The Armour Archive

It is true that the Midrealm is utilizing a Grand Strategy similar to that which has been used by the East and it is true that their army has come a long way. I applaud and respect the learning, hard work and training that goes with it.

Currently in the East there are folks sympathetic to change at Pennsic. We see the decrease in numbers at the War as a big detriment to our game. Just 10 years ago, we were fielding Armies at Pennsic near 1000 per side. Now barely 1300 to 1400 field, total.

Some of this is due to advent of alternative large wars, some of it is due to larps, WoW and other easier pursuits but some claim Pennsic is just not fun.

I miss those Mega Army years. I would love for us to regain that magic at Pennsic once again. I want Pennsic to be fun for all who fight on its fields.

I do not personally mind outnumbered. I am a lifer. A veteran of Eislin’s War.
My concern is for those that are not, who are just getting a taste, who want to be heros for a week. I want them to come back and not be chased away by the ugliness that can occur in a romp. Pennsic 32, 34, and 36 were quite lopsided affairs.
East, Mid, Atlantian or other I want them on the field.

Let’s see the real numbers, count them and admit to them and let the record stand, let them know that they fought at the Alamo or Thermopylae some other heroic field or were they just part of an Orc horde. It is not sexy to be part of the horde, so it is hard to admit, I get it.

Lucan Dux wrote:It is true that the Midrealm is utilizing a Grand Strategy similar to that which has been used by the East and it is true that their army has come a long way. I applaud and respect the learning, hard work and training that goes with it.

Currently in the East there are folks sympathetic to change at Pennsic. We see the decrease in numbers at the War as a big detriment to our game. Just 10 years ago, we were fielding Armies at Pennsic near 1000 per side. Now barely 1300 to 1400 field, total.

Some of this is due to advent of alternative large wars, some of it is due to larps, WoW and other easier pursuits but some claim Pennsic is just not fun.

I miss those Mega Army years. I would love for us to regain that magic at Pennsic once again. I want Pennsic to be fun for all who fight on its fields.

I do not personally mind outnumbered. I am a lifer. A veteran of Eislin’s War.
My concern is for those that are not, who are just getting a taste, who want to be heros for a week. I want them to come back and not be chased away by the ugliness that can occur in a romp. Pennsic 32, 34, and 36 were quite lopsided affairs.
East, Mid, Atlantian or other I want them on the field.

Let’s see the real numbers, count them and admit to them and let the record stand, let them know that they fought at the Alamo or Thermopylae some other heroic field or were they just part of an Orc horde. It is not sexy to be part of the horde, so it is hard to admit, I get it.

Your Grace,
Some fighters are saying Pennsic just isn't fun anymore. At Pennsic 36, I heard a lot of griping about the disparity in numbers, the political games, etc. I don't have the experience to answer this question, so I'll field to the general audience: How do we, the SCA political/fighting structure as a whole, create enough of a good, hard fight that the "average fighter" wants to keep coming back to Pennsic, and yet blend it with 19 different kingdoms all vying for political and martial capital, and still have a War that's fun, engaging and worth vacation time for everyone?

I would like to add my 2 cents in on the question, What can we do to make war fun again. Well I feel there is too much going on, I mean two rez battles the same day? And then try and squeeze in the tourneys and the shopping the visiting friends and other commitments… there is just not enough time in our vacation for all of it… I would like to see a day of all tourneys no war points… I would also like to see a day where we have known world against the mid and the east, who cares if they out number the world, give us a chance to have a crack at them. I have heard from too many folks that war is just not fun anymore… this has to change.

Just my thoughts

WT

Why doesn't somebody create some sort of website where people can anonymously tell the world *why* they don't show up any more?
Some type of letter can be written that could be published in TI, the Kingdom newsletters and all over the web asking

Where did everyone go?

As far as the numbers go, you're never gonna get a handle on it because -as tons of people have already said- the numbers surge and wane from battle to battle.

The only way to get "even sides" for every battle would be to make the whole thing a tedious thing where you'd have to totaly fence the field so people could only enter through particular gates. Of course you'd need to multiply the number of Marshals needed to watch for fence jumpers. Then once you reached the estimated median number of people any more who come in get divied up first to one side then the next. So much for loyalty to ones Crown if you're running late. You'll be slapped with tape of the appropriate side and sent in to join the pick up unit.

Personally, I'm a Royalist, but if I never saw another "War Point" battle I wouldn't be too disappointed. The schedule is so full of "Gotta Be there for this one!" War points that it's the devils own time to breath between them. Especially if you fight both Rattan and Rapier. Add in Archery and you start to have trouble saving time to eat. Let alone making any of the "We're only fighting this one for FUN Battles." Then the tournies that we all want to fight in or maybe just watch.

That's a good idea of Sir Vitus' though. An anonymous elist.

The schedule was a bit hectic this year. I am all for having fewer warpoint battles in general. A few years back we set the schedule up so that folks could take Wed off to do other things.

Now do not get me wrong- I love fighting melees! What I am trying to say is that if we set up the war points for one battle a day with Wed off, EVERYONE will have the choice to either spend the rest of the time with their friends and family, go shopping, party, go to classes

OR

Fight in a tourney (Squires tourney, Best of the Best, Tuchux Charity) or another organized non point melee (Crusader Battle, Battle of the 30, Lost Boys Melee, etc) if they would rather stay on the field.

This way folks do not HAVE to take the field if they have not spent any time with their family or done some of the other fine things that there is to do at Pennsic. As a Royalist, I am going to fight every battle in which my King takes the field with His Army. I told my wife to stay home this year with the kids as I knew I would not have any time to spend with them with the schedule. I did not want to use her 5 days of vacation on something that we could not do as a family.

Keep your ideas coming as I am sure that there are folks who have influence on next year reading this post.

Duke Icefalcon wrote:Now do not get me wrong- I love fighting melees! What I am trying to say is that if we set up the war points for one battle a day with Wed off, EVERYONE will have the choice to either spend the rest of the time with their friends and family, go shopping, party, go to classes.

Maybe I'm naive, but I feel like everyone should have that choice regardless of the schedule. I loved the amount of fighting that was available this year, and hope it doesn't diminish. I fought the town and napped through the mountain pass. I took the woods battle off so I could spend the day with my wife. Is this a vacation, or a second job?

Perhaps the problem is not the hectic schedule so much as that some people do not feel that they have the option not to fight in every war point.

Here's my solution: immediately following opening ceremonies have a single field battle between the East and Midrealm. No allies. Winner of that battle wins Pennsic. There are no other war points.

There, fixed.

Nice solution!

-Aaron

And another thing!

Each corner of the field should have a "Tape Kiosk". Just set up a little wooden stand with all the different colors of tape that are going to be used throughout the war. Then, after the single warpoint field battle, the sides could be mixed and matched on the fly. Black vs. White, Yellow vs. Green, whatever.

We have water bearers. Now we need tape bearers. Change the sides in the middle of a hold for extra chaos!

Have I gone too far?

I like having to shout out your allegiance…

…“Atlantia!â€

The real problem is the pressure and the responsibility. The pressure to win (not that big a deal) and the responsibility to train, show up and care when it's time to care. "You just gotta go to the woods battle! You can't take that class, you have to be in the town battle."
I've never taken a single class! I don't have time.
Those who don't want to be paid for showing up are just staying home and escaping the whole situation. Plus, a huge chunk of guys recently entered that age where the kids are showing up.
Maybe we can build back up with guys and gals who are willing to see showing up to fight as a responsibility to all other fighters. When people show up we get the spectacle that HG Lucan was talking about.
Right now we have to deal with the facts- a crapload of guys have said a big FU to the idea of combat as a responsibility.

WilliamThomas wrote:I would like to add my 2 cents in on the question, What can we do to make war fun again. Well I feel there is too much going on, I mean two rez battles the same day? And then try and squeeze in the tourneys and the shopping the visiting friends and other commitments… there is just not enough time in our vacation for all of it… I would like to see a day of all tourneys no war points… I would also like to see a day where we have known world against the mid and the east, who cares if they out number the world, give us a chance to have a crack at them. I have heard from too many folks that war is just not fun anymore… this has to change.

Just my thoughts

WT

I disagree. The schedule was awesome this year! I was dead tired on wed. after the 2 rez battles but it was glorious! The days with all tourneys and no war points are saturday and sunday. The attendance numbers indicate that most everyone is there by saturday, so sunday is a viable tourney day.

I had to miss some stuff at the beginning of the week and I helped marshal at the field battles. There's no reason people can't take off a battle or 2 if they want. I thought the busy schedule was great. I thought the PW36 schedule was way too weak and definitely prefer that too much stuff be scheduled than too little.

Perhaps wed. could be a light schedule day with the friendship castle battles. This way people can take a rest if they want or have fun if they want and participate in the mid/east vs the world event. Wed is midnite madness, so it's good for the merchants if people aren't too tired. But the other days should be packed full of fighting like this year!

Chris

[quote="Aaron"]I like having to shout out your allegiance…
... or “Royal Zombies!â€

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:Right now we have to deal with the facts- a crapload of guys have said a big FU to the idea of combat as a responsibility.

Yep.

Responsibility isn't what Pennsic is known for.

"Come to Pennsic and be RESPONSIBLE! Everyone is doing it! Come on and get on the band wagon!"



When the hobby becomes work...it's not as fun.

And my kids are now at the age where they need me a lot more, and my duty is clear. I LOVE fighting, but duty calls and if I don't answer the call now, the kids won't call when I have plenty of time to listen to their calls.



-Aaron

igelkott wrote:There's no reason people can't take off a battle or 2 if they want. I thought the busy schedule was great.
Chris

Chris:

I respectfully disagree. As Sir Vitus so succinctly and felicitously explained, there are many of us who view fighting at Pennsic and our roles therein as a responsibility to our Kingdoms and to our comrades. We train the fighters in our units that we are a *team* -- and that as members in a team, they have an obligation not only to themselves to strive to compete to the best of their abilities and to improve their martial prowess; but also to their fellow team members to be there and to support each others' efforts. Our efforts on the field of Pennsic are indeed *our* efforts, and we stand or fall together. Melees are not fought by individuals, but by teams; and thus the decisions of the individual influence the outcome of all.

So the reason people just can't take off a battle or two is that it literally let's down the team. It diminishes us as a unit. It reduces that which we've worked for, trained for, and strived for.

I understand this may be an approach towards our game that is considerably more serious than some who just throw on some armour and jump onto the field; but for those who do play the game seriously and consider the role a responsibility to Kingdom and their fellow teammates, these things are not light considerations. They are cornerstones of how some approach the SCA and concepts like duty, honor, and loyalty which they also believe are the foundations upon which their roles in the Society are based. Others may pursue alternative conceptions (e.g., fun and frolic, profit and piracy, etc...) which are just as valid in their own right -- but for those who are on this path, Vitus' explication of "Responsibility" regarding our efforts at Pennsic is an extremely apt description of how we *must* approach our roles there and our efforts in regards to the warpoints.

This sense of duty and responsibility to King and Team to do all that's right and just towards the outcome of the war becomes less enjoyable when the war becomes extremely structured in terms of the warpoint schedule -- which is why I believe you are hearing some of the concerns that have been raised. Those who feel thusly become unable to attend the more "frivolous" or "self-oriented" activities (tournaments, shopping, pickup fights, non-warpoint melees, carousing, partying, etc...). For example, given the extremely structured scheduled this year, I personally had to leave camp in armour for Commanders' Meetings about 8am every morning and did not return from the field in armour from Commanders' Meetings until about 8pm each night. I love fighting and can't hardly get enough of the stuff, and personally consider such duties an honor... but I *would* probably have preferred a schedule that got me out of the structured activity a little earlier so I could have engaged more in pickups our tourneys or more personal activities more. Mind you, I am still honored and glad to do whatever duties I might possibly be able to provide... but more time for the other activities *would've* been nice.

I hope that provides a little deeper perspective on an alternative view.

In service,

Max Von Halstern

Hi Max,

We’ve all got more responsibilities now days. If you don’t have a family or a demanding job, I can understand the desire to take on more responsibility. I can’t even get to fighter practice more than once a quarter now, so I have no desire to take on any extra duties other than having fun when I can, if I can.

This is merely a game, and without the fun apparently there was a loss of almost 1000 fighters according to Duke Lucan.

Guilt won’t bring people to the field. Fun could though. More carrot and less stick, and an understanding that we’re not all the same might help. We all have different views on this game.

So what was the view of the ~700 or so fighters who were missing?

I’ve had people tell me I MUST fight in Pennsic battles. I want to tell them to go &&^%^& themselves because they don’t decide what I do on vacation.

If the fighters show up, thank them. And this doesn’t mean some scroll or time in court, but rather say, “Thank you!â€

This being the SCA, we all may need to adjust for the needs of sub-groups. Just as we now vary battles to include combat archery and siege engines, perhaps we will need to reduce the number of war points to accommodate those who have chosen the path that Max describes.

Wouldn't it be also possible, Max, to simply lighten the burden on those that have chosen the responsibility of a group identity, rather than trying to change the course of the war for everyone?

Aaron wrote:Without the fun apparently there was a loss of almost 1000 fighters according to Duke Lucan...

I’ve had people tell me I MUST fight in Pennsic battles. I want to tell them to go &&^%^& themselves because they don’t decide what I do on vacation.

Aaron:

Not sure you really read what I wrote. If so, I apologize for the misinterpretation that my failure to properly explain obviously entailed.

First, Pennsic is still lots of fun. Lucan is talking about the loss of 600+ fighters over more than a decade to things like WoW and other alternate options like LARP and other reenactment groups, aging SCA population with growing mundane responsibilities, shifting interests of tween demographics, insufficient SCA marketing, *AND* the internal changes at Pennsic such as overscheduling and shifts in Grand Strategy leading to outnumbered sides and such. I do not believe he was claiming that the loss of 600+ folks was caused by the outnumbering and overscheduling of the past few years.

Second, I don't know who would ever tell you that you had to fight in Pennsic or any particular battle. Certainly wouldn't be me. We let people know that they are part of a team and that their participation is important to the team. We ask people to try to make it out and to give their all. We provide incentives to folks to at least get in armour and out to the field whether they can make it through the battle or not (for example, Sir Guy offered tokens to anybody in the Northern Army of Atlantia who could make it to the field for every battle, and I personally gave two fighters from each day of fighting who provided outstanding service to the team and their teammates an authentic reproduction of period gold coins). I believed we said "Thank You" quite a bit, and if you were there I believe you would've seen such. Certainly you can ask around about it.

Nothing I said was about external pressure or anybody telling anything to anybody. It was about an internal sense of responsibility, duty, and honor as to how one approached this game and one's role in it. As I explained, there are *all* types of ways to play, and many different roles. None of which are necessarily wrong, per se. If you choose to fool around, have fun, and frolic... so be it! God bless you, and have at it! That's wonderful, and I'm glad you're here and hope you do so to the best of your ability for the fun and amusement of all! But I hope you also understand that some of us are playing a different game with a different role. Some of us try to pursue the path of feudalism and Chivarly and duty and loyalty with a deeper sense of seriousness and greater (dare I say it) responsibility.

Fun and goofy and fun and lack of seriousness are not the same thing. You can make things all kinds've fun and still take them seriously. Fun is about doing enjoyable things with enjoyable people. It's not about goofy or lack of serious. We continuously strive for and achieve fun. It's the entire basis of our approach. It's why we've grown so tremendously over the past year. But we're also quite serious about some aspects of what we do (not alot... but some). We're serious about our responsibilities to each other, for example. Because we are a team.

Max Von Halstern

Yep, I didn't read deeply enough into your letter. The second explaination did help a lot.

There are plenty of reasons for a decline at Pennsic. I know I had a great Pennsic the one time I went and expect to have a good time next year at Pennsic.

But next year it will be with my family, so even though Maureen and I are heavy fighters, we won't fight in all the battles, if at all. We've got to focus on the kids while we still have kids.

Thank you for taking the time for another explanation.

While locally you've done great work to change the downward trends, the Pennsic numbers and the classified ads here (Stonekeep closing, etc...) seem to indicate a decline in the SCA.

To reverse the trend downward, SCA wide, what would you suggest? You've had success and your opinion is very valuable.

See you on Sunday (mission dependant ),

-Aaron

maxntropy wrote:

Aaron wrote:Without the fun apparently there was a loss of almost 1000 fighters according to Duke Lucan...

I’ve had people tell me I MUST fight in Pennsic battles. I want to tell them to go &&^%^& themselves because they don’t decide what I do on vacation.

Aaron:

Not sure you really read what I wrote. If so, I apologize for the misinterpretation that my failure to properly explain obviously entailed.


Nothing I said was about external pressure or anybody telling anything to anybody. It was about an internal sense of responsibility, duty, and honor as to how one approached this game and one's role in it. As I explained, there are *all* types of ways to play, and many different roles. None of which are necessarily wrong, per se. If you choose to fool around, have fun, and frolic... so be it! God bless you, and have at it! That's wonderful, and I'm glad you're here and hope you do so to the best of your ability for the fun and amusement of all! But I hope you also understand that some of us are playing a different game with a different role. Some of us try to pursue the path of feudalism and Chivarly and duty and loyalty with a deeper sense of seriousness and greater (dare I say it) responsibility.

Fun and goofy and fun and lack of seriousness are not the same thing. You can make things all kinds've fun and still take them seriously. Fun is about doing enjoyable things with enjoyable people. It's not about goofy or lack of serious. We continuously strive for and achieve fun. It's the entire basis of our approach. It's why we've grown so tremendously over the past year. But we're also quite serious about some aspects of what we do (not alot... but some). We're serious about our responsibilities to each other, for example. Because we are a team.

Max Von Halstern

1. That internal sense of responsibility to one's unit/household is a very powerful thing. I knew Baron Jurgen, Max and Sir Guy were excited I was fighting with Ponte Alto this war ( for a least part of it.) They thanked me, numerous times. But I didn't fight for the thank you's. I fought because, in the short time I have been an Atlantian, I have formed an attachment with the folks of Ponte Alto, and regard it as my duty and privilege to swing a stick beside them. Yes, I consider myself a Royalist, and yes, I feel a sense of obligation to the barony as well, but no one demanded I fight for Atlantia this war. They asked.
2. Perhaps we need to look deeper than just pennsic to learn why the numbers are dropping. I think looking at the Baronies, and households is very important as well. How are they recruiting? How are the fighters and the fencers, archers and A&S, bonding together, not just at events, but at practices, activity nights, armouring/A&S workshops? If there are mechanisms in place to bring new people in and/or create stronger bonds with existing members, on a local level, we won't have to worry as much about Pennsic numbers. If people feel the desire to serve their Baron, warleader, or just feel they want do what "everybody else is doing" those numbers will start to creep back up.

Just my .02

I know that Sir Guy calling me up on Sunday with "WILL! Grab your woman, your armor and your tent and get to Pennsic!" made my MONTH good! I still smile about that one.

Even though he knew I couldn't make it, he made the day fun and I really, really appreciate it.

The Ponto Alto group is a good group and a lot of fun. It's just shy of 100 miles round-trip for us to go though.

The Lochmere practice is a lot of fun too and it's much closer. But it is on the same day as my son's Boy Scout meetings, and I'm an Eagle Scout.

The Storvik practice is on Monday and even though we fight DC traffic, it's the easiest to get to. But I get home at 6:05 PM on the train and then have to drive into DC about 1 hour for a practice that is over at 9PM.

If AKO wasn't down now, I'd be putting in my leave (vacation) for Pennsic next year. This year it was turned down -- I was told I was too important to lose at the juncture.

With respect,

-Aaron

PS: I'm still a Royalist, but my kids can be a royal pain the **** and my wife will be royally **** if I ignore them.

Thanks, max I get what you're saying....

so it sounds like to satisfy both camps, we need 1 populace war point battle each day (and I'm counting ex. 3 bridge battles as 1 war point battle), followed by a kingdom sponsored populace non-warpoint battle. This way the "responsible" folks have less "required" battles, and us "irresponsible" folks (I don't mean this in a bad way...) can still indulge ourselves in more large battles (as well as the responsible minded folks can optionally participate as well, of course).

Wednesday would have no populace war point battle, just the friendship castle battle and whatever other tournaments, etc that people want to schedule.

for example:

mon - Wall battle warpoint rez battle, EK/mid vs world field battle
tues - woods battle warpoint, aethelmark woods battle with CA
wed - friendship castle battle
thurs - bridge battles warpoint, atlantia/northshield town battle with rez
fri - field battles warpoint, calontir+allies last stand broken field battle

so 4 required battles for the committed folks and a heck of alot of fun battles for everyone.

This should start pulling in more folks big time. The downside, is there is a need for more commitment from volunteers. So more people need to volunteer.

BTW, except for this year, pennsic attendance numbers have been prettyu steady. So I don't think there's been a decline in attendance, just a decline in the percentage that are participating in heavy combat melees. This year is purely economic and I think will go back up again.

Chris

igelkott wrote:Thanks, max I get what you're saying....

Right back atcha, Chris... and I think you're spot on!

You are exactly correct in that the statistics seem to demonstrate a shift within the structure of Pennsic -- from heavy fighters to those more interested in boggian party activites, archery, rapier, shopping, etc...; and do not indicate an overall drop in Pennsic attendance. However... I'm of the overall belief that organizations are binary -- they are either growing or they are dying -- and that stasis represents the unhealthy side of that equation in an ever-changing environment amidst a growing overall population. Consequently, I'd say that the decline in heavy fighters within a flat Pennsic population is actually a double-negative. Healthy organizations demonstrate growing membership and growing activities, and we should be having growing membership and growing Pennsic and growing numbers of fighters. Just my opinion, of course, but I'm not a big fan of insular organizations that aren't oriented towards the newcomer.

I think that singular "sets" of official warpoint "battles" per day -- where each individual engagement or objective within an engagement (e.g., where every captured flag is a warpoint or where each field battle within the overall "field battles" is a warpoint) with a set of secondary non-warpoint battles and tourneys along with a day-off (except for pickups and classes and such) is, as you explain, the way to go to. Folks really liked having each of the objectives as specific warpoints, as it made it explicitly clear who made a difference or turned the tide for each warpoint and made each of the manifold scenarios within the overall battle "sets" more important. I think this approach would also make the smaller group of "official" battle sets become even more important and thus the center of even more focus, scrutiny, and turnout -- as everyone would be even more certain to try to get out and do their best for those battles.

I personally think it's a good approach that would enhance the "fun" for everyone regardless of their approach to the game or the role they choose to play; would increase the freedom of choice and selection available to folks as the decrease in warpoint structure would increase the number of alternative battles, pickups, fighting classes, and tourneys; but would almost certainly not diminish the amount of fighting going on (I might venture to say it would certainly increase the actual amount of fighting as there would be less waiting for official battles and less holds called by marshalls and more old-fashioned fighting).

And again... I *love* the war, live for battle, and train all year to support King and Kingdom.

In service,

Max Von Halstern

Lucas wrote:I have formed an attachment with the folks of Ponte Alto, and regard it as my duty and privilege to swing a stick beside them.

No more so than we to you. Again... fun, interesting, cool people with good attitude like to hang out... No big shock.

Lucas wrote:but no one demanded I fight for Atlantia this war. They asked.

Keep fighting as well as you have been and you will find it's non-optional. Didn't check the fine-print on that contract, didja? ':lol:'

Lucas wrote:Perhaps we need to look deeper than just pennsic to learn why the numbers are dropping. I think looking at the Baronies, and households is very important as well. How are they recruiting? How are the fighters and the fencers, archers and A&S, bonding together, not just at events, but at practices, activity nights, armouring/A&S workshops?

Shall I assume that was rhetorical, because as I believe you know, the answer mostly is "they aren't"... recruiting that is (and if you don't know, there's an extra space on our Recruiting Committee which is meeting down at Sir Michael's this or next week and could use a young, energetic lad such as yerself -- ask and I'll put you on the Committee and the mailing list). They're mostly internally focused and engaged in their own activities, their own cliques and the way they've done things for the past umpteen years. What recruiting is done is done by our traditional "demo" approach -- often through a happenstance (i.e., non-targeted) manner at places like boy scout or grammar school locations (not exactly prime fighter recruiting venues). Our "ambassadors" are not often briefed on what message we want to get across or even particularly attractive to the populace at large or necessarily articulate. We have amateurish or non-existent literature. We almost never proactively market events or demos or even our organizations, and when we do, the messaging and collateral (material) we develop is again amateurish in nature in comparison to the competitive alternatives. We also provide Chatelaine meetings which often resemble a cross between the Ferris Beuller classroom and a lecture by a Peanuts Cartoon Parent at the not-necessarily most attractive or welcoming home of an "ambassador" who again, might not be the most articulate representative of the Society. Finally, our most powerful marketing tool -- our practices -- are often held off the beaten track away from any possible foot traffic and when newcomers approach, we have no individuals designated and empowered to approach them with open hands and marketing collateral to welcome them into our warm embrace. Instead, they typically have to stand on the periphery and observe and hesitantly try to sneak a word into somebody (not easy when you are trying to approach armed and armored large men).

Needless to say, I think we can do a significantly better job at Recruitment and Retention. Which is why we have our Recruitment Committee and are trying to take a wholly different approach (based on proactive low-pressure attraction and fun and welcoming). It's also why we started the Mundane Socials (where folks can get together and hang-out and do non-SCA stuff together like have parties or go out to movies, etc... outside of a medieval or SCA context). Seems to be working. Particularly well with the women-folk, who are now nearly 50% of our novice fighters (and increasing regularly).

So yes... I fully agree that we need to question our basic assumptions and approaches and try to change things positively. We're either growing or we're dying. I hate dying (pun intended).

Max Von Halstern

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:The real problem is the pressure and the responsibility. The pressure to win (not that big a deal) and the responsibility to train, show up and care when it's time to care. "You just gotta go to the woods battle! You can't take that class, you have to be in the town battle."
I've never taken a single class! I don't have time.

I hear ya there. I would LOVE to have had a day in the middle without war points so I could actually take a class. Seeing alot of my friends the night of Midnight Madness this year.. they looked like zombies. The double rez battle, then my Lady's desire to shop (And buy the heavy things first, so I get to lug them around).

I hope we do have a day in the middle without war points. After three Pennsics, I have yet to see the inside of an A&S tent.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fighting, I really do. But when the battle is a war point, I do feel obligated to fight it. I have never missed a heavy war point yet, but it would be nice to see more of Pennsic. Maybe it is because I only come out for the second week. I will do both weeks next season.

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:Why doesn't somebody create some sort of website where people can anonymously tell the world *why* they don't show up any more?
Some type of letter can be written that could be published in TI, the Kingdom newsletters and all over the web asking

Where did everyone go?

As far as the numbers go, you're never gonna get a handle on it because -as tons of people have already said- the numbers surge and wane from battle to battle.

They can do that here, simply by registering under another (false) name.

Honestly, I thought the schedule this year was fine. Other than the one day with two war points, if I wanted to do other stuff, I could. I had 2 days out of the 5, where I had morning and afternoon fights. The other day was being part of the Allied Champs battle.

My squires know when they join me. I dont care what else you do. But if its a war point, I expect you there. Real life and injuries always come first, but a hang over is not an excuse.

Plus, if I can stay up till 2 or 4 every night, and get my butt up to the battlefield on time and ready to go, so can they.

Will have to admit, I was in the camp, of trying to make numbers even, but after this Pennsic, I am kind of going away from it.

Kind of at the point, I dont care what the numbers are, as long as folks are going to have fun and its a competitive war. Plus like most here, I actually like being on the underdog side, more glory to be had. :p Plus, dont have to kill your own folks just to be able to say you swung a stick. :p

I applaud King Konrad and King Lutr, for a fun war. I was able to say I was tired by the end of it, and had fun, and had a blast fighting against good friends for most of it, and fighting alongside other good friends. And at this point, thats all I want. Though, I still do count points.

I find the discussion interesting. I am a fairly late arrival to this game. This was my first Pennsic, I'm 40 and I didn't find SCA combat until I was 36. I have a few observations of my own I'd like to put forth. First off is that I had a great time. I was up early enough (6-7 AM) to brew a pot of coffee while M'Lady slept in, have breakfast, and get ready for battle. I was busy enough that I was never bored, and went to bed exhausted but anxious to do it again the next day. On top of it all, I was granted full House membership after Opening Ceremonies and took to the field proudly displaying our colors.

Regarding units: For me, fighting has always been about the contest- of man against man, army against army, of me against myself. I was at a personal low point last year when the opportunity presented itself for me to join up with House Bloodguard- I felt I needed to be a part of a unit to become a better fighter, to learn and implement battlefield tactics and strategy. Duke Andreas took me in and the support and fellowship of his House has given me a new outlook. In turn I owe him and my Brothers all I can give. It is my responsibility as a member of a unit. I am proud to say NOT ONE of our House missed a day of battle. It is why I delt with the blisters on my feet after the second day. It is why my first task back at camp was repairing my armor or cleaning my helm. It is why I am looking forward to next year.

I understand the feeling among those who do not belong to a unit, who get a different level of satisfaction from fighting, and sometimes get more from NOT fighting (not just Pennsic, but at events generally). I was once there. I also think the uncertainty of day-to-day numbers from such attrition adds a bit of realism. Real armies suffered losses from death, disease and injury. Why should Pennsic be different?

When explaining SCA combat to people not familiar with it, I try to compare it to football. Two teams take the field in a battle of strength, wills, skills and stamina. Pennsic is like the Pro Bowl and Superbowl combined, where the allies make up the offensive or defensive lines, QBs, Receivers and Tackles. Nobody, though, likes a lopsided game and being greatly outnumbered is not good for anyone. There is little honor in winning by sheer brute, overwhelming force. But a small numerical advantage, or disadvantage, simply means that commanders need to adapt and use their units' abilities. Like the QB who can't throw far but can run like hell, his line needs to make holes for him. The end result is a war that is more fun for combatants and spectators alike.

I applaud what HRM Konrad did. It took courage, and the moral conviction that he was doing the right thing. I believe history will prove him right. I have heard, and read here, many horror stories of battles gone wrong, and this War could have been one of them. In the end, I found it full of Honor and Chivalry, of true sportsmanship.

Hi Max,

I think the extra sleep I got last night helped me understand your words even better.

If we are maintaining equilibrium in our SCA population, but losing our fighter population, how do we reverse this trend?

While I'm in OK physical shape for coming up on 40 years old, eventually I'll start slowing down and fighting less due to not only age but duty to work and family. I'm feeling that now. Yes, that's an impotent whine...

But I'm not alone in having outside duty trump SCA duty. Locally I've met several former SCA heavy fighters at Cub Scout and Boy Scout events. They and Maureen and I still have the desire to come out and fight, but can't make it logisticallly feasible. It seems that we (as in more than just I) are trapped by the binds and chains of our duties outside of the SCA, and can't slip out to fight.

I know that younger people aren't flocking to SCA heavy fighting like they used to, at least in some locations. What is a solution to getting the younger demographic into the sport?

Could we start recruiting in the 50 year old and older category? This isn't a joke! This group is going through a "second childhood" demographically and have more resources to bring to the table as well.

Your insight into the demographic shift at Pennsic was very enlightening and I will follow your missives with more attention to detail rather than just skimming over them. The last one was entertaining!

With respect,

-Aaron

[quote="Saritor"][quote="Aaron"]I like having to shout out your allegiance…
... or “Royal Zombies!â€

This was my first Pennsic since XXV. I have fought off and on in the intervening years, but also gotten married, finished school, got a job, had two kids. All of that got in the way of my going to war.

I had a great war, fought in every battle with no more injury than soreness and blisters. It was an honor to fight alongside my brothers in House Serpentius and the other brave warriors who fought for the East, and across the shieldwall from the flower of the Mid Realm chivalry and their allies.

That being said, I was shocked at how few people there were on the field at Pennsic.

I am not sure what is behind the decline in the number of fighters. Is it the rise in the popularity of fencing? Is it the ageing of the SCAdian population? Do we hit harder now than we did ten years ago, which is scaring some people away from heavy combat? I know that the average level of technique has certainly improved in that time. Whatever the reason, despite loving every minute of the war, I was saddened by the decline in numbers on the field.

Which 'war point' battles could be held on the same day?

thinking a little outside the box.....

Two war points on one day and you have one less day needed
for the other battle.....

Bridges and Broken field/Mountain Pass?

The sides of two bridges become the edges of the larger
'mountain'

Wall/Gate and Field battles?

Clear the wall and you have an open field....

Anything and Castle?

they use different areas anyway....

I was disappointed by the lack of a war point castle battle this
year. As a friendship battle is was late in the week and everyone
was tired and 'since it didn't count' didn't go...

the Woods Battle may want to be a 'one battle that day' battle.

It would require a lot of help moving bales around, but
if that is what everyone would want there should be no
shortage of volunteers....

You now have up to three extra days.....and I do not
think you would be any more tired than we were
after 5 field battles this year.

This would result in less demand on your time on a day to day
level and more 'free' days for all the other things you might want
to do.

see I think you all are ignoring the main problem with the number problems of the SCA.



























we need to recruit more hot women.

Genius.

Ok i avoided this post for a while but figured i may as well throw my 2 coppers into the mess.

Their are several reasons while a war can become lopsided.

One of the Crowns is an asshat and people dont want to fight with him/her

People honoring womans wish before she dies.

One of the Crowns is a kick ass and great guy and everyone wants to fight with him/her.

One side really wants to win more than the other.

Hell the list is about endless on why it can happen. The question in my mind is not so much can we do anything about it but should we do anything about it. For instance in this war was anyone really going to give Lars shit about fighting with Konrad even if the sides were lopsided? If any were thinking of doing so they fail to see the bond they share from the Bloodgard. What would have happened if their was a relationship with Aethelmarc that would have pulled them to the east would that have been unfair? I think not.

As a merc i am often placed in situations were we are outnumbered. We call that a target rich enviroment. Are we probably going to lose? Yep but who cares!!! Its not about winning and losing as much as trying your best. I would rather be outnumbered and get my ass kicked nine ways from sunday and have my foes shake my hand and say "Damn you guys fought like gods today" than allmost anything else in this game.





As for multiple battles in one day. I miss that !! Anyone else remember when there was just ONE field battle then there was some rez battle after? How about cutting the time down on some of the bridge battles to 20 min or so only having 3 of them and having a rez battle RIGHT after. Dont wait 1-2 hours so people can get all stiff and sore, or have to listen to their boyfriend/girlfrind/wife/husband/dog complain they are bored. I am all for more fighting not less. I want to come back from the battle field and be spent, knowing i gave it my all on the field that day.