pictures, the first is without the SCA helmet, and the second is with the helm and gauntlets. I painted the gauntlets flat black to make them stand out less. For tourneys I usually wear the maille. In the second pic I was just to tired to lug the extra weight around.

The boots in the first picture are plane black leather boots with buckles.
The gorget in the second picture has since been covered with leather and is no longer obvious.

The email included information about Lamellar and bazubands from Silk Roads Armoury.
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Post by freiman the minstrel »

Vladimir,

Image

That's a heartbreaker of a dent on the lovely helmet. How did you manage to get that particular one?

f
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Post by D. Sebastian »

10th century Varangian Rus


Beautiful kit!

I believe there was a Persian leather lamellar find...

I don't know if leather bazubands existed, or when bazubands were used by the Rus... We need to consult with some of the guru's around here (hint! hint!)

Is there a particular historical image that your kit is based off of?

I hope that there is some evidence, your kit looks good. Do you fight only pole, or also sword and shield? What does the shield look like?
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D. Sebastian
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Post by D. Sebastian »

Questions posed:


With standard rules your gonna get someone trying to sqeak by with hidden plastic or just a kidney belt and some hidden stuff.

Yall are gonna have to be willing to say, go play in another list to the sportys, or thier gonna try and wiggle thier way in. I've seen it in "plate and mail lists" over and over. Just not those run by Asbjorn.


Some personas wore very little armour, or had parts more armoured than others. We must weigh this with the armour standards of heavy list and find the compromise.

Several of the Yomen of (Barony of) Stonemarche (East) portray Personas that wore chain, a helm and not much else. They do an excellent job of carrying that off and still being armoured to the rules. At "a spear throw" (~ 30') it is how they look that matters.

Do they look like they stepped out of the pages of history? For the most part, Yes!

Can they document it? We'll see.
Its their job to "document" it - not ours.

Who cares if they are wearing plastic or steel to make themselves list legal. What counts is that they don't look like they are wearing football shoulder pads under the chainmaile.


Am I supposed to be able to document my entire kit from period sources (seperate) or does it need to be a contiguous and logical whole? EG can I wear an italian harness circa 1376 and a german helmet circa @1370? Or a mix of the two.


My thought is - we cannot be living history, but we can try to be accurate while forgiving the requirements of safety.
Is the kit justifyable and documentable?
Would the German helmet be found with an Italian harness?
If you can answer yes to those questions and document / justify it -- then the kit is good. 2 Armour laurels and a Duke (and likely a chorus of kings/dukes/knights who happen to be on hand) will have the final say.


'Spears throw'


Approx 10 paces - approx 30 feet?



fairly standard SCA kit


There are some great / beautiful kits that are completely a-historical or complete "SCAdianisms". We give a nod to those who desire to look good. However, we're looking foir more than "look good" and less than living history. We are looking for plausably accurate, and (under the rules) documentable.

Yes, we will cause some controversy and vexation. It cannont be avoided. Some will charge us with being too exclusive while others berate us for being too lax.

We are asking the people who want to ba apart of our dream to do a little work and find out what their persona should look like on the field -- and understand what is right and wrong with their kit. "An educational society" right? - We're asking entrants to educate themselves, and then then educate us. Imagine 30 - 70 guys standing around in a myriad of different styles and period list-legal harnesses. Each one can give an accurate 2 minute class to an audience about his "documentable" kit. You don't kneed to know about all of them, just your own!



Document your kit and its ok (hide what you can if its wrong). The spirit of this event -

* Encourage and inspire excellence of kit on the field.

* appear as if he walked from the pages of a history book at a spear throws distance* ... must have no glaringly un-documentable aspects (beyond those required for safety)

is the measuring stick.




welded mail


At 30', most maile is ok.


will look correct with the exception of metal poleyns for safety.


I assume this persona would have no rigid protection on the elbows and knees, and that poleyns are not glaringly out of place like a big gothic fan would be. Can you hide them? If not - you have to have knees and elbows protected - there's no way around it. Is that the only major issue with the kit?



stick to your standards


appear as if he walked from the pages of a history book at a spear throws distance* ... must have no glaringly un-documentable aspects (beyond those required for safety)


I wish you the greatest luck in this endeavor.


Thank you - from all of us, we expect you to be a part of it!
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Post by Thaddeus »

It's Yeomen, D. and they look good at sword range. :)

Most of them anyway.
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Post by Vladimir »

If you are looking at that spot just above the stupid pink sticker it isn’t a dent. It is a flaw in the photograph. There is a slight dent in the helm, put there by one of Duke Ragnar’s lefty squires but that isn’t it.

Some of the questions were answered in the email, but I’ll post them here too. I prefer two-handed weapons, but I do have a shield, it is a dished centergrip round covered with fabric and edged with that low profile edging. The shield is painted with a “norsifiedâ€Â
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Post by Jacob »

Excellent sounding event! If I can make it to pennsic this year, I will do what I can to be there. Make sure it does not conflict with any of the HCS tournies. I try to fit in as much of this type of fighting as I qualify for, and spend most of the rest of my time in classes. I will be in contact closer to the event if I can make it, to let you know what armour I will be wearing. My 13th century suit is close, but my 14th century suit is in progress and will look superior when done.

If the judges allow, I will fight anyone to a set number of blows or agreed conditions so long as it does not conflict with the tourny format or give anyone keeping score in a modern way a headache.

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Post by Tarquin Bjornsson »

how about this kit? 10th- 12th century norman



I wear bazubands on my arms cause they are better than cops, i couldn't find anyhtign that would fit the period so i where long sleeves.

i'm in the black helmet on the left:

http://www.tworavens.org/gallery/2005FallCrown/7469_G


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Post by D. Sebastian »

Gents,

Forgive me for not replying to emails and posts.
I intend to by monday.
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Post by freiman the minstrel »

Vladimir wrote:If you are looking at that spot just above the stupid pink sticker it isn’t a dent. It is a flaw in the photograph. There is a slight dent in the helm, put there by one of Duke Ragnar’s lefty squires but that isn’t it.



that makes me feel better. It is a gorgeous helm. The flaw in the pic looks like the dent you might get from a foul up with a rebated sword.

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Post by D. Sebastian »

Jacob,

Like your site.
I look forward to you sending us a pic of the kit you'd like to wear!

D. Seb



Jacob wrote:Excellent sounding event! If I can make it to pennsic this year, I will do what I can to be there. Make sure it does not conflict with any of the HCS tournies. I try to fit in as much of this type of fighting as I qualify for, and spend most of the rest of my time in classes. I will be in contact closer to the event if I can make it, to let you know what armour I will be wearing. My 13th century suit is close, but my 14th century suit is in progress and will look superior when done.

If the judges allow, I will fight anyone to a set number of blows or agreed conditions so long as it does not conflict with the tourny format or give anyone keeping score in a modern way a headache.

Jacob
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Post by Brennan mac Fearghus »

Tarquin Bjornsson wrote:how about this kit? 10th- 12th century norman

Tarquin


Tarquin,

Can you send us a photo to mattyd@mattyd.com? Also, what are you using for footwear? I can't quite make it out in the photo you posted. Thanks.

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Post by Vladimir »

Thanks. I had it custom made to fit my noggin by Cold Steel Armouries, out of New York (state). I took them a black and white photo from a museum and he sat down and designed the helm with me.


freiman the minstrel wrote:that makes me feel better. It is a gorgeous helm. The flaw in the pic looks like the dent you might get from a foul up with a rebated sword.

f
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Post by Brennan mac Fearghus »

Anyone else with questions or pics/submissions, we'd love to hear from you. Drop us a line here or at mattyd@mattyd.com
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Post by Vladimir »

A buddy of mine took pics of the shield before I covered it with new fabric, same style of arms, just nicer and cleaner.

Here is a better pictureof my gear, from the waist up at least (thanks to Ursus of Anglesy for both battle pics BTW). As I said, documentation was sent via email rather than use up bandwidth. If needed I will bring it with me to Pennsic.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bd_vladim ... pg&.src=ph

The fabric covering for the back of the helm it to hide the fact that it has a solid back at all. I cannot afford to attach maille to it.
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Post by Vladimir »

A buddy of mine took pics of the shield before I covered it with new fabric, same style of arms, just nicer and cleaner.

Here is a better pictureof my gear, from the waist up at least (thanks to Ursus of Anglesy for both battle pics BTW). As I said, documentation was sent via email rather than use up bandwidth. If needed I will bring it with me to Pennsic.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bd_vladim ... pg&.src=ph

The fabric covering for the back of the helm it to hide the fact that it has a solid back at all. I cannot afford to attach maille to it.
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